Push thru sizer

[btroj]

Finished a push thru sizer for the 375 today. Only took me 4.5 hours! I figure it must be worth 250 dollars or more if my time is worth a damn.

I can see why Theperfessor sells blank sizers, not finished ones. The time is in getting the final hole drilled, reamed, and polished to the correct size.

Guys, buy from Buckshot, don't get a lathe. I need to make another 500 of these for myself just to get close to breaking even.

[geargnasher]

Pics or it didn't happen.

Now is that break-even point at $250 a pop or $25? :kidding:

So I take it you're not ready to start filling custom orders yet for 25 bucks apiece? Perfesser Keith's push-through conversions are outstanding and had many machining processes done to them that made them very versatile with catch bottles, etc. I didn't want any of that, but the base die is still shipped with a bunch of extra parts, all with hours of design, machining thought, and production time behind them all...and I got in on the first batch that were even professionally finished with a shiny black oxide. I can't remember what I paid, but it was something like $65 shipped and included my choice of four calibers of push rods. I took one look at his prototype picture and jumped in on the buy, there was and is a lot of value there for what you get from a one-man (at the time) operation.

Gear

[btroj]

Keith has experience I can't even dream of and some automation I can't afford. Well, chose not to afford. He is also a heck of a guy to give me the help he has. I can't think of a guy I would rather have as a prof, he is a heck of an educator.

[btroj]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/15AEDE07-3166-4754-B9A5-8B7FA587A23C_zps2wohs9m4.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/15AEDE07-3166-4754-B9A5-8B7FA587A23C_zps2wohs9m4.jpg.html)

The scratches on the top are from the ViseGrips I used to get it threaded into my press. I used a lock ring to check thread fit on the lathe and it was fine but in the press it was snug the first couple goes. It has since loosened up and it is great now.

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/A6F2BE7F-E263-4412-A48E-A5F6BA55223D_zpsqiurapua.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/A6F2BE7F-E263-4412-A48E-A5F6BA55223D_zpsqiurapua.jpg.html)

Notice the scratches on the left most bullet. It was after drilling and reaming but before any polishing was done. I wanted to check size before I polished anything. I also needed to see how much more I needed to back bore to minimize the length of the sizing portion on the die. If you have much over 1/2 inch of sizing length it becomes difficult to push bullets thru. Took me a couple of recuts to get the right length.

I have a .379 die for my Lyman that actually sizes to .3798. I got a .375 reamer so I can try some different diamters, I think .379 is too fat for the rifle really. This one finished at .3776. I will make a few more, maybe in the .3765 and .3850 range.

Cost is based on what my employer says I am worth per hour. I'm making one for the FIL for Christmas, I can tell him I spent way too much on his gift.....

[RED333]

Your time aint worth nothing when you are learning.
Now when you get to selling, well them your time is priceless!!!
Do you have any thread files, they will help in the last bit of fitting threads.

[btroj]

I need a thread file. I need lots of tooling. My wife commented on the number of boxes around the house from Enco.......

The lathe was cheap, it is the dang drills, reamers, and what not that add up fast. Now I need a dang place to store all that stuff.

[geargnasher]

Buckshot always said they need to give the lathes away for free, all your money goes into the tools anyway.

Gear

[btroj]

He isn't kidding. I can see why people end up with thousands in tooling. 100 here, 100 there, it all adds up.
Figure that each sizer needs one or two drills and a reamer. I have stuff for 30, 357/9 mm, and 375 so far. Right there it is over 100 bucks.

I hope my wife doesn't kill me over all this stuff.

[str8shot426]

He isn't kidding. I can see why people end up with thousands in tooling. 100 here, 100 there, it all adds up.
Figure that each sizer needs one or two drills and a reamer. I have stuff for 30, 357/9 mm, and 375 so far. Right there it is over 100 bucks.

I hope my wife doesn't kill me over all this stuff.
My wife realizes my expensive hobby keeps me away from other mischievous ventures.

I like the arrangement!

[RED333]

I need a thread file. I need lots of tooling. My wife commented on the number of boxes around the house from Enco.......

The lathe was cheap, it is the dang drills, reamers, and what not that add up fast. Now I need a dang place to store all that stuff.

I have a set something like this, sometimes I need to repair a bolt or pipe threads at work.
The files saves me time and headaches.
http://www.amazon.com/Nicholson-Thread-Repair-Single-Square/dp/B001T4KRHC

[theperfessor]

Not to be too self promoting buy I have a sign up list going right now in the Casting Equipment section for my press mounted push through sizer sets. We're having the adapter bodies blackened as I write this.

