Forming an AI case ?

[Wayne S]

I see two ways to blow the shoulder out and form an AI casel
1. Take the Max listed charge of a powder for the base case, seat a J bullet so it jams into the riflings when the action is closed, and fire

2. Take a fair amount of a fast pistol powder ** fill the rest of the case with COW,oat meal,??, seat a culled cast bullet so it jams into
riflings, and fire


** case in question is a 223 AI, and I'm thing of 10 gn. of Unique

[texassako]

It was not a .223, but I went a slightly different route. Seated a jacketed bullet out to the lands and used a parent case H-4895 starting load. H-4895 can be safely downloaded(parent vs. AI space) and I did not need to worry about a bullet in the lands giving to high a pressure spike.

[5Shot]

For an AI you just load and shoot. The neck juncture on an AI is in the same place as factory, so you don't need to jam the bullet. The shoulder does its job. The idea was that you could still shoot factory in a pinch.

[Nobade]

Please don't do #2 with a bullet in it! The charge by itself makes plenty of pressure to form the case. You'll likely be sorry if you put a bullet on top.

5Shot is absolutely correct if the rifle is made correctly. The case should be fully supported at the neck/shoulder junction and form correctly when standard loads are fired. However, a lot of "gunsmiths" do not understand how Ackley cartridges work, and set the guns up too loose. A standard cartridge loaded into an Ackley chamber should produce quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt. It should be quite difficult to close, to the point of the bolt knob leaving a dent in your palm. Once fired, the resulting case should chamber easily and feel normal. If you don't feel this resistance with a factory round your rifle is too loose and it's going to stretch the cases at the web when you fire them. Usually that's not a big deal, thousands of rifles are used every day that are like this. But it is not right, and that's not a proper Ackley chamber.

-Nobade

[tomme boy]

Jam the bullet. It will prevent case stretch in the web. And it will happen if you don't. To what extent depends on your chamber.

[white eagle]

fire a factory round in the ai chamber wa la ai case

[Stephen Cohen]

Both my brother and I have .375 whelens the Improved versions, both will head space on a standard 30/06 shell. My brother just opens 35 Whelen brass to accept correct projectile and loads. I use the cream of wheat method, and interestingly I made 100 new shells last week out of 270 Win shells and they are great.

[GabbyM]

Hello Wayne. Good to see you again.

first do you have the firearm to check head space yet?

If you do have a loose cut chamber. Correct way, as in reliable, is to expand neck out a little then size leaving a step to head space onto. You may own a neck turn tool expansion mandrel that will be large enough. Or just take a 6mm expander button. Spin it up in a drill then stone and sand it down to desired size.

I cut my Ackley chambers to minimum so cases close snug when closing the bolt. All have been 243 AI in bolt guns. I bought a box of factory loaded ammo just to use as a check when cutting my chambers. In addition to gages.

Couple things I learned.
1st is if the brass isn't brand new it's a great idea to anneal the necks and shoulder else issues arise. Not just splits but it's to hard to form out well.

2nd. Fire forming brass from cream of wheat blanks must be the most boring thing to do in Illinois. So I ordered a 6mm mold just for fire forming AI brass. ha ha now about all I shoot in the rifle is cast boolits.

3rd I think you have figured out. Use Unique to get the pressure up with a still accurate shooting cast boolit to form out the brass. 10.0 grains of Unique is a little stiff. would be way hot if you also used the COW filler. I only use 11.0 grains in my 243 AI under an 87 grain Saeco that has a tapered front band that loves to be set into the rifling to sort of double down on the tight bolt closing. Because why not. It's plenty of pressure at something over 33,000 CUP.

You shouldn't have any problem getting brass in 223 to close snug in any 223 AI chamber that's remotely in tolerance. If brass is loose in your AI. Just fire it in a 5.56mm NATO chambered gun. Then size it to fit snug in your AI. But even an average 223 SAMI chamber should do.

Really the only people who have to do all that are ones who cut an Ackley chamber in a standard chambered barrel without setting the barrel back. I can see that as an option in something like a break top pistol.

[triggerhappy243]

ANDY! should I even elaborate on this one?

