.44 mag Henry .432 vs .431 with AA No. 9 load vs SR-4756 Question??

[10mmShooter]

Hi All,

I have been chasing a small leading issue with my Henry .44 BB with 20 inch barrel. Initially I was running a 240 LRN-FP at .430 and was getting a good bit of leading in the first 1-2 inches in front of the chamber, rest of the bore was perfectly clean. Also I was running a Green Dot load at only 1075 fps across the chrony.

So I was a little small in diameter and a bit lite on horsepower

So I have gone to .431 sized and cranked up the power, with the same 240 LRN bullet at .431 (13 BHN alloy)
I ran 16.2 grs of AA No.9 for 1442 fps across the chrony
I ran 9.4 grs of SR-4756 for 1190 fps across the chrony
well these loads almost completely eliminated the leading, its to the point now that it really takes a very close inspection to notice the just a hint of leading in that 1-2 in area forward of the chamber.

So I've got a good mold and have sized some 240g LRN-FP at .432 I would like to get the AA No 9 load down to 14-15 grains, I'm guessing that should get me to 1200-1300 ish fps ?? Should I have any concerns running a .432 sized bullet in my .44 Henry any risk of pressure spikes, that is why I was sticking with a slow powder(trying to avoid any spikes that might occur with a faster powder)

I'm looking for about 1200 fps for a good velocity with .432 bullets and No.9 is my preferred powder, this should have enough punch to seal the bore and finally put to rest any leading issues.

thanks for the input


I

[Enyaw]

Depends on the size of the groove diameter in the barrel. If .429 then the .431 bullet is big enough. Three .001's over groove with a .432 may be tight and give leading.

Bullet alloy makes a difference. LRN means pure lead a lot of times if buying bullets. It could be shot .432 from a .429 barrel without pressure spikes I'd guess since I've trued it n pistol.

Too tight or too loose gives leading.

Anywhoooo..... slugging the barrel with dowel rods and a lead ball and measuring with a caliper or micrometer gives the important groove size of the barrel to know where to proceed to.

Of course the "throat" comes into play also. Too wide fer the bullet and the bullet can cant and lead in front of the throat. You may have been using suitable diameter bullets fer the grooves of the barrel but not exactly right fer the throat. You should measure the throat and try fer a bullet that fights a lil tighter there if compatable with the grooves in the barrel.
If the throat is like so many lever gun throats then the ogive of the bullet is in the lands where there is no throat in the sense of the word throat. You can get fancy and get the first driving band on the bullet just right to center itself in the lead-in at the beginning of the rifling grooves. Put a bullet into a sized and expanded but not flared case and close it in the chamber with the bolt and then measure that for a cartidge length. That will help center the cartridge/bullet in the bore when there's a "lever gun" non-throat.

[Tn Jim]

I wouldn't have any concerns shooting a .432 thru my Henry. In fact, I will be in a couple weeks when I get my new .432 sizer die back. Henry's tech rep told me their bore is .431 and my slugging the bore confirmed that. I don't know what lube you are using, but as long as it's a good quality lube, I bet the bigger boolit does a fine job.

[10mmShooter]

Tn Jim,

That's great info you got from the tech..... I have had my Henry .44 for about 4 months, great gun love it. My lube I use is Red Rooster(still have a stash of it, its not made any longer) and Blue Angel. As noted in the thread, .430 definitely a no go, noticeable leading just in front of the chamber, .431 at 1200 fps better even 1400 fps, but still every so slight leading just in front of the chamber. I'm not worried about my lube it held up at 1440 fps.

Never thought of calling Henry(duh!!)...would have saved my a couple trips to the range with Chrony.

I got my .432 sizer from Buffalo Arms, by my micrometer says it sizes to .4323 so I expect it should work for you too. Based on the responses so far to thread, I think my go to load will be the 15 grains of AA#9, that should run right at 1300fps and 900 ft/lbs of energy. That's plenty for me, I just punch paper at 100 yards. I still may try SR-4756 just to get the load correct, 10.5 grs should also run 1300 fps with my 240 gr LRN-FP, the mold I'm using in the Accurate Molds 433-240A, I have another thread about it, its great they drop at .433-.434 easy to size back to .432. My two Saeco's molds just would not drop any larger than .431. So I had to go with the custom mold.