Yes, you can tie up a ton of money in tooling up any machine, I expect that it will cost me $5-10k (initially) to tool up my CNC mill when I get it. That doesn't include the previous investment in all the basic measuring tools ands setup hardware.

Is it any wonder that a shop has to charge $45 to $100/hr to meet wages & benefits, insurance, power, capital equipment and tooling costs?

What Buckshot charges for his services is a bargain IMHO.

[btroj]

A bargain? Buckshot is too cheap! He is lower than China would go but with quality they can't match.

I have a ton of respect for guys like Keith and Buckshot. Making the stuff they do for a reasonable price is an art in itself.

[paul h]

I'd start off with a 7/8-14 bolt, then all you have to do is bore out and finish the hole for the sizer, well taper the entry but the bulk of the work is done before you start.

[bear67]

I do what Paul suggest above. I purchase 7/8 14 grade 5 bolts, cut the head off and then drill, taper and polish to finished size with lead boolits and valve grinding compound. Dad always said time does not mean much to a hog and I can tell the story that goes along with this saying. I have started milling flats on the top of the dies to allow them to b e turned with a wrench. Will get up a picture later maybe, but I am 175 miles from home sitting around the fire looking out over the water.

[cbrick]

Finished a push thru sizer for the 375 today. Only took me 4.5 hours! I figure it must be worth 250 dollars or more if my time is worth a damn.

That's only because your new at it, before ya know it that figure will be down to around $212 or so. [smilie=1:

Rick

[btroj]

I'll put you down for 2 Rick.

[cbrick]

Checks already in the mail. [smilie=s:

Rick

[btroj]

To me or the ex wife? I figure she is more likely to see it than I am.....

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . Didn't know you had an X. What is her phone number, bet I could get a real ear full to post here. :twisted:

Rick

[btroj]

I meant your ex, I don't have one.

If I had one I'm sure she would have stories to tell. Wait, isn't that part of why they are an ex?

[cbrick]

My X? Which one?

Rick

[btroj]

Wow, slow learned are you?

If only you could pick wives like you can cast bullets.....

Mine is good, she was well trained by a fellow member here. 1shirt raised her well.

[cbrick]

Slow learner? I dunno, there's only been three.

Casting is easier. When a casting session doesn't go well ya just through them back in the pot. Wives for some strange reason tend to resist being tossed into a pot of molten lead.

Rick

[btroj]

Slow learner? I dunno, there's only been three.

Casting is easier. When a casting session doesn't go well ya just through them back in the pot. Wives for some strange reason tend to resist being tossed into a pot of molten lead.

Rick

Small wife or big pot of lead?

And three? Damn man, you aren't a slow learner, you are a glutton for punishment.

[cbrick]

First one died of cancer. The second one should have died of cancer. Slowly. Third one ate herself to death.

Rick

[littlejack]

I made a push through sizer die for my Lyman 525 sabot slugs. I wanted to try the slugs in a different wad, of which I have two bags. These wads have thicker petals, and the slug was not made to fit in them.
I uses a 7/8 x 14 grade 5 bolt. First, I drilled the center hole. Then I bored it to a few thousands of the my desired I.D. Then, I used a piece round stock split a couple inches on one end. I slipped emery cloth in the slit and wrapped it around the stock to get a tight fit needed to polish to size. The emery cloth is aggressive at the start, but as it wears, it polishes very well.
The wall thickness of the die is purty thin, but the die works perfect.
Jack

[jmorris]

That is a lot of work, the first one I built used a double split set collar to hold the homemade die.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eANEMBS_V_0


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/center.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/die.jpg

[deltaenterprizes]

I need a thread file. I need lots of tooling. My wife commented on the number of boxes around the house from Enco.......

The lathe was cheap, it is the dang drills, reamers, and what not that add up fast. Now I need a dang place to store all that stuff.
The tooling is usually as much as the lathe or double, sometimes triple.
I have lost count how much I have in tooling, it STARTED at $3000 almost 10 years ago and I am still adding tooling when I see it at the right price.

