First batch of defense rounds, what quality control do i need to do?

[mallen]

I know its a bit of a noob question . but what should i be watching for. i measured the powder by hand. checked that all of the primers are seated fully. length is good. no cracks or holes in the brass. the bases of the brass did not seem to be misshapen.

what else should i be looking for to make quality ammo?

[5Shot]

I would buy defense ammo...but that's me. You could load equivalent for practice, but I don't know of anyone who makes their own PD Ammo.

[Dan Cash]

Mallen,
Your loading practice sounds good, just be certain that they ammo will chamber. After that shoot them a lot to proove your practice and ensure that you do not have a failure rate. If you do have failures, it is up to you to decide if the rate is too high or not.

5Shot,
Your circle of associates must be extremly limited if you, ".... don't know of anyone who makes their own PD Ammo." I load my own and am happy with the results and confident in the quality of the ammo. Amongst my circle of hand loading friends, I don't know any of them who buy ammunition for personal defense.

[jmort]

I would and do make my own defensive ammunition. Careful attention to detail like you are doing and then randomly pick 10 or 12 out of 50 and shoot them. If all the random rounds fire, I would have confidence in the remaining ammunition.

[country gent]

On PD ammo a plunk test for semis and simply insuring it chambers freely in a revlover also might be a good idea. For the plunk test pull the barrel from your pistol and use the chamber to insure rounds drop in freely and fit. A gage can be purchased for this but there may be slight diffrences between the gage and your chamber.

[5Shot]

Mallen,
Your loading practice sounds good, just be certain that they ammo will chamber. After that shoot them a lot to proove your practice and ensure that you do not have a failure rate. If you do have failures, it is up to you to decide if the rate is too high or not.

5Shot,
Your circle of associates must be extremly limited if you, ".... don't know of anyone who makes their own PD Ammo." I load my own and am happy with the results and confident in the quality of the ammo. Amongst my circle of hand loading friends, I don't know any of them who buy ammunition for personal defense.

Well...I make concealment holsters for a living, but you are free to do what you wish.

Defense against something with teeth...well that's another story.

[mallen]

i tried shining them up in my stainless tumbler. no newfinish so it didnt come out as shinny as i had hoped.

all rounds fit both pistol barrels

[mallen]

what exactly is plunk test?

[jmort]

Do it chamber? Drop round in chamber. A kind of go, no go test.

[mallen]

bullets dropped into the chamber with barrel out. i had a couple not want to feed with me cycling the rounds by hand. not sure if its me or not.

[fredj338]

I'm another that buys quality SD ammo. In mot loads, better bullets & powders than what is available to the reloader. If you must, then use once fired brass form your gun. Triple check everything, then case gage for final inspection as well as check in your bbl/cyl.

[Blammer]

so I took the cylinder out of my revolver and tried to drop the ammo in the barrel, it just wouldn't fit.... I don't think this plunk test is any good.

:bigsmyl2:

[mallen]

hmm. seems one jams per mag...

doesnt want to go up the feeding ramp. could this be from making hollow points which are a little on the short OAL length? still within spech, and work great on my round nose range ammo. first time with the hollow points. i shot 3 into bilistics gel so far.

[DougGuy]

I do NOT carry handloads on the street. Whether they could or could not use it against me in court is not the question. This is NORTH CAROLINA. Where the State Police here are the most powerful organized crime family on the Atlantic seaboard. If they can't get something on you, they will PUT something on you to give them a conviction by hook, crook, or otherwise. I am NEVER affording them the opportunity again. Ask me how I know this..

mallen just go buy you a couple boxes of +P hollowpoints and be done with it. The less you know, i.e. the dumber you appear in court, the better off you will be.

[Wayne Smith]

How long have you been reloading? What has been your general failure rate for all causes? Failure to chamber, failure to fire?

This is my equasion for evaluating my ability to make defense ammo. I have a <1% overall failure rate and a 0% failure rate for my .38 Special ammo, my carry caliber.

I have been loading 45 years.

[mallen]

go on

[mallen]

iv loaded around 5k rounds. only major failure iv took out to the field i think is a squib i got from apparently no charge.

[Wayne Smith]

hmm. seems one jams per mag...

doesnt want to go up the feeding ramp. could this be from making hollow points which are a little on the short OAL length? still within spech, and work great on my round nose range ammo. first time with the hollow points. i shot 3 into bilistics gel so far.

What are you shooting - caliber and gun? If I was shooting an auto and had one jam per mag no way I'd be carrying that ammo. I'd buy!

[5Shot]

You are experiencing a minimum of 12% failure rate right now. Most people (that I know in the industry) want 200 trouble free rounds of SD ammo (all from the same Lot#) through the gun before they declare it fit for carry. 200 rounds of SD ammo is expensive, so say 50 even. You need to run 7-8 trouble free mags through gun before you can even consider it for carry. My carry gun is a P30 9mm. I don't think I have ever had a failure to chamber or fire in that gun and it has like 2500 rounds through it.

[mallen]

9mm fn fns

so every time its the next to last round loaded that is jaming. i grabbed another mag and it works perfectly. so it looks like iv got an issue with my mag.

[mallen]

ok. after the first few mags now its doing the same.... number 13 out of 14 rounds wont feed. im confused on this one now.

[5Shot]

Hand cycling or live fire?

[mallen]

hand cycle

[knifemaker]

Ditch that mag and get a new one. I am going to be honest with you and I do mean to insult you. Based on the questions you are asking you should not be reloading and carrying your reloads for self defense. Your life is more valuable then spending a few bucks for quality factory defense rounds that your can depend on to SAVE YOUR LIFE. I have been reloading for about 40 years and I was a certified law enforcement firearms instructor. In the past I have carried my own ammo for self defense. All that ammo was made using new factory cases, no reloaded brass, and quality control steps taken to insure reliable accurate ammo. I very seldom do that now and buy factory self defense ammo. You should give it some serious consideration as you do not need to have doubts about your ammo when shots are fired in anger and your stress level is at it's highest.