[Wayne S]

GabbyM,
Thanks, I had forgotten about expanding the neck and forming a false shoulder, unfortunally , I don't have anything in 6MM, maybe there is a 107 SMK laying around in a junk [pulled bullets] bullet box.
Looks like I'll pick up a bottle of MAPP gas because all my brass is 1 X, at least I'm using Rem. and not WCC/ LC.
I'm guessing this bbl {14" TC Contender} is a tad loose as some of my brass has been FL sized and the action closes with no resistance or marks at the neck / shoulder area.

[triggerhappy243]

you can buy a tapered 6 MM expander ball for your sizer die.

[GabbyM]

Yes Wayne that’s your glitch. Your brass has already been FL sized down.

I never used MAPP gas for annealing. Although I suppose it would work really fast. I just place a propane torch next to a one pound metal coffee can half full of water. Place a case up to the flame and twist in my fingers. One rotation dada dada Jane two rotation dada dada Betty three rotation dadada deehow betty drop it hot and drop. If you burn your fingers you waited way to long.

I could send you some annealed cases. Gratis

BTW the marines in HMLA 167 really appreciated the cigars you sent to Iraq. Timing was good too as the work was hard. I only found out a couple years later you didn’t get a thank you. Deal is his mother is a widow and I’m the guy who moved in. Thus I’m a poison pill. Sorry about that. Sorry to say it’s still a broken staff. He did hand them around to his entire crew in the shop. Where great satisfaction was had by all.

[dh2]

fire a factory round in the ai chamber wa la ai case
The idea of the AI case thing is they are easily form by firing factory ammo in them and you have a fire formed AI case, and you can use factory ammo if you do not have any hand loads when you need them .
an AI case is a lot easier to form than some thing like 9.3x62mm Mauser from 30-06

[Nobade]

I'm guessing this bbl {14" TC Contender} is a tad loose as some of my brass has been FL sized and the action closes with no resistance or marks at the neck / shoulder area.

And this is why only bolt actions should ever be made into Ackleys. If the chamber is cut properly, a break action should not be able to close on the parent case. Even worse would be to take a standard barrel and make an Ackley in the same caliber out of it. That couldn't possibly work correctly and you would have to go through all sorts of gyrations to make cases for it. In that case it's not an Ackley any more, it is a unnamed wildcat that only you have.

Triggerhappy243, I hear ya there......you know all about this!

-Nobade

[Bill in Ky]

With the 223 based cases that I have wildcatted, I drop 10gr RedDot and tamp one square of toilet paper on top. It works fine for me...
my $.02

[fredj338]

Max loads wedged into the rifling, not needed or desired. I load 2gr off my regular AI load into the parent case & have it just kiss rifling. That way I get some useful target work out of the process. The COW thing works too, just messy.

[olafhardt]

Just a comment. I read this post thinking it was talking about aluminum (chemical symbol Al). It took a few replies before I caught on that it was Ackley Improved (AI).

[oldlincoln]

I have had good luck forming improved cases by firing 5gr Bullseye held in place with a wad and filler. I have used newspaper for wadding and polyester fiberfill, cream o' wheat and grass seed for fillers with NO bullet. After firing this forming load a medium load with junk j-words completed the forming with virtually no case loss. It should be said that this is with bolt action rifles headspaced to just close on a new factory case. A piece of rice paper ( Zig-Zag thin rolling paper) stuck to the back of the case should keep the bolt about half open. So far my experience has been with 280 Rem AI and 22-250 AI. Out of about two hundred cases, one 280 case split on the shoulder/neck.
Good luck and keep an eye on the cartridge headspace as you reload.

[Blackwater]

The problem that you find with AI's is that not every one made is chambered right. To be "right," as I'm using the term here, the bolt should close with some mild resistance when you chamber a factory load or the equivalent. This alleviates the necessity of jamming a bullet into the lands to prevent case stretching just ahead of the web area, and setting up subsequent case separations. Guns reamed with a tad too much headspace have to use the jammed bullet to prevent this, and the best way to find out is to try chambering a factory round, and if the bolt closes freely and without some "feel" as it's closed, you need to use the jammed bullet technique. I have a .35 Whelen AI, and it was made using factory cases, and I don't have to worry about jamming the bullet in it, but you never know. Some cases - even brand new ones - may be a smidge short on the headspace for YOUR gun, and might need to use the jammed bullet technique. If the bolt closes with some "feel," you're good to go, and a max load for the parent round is NOT necessary. Most any reasonable load will do, down to starting loads.