[woodbutcher]

:lol: Hi btroj.Know what you mean about tooling eatin` your lunch.A few years back,a friend bought a nice South Bend lathe at a surplus sale at Jacksonville Naval station in Fl.5k for the lathe and about 500lbs of tooling with it.One year later,he had also spent an additional 15K for more tooling,and no end in sight.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[btroj]

The tooling is eating me alive. Soon I will need to buy a place to store it. Sure glad I didn't know it was gonna be like this, I woulda been dumb enough to tell my wife and I wouldn't have a lathe in the garage.

[deltaenterprizes]

Now that you have a lathe you need a mill to go with it!

[btroj]

Please don't tell my wife that! I will say the garage has a 60 amp sub panel. She doesn't know why but I do......

[cbrick]

Please don't tell my wife that! I will say the garage has a 60 amp sub panel. She doesn't know why but I do......

Dialing her cell number right now . . . [smilie=s:

Rick

[btroj]

Rick, haven't you learned by now that calling women just leads to troubles?

[cbrick]

Not for the caller. :evil:

[btroj]

She says she didn't get a call from a guy who sounds like Eric Holder. Did you get a wrong number Rick?

[country gent]

And with the end mill youll want a cutter grinder to save money sharpening your used mills and a surface grinder to get trully accurate surfaces, and an id / od grinder, And oh yea the tooling for each one.

[btroj]

You trying to get me killed?

[cbrick]

She says she didn't get a call from a guy who sounds like Eric Holder. Did you get a wrong number Rick?

No, no wrong number. I just decided to give ya a break and let ya live. :mrgreen: Besides, you have another 20 grand to spend on tooling before ya can worry about a mill and then the tooling for that. :shock:

Rick

[btroj]

I would have that mill and tooling sooner if you would tell your uncle to get out of my pockets.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tooling costing money? My gawd guys you outta try outfitting a whole shop! I've spent literally a bunch of money on my shop,,,, however I have made a bunch more with what I've bought.

Don't buy useless stuff that you paid top dollar for, and will probably never use. This goes hand in hand with buying 'sets of things.'

Next,,, buy things from auctions! Buy used stuff from machine shops. I have about 10 5C collets I have bought new in the nearly 30 years I've been in business. I have bought several "boxes" of used collets at auctions and used tool dealers. Most come in about $1-2 each in those deals.

You can usually buy resharpened end mills from tool and cutter grinding outfits for $2-3 each and that's for big ones <1/2" are usually $1-2 each. Swap meets always have used end mills laying around. They can be resharpened for a dollar or so each.

Drills. I got a whole Huot Drill cabinet, that's fraction, letter and number drills at an auction for $95. It had about 300 drills in it and most were new. You have got to realize that stuff like this has no resale value hardly at all.

I would however suggest buying a complete set of good quality drills in an index and when you ruin one you replace it. At least then you have all the drill sizes covered up to 1/2".

New cutters of any kind are expensive, however used ones are virtually worthless. except to you. If you need a specific size then buy that one, and if you are machining soft material it can be a cheap one and work just fine. You don't need a $30 reamer to ream a hole in aluminum or 12L14. A $6 one will work just fine as long as you figure out how fast to run it. If you don't know how fast to run it then a $30 one won't work either.

If I need a drill bit that I have ran out of I usually buy 2-3 and that way I have some more when I need them. That's where the big drill cabinet comes in, and I have space for lots more than I actually have. You probably don't need one that big.


Learn how to make an adjustable lap, or buy and learn to use a Sunnen Hone. Pretty much all factory made sizing dies are case hardened. Your's don't need to be. These dies when made are drilled and reamed about .001-2 undersized and then honed to size. They are hard as hell and will take you hours to change the size one unless you make a proper lap.

You can also find a honing outfit and take a few dies in, and have them brought in to size, and I guarantee you'll be happier than anything you could make from scratch while trying to do everything yourself.

Part of running a machine shop,,, and make no mistake, just because you are not getting paid doesn't mean you aren't running one in your garage,,,, is learning to do what you can in house,,, and farming out specialized things to others. You just end up with better products in the end.

Nobody has every machine and every bit of tooling to do every job. It is not cost effective. That's why there are specialized shops.

Honing is a very precise operation, and accurately measuring exactly what you've done is even more precise. If you don't have the Sunnen Bore Gauge, to go along with the Sunnen Hone,, then you can't measure what you've done except by pushing a boolit thru it until it comes out right.

Granted a piece of sand paper wrapped around a stick will work eventually. But you will never get the finish the Hone will deliver. (That's why they invented it?)