[mallen]

its doing it on another mag as well. most of the time. i added a round and still, next to last round wants to jam. its confusing to me. i wont be carrying this ammo till i figure it out. all i can think is it doesnt like the short rounds. being that these are shorter than the round nose i make. those work perfectly. so ill make up some that are a bit longer. see how those do.

[5Shot]

I'm pretty sure he meant "I don't mean to insult you"...could be wrong though.

Hand cycling won't give you the real picture, and repeatedly chambering rounds can cause setback and a KB. You should be firing them at the range.

That said, I agree with knifemaker.

[mallen]

i thought about that, firing to see how they do on that wise. there is a chance they would work, but the way i figure it, if there is any issue at all, period, they shouldnt be carried. so ill carry the factory loads till i get it absolutely perfect.

they do run perfect in the s&w shield. although im sure thell be shot at the range before that gun actually gets carried.

[5Shot]

Hand cycling isn't function testing...way more physics going on during live fire. I wouldn't use that as my go/no go criteria. Many guns don't do well with hand cycling but function 100% during live fire.

[mallen]

I understand. my fns has always functioned perfectly cycling by hand. the shield you have to be careful with or it doesnt go into battery by hand.

like i said. these will stay at home till i can make some new ones that work better.

[Geezer in NH]

I would buy defense ammo...but that's me. You could load equivalent for practice, but I don't know of anyone who makes their own PD Ammo.I trust my own loads better than the factory's. Mine all have flash holes and no upside down primers.

[Forgetful]

Mallen you should buy a pack of wolff springs for those mags, and lap/polish the inside of the mag to allow the follower a smoother slide. This solves 99% of the "round 13 always jams" and the like. Jams are almost always attributed to the magazine. So if you're carrying, you should want the most reliable magazine you can find.

[mallen]

ill look into it, thanks for the advice

[truckerdave397]

All of my self defence ammo was bought on sale. No body can pass up a good sale.

[mallen]

All of my self defence ammo was bought on sale. No body can pass up a good sale.
I make ammo for about 10 cents a piece

[Digital Dan]

I build better ammo than factories, 10 times out of 10. Never had a failure to fire or squib from my handloads with one exception and that was a new/old gun that needed a new firing pin. Can't say the same about factory fodder. With that said I haven't a clue why I should trust my life to somebody else that assembles ammo.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you are really worried about this then maybe buying Factory Ammo is a good idea. It's usually pretty good except for Rimfire nowadays.

You can load your own and then look at each one and ask yourself,,, "will I bet my life on this one?" The only acceptable answer is yes! or else you shouldn't use it.
I load pretty good ammunition and I know how to fix a malfunction of a pistol in a Flash. I won't have any problem using my ammo for defensive use. In fact that's all I have for defensive use at home.

I personally think a more valid question here is "Are you willing to kill someone?"

If you aren't willing to kill someone at the drop of a hat, and haven't already figured out what would trigger that response if you decided to, then maybe this conversation is Mute.

If you have then I would get real good with your carry gun. During this familiarization process you should be able to deduce if the gun and ammo are reliable enough to bet your life on, and you should also be learning how to fix it if it fails.

Any ammo that goes bang with a reasonable degree of certainty is more than adequate. I don't care how good your ammo is or how nice your gun is there is a chance that it won't go off. if it doesn't you need to fix it fast.

I was in a man on man shoot at a Front Sight rifle class. My gun did a double feed after a failure to extract on the very first shot of the first stage. However so did the other guys gun. I had my gun cleared in less than 5 seconds and won the stage. He had not even finished clearing his gun before I was done shooting. I won 4 successive stages before I got beat fair and square on the last stage by an 28 year old fresh out of Afgan. 2nd out of 60 wasn't bad. Only problem was,,, there wasn't a 2nd place. He was just faster than me.

The point of this statement is not about me, it's about you. If you think that there is any ammo or gun that is 100% reliable,,, Think again. The point is you have to run what you brung. Ya kinda need to win the drag race too, no matter what happens out of the hole. There isn't any 2nd place in a real gun fight.

An alternative is to not show up at the gun fight at all. Avoidance is the best defense. Being aware of your surroundings and completely avoiding confrontation is key to survival.

Where I live in CA you would have to decide what you are willing to go to jail for, because if you shot someone,,, unless it was a clearly witnessed self defense situation chances are you'd be going to jail.

I chose avoidance over carrying a gun in public. If things get much worse I might change my mind.

This is my .02 on this subject. YMMV.

Randy

[country gent]

The "plunk test" is using the pistols actual chamber to lightly drop the ammo into and seeing if it chambers / seats fully under its own wieght. On a pistol the barrel is used or a revolver the cylinders chambers are used, The tightest one if you know which one that is. Most semi autos dont feed the same by hand as being fired due to recoil, flex, slide intertia speed. Magazines that feed are thing to be cherished ones that dont need to be worked on to insure they do. Comparing a good one to the one not working as to feed lips angle, radious, length. Mag bodies finish and warps, dings, sticky spots. Springs tension, dia and form. Also that front is front and back is back. Followers fit finish, angle, radious or form. Any diffrent drag feel can make a difrence. Keep in mind from full to last few rounds angle of the cartridge can change slightly. Trouble shooting a magazine is alot of diffrent issues that replacement is sometimes better. Mark the ones that are issues and use for practice they may "break in and become reliable. But if you drop and damage one that isnt always reliable its not a big issue..

