Best caliber to minimize meat loss?

[davidheart]

Howdy, I was wondering what y'all's experience has been with meat loss in both cast and j-words? I understand boolit placement is everything but from what I've seen 30 caliber has really destroyed a few deer. My neighbor gave us a deer he shot with his 30-06 at 150 yards. Both front legs were COMPLETELY unusable. I shot a buck with a 22-250 a week ago and had very little meat loss.

Of all the deer I've seen shot with a 30 caliber I've thought "What a waste!". Granted I've yet to shoot a deer with my 30 caliber cast boolits but.... I don't want to waste. What of 7mm and 6.5 boolits and meat loss? 45-70? Etc? Thanks!

[44man]

All meat loss hinges on bullet/ boolit construction ONLY, never caliber. One caliber with the wrong boolit will lose animals while a Boolit change will destroy it. Does not matter how big or small it is.
You are better off finding the bullet/boolit that works for what you shoot. The 30 will do anything from lost to ruin.

[waksupi]

Stay with heavy for caliber bullets. They don't expand as much, to create the damage. When I hunted with the .338 WM, I used 250 gr. bullets, and you could eat up to the hole. One season I tried 200 gr., and I swear I saw daylight completely through the animal when the bullet struck. Never more. With cast in the .358 Win, the heavy bullets have never destroyed a lot of meat, assuming a hit in the ribs.

[DougGuy]

I shot a medium sized doe with a 405gr hp from an inline muzzle loader and I could see the WOODS through the softball sized hole in the rib cage as it took a short run before expiring!

Large meplat flat nosed, NON hollowpoints at medium velocity punch a clean hole and golfball sized wound channel that don't destroy much outside the immediate wound.

My Ruger M77 in .308 was horrendous with 150gr soft points, not much better with 165s but once I topped the cases with a 180gr plain base soft point, it got right manageable and I wasn't picking boolit fragments out of half the deer.

[seaboltm]

I too like large, non expanding bullets. I have hit deer with full power 300 grain 375H&H loads with minimal meat damage. The bullet was too tough to expand on thin skin deer and punched a .375 hole right through the vitals. Same shot with a violently expanded 243 bullet would have made a considerable mess.

[Fishman]

It also matters where you shoot them. A 30-06 through the shoulders is bad, but the same one through the ribs is just fine. Generally the higher the velocity, the more damage as well. A couple of deer my son shot with the .243 wssm were really messy inside despite perfect shots through the lungs. Hydrostatic shock is apparantly very high with that round and ruptured everything from stem to stern. I don't like wasting the tendies, so the next handloads were downloaded to .243 win velocities. Much more better.

[Blammer]

shoot them here

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg.html)

no meant loss, unless you count the heart of course.

this was using a 30-06 with cast bullets.

as stated earlier, bullet construction has everything to do with meat loss, not caliber.

[runfiverun]

construction is part of the equation, impact velocity is the other part.
I have a 7x57 Ackley [icl really] and can push a 139 gr bullet anywhere from 2400 fps to up over 3,000 fps.

I thought that the upper velocity would extend my range but I should cover my bets by spending $35-$40.00 for 50 bullets, imagine my surprise when I completely destroyed the front shoulder of a couple of bucks at my normal shooting distance.
I had been getting pass throughs and 50 cent exit wounds with the 20 cent bullets and 4 grains less powder on both deer and elk.
no I didn't gain any accuracy by spending the extra cash, but I did get a flatter shooting more meat destroying rifle in the bargain.
It took me a try or two to figure it out, but I now own two lifetime supply's of the 20 cent bullets just to make sure I don't try and change again.

ever since then I have been an advocate of moderate [not much over 2800 fps] velocity's and a nominal to slightly over nominal bullet weight.
even when I use my 25-06 to hunt with I back it down a couple of clicks and don't aim at the front side shoulder, and I probably have the slowest 270 in the world launching 150 gr bullets from a 21" barrel.

funny now that I think about it, I push my cast rifles as fast as they will go and back off my jacketed stuff to near minimum.

[davidheart]

Thanks guys for the feedback! So basically, no matter what caliber:

A) DO NOT HIT THE SHOULDER (if I can help it)
B) Shoot heavy for caliber boolits/bullets
C) Keep velocities under 2800fps

Of course my 22-250 was running a 65gr Gameking at about 3500.... but I guess that's about the bullet construction. Controlled expansion soft point. Plus I shot it in the low chest in front of the legs.

I don't like shooting the neck because we LOVE the neck roast in this house..... shot out the esophagus of a buck though and dropped it in it's tracks. No neck meat loss. ;)

[seaboltm]

I could argue both ways on shoulder hits, depending on the variables. In dense cover, for example, a 300 grain 44 magnum bullet aimed at breaking the shoulders would anchor the beast and keep it from running into dense cover and maybe getting lost. There are a lot of variables, which is where experience comes in. But in general an animal hit through both lungs is short for this earth, and if tracking is not an issue, that would be my choice (behind the shoulders).

[drinks]

3 point program, big, fat and slow.

