Help build a youth rifle for cast gallery loads.

[20nickels]

I want to build a bolt action rifle for my kids that will shoot a commercial 90gr .314 SWC or similar cast boolit subsonic from the widely available (usually) .308 case. It would be nice to shoot a 123gr to 150gr (.312) full power load once they are ready to hunt. What is my ideal barrel twist and length. I would like to keep the barrel under 18" but am open to suggestions. Is this a stoopid boolit idea? I'm humble. Tks ahead.

Will probably be a Remington seven or 700 action with a red dot.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/459219/hornady-bullets-32-caliber-314-diameter-90-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-box-of-500
http://www.mcgowenbarrel.com/ssbarrels.htm
303 Caliberhttp://www.mcgowenbarrel.com/picts/303BoreGroove.JPGTwists Available:1-10" (6 Groove)1-16" (6 Groove)1-18" (6 Groove)---------------------------------------------------Cartridges in 303 caliber that we chamber for:7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 39 Match, 7.62 x 54R

[EDG]

Just shoot them through a .308 barrel. If you do not like that size the bullets to .309 and then shoot them through a .308 barrel. There is no good reason to use the odd ball .311 barrel.

[20nickels]

Point taken but what's the ideal twist for .32 caliber 90gr lead?

Also, let me play devils advocate. I don't have time to cast or resize 1000's of boolits myself and many com bloc rifles (.312) do quite well with .308 bullets if factory ammo is desired. This is first and foremost a fun and light weight training rifle that I can reload cheaply at high volume on the LNL progressive press. I considered .223 but bullets aren't cheap and wanted more power on the high end. Saw somebody on here successfully downloading 7.62x54r this way with Bullseye and thought "why not". Reload-able brass is sure more available in .308.

If there are bulk .309 SWC's available and a quality factory compact bolt action with slow twist available it has my attention.

[country gent]

I am assuming your planing on 32 caliber pistol bullets to start with ( swc designation) These could be sized down to .310-.309 with a lee push thru sizer fairly easy allowing for the .308 barrel to be used. I would think with the lighter bullets and low verlocity gallery loads a 1-16 twist would work very well, And allow for the heavier 125 to 150 grn bullet to be used at slightly higher velocities. For a cast bullet only rifle from light gallery to deer sized hunting loads you might consider 7.62X39 cases. Less case capacity to deal with than 308 and factory ammo is available reasonable if its wanted at a later date. If your going to bbuild a rifle for this this cartridge would conserve on powdert the lighter bullets would be very effective in gallery loads and hunting ammo could be put together easily

[Thumbcocker]

Not exactly a response to your original question but a .30-30 single shot or lever with size 0 buck shot or lee soup cans over red dot would fill the bill nicely and be far more versatile. Maybe a youth model .308 with some cases with flash holes opened up and balls or boolits.

[Blackwater]

What he said ^^^^. A TC Encore in .30/30 or .308 could do what you're looking to do, plus, if and when they want to try another caliber, all that's necessary is a new barrel. Most TC owners, I think, have several barrels for their guns, and adding them is chaper than buying a new gun, or even (usually) trading up.

[starmac]

If your set on a bolt action that uses 308 brass (makes perfect sense) why would you want to buy 32 caliber boolits and rebarrel to fit those boolits, when 309 cast boolits are available? I think I missed something.

[20nickels]

Me too. Where? Do they fit the twist? Will they humanely kill small game (flat nosed).

[20nickels]

Kind of like this guy is doing in post #3. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?258844-Reduced-case-capacity-303-Brit-cat-sneeze-loads

My goals; Bulk pistol bullet, piles of available brass, modern rifle with good accuracy. Once sized and trimmed I can knock out 300 rds an hour on the LNL progressive. Just neck size from there on given the low charges. Not counting the brass, should be able to shoot rifle for pistol prices. Being able to reload available high velocity jacketed ammo in the same familiar gun is a huge versatility bonus.