Don't beat yourself up for not having everything you need. It took me many years to get what I have and I have to buy new stuff for nearly every job. I even have a few things I've never used and they were procured by buying out a couple of machine shops. Then I parted hem out and kept the stuff I wanted. I made money on the deals and I ended up with bunches of drills, end, mills collets, reamers, and about a million other doodads.

All of which would have cost me a million dollars if I had bought them new. Instead I made money by selling the big items and keeping the boot.

Hot tip. go online and hunt down Machine Tool Auctioneers in your area. I get 2 -3 flyers every week of outfits going out of business, and there are plenty more coming. Attend some of the auctions in your area when they have something that you want or just go to look.

Warning,,,,,Bring Cash!

Randy

[btroj]

Never thought of machine tool auctions. That is an excellent idea.


I have been buying only what I need for specific jobs. I'm not a guy who buys tools because they look cool or make me seem important. If I don't need it, I don't buy it.

Making an adjustable lap. I hadn't thought of making one buy am thinking of buying a few.

[jmorris]

I agree with W.R., I think I only have two pieces of equipment in my shop that were new when I bought them.

As for having too much equipment, all it takes to build anything is one of everything. Also if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

[paul h]

Randy,

Great right up. The machine shop that stays in business is the one that knows when to make tooling, when to buy tooling, and when to sub out a job. Also when to accept a job, and when to turn one down when there is no proffit in it.

The trouble is, not all parts of the country are awash in used machine tools or tooling. I grew up in Nor cal and no had no problems betting used end mills by the pound nor any problems finding reasonably priced used tools.

Once I moved to Alaska, I learned that there are parts of the country where what few used machine tools show up are horribly over priced clapped out ****. And while ebay is an option, shipping kills you for large machines and no way I'm going to roll the dice on paying a premium on shipping something that might be no more than scrap metal.

[MarkP]

You may want to consider getting an adjustable reamer to help on tooling costs. I use an adjustable reamer to ID ream my wildcat necks.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#adjustable-reamers/=uumqze

You will get much faster as you develop a mfg system. You can polish out a lead and several thousandths in diameter fairly quickly while soft and still maintain concentricity and circularity so you may not need to use a reamer that is close in diameter.

If you plan to heat treat your dies you will need to make some adjustments to accommodate for shrinkage of the ID and expansion of the OD.

I have been using pin gauges to determine ID I was using a bore mic. Also I have used jacketed bullets as a gauge before heat treating and after heat treating while final polishing to size. You will get some mill scale after heat treating that will need to be polished out.

Drilling the small holes on Star type dies is careful and time consuming process.

[W.R.Buchanan]

PaulH: you would have to go to where the stuff is,,, and look for what you need,,, and then rent a trailer and pull it home to deal with shipping costs in the most efficient manner.

I know it would be a long trip for you but it would be considerably cheaper than having it shipped. When it comes to machine tools or cars or anything else pricey and complicated there is no substitute for first hand viewing.

I would never buy any machine sight unseen, I would never buy a gun sight unseen unless it was a new generic one.

When it comes to peripheral doodads for a shop then if you know what you are looking at and what it is worth to you then you can do pretty well. Buying a box of 5C collets you really only need to know if they are fractional sizes or Emergency collets and how many there are.

I bought a box of E collets for $25 once when I got home there were 50 + in the box and some were brand new never cut and lots were usable as they were and more were usable after being recut. .50 a piece was a pretty good deal! I knew that at $25 for a box full of what appeared to be junk I couldn't really go wrong.

I traded the Threading Attachment off my Hardinge Chucker to a machine tool dealer for a bunch of tooling, a machine vise, a Rapidapter QD tool holder for a Bridgeport, and a bunch of small doodads. The Threading Attachment was useless to me and they effectively gave me $1200 credit for it. I definitely got the better of that deal and my shop got a lot of needed tools, cutters, collets, and the like.

People have also given me a lot of stuff for my shop just trying to help out. That Thumler's Vibratory tumbler I use for case cleaning was given to me along with a bunch of other stuff The guy just wanted out of his space and wanted to help me out. I took it and still use lots of it frequently. He gave me almost 1000 lbs of big aluminum chunks that I took directly to a recycler and got $700 for! All because he didn't want to deal with it.

For $700 I dealt with it! and I thanked him profusely. and no I didn't tell him I scrapped all that aluminum and got $700 for it and throw it in his face. There was no need to offend a friend who was helping me out.