[knifemaker]

Thanks 5Shot, I did mean, "I don't mean to insult you". Glad you picked that mistake up and corrected me.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

PD rounds are varied for me depending where the weapon is to be used....yes I make my own. Depending on where you live, if you should need to terminate some jerk that really need it....you might want to use factory ammo, in case some smart SOB lawyer might want to accuse you of making "Killer" boolits, don't laugh it happens....:groner:

[Rick O'Shay]

Its a good idea to number your mags. If you start having issues with a particular mag you can correct the problem.

[fredj338]

hand cycle
Tells you nothing. Guns are made to run at speed. The only way to now for sure is shoot it. My min is one full mag, each carry mag. I it's 100%, then I am gtg.

[fredj338]

I trust my own loads better than the factory's. Mine all have flash holes and no upside down primers.
Never seen such poor qc in high end sd rounds. Cheap practice ammo, yeah see poor qc all the time.

[dragon813gt]

PD rounds are varied for me depending where the weapon is to be used....yes I make my own. Depending on where you live, if you should need to terminate some jerk that really need it....you might want to use factory ammo, in case some smart SOB lawyer might want to accuse you of making "Killer" boolits, don't laugh it happens....:groner:
When has it happened? Please site case numbers. Last time I checked the factory makes killer bullets as well. At the end of the day if you shoot someone you will end up in court. Make sure you have a good lawyer.

To the OP, have you fired them yet? If not then none of what's being discussed matters. Hand cycling tells you nothing. And repeated cycling could cause the bullets to set back and now you have the potential for an over pressure situation. Go shoot them and report back.

[Petrol & Powder]

For the OP:
First : Go back and read post # 36. There's a LOT of very good free knowledge contained in that post.
Second: Guns and ammo carried for self defense must be 100% reliable. To evaluate that reliability you must test One gun with One type of ammunition. It's a system: gun, ammo, shooter.

Third: Factory ammunition is actually pretty good these days. Well designed bullets that feed in most action types and reliably expand at the anticipated velocity, low flash powders, corrosion resistant nickel plated casings that feed well in dirty chambers and sealed primers that resist contamination.
You can duplicate most of those features or you can just buy a few boxes of factory self defense ammo and shoot enough of them that you are satisfied that they reliably function in your gun. After that, you can dedicate your time and money to producing cheaper practice ammo that is similar to your purchased carry ammo.

As for the aftermath in court, that horse has been beaten to death a few times over but I will remind everyone that there are TWO arenas that you must consider and they are very separate arenas: One criminal (you vs. the government) and One civil (you vs. someone else).

Who made the bullet and who assembled the cartridge is never as issue in a criminal case. Why deadly force was used is the central issue in a criminal case.

Who made the bullet and who assembled the cartridge shouldn't be an issue in a civil case but you have the ability to make that choice before the event. You have no control over that choice after the event.
Act as you see fit.

[kryogen]

I would buy quality commercial ammo and use that.
might be 50$ for a box of 50, but let's face it, you will never shoot it anyway, and if you do, then 1$ a pop wont matter.

You sure CAN handload it, but seriously, I wouldnt do it for this purpose.

[mallen]

You can load your own and then look at each one and ask yourself,,, "will I bet my life on this one?" The only acceptable answer is yes! or else you shouldn't use it.


This is why I asked, so I know what to look for, how to improve. If I cant rely on my ammo, then ill carry factory, which im doing now, until my knowledge is enough I can rely more on my ammo than factory.



I personally think a more valid question here is "Are you willing to kill someone?"


Iv dealt with this before deciding to carry



If you have then I would get real good with your carry gun. During this familiarization process you should be able to deduce if the gun and ammo are reliable enough to bet your life on, and you should also be learning how to fix it if it fails.


Any ammo that goes bang with a reasonable degree of certainty is more than adequate. I don't care how good your ammo is or how nice your gun is there is a chance that it won't go off. if it doesn't you need to fix it fast.


Iv done, and will continue doing training on this, for that reason.



An alternative is to not show up at the gun fight at all. Avoidance is the best defense. Being aware of your surroundings and completely avoiding confrontation is key to survival.


Best advice of all



Where I live in CA


you have my sympathies



I chose avoidance over carrying a gun in public. If things get much worse I might change my mind.


For what its worth, I understand that the chances of having to pull a weapon in america is slim at best, i know folks who never have had to. the kicker is that IF you do have to, the consequences are dire. In comparison, much better chance of getting into a car accident, but you usually live through a car accident. but getting shot, while it rarely happens, you usually end up dead if you get shot.




This is my .02 on this subject. YMMV.


Randy

[mallen]

one thing that I failed to mention is that part of why I want to use my own loads is because i can use cast bullets which are far superior to anything else out there. the load im using now will penetrate 11-12 inches with perfect expansion. i havnt seen any factory alloy hp that has the quality expansion that cast has. and of course. every round i load will have a perfect charge, and flash hole properly drilled.

I made some new ones. still on the short side, but lengthened to just at the top of the lube groove. I must have had a short bullet, had to reject one as it was just under the groove. but with the added length i was able to cycle with no problems.

iv got a few extras, may take them to the range tomorrow.

I have a quesiton about +p loads. some say its extra powder for beyond spec pressure. some say its a marketing gimic. which is it and how would I go about working my loads to be equivalent?

thanks yo.

[Petrol & Powder]

11-12" penetration in WHAT?

A 124gr FMJ will easily penetrate 11" of ballistic gelatin, water jugs, etc. Often more.