[jhalcott]

I've killed deer with slow and heavy 7mm cast bullets, fast 6mm bullets and a whole lot of other cast and jacketed stuff. I killed quite a few on a culling operation using heavy cast bullets in a 7TC/U carbine and more with a 6mm shooting 85 grain Sierra HPBT's. I wasn't trying to save the meat!!. I used a 358 Winchester and it's big brother the 35 Whelen on some deer with satisfying results, both with 200 and 245 grain cast bullets. I don't THINK the caliber is as important as WHERE you hit them. A heavy for caliber at moderate speed thru the ribs destroys less than the speedier types.

[stephen m weiss]

I am so glad somebody else posted this. I have been wanting to bring this up. After examining several deer I blew apart with 308 factory hunting ammo and a police 223 round, i was less than happy with the amount of lead unaccounted for inside the animal. I dont want to waste an ounce of the animal. Everything goes to either my family or the dog. Neither one should be injesting lead.

I have gone to 308 FMJ's at about 1800 fps for deer( works great on squirrel too). Water testing as well as recoving rounds from wet sand shows they tumble rapidly, have 26" penetration or so, and keep all the lead in the very thick jacket. I eat ALL the meat including the bullet hole. Bullet placement is key, and my woods are thick and straight up the side of a mountain. I like CNS shots since most shots are under 40 yards, and if I can hit a squirrel in the head at that range, I can certainly dump a deer in the neck. No point in taking a risk of the animal running off.

The one I shot in the neck skimmed the spine in the neck, took out the jugular, blew the top off the heart, and broke 8 ribs on the way out. Dead right there. The bullet was going sideways as it exited (having cut all those ribs) and cut down a 1.25" dia beech tree behind the deer. The bullet is 1.13" long so it was clearly going sideways. My dog even ate the head and pelt.

I use .224 fmjs going 2200fps for squirrel. Milk just testing shows they are just starting to frag at 6" deep, so still whole and going straight thru at 2" on a squirrel.

[Omega]

I am so glad somebody else posted this. I have been wanting to bring this up. After examining several deer I blew apart with 308 factory hunting ammo and a police 223 round, i was less than happy with the amount of lead unaccounted for inside the animal. I dont want to waste an ounce of the animal. Everything goes to either my family or the dog. Neither one should be injesting lead.

I have gone to 308 FMJ's at about 1800 fps for deer( works great on squirrel too). Water testing as well as recoving rounds from wet sand shows they tumble rapidly, have 26" penetration or so, and keep all the lead in the very thick jacket. I eat ALL the meat including the bullet hole. Bullet placement is key, and my woods are thick and straight up the side of a mountain. I like CNS shots since most shots are under 40 yards, and if I can hit a squirrel in the head at that range, I can certainly dump a deer in the neck. No point in taking a risk of the animal running off.

The one I shot in the neck skimmed the spine in the neck, took out the jugular, blew the top off the heart, and broke 8 ribs on the way out. Dead right there. The bullet was going sideways as it exited (having cut all those ribs) and cut down a 1.25" dia beech tree behind the deer. The bullet is 1.13" long so it was clearly going sideways. My dog even ate the head and pelt.

I use .224 fmjs going 2200fps for squirrel. Milk just testing shows they are just starting to frag at 6" deep, so still whole and going straight thru at 2" on a squirrel.I don't know about there in NY, but here in TN you can't use FMJs for game, just varmints. I am not so concerned about lead as most of my rounds go in small come out big, and rarely stay in the deer.

[davidheart]

New York is such a bastion of freedom and gun rights and as such I'm sure FMJ is perfectly legal to use. :)

Thank you for your encouragement Stephen. I'm also glad to know 2200fps on a squirrel head doesn't waste anything!

[Vopie]

Keep using FMJ's on deer and the only thing you're going to be feeding is the local coyote population!!!!

[runfiverun]

fmj's are good on coyote's.
I never criticize anyone's choice in bullets, if they have done their home work.

[btroj]

Ever since I went to using cast I don't seem to have much meat damage. Heavy bullets not driven too fast.

[altheating]

Didn't I read somewhere that FMJ'S were used by the military to wound, not kill ? Their thinking was it would take two more solders to carry the one wounded solder. Since a deer is about the size of a human, wounding is wounding no mater what your shooting. It's just not ethical! And IMHO neither is "Skimming the Spine" with a FMJ 308 bullet.

[davidheart]

Didn't I read somewhere that FMJ'S were used by the military to wound, not kill ? Their thinking was it would take two more solders to carry the one wounded solder. Since a deer is about the size of a human, wounding is wounding no mater what your shooting. It's just not ethical! And IMHO neither is "Skimming the Spine" with a FMJ 308 bullet.

That's a popular belief in regards to wounding however depending on the twist of your barrel and the velocity of the FMJ there is extreme potential for much more damage than 'wounding'. Honestly bullet placement truly is everything in regards to kills.

If you're SUPER steady then FMJ's may be able to ethically get the nod. I'm just not that guy.

A thin FMJ 55-62gr 223/5.56 does a tremendous amount of damage. Never seen 7.62/308 FMJ damage in person so I couldn't say about the heavier bullet.