I ran some parts for him at a later date and helped him out. What goes around comes around.

First rule of business is "Don't look a Gift Horse in the mouth."

Randy

[paul h]

It would be cheaper for my fly down, inspect the machinery, fly back and then have it shipped. Renting a trailer one way to Alaska is almost as much as buying one, diesel for the round trip would be ~$2k, hotels and food $1-2k, and the biggest cost for me would be the wages for a week off of work to drive down, week to inspect tools, and a week to drive back.

As much as I'd love to have a Monarch 10EE, for my uses I'm better off going with the known entity of the Asian import 12-14X36-40's with some level of support and warranty from the dealers.

[texassako]

Grungy old dies can make a good starting point, if you have any around. A steel .357 FL die that was given to me after being mangled up in a failed stuck case removal was my first project to make a .380" push through. It just needed a little bit of opening up. A scratched and rusty .223 FL missing all the internals became a .278" push through this past weekend. The shoulder of the .223 made a good taper into the sizing part. Turning down the knurled(work hardened?) top to fit a red Lee catch can was interesting and noisy.

[littlejack]

Fellow tinkerers and experienced machine operators:

Can you elaborate a little on your techniques of opening up the dies, and or threaded stock.
I have chucked and drilled for undersized holes. Then if the drilled hole is big enough, use a boring bar to open up the hole closer to what i needed. Then, I used a split rod, with emery cloth to polish and open up to my desired ID.
Do you use reamers for your finished bores?
How small of a boring bar can one use that works efficiently?
Are there any tricks to drilling, boring, polishing that will help me in machining my sizer dies and
miscellaneous bores etc?
All help and advice very much appreciated.
Jack

[btroj]

I have been drilling a bit undersized, reaming close to final size, then polishing with a split rod to final size. I cut the tapered opening with a taper reamer and bore the top of the die with an over sized bit to leave 1/4 to 1/2 inch straight section to do the actual sizing.

I find this works well. I use a reamer slightly smaller than the range of desired sizes. For instance I use a .308 reamer for all 30 cal sizers. It is pretty simple to open up a .308 sizer to anything from .309 to .314.

[jmorris]

Tapered and adjustable reamers are what I use. The individual "floating"" blade reamers don't give me as good end product as the set screw adjustable style reamer (kind in my hand).

With CNC and coolant I have used boring bars that were so tiny I could break them with my fingers.

[smokeywolf]

I probably have about $18,000 in my lathe, mill, and rotary phase converter, but likely about double that in tooling.

Mill vises, drill press vises, grinding vises, rotary tables, indexing fixtures, dividing heads, right angle heads for the Bridgeport, drill chucks, tapping heads, geometric die heads, surface plates, angle plates, lapping plates, height gages, parallels, box parallels, adjustable parallels, gage blocks, V-blocks, 1-2-3 blocks, transfer punches, transfer screws, mill stops, lathe bits and insert tooling, milling cutters & saws, end mills, keyway cutters, broaches, drills, center drills, drill blanks, reamers, taps, dies, counterbores, boring bars, boring heads, live & dead centers, collets, collet blocks, soft jaws, taper and expanding mandrels.

I probably have over $2,000 in tool posts and holders for the lathe.

I have at least 20 feet of shelf units, 3 rollaways and 6 machinist's chests and still don't have enough storage.

Like casting & reloading equipment and tooling, machinist tools & tooling is an addiction.

smokeywolf

[littlejack]

Thank you fellas for your information.
It is invaluable to the novice (myself) hobbyist. It saves a lot of time and broken tooling to at least know some of the procedures and tooling needed to do a specific job.
I will have to keep my eyes open for a few (yea right) reamers. I have a mentality that if I may need something in my future, I get it. My little man cave is shrinking.
I have definitely found out, since getting my lathe, that the lathe was only the beginning of emptying my wallet. The tooling is a never ending buying spree.
I hope others post their procedures and techniques and tools used. It is very helpful for us beginners.
Jack

[paul h]

The nice thing about a lathe is with some HSS and a grinder, you can make much of your own tooling for minimal cost. A mill is where tooling really eats your lunch!

Machine tools are wonderful as what you can produce is limited only by your imagination, skills and patience.

[jmorris]

Special tooling can get expensive quick but can do, what would take a guy a day on a bridgeport, in 10 minutes. With a more accuracy and a hell of a lot less stress.