There are several excellent bullet designs for 9mm but I'm not convinced that cast bullets are superior to jacketed HP's in the self-defense world of the 9mm cartridge. I'm not a gelatin junkie and I think penetration is important, expansion is just the icing on the cake. Expansion gives a smaller diameter bullet more frontal area but it also reduces penetration in the process and sometimes it reduces retained weight (further reducing penetration). The bullet has to get deep enough to reach something important. I'm not advocating FMJ as a defensive round but expansion takes a back seat to functioning and penetration. Speer Gold Dots, Federal Hydro shocks, Winchester STX, etc.; all do a good job of retaining enough weight to penetrate more then 10" AND reliably expand. They work well at their intended velocities and feed in most semi-autos.
I have ZERO issues with using a cast lead projectile in a revolver for SD but in a semi-auto that needs to function perfectly 100% of the time I'm going to lean towards a Jacketed Hollow point. If you can consistently do that with a cast lead bullet, have at it. For SD work in a semi-auto, I'll buy JHP's and they'll probably be part of a completely assembled cartridge when I buy them.

[fredj338]

one thing that I failed to mention is that part of why I want to use my own loads is because i can use cast bullets which are far superior to anything else out there. the load im using now will penetrate 11-12 inches with perfect expansion. i havnt seen any factory alloy hp that has the quality expansion that cast has. and of course. every round i load will have a perfect charge, and flash hole properly drilled.

thanks yo.
I submit you haven't tried many of the quality jhp like the hst. Far superior to any LHP, especially if you have intermediate barriers to get thru. Don't get me wrong, I love lead bullets & would use my own lhp in sd ammo if needed, but your reloads are not superior to high end factory. No ones are. Flame on.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/45-215gr.jpg.html)

[Petrol & Powder]

No flames, just agreement.

[mallen]

when a jacketed hollow point expands, it splits. the good ones like hst expand and split evenly. that is due to having thinner material. full lead is thicker needing no jacket, so when it expands, it doesn't split, and you get much more surface area of the bullet, which translates into more tissue damage, and a larger hole. it might not penetrate as much as there is more surface area being pushed against. but this is nothing that can not be overcome by a higher charge or tighter crimp. likely more consistently with charge rather than crimp, but thats just a guess. all i know is manufacturers go tight on the crimp so they can use less powder. mine go 11.5 inches in ballistics gel.

brings me to the previous question. how exactly are +p rounds different?

[mallen]

all be it, this is a small difference. even between larger rounds of the same jacketed hp, the kill rate is still statistically the same. so a better expansion of lead will make a small difference. ultimately, shot placement is the deturmining factor

[mallen]

another question.

it was mentioned someone only uses new brass. what is the downfall of using previously fired brass?

[exile]

I am certainly no expert, but I do have a few thoughts. While I would probably not use handloads for self-defense, I think this is a useful discussion as ammunition may be hard to find someday.

I would certainly work up a load using fired brass, but would then use new brass for carry ammo, maybe Starline.

I have a S & W Shield and it has been very reliable, although 99% of what I have shot through it has been cast boolits, not hollow-point factory ammo.

From what I have read, the Shield does not like +p ammo or 147 grain hollow-points, although I am too cheap to confirm either statement. Also, from my searching, I understand Wolff does not make magazine springs for Shield mags yet.

What I would like to do is develop a 147 grain cast hollow-point defensive load and see how it works out. If we can talk someone into doing a group buy mold like that.

exile

[mallen]

i guess im confused on the new brass part. iv never had a round jam when the case cracks. but i am new, why i ask.

[Petrol & Powder]

when a jacketed hollow point expands, it splits. the good ones like hst expand and split evenly. that is due to having thinner material. full lead is thicker needing no jacket, so when it expands, it doesn't split, and you get much more surface area of the bullet, which translates into more tissue damage, and a larger hole. it might not penetrate as much as there is more surface area being pushed against. but this is nothing that can not be overcome by a higher charge or tighter crimp. likely more consistently with charge rather than crimp, but thats just a guess. all i know is manufacturers go tight on the crimp so they can use less powder. mine go 11.5 inches in ballistics gel.

brings me to the previous question. how exactly are +p rounds different?

My first inclination is that you already know it all and I'm not sure why you're asking.

But on the off chance that I'm wrong and you really want some information: a +P rating is standard set by SAAMI that involves higher pressures than the normal limits for a particular cartridge.
In the days of 38/44 revolvers and cartridges marked High Speed (HS) or High Velocity (HV) there where no industry wide ratings so a 38 Special cartridge that was loaded to higher pressures than a standard pressure 38 Special, just to use an example, could be whatever the manufacturer wanted it to be. The HS and HV markings meant more pressure but it wasn't real clear how much more. The +P rating and related head stamp was an industry standard set by SAAMI [Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacture's Institute]
For the 9mm Luger cartridge the difference is 35,000 psi for the 9mm and 38,500 psi max for the 9mm +P.
There is also a +P+ rating for some law enforcement 9mm loads.

The practical differences in actual velocities between 9mm and 9mm +P are not as great as the spreads found in other cartridges, such as the 38 Special. This is mostly due to the lower pressures that the 38 Special operates. The 9mm is a high pressure cartridge and the velocity differences are not as profound between 35K and 38.5K psi of the 9mm and 9mm +P as they are between 17K and 20 K of the 38 Spl. and the 38 spl. +P .

So the answer is the allowable pressures are higher with a +P rating but the 9mm starts relatively high to begin with. It is interesting to note both rounds have projectiles of .355" and .357" and bullet weights roughly ranging from about 110-160grs. It's easier to push a 115 gr 9mm faster than a 158 gr 38 Special but if we up the pressures to .357 magnum levels the velocities and energy of the .357 magnum easily exceed the 9mm. There are a lot of variables and it's easy to get lost in the numbers/math/gelatin tests/and tea leaves. Actual performance is what matters and that is a whole different discussion.