I recently helped a buddy convert some 7mm. Rem. Mag. cases to 7mm. Weatherbies using the cream of wheat method. IIRC, we used 8 or 9 gr. of Unique, and they worked very well. This ain't rocket science, but it does call for a little rationality and thought and testing in YOUR gun to make good cases that'll last. It's all about fit of the parent round in YOUR gun.

[Nobade]

If you want to see something illuminating, pop a primer off using a factory made case (or pulled factory round) and see how much of it is sticking up after it's fired. That is how much excess headspace you have. After building an Ackley rifle with the recommended .004" of crush I tried it and was amazed at how much was sticking out. So as an experiment I started cutting the shoulder of the barrel to increase the crush and kept firing primers in new brass. Once I got to .010" crush it started supporting the primer correctly. That makes for quite a difficult bolt closing, but always makes perfectly formed cases. This is how I do all Ackleys for customers now, and never had a complaint - quite unlike the many loose chambers I get to fix for people.

-Nobade

[leadman]

Most rifles, especially military surplus, can shorten the case causing excess headspace by just pulling the trigger on an empty but primed case. This is why the primer sticks out of the case.
IIRC Ackley used standard headspace specs when rechambering from a standard to AI case. I'll reread his books and confirm that.
As far as break actions not working properly when rechambered to AI I have several now and had others and had no problems at all. Just make sure to use a stout enough load to form the case as Ackley recommends.

I have had more issues with recent new brass like 30-30 Win and 7mm Rem Mag that are short from the base to the shoulder. It is bad enough with the 7mm Rem mag. that if it is not fireformed with COW the case only lasts for a couple of loads, splitting just above the belt. Doesn't seem to matter who made the cases either. I do use the tiniest amount of case lube on the upper part of the case so it will stretch while the lower part grips the chamber walls. If you can see the lube it is way to much.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

...snip
I'm guessing this bbl {14" TC Contender} is a tad loose as some of my brass has been FL sized and the action closes with no resistance or marks at the neck / shoulder area.


And this is why only bolt actions should ever be made into Ackleys. If the chamber is cut properly, a break action should not be able to close on the parent case. Even worse would be to take a standard barrel and make an Ackley in the same caliber out of it. That couldn't possibly work correctly and you would have to go through all sorts of gyrations to make cases for it. In that case it's not an Ackley any more, it is a unnamed wildcat that only you have.

Triggerhappy243, I hear ya there......you know all about this!

-Nobade

Well, this is interesting.
Long ago, I bought a TC contender rifle at a auction. The barrel is stamped 223rem. the first time I shot it, what the HEY ? it's an Ackley Improved.
I always wondered why, when I was forming brass (I would just load my normal 223 load with J-words) that the action was quite tough to close...now I understand.
I never got great accuracy out of it with J-words, so I never tried boolits. It has become a safequeen, as it's been about a decade since I've shot it.

[AZ-JIM]

The reason for the bullet seated long and jammed into the lands is to keep the cartridge head tight against the bolt face. It keeps the brass from streching from unwanted areas to fill the voids, and rather ensures the pressure is used to reform the unsupported shoulder area and gives a more consistent repeatable result. Imagine the difference between stamping sheetmetal and hydroforming sheetmetal. I have used cast to fireform brass with good results, aprox. 70% case fill of a slow end powder for the cartridge in question and a mid weight boolit. Actually got decent accuracy too. Your mileage my vary....

az-jim

[HangFireW8]

I was about to jump in with my usual "true AI cartridges should have a little crush" lecture but you all beat me to it!

Some other case forming tips. Make sure the chamber is very clean and if rough, polish it gently. Lightly oil the top 1/3 of the cartridge, so it flows instead of grips as it forms. I prefer stiff loads of medium burn rate rifle powders over pistol powders and fillers, as I get less incipient headspace separations that way. I'm not saying pistol powders won't work, just that it has been simpler for me to find an optimal case forming load with a good stiff medium rifle powder load.