TnJim what loads are going to run?

[osteodoc08]

I luv me some #9. I'd recommend the .432 boolits and load up some with #9 and work your way up to your accuracy sweet spot. Velocity without accuracy means nothing. I've never seen a dead critter complain about a few FPS.

[Enyaw]

TnJim has the right idea. Check with the manufacturer and "confirm" with a slug.
Never heard of a 44Mag with a .431 groove diameter.

I always have to know the groove diameter in a rifle I have. Eccentric old man or not I gotta know that number......especially with lead alloy.

I'd want to know bout the throat area in the chamber too. Cerrosafe does that well for a chamber cast. It's not all in the groove and bore. The size the brass ends up and the cartridge length makes a difference. Those dies Meacham Tool sells with the different size bushings are handy. The case neck gettin too tight on a larger than normal 44 bullet because of SAMMI spec. dies(which have different size neck expanders) can lead to what I've seen in factory ammo where the bullet can't get in straight because the neck is too small. There will be a slight bulge on one side of the brass even with the bullets base showing a "canted in the brass" bullet. Look at the finished cartridge in the right light and it can be seen if it's not readily apparent at first glance.

The Easy Seater fron Meacham Tool gets the bullets in straight so they enter the rifling straight cutting down on leading at the beginning of the bore. Anywhoooo...sizing fer a proper neck tension where a bullet can enter the brass straight can be important. Different makers of the dies make for different sized brass and different size brass necks because of different size neck expanders.

The way the bullet seaters of standard dies have tolerances and depend on the bullet seater stem shape to help center the bullet to go in straight and have plenty of loose space between the bullet and the die walls the bullets aren't supported and centered in the dies real well. Standard dies don't guarentee the bullet is perfectly straight(not canted a little) in the brass.

That means the bullet enters the bore a little canted and can loose some lead alloy on the way in trying to straighten out. The bullet gets deformed alittle.

Anywhoo ifin I had a rifle with .431 grooves I'd be considering a .433 bullet with the higher pressure loads. I'm not afraid of the gas checks neither. I'd try them if the leading doesn't go away with the larger diamer bullet.

[Tn Jim]

Enyaw, from what I have read, a .431 bore is common for a 44 mag RIFLE, but a revolver is .429-.430.

10mmShooter, I have had mine since last September. I didn't do a lot of load development for it then, and quadruple bypass surgery this past March put everything on hold for a while but here is what I have.

A Lee 240 grain swc/gc cast from coww and air cooled. Lube is LBT Blue soft and sized to .431 because that was the biggest sizer die I had at the time. Mag brass, Winchester LPP and 2400 powder. Started at 17.5 grains and went up in half grain increments. 19 grains was the magic load with a 1.5" 5 shot 50 yard group. There was no leading with the gas check, even at .431. Finding load info for the Lee boolits is near impossible, but I'm guessing 1500-1600 fps.

My other 44 boolit is a Lyman #429421. It drops at .429 so it would lead like mad in a .431 bore. I tried to cycle a few that I had loaded for my Ruger SBH, but it was a no-go. The Henry is picky about cartridge OAL, and the Lyman makes the loaded round too long. It should work just fine with 44 Special brass though.

I should have my .432 sizing die and mold back soon. Erik@hollowpointmold is opening the sizer and the Lyman mold up to .432 for use in my Ruger. The Lee boolit drops at .433, so sizing to .432 will be easy. I'm curious what it will do in the Henry, but at the same time, my current load is accurate with no leading. You know what they say about something not being broke.

Keep me in the loop on what you find. I've wondered about AA9 powder myself. Finding any right now would be the trick.

[DougGuy]

Does Henry adhere to SAAMI specs for their .44 barrels? The .44 magnum is the only caliber where the specs for rifle and the specs for pistol are different.