[country gent]

Neck splits are normally on brass thats been loaded more than a couple times. while jams are unusual do to this the shot is seldom in the group due to neck tension issues. It also can cause issues if cracked when feeding alowing bullet to set back easier. Use newer brass only once fired or so perferabl;y fired in your gun for that gun. A very good complete inspection of cases for neck dings bulges scrathes and or anu other issues. Cases shouuld be lightly trimmed and chamfered to maintain consistent crimps and shape. Loads should be meticulosly checked for poeder wieght present charge and no double charges. Bullets seated into cases with uniform pressures to uniform depth. You might even consider crimping in a diffrent step from seating. Also keep in mind some softer lubes in hot weather can soften further and contaminate powder charges. Exposed lubes hold dirt and crud. Another thing to keep in mind is most of the jacketed hollow points are desighned to peel back and have sharp edges to cut more tissue. From bullets I have seen recovered from animals the modern HP is very effient in its performance. Penetration levels can be a blessing or a curse. even in self defense situations you are responsible for any bullet you fire until it has expended all its energy. A pass thru that hits a car house or heaven forbids an innocent bystander you are responsible for. Energy expanded beyond the target is wasted energy also. A bullet that gets to the vitals and stays in the target puts all its energy into the target ( one of the things that makes some of the frangible bullets so effective, every foot pound of energy is dumped into the target). In a self defense situation you dont get to pick a safe direction or back stop to fire into.

[Petrol & Powder]

And by the way. The casing is the same between standard loads and +P loads, the difference is the head stamp (marking) not the actual construction of the casing.

[Avery Arms]

You should only consider carrying new ammunition never reloads, making your new ammunition at home is something to consider but most people don't have the experience or tools to match the quality of premium factory ammunition. For one ammo companies can adjust their loads for each new lot of powder and find out exactly what performance (pressure, velocity, consistency) they are getting here and now rather than relying on data collected twenty years ago on another lot of powder and often with a totally different bullet, casing and primer. Also they often have better designed seating dies/stems built for one specific bullet and manage to get those bullets seated straight every time without bulging the side of the case as the bullet goes in.

Anyway if you are going to do it make sure to get new brass and check your loads very carefully with a case gauge and a good set of micrometers to make sure they are all in spec, if any are out of spec I would consider the entire lot unacceptable.

[hickfu]

I cast my own and reload, I have never had any issues with my reloads through any of my handguns and I would feel very comfortable using them as SD bullets. My first mag will always be factory SD rounds though and I load mine to hit the same POA as the factory at 25 yards so there shouldnt be a problem if I ran out of FSD rounds and had to use my own.

[charlie b]

Before you think about lead HP bullets being superior have you tried them in all the different materials?

Like fire them through several layers of denim, leather jacket, fleece linings, down, etc before the bullet gets to the ballistic gel?

Father and I did a lot of testing of HP bullets quite a few years ago and found that we could not "beat" most of the factory stuff. We tried any number of lead HP designs. The 'factory' HP molds were the worst. About all you could count on, if the bullet was soft enough, was a bit of mushroom like a plain soft point bullet. We did end up with one lead one that worked ok. Basically we copied the cavity design of the Winchester Silvertip. We ended up being close to performance of that round. But not better and in some cases worse.

So, please test yours throughly before thinking it is better than a factory bullet.

Me? I carry factory SD stuff.

[fredj338]

another question.

it was mentioned someone only uses new brass. what is the downfall of using previously fired brass?
The thought behind using once fired brass is you know the case is sound. I woud never load hunting or sd rounds in unkown brass.
as noted, +p is higher pressure ammo, most of the time higher vel. Without at Least a Chronograph & some understanding of pressure signs, trying to develope +p loads is dicey.

[mallen]

thanks.

seems all thats left to learn is how to work up loads to higher pressures.

[mallen]

The thought behind using once fired brass is you know the case is sound. I woud never load hunting or sd rounds in unkown brass.
as noted, +p is higher pressure ammo, most of the time higher vel. Without at Least a Chronograph & some understanding of pressure signs, trying to develope +p loads is dicey.

exactly

[country gent]

Keep in mind +p, +p+, or upper end loads wear firearms much faster than standard loads, due to increased recoil pressure levels. With out a chronograph and knowing pressure sighns or a actual pressure set up guessing at pressure can be iffy. It can be done and is but misreading can reult in loads that may not always be safe. I have loaded rifle and pistol ammo for years ( wore out 2 308 sizing dies so far). I was a NRA High Power rifle competitor, bowling pins, ispc, and bullseye. Loading ammo has been the wau I could compete since the mid 70s. Quality ammo is alot checks and testing. You have to pay complete attention to every detail and be as consistent as possible with each step. The powders used in factory ammo are seldom readily available to reloaders as the companies buy a large lot and test thru closed bomb tests and pressure curves of the lot to determine the correct charge for the correct pressures and performance. As reloaders we dont have access to this equipment to insure every aspect of performance.

[mallen]

guessing at pressure can be iffy.

well, thats why i want to ask and read. i don't want to be guessing. not dangerously. so far what i gather is work up loads slowly till you see pressure signs, then back off.

call me a noob but this doesn't exactly seem quite right to me. for one, +p+ would not give pressure signs? or those rounds use special cases and primers? my firearms can not take +p+, and i would rather work up the loads without going over 38500 psi. course, using the number doesnt mean much without a way to actually test. so what would be the proper way to work up loads and velocity for a guy like me?

[Catshooter]

mallen,

Here's what my SD ammo goes through.

I only use once fired brass, that way I know without looking that the flash hole is there and the primer pocket is the correct size to hold the primer.

I inspect each primer for compound and anvil. I have found one Winchester primer without much compound in it, another primer from that box failed to fire and it was the primer. I have also had a Winchester 44 mag factory primed case with a primer upside down.