[petroid]

I am also of the mind that a .308 barrel would be a better option. More bullet choices and more bullets available. The ones you linked to are out of stock and who knows when they will be back. Many more options in 308-309 and they are available. There are 115 gr RN bullets that will work just as well as the SWCs you had linked to. Try these http://www.bayoubullets.net/30-carbine-115-gr-rn-500-ct/ I would go with a 1:10 twist. That way you can stabilize up to about 180 grains at subsonic speeds. Maybe even a little heavier

[20nickels]

I am also of the mind that a .308 barrel would be a better option. More bullet choices and more bullets available. The ones you linked to are out of stock and who knows when they will be back. Many more options in 308-309 and they are available. There are 115 gr RN bullets that will work just as well as the SWCs you had linked to. Try these http://www.bayoubullets.net/30-carbine-115-gr-rn-500-ct/ I would go with a 1:10 twist. That way you can stabilize up to about 180 grains at subsonic speeds. Maybe even a little heavier
Okay, I like those! Wished they were flat nosed but very doable and I like the price and the super coat. 1:10 stabilize these or shotgun pattern? I like lead but lets face it boolits are more particular about twist rates than condom bullets.

[joesig]

Me too. Where? Do they fit the twist? Will they humanely kill small game (flat nosed).
You are over thinking the twist. The twist rate is the least of your problems. The only trick you will have is finding the best powder for your loads.

Once you do that, you are set from squirrel to bear.

Get the rifle, Rem 700 Rem Seven. Ruger American etc. If you get one of the better Savages, you can swap barrels yourself. If you really want to go the custom route that's fine but expensive. I would not go crazy building a rifle around a cartridge unless it is something not off the shelf. Say a Rem Seven in 358. The savings of off the shelf will allow you to invest in casting or swaging if you are inclined. Invest being the key word as it will really benefit you in the long run.

I bet if you size the case necks properly (which I would suggest a RCBS Bushing die and an M die just to flare) the Hornady's will shoot fine.

Ditto the use of 0 buck with a pinch of powder.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/
is one source.

[Ben]

20nickels (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?9515-20nickels)




Just how far do you want to shoot ? You can do this same exact thing with a 308 Win. case . You're interested in a 90 gr. bullet, mine is 84 grs. This would be a great training load for a young person with a .30 cal. center fire rifle :

I would also like to cast a vote " against ", a .311 barrel ! !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/004-60.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/005-51.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/004-65.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/007-45.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/002-77.jpg

[petroid]

Okay, I like those! Wished they were flat nosed but very doable and I like the price and the super coat. 1:10 stabilize these or shotgun pattern? I like lead but lets face it boolits are more particular about twist rates than condom bullets.

If a 40gr subsonic 22 works for small game, I see no reason why a 115gr 30 cal at similar velocity won't. Even without a HP or FN. you could probably stabilize that boolit with a 1:14. Faster twist is for heavier/longer bullets.

[20nickels]

20nickels (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?9515-20nickels)




Just how far do you want to shoot ? You can do this same exact thing with a 308 Win. case . You're interested in a 90 gr. bullet, mine is 84 grs. This would be a great training load for a young person with a .30 cal. center fire rifle :

I would also like to cast a vote " against ", a .311 barrel ! !




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/002-77.jpg
Hi ben, Nice shooting! That's close to my goals. Do you know the twist rate of that pistol?


If a 40gr subsonic 22 works for small game, I see no reason why a 115gr 30 cal at similar velocity won't. Even without a HP or FN. you could probably stabilize that boolit with a 1:14. Faster twist is for heavier/longer bullets.
You would be surprised what increased meplat can do for clean kills. I'm hoping this will be a step up from .22lr. Tks for the link! I'm kind of leaning towards Model 7 now, but can't find twist rates.

[RickinTN]

Unless Remington has changed it the twist for a Model Seven in .308 should be 1-12. Like many have eluded to I think you are over-thinking the twist thing. If you can find one and are happy with it buy a Model Seven in .308 and shoot and have lots of fun.
Rick

[Ben]

That's close to my goals. Do you know the twist rate of that pistol?

No I don't .

Some of these T/C Contender experts may be able to tell you.

Ben

[starmac]

Your hoping that the 308 will be a step above the 22 lr for clean kills. I would think it would be a big step with pretty much any decent boolit.