Guys around here take hogs with 223 FMJ. Last two hogs I saw strung up were about 175-200lbs each? A friend called and told me to come over and help process them. One of the hogs was taken with 1 shot from a 223. *Dead-Right-There*

The other hog had multiple shots because it began to charge our fellow and frantically he didn't aim but rather "kept pulling the trigger" until it would stop moving.... :oops:

When it comes to FMJ's I leave the choice up to the individual hunter to determine his ability to ethically put down game and to understand the laws he needs to abide by. It's not my job to tell him otherwise. If he feels he's able to ethically put down an animal then there is nothing I can say or do to tell him otherwise. He may very well be up to the task.

[JSH]

I do my own processing. A fair bit of work but I know what I have.
I don't consider blood shot meat ruined myself. A lot of the clotted blood can be cleaned fairly easy with paper towels. Yes it is bruised but when added to the rest of the grinding meat and then double ground, you never know the difference.

[davidheart]

I do my own processing. A fair bit of work but I know what I have.
I don't consider blood shot meat ruined myself. A lot of the clotted blood can be cleaned fairly easy with paper towels. Yes it is bruised but when added to the rest of the grinding meat and then double ground, you never know the difference.

That's a good idea. I hadn't thought about it as grinding meat.

[JWFilips]

Not Sure where I read it: but it may have been an article in Handloader Magazine many years ago. The author claims the use of a .243 Win w/ Sierra 87 Grain boat tail hollow point, was a instant kill on whitetails in the chest cavity!......."in" only but never "out". All destruction took place in the body cavity. Preserving all the meat. While I tried with said load I had never had the opportunity to prove it.

[Vopie]

Remember "you can't start eat'en until it's down". Better to lose a lb. of burger than the whole deer!!!!

[JSH]

Worst mess I have ever had was with Winchester silver tips in a 270.
My go to timber/ short range cartridge is the 357 mag and a 180 cast. As the saying goes eat right up to the hole. This particular bullet has accounted for a truck load of deer in the last half dozen years. Shots have been from 30-150 yards at all kinds of angles, me trying to retrieve one of my boolits. Still empty handed.
It.has punched through both front shoulder and totally wreck the inside cavity on shot like that. Rib/ lung shots have been just as impressive from the hydraulic effect.
Bullet placement and design is key IMHO.
I won't take any shots unless I can get from the front shoulder to the wrinkle behind their in my sights. One owes it to the animal.
Jeff

[quilbilly]

Patched round ball. Eat right up to the hole.

[Piedmont]

Didn't I read somewhere that FMJ'S were used by the military to wound, not kill ? Their thinking was it would take two more solders to carry the one wounded solder. Since a deer is about the size of a human, wounding is wounding no mater what your shooting. It's just not ethical! And IMHO neither is "Skimming the Spine" with a FMJ 308 bullet.

I'm sure you read that because I have read it, too, but it isn't true.

[Boyscout]

I think FMJ used by the military to help with reliability and the need for sustained rate of fire. "SRF" isn't a concern for us when we hunt as most of us believe in one shot-one kill.

[GhostHawk]

Regarding meat loss, it isn't the caliber.

It is the Velocity

And the impact point.

Both of which you can do something about.

People have got it in their heads that you need 150 grain bullet moving 3k fps to kill something.

Fact is the same bullet at half that speed will do just fine. It just doesn't shoot quite as flat and maybe doesn't let you take a risky shot beyond reasonable range.

Put it in the boiler room and all is fine.

Want to avoid losing meat, work on shot placement.

[GhostHawk]

Patched round ball. Eat right up to the hole.

Big bullet, slow speed, good shot placement.

We are in agreement.

Jwfilips my problem with that load is that that every so often you will have one hit a rib that is a just a smidgeon bigger, or a skosh thicker than average and it blows up on the outside.

Deer had a saucer sized round white spot where the skin was flayed away showing the tallow. And was bouncing in his tracks for the 3 miles we could see him.

It doesn't have to happen "often" in fact for me only once was enough.

.243 is a great cartridge but I don't shoot deer with it. Love surprising crows at 440 yards though.

[roadie]

Not Sure where I read it: but it may have been an article in Handloader Magazine many years ago. The author claims the use of a .243 Win w/ Sierra 87 Grain boat tail hollow point, was a instant kill on whitetails in the chest cavity!......."in" only but never "out". All destruction took place in the body cavity. Preserving all the meat. While I tried with said load I had never had the opportunity to prove it.


The .243 was designed as a combination varmint/thin skinned game cartridge. It is much more at home as a varmint cartridge...common ammunition is thin jacketed and while there have been very good, efficient kills on deer with it, I suspect there there have been many sloppy, inefficient, blundered, botched, and totally screwed up messes using it.

Big, heavy and slow....in the right place....it just doesn't take tremendous speed to kill a lil deer....and you have a much better chance of "eating right up to the hole". I personally think the best calibers start at .35 and go up from there.

[davidheart]

....I personally think the best calibers start at .35 and go up from there.

45-70? 9.3 Mauser? I've been looking for an excuse to go big or