My RCBS equipment allows me to see the powder fall, so I know there is powder in each case.

I use a Lee Factory Crimp die for crimping.

After completion, the ammo is stacked primer up in a 50 round plastic box. I check for equal overall length and that there is a primer. In my experience priming is often the weakest link in anybody's loading machinery. Plus I can't see it done on my press so I check to make sure it's there and seated deeply. I run my finger slowly over each primer.

Then I seal using George & Roy's Primer sealer.

Then I plunk test.

Good luck.


Cat

[Love Life]

well, thats why i want to ask and read. i don't want to be guessing. not dangerously. so far what i gather is work up loads slowly till you see pressure signs, then back off.

call me a noob but this doesn't exactly seem quite right to me. for one, +p+ would not give pressure signs? or those rounds use special cases and primers? my firearms can not take +p+, and i would rather work up the loads without going over 38500 psi. course, using the number doesnt mean much without a way to actually test. so what would be the proper way to work up loads and velocity for a guy like me?

If you're firearms can't take +P+ loads, then the proper way to work up to those loads is not to...

I've read this whole thread. I'm not trying to be mean, but you need to go buy some ammo for carry and then continue to work on your reloading.

[mallen]

mallen,

Here's what my SD ammo goes through.

I only use once fired brass, that way I know without looking that the flash hole is there and the primer pocket is the correct size to hold the primer.

I inspect each primer for compound and anvil. I have found one Winchester primer without much compound in it, another primer from that box failed to fire and it was the primer. I have also had a Winchester 44 mag factory primed case with a primer upside down.

My RCBS equipment allows me to see the powder fall, so I know there is powder in each case.

I use a Lee Factory Crimp die for crimping.

After completion, the ammo is stacked primer up in a 50 round plastic box. I check for equal overall length and that there is a primer. In my experience priming is often the weakest link in anybody's loading machinery. Plus I can't see it done on my press so I check to make sure it's there and seated deeply. I run my finger slowly over each primer.

Then I seal using George & Roy's Primer sealer.

Then I plunk test.

Good luck.


Cat

thanks for the info, what would it look like having some but not enough primer compound?

If you're firearms can't take +P+ loads, then the proper way to work up to those loads is not to...

I've read this whole thread. I'm not trying to be mean, but you need to go buy some ammo for carry and then continue to work on your reloading.

its time for me to start learning how to work up my loads anyway, whether i carry or not.

both my carry guns are +p rated. so that is my goal to get to. if i can find out how.

[DougGuy]

both my carry guns are +p rated. so that is my goal to get to. if i can find out how.

It's very simple really, you go down to your local gun shop, and BUY SOME +P AMMO! Buy enough to sight in with, buy enough to "function test" your loaded magazines at least 2x/year, and learn your reloading but you are making a big deal out of carrying reloaded ammo for defense and you are making it much more difficult than it has to be. You need a chrony to check loads with for one, and you need LOTS of range time, and you need to take notes on every string of fire, this is a research project. Not something you want to stake your life on. You seem to have great difficulty SEPARATING the two.

[Noah Mercy]

SAAMI does not have any listing for "+P+" loads, and if you look at the ballistics for factory loads claiming that they are "+P+", they are the same as legitimate +P loads which are SAAMI listed. So either the "+P+" designator is a gimmick, or the bullet and powder choice the factory uses are driving pressures beyond SAAMI +P to get the same performance. Either way, I recommend steering clear of anything claiming to be +P+, regardless of your firearm.

I load 454 Casull ammo with cast boolits for anti-bear use when I hunt, but I use the J word bullets for self defense against two-legged vermin. I do load my own SD ammo, but after over 3/4 of a million rounds loaded with zero failures (commercial loaded for a indoor gun range for a couple years), I am confident in my ability to produce reliable loads. For SD ammo, I always start with NEW brass, use low-flash powders, load to at least 85% of max (this minimizes the chance of squibs or misfires due to extreme low temps and also results in lower extreme spreads), use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, and press check each and every round for semi-autos (press checking ensures that the bullets will not be pushed back into the case under recoil) and use a kinetic puller to check crimp and neck tension for revolver cartridges. My ammo feeds and functions in any firearm of the appropriate caliber, even if it has a match chamber, and there is minimal chance that a bullet will migrate and tie up a cylinder or drive up pressures. Finally, I pull a random batch of ten out of every 100 and chronograph them to verify velocity and consistency.

Honestly, I put a LOT of time and effort into making my own. Buying off the shelf would be much easier, and not much more expensive. On the flip side, my ammunition is matched to my firearm, and I have the utmost faith in its performance. Confidence in your firearm and ammo is very important to a defensive mindset.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mallen: One last bit of .02 from me. You are farting around with a 9MM for SD, but if you are really concerned about performance then I would look at a .40 or .45. and preferably the latter.

The .45 ACP round with a 230 FMJ bullet has been the most successful Self Defense Round in history with more than 100 years of use in combat. The only advantage that the 9mm has over the .45 is that it is cheaper to shoot. period.

This extends to Cast Boolits as well. A Cast Boolit from a .45 is more effective on ANYTHING than a cast boolit from a 9MM. This is simply a case where size matters.

My .45 is a Glock 21SF. it has around 3000 rounds thru it. Exactly 2 were factory +P rounds and we could not see or feel any difference whatsoever in the power or point of impact. The rest of the rounds fired thru that gun have been my Reloads using Range pickup brass, Plated 230 gr ball style boolits and 5.7 gr of W231, all loaded on my Dillon SDB.

If I was so inclined I would have no issue whatsoever fighting with this gun and ammo. It is reliable, and I can fix it in less than 2 seconds if it malfunctions, (I can't remember if it ever has?) and I came to the realization along time ago that getting shot with anything will ruin your day! However getting shot with a .45 will most likely end your day. This concept has been proven over and over in battle and on the street for 100+ years.