[20nickels]

Your hoping that the 308 will be a step above the 22 lr for clean kills. I would think it would be a big step with pretty much any decent boolit.
To be clear, we are talking about a .32 acp level load here. I'll happily shoot piles of the RN boolit until I find a flat nosed.
Tks for everybodies help.

[Larry Gibson]

A good .308W with a 12" twist (a 14" twist would be better but that's a custom barrel) will fit your needs very well. I've shot thousands of Hornady 32 cal swaged SWC through numerous .308Ws and other .30 cals. I also shoot the Lee cast TL314-90-SWCs which are basically the same bullet that I cast myself.

I do push size the Hornady's to .311 for use in .30 cals though. I use a Lee .311 push through sizer. No additional lube is needed on the Hornady bullets as the Mica stays on, is swaged into the bullet and they shoot excellently with no leading. I lad them in well fire formed .308W cases over 3.2 gr of Bullseye. No filler or wad is needed. I also use dedicated cases which have the primer flash holes drilled out with a # 30 - 28 drill. That prevents the case shoulder from being set back after several firings causing headspace problems. With fire formed 7.62 LC cases I usually get 3 - 5 firings before the neck has to be resized and belled if a .31 M-die is used.....just deprime, reprime, charge with powder and push the new bullet in. The SWCs feed from most magazines where the Hornady and Speer WCs are a single shot proposition.

Larry Gibson

[Artful]

Contender 30 caliber were usually 1:10 twist

[slughammer]

Point taken but what's the ideal twist for .32 caliber 90gr lead?
.............I don't have time to cast or resize 1000's of boolits myself.......

.............I considered .223 but bullets aren't cheap and wanted more power on the high end.........

For full power ammo, the 1:10 twist is best for the 308. Lots of 30-06 gallery load data available for the 10 twist also, so plenty of good reading there for reference.

You may not have time to cast 1000's of little boolits, but you certainly have time to shuck them through a .310 Lee push through sizer. 500-1000 in an hour, with no quantifiable set up time.

223 bullets can be had for about $.08, not much different than the .07 commercial lead. As you said you want more power on the high end, 308 has that.

Bullet availability is just way better for a .308 bore as you move away from the gallery loads to midrange there are some clad bullets and fmj available for mid/upper range practice. When it comes time for hunting, there are probably 20x more bullet designs available.

Sounds like a great project to me.

[20nickels]

Contender 30 caliber were usually 1:10 twist
Tks!


Sounds like a great project to me.
My friends think I'm crazy. I just get blank stares and giant question marks over their heads.


A good .308W with a 12" twist (a 14" twist would be better but that's a custom barrel) will fit your needs very well. I've shot thousands of Hornady 32 cal swaged SWC through numerous .308Ws and other .30 cals. I also shoot the Lee cast TL314-90-SWCs which are basically the same bullet that I cast myself.

I do push size the Hornady's to .311 for use in .30 cals though. I use a Lee .311 push through sizer. No additional lube is needed on the Hornady bullets as the Mica stays on, is swaged into the bullet and they shoot excellently with no leading. I lad them in well fire formed .308W cases over 3.2 gr of Bullseye. No filler or wad is needed. I also use dedicated cases which have the primer flash holes drilled out with a # 30 - 28 drill. That prevents the case shoulder from being set back after several firings causing headspace problems. With fire formed 7.62 LC cases I usually get 3 - 5 firings before the neck has to be resized and belled if a .31 M-die is used.....just deprime, reprime, charge with powder and push the new bullet in. The SWCs feed from most magazines where the Hornady and Speer WCs are a single shot proposition.

Larry Gibson
You are the one responsible for all this! Couldn't remember your screen name. I saw you shooting these through Mosins a few yrs back.

That second paragraph is a wealth of information. Maybe an obvious question but being I'm using a progressive 5 station press if I just neck size and M die at every reloading does that negate the need for drilled out flash holes and dedicated cases? Also, how necessary is fire forming the cases? That will be a lot of shooting with full power loads in a light weight rifle. I was thinking a minimum of 1K pieces of used .308 brass... to start.