Rifle:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/44RemMagRifle_zpsbb7ce0be.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/44RemMagRifle_zpsbb7ce0be.jpg.html)

Pistol:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/44RemMagPistol_zpsa96a71b0.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/44RemMagPistol_zpsa96a71b0.jpg.html)

[Enyaw]

One thing I don't know....if I did once I fergit it. Do the dies fer 44 mag come in ,"pistol/revolver", and then also ,"rifle",????

If the chamber specs by SAMMI are different for rifleand pistol chambers I'd thunk the dies would be a little different too. Just don't know if there are such a thing as 44 Mag rifle dies.

One thing I know....in my lever guns I like to have a min. headspace so the breech bolt closes tight on the case head and helps straighten it in the chamber so it sits centered to the bore and get the first driving band just kissin up to the lead-in to the lands to center the bullet to the bore.

That's not so good fer black powder but is alright fer the smokeless powder that doesn't foul so much.

Just like the crown to the muzzle has to be perfectly concentric to the bore the bullet and it's case should be as concentric to the bore as possible so the bullet goes in centered. I figger the lead alloy stays on the bullet better when entering the rifling when things line up well where a coupla .001's means a lot.

I don't fire form my brass fer using smokeless powder and a lever gun but wonder if I should. I figger the cartridge would still chamber easy enough.

Anywhooooo.......I've never seen too many 44 mag bullet moulds that cast .431-2-3 size. They all custom fer the larger than .429-.430 size?

Things sure can be complilated at times. I gotta thunk this out.:bigsmyl2:

[10mmShooter]

Hi Enyaw,

Same dies for rifle and pistol in .44 mag, RCBS does make a set of "Cowboy" dies, which have a more generous expander, and the seat/crimp die is a 1/1000th or two larger in diameter to accomedate fatter .430+++ bullets which in turn increase the cartridge diameter, they would scrub in normal die. I have the RCBS .44 cowboy dies because my Redding seating die is bit snug for seating and crimping a .432 sized bullet, it will do okay but the sides of cartridge scurb and scuff as it enters the die.

As for molds, heres my Accurate Mold 433240A, they actually drop at .434 and I size back to .432, Tom will make anything you want. I believe NOE also produces nice custom molds too. You get your sizing die custom from Buffalo Arms (.432) in my case.


123161

[10mmShooter]

Range report for Sat Dec 13th.

We have success, with the new mold and sized to .432 my Henry was flawless today, I ran 100 rounds through it today and the barrel is absolutely pristine no leading, no leading :) :) :)

Running the .432 sized bullets was definitely the trick for it.

I chronographed two new loads today both with same 240 gr .432 sized LRN, 15.0 grs of AA#9 runs 1330 fps, 34.15 SD and 153 ES(ouch) @ 40 degrees ambient, 950 ft/lbs of energy, brass ejects and still drops in a .44 case gauge, primers show no flattening at all. Charge is so lite that brass has signs of blow by from the brass not fully sealing the chamber,(yes I know AA9 like to a full charge hence the high ES). Next trip I'll go up to 15.8 grains of AA#9....should bring me in at 1400fps then

Next was 11 grs of SR-4756, 1320 fps, 16 SD, 69 ES @ 40 degrees ambient, primers show no flattening at all, brass ejects and still drops in a .44 case gauge. This load is definitely a keeper.

I'll be checking for accuracy on the next range trip, all I had time for today was to run them across the chronograph.

[OuchHot!]

I recall having success using magnum primers with AA9 but it was very cold conditions. I seemed to get less blow by and better es.......It is a moot point for me now as I have been out of AA9 and unable to find it.

[DougGuy]

If I had that BB I would not hesitate to try 2400 in it. 2400 is THE go to powder for .44 Magnum and it performs well with heavies too. Most really good loads are a combination of factors that sometimes can be explained, other times they just leave you scratching your head as to why they work but they do.

Would a BB feed these 310s?

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg.html)

[10mmShooter]

Doug Guy

The Henry, will feed 250 gr K-SWC at 1.610 but is touchy about them, the shoulder hangs up and the cycling is not smooth that's why I run the LRN_FP now, The profile on the pic up posted would likely cycle fine, my concern would overall length...from you picture, I'm guessing you are pushing 1.650-1.700 in COAL ??

[DougGuy]

Right at 1.690"