My whole point here is that rather than pursue this 9mm performance thing which has so many variables and is going to be marginal at best, I would look at getting a gun with a bigger hole in the barrel.

You could be confident that any load you chose would work perfectly and do everything you ever wanted.

If you are really concerned about reliability then a Revolver in either .44 or .45 cal would be the most reliable and lethal combination there is. Once again any load will do and if one fails to go off, then you just pull the trigger again. Any doubts about this could easily be dispelled by simply watching a Jerry Miculek video on YouTube.

This is definitely a place where size matters, and bigger is always better.

End of my .02

Randy

[mallen]

9mm - 45 has the exact same lethality rate. 80% on the first shot, 90% on the second shot.

but, if i was carrying 45 (honestly if i was going to do that i would carry .50), I would be in the same position that I am in now. I want to learn how to safely and properly push max pressures. not simply for self defense, but for range time, and if nothing else, learning how, and learning everything that goes with it.

so far it seems all i can really do it get a chrono and look for speeds, rather than pressures.

[rosewood]

I do NOT carry handloads on the street. Whether they could or could not use it against me in court is not the question. This is NORTH CAROLINA. Where the State Police here are the most powerful organized crime family on the Atlantic seaboard. If they can't get something on you, they will PUT something on you to give them a conviction by hook, crook, or otherwise. I am NEVER affording them the opportunity again. Ask me how I know this..

mallen just go buy you a couple boxes of +P hollowpoints and be done with it. The less you know, i.e. the dumber you appear in court, the better off you will be.

How can the police prove you handloaded? All you have to say is you bought them at a gun show.

[mallen]

my question is why would they care? hand loading is not a crime.

[fredj338]

well, thats why i want to ask and read. i don't want to be guessing. not dangerously. so far what i gather is work up loads slowly till you see pressure signs, then back off.

call me a noob but this doesn't exactly seem quite right to me. for one, +p+ would not give pressure signs? or those rounds use special cases and primers? my firearms can not take +p+, and i would rather work up the loads without going over 38500 psi. course, using the number doesnt mean much without a way to actually test. so what would be the proper way to work up loads and velocity for a guy like me?
Unless we are talking 9mm, no such thing as +P+, no specs for it. Often designating say 40+P, is just marketing hype for achieving higher vel. Again. w/o pressure equip, your totally guessing pressures.

[fredj338]

How can the police prove you handloaded? All you have to say is you bought them at a gun show.

Well, lying to the police after a shooting is never a good idea. The merits of using handloads over factory have been argued for decades. Just remember, there are two things going with EVERY shooting; the criminal end & the civil end. You may very well win the criminal end easily, handloads or factory wont matter, but the civil end could cost you dearly. I won't give a scum attorney any add'l "ammo" to convict me in a civil trial, & there will be a civil trial.

[Forgetful]

So, you kill a thug with a good brand of death, and not a home-made brand of death. Their ads are about how effective their ammo is at stopping your attacker. Maybe this is a litigious way of enabling corporate greed.

[Catshooter]

Mallen,

Just look at the primers and compare them to each other. The one I have seen that was lacking showing compound from say 12 to 3 or 4 o'clock, then from 3 or 4 back around to 12 there was nothing there. Empty space. I couldn't see under the anvil of course and I wasn't about to try and take it out but I didn't need to: I'd see enough.


Cat

[W.R.Buchanan]

The whole debate about using Handloads only matters to a Lawyer coming after you with a bogus charge.

The analogy could be,,, What's is worse? Being ran over by a 56 Chevy, or a rebuilt 56 Chevy.

Randy

[Forgetful]

The whole debate about using Handloads only matters to a Lawyer coming after you with a bogus charge.

The analogy could be,,, What's is worse? Being ran over by a 56 Chevy, or a rebuilt 56 Chevy.

Randy

What's worse, a lawyer coming after you, or a thug who has just been shot 6 times by a .38 revolver and is still coming after you? Why aren't we treating lawyers the same way we treat thugs?

[mallen]

Mallen,

Just look at the primers and compare them to each other. The one I have seen that was lacking showing compound from say 12 to 3 or 4 o'clock, then from 3 or 4 back around to 12 there was nothing there. Empty space. I couldn't see under the anvil of course and I wasn't about to try and take it out but I didn't need to: I'd see enough.


Cat

thanks yo.

last question.

erm. probably not "last", but anyway. Should I use bullet and primer sealer?

[TES]

I read the first page and that was it....so...if I am repeating info already posted I am sorry.....Do not even attempt to load PD rounds until you have loaded and shot at least 25000 rounds. Even then you will only have real data on the small batch you have run for those components...every time you change one thing it is a complete start over until you reach 25 thousand again...I still have the first 25 round box of ammo for pd that I bought new with my gun in 2003. Yes it is pricey but It's not going to kill you / get you killed.

[country gent]

reading pressure sighns from fired cases/ components is an accepted practice but iffy at best. Changes in manufactering materials ( while slight do affect them slightly). Reading primers flattening is subjective at best. I have had some lots of factory ammo severly flatten primers and other lots were fine same ammo diffrent lot number. A chronograph can offer an idea of where you are at but not an absolute proof of pressure levels. Measuring case head expansion in rifle rounds give an idea but I dont think most handgun rounds pressures will cause this head expansion. On a semi auto watching ejection patterns of factory ammo compared to your reloads gives an estimate. Flattened primers, hard extraction, and other sighns all help but keep in mind when they show up manuals tell you to drop back so sighns are actually already over pressure already. A good manual, experience, and good judgment along with common sense is required here. Start at a known safe load and work up from there shoot some factory ammo and watch the diffrent sighns results and work from there.

[mallen]

so unless i find a book showing +p pressures, im out of luck. estimating based on speed is about the best ill get.

which maybe is sufficient. after all velocity and size is a good representation of energy.

[Catshooter]

Mallen,

I would use sealer on the bullet/boolit if I could figure a good way to do it.

I use sealer on the primer. In the late 90's I threw three of my 9mm reloads into a Tupperware container full of water. Ninety days later all three shot normally. I still seal 'em, just like I use Marine cups in my Glock even though I never intend to fire it under water.

I want every edge I can get.

I have no pressure testing equipment. For my Glocks I just use known loading data and measured velocity. Not concerned with pressure, especially in my Glock 19. What 9 are you using?


Cat

[mallen]

fn fns 9mm

[pretzelxx]

Why not just pour toxin in the hollow points? If the shot don't kill em, the poison will!

JK, you'd need a really good lawyer for that one. But i thought about it and i cant see myself using a reload for self defense situations. I will spend a good amount to make sure the round functions fine in my pistol and carry what I've shot with. Not that i doubt my loading capabilities, but i like factory testing.

[mallen]

Factories cant test for missing flash holes, missing primer compound, missing powder. which seems to happen a heck of a lot more than i would have thought when i started carrying.

[mallen]

Back to factory rounds, since i shot all my defense reloads. They shot well. took 500 rounds, but i think i fixed my issue shooting a couple inches high

[TES]

Oh and I learned this this past weekend....the best PD round will not save your butt if it isn't chambered when drawing on somebody! Got back to the room and found that I had not chambered a round after a rather scary incident with a drunken bumb. Carry L & L

[mallen]

saw a video recently of a guy sitting in a lobby while another guy robbed the place. guy walks in, tries to walk out, first guy grabbs him, when he struggles the criminal goes for his gun, as did the man. accept, the man had to try and hide behind a chair and rack his slide. by then, he had been shot.

ya know. im thinking i might have to try and sell this noe mold. its a great mold, but, the bullet design wont let me make a very long round. so iv either got to modify the mold or sell it and buy one from accurate.

I want to learn how to make the perfect round for my gun, part of that is customizing the oal to the chamber.

[Catshooter]

mallen,

I like the Lyman 356634. Mine drops at 140 grains, nice big flat meplat. The mould is discontinued, of course but eBay will turn one up every now and then.


Cat

[mallen]

I may be looking for a new mold, or finding someone that can modify my new noe mold. the bullets are too short for my liking.

[tazman]

I may be looking for a new mold, or finding someone that can modify my new noe mold. the bullets are too short for my liking.

Which NOE mold are you using?
I have read through this thread twice and can't find mention of it except for it being a hollow point.

[fredj338]

so unless i find a book showing +p pressures, im out of luck. estimating based on speed is about the best ill get.

which maybe is sufficient. after all velocity and size is a good representation of energy.
Vel tells you little about pressures. I can KB a 9mm with a 147gr @ 800 or run it @ 1000fps w/ safe pressures. It's all powder dependent.

[fredj338]

Factories cant test for missing flash holes, missing primer compound, missing powder. which seems to happen a heck of a lot more than i would have thought when i started carrying.

Never seen any of that with premium JHP ammo. Sure, cheap bulk practice stuff, all kinds of errors.

[mallen]

Which NOE mold are you using?
I have read through this thread twice and can't find mention of it except for it being a hollow point.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=1055&osCsid=fd5v0fknmh21i5qivlta58enh7

I think i would like a bullet that has no grooves. that way I can make the bullet custom sized to my chamber. more accuracy and reliability that way. there are other things that can be done. i just don't know what yet.


Never seen any of that with premium JHP ammo. Sure, cheap bulk practice stuff, all kinds of errors.

some guys on here have. iv not been in it long enough to go through many sd rounds

[Love Life]

The grooveless boolits are really intended for PC or HI-TEK coatings. I have shot some just tumble lubed with LLA and they were fine, but they were all sticky and gross...

A benefit of the grooveless boolits is increased bearing length which showed a tangible accuracy benefit over a traditional grooved boolit in the same weight and caliber.

[mallen]

The grooveless boolits are really intended for PC or HI-TEK coatings. I have shot some just tumble lubed with LLA and they were fine, but they were all sticky and gross...

A benefit of the grooveless boolits is increased bearing length which showed a tangible accuracy benefit over a traditional grooved boolit in the same weight and caliber.

45/45/10. great lube that doesnt get gunky.

the length and accuracy is what im wanting to get. i do powder coat my bullets.

[mallen]

what else do you do to get the best accuracy? wouldnt the rest simply be the charge amount?

[Love Life]

Best accuracy is subjective. Circa 2012, 7 yards (21 feet for those who want it to sound farther than it really is) became the defacto range for definitive accuracy testing of pistol ammo...across the internet.

For best accuracy it is a combo of things. Working up a load ladder (not a ladder test) of 10 rds per charge and shooting from a rest at 25 yds will show you best accuracy for yourself, pistol, and loads as long as you can be consistent.

For pistol cartridges I use the SAAMI and reloading manual OAL in conjunction with the plunk test. I want all the rds I load to chamber in all the firearms I have that caliber in.

Anywho, back to accuracy. I trim brass for consistent crimp (consistency being hand in hand with accuracy), I throw powder charges from either a chargmaster or a Dillon powder measure on my progressive.

Work up from start charge up to the max charge and shoot test groups for each load increment. Pick your best groups and reshoot them on another day to verify. Once you are happy just lock in your dies and load a bunch of them.

Oh, and cast good boolits...so they say. If it sort of resembles the cavity in the mould then I'll usually load it for a pistol.

[mallen]

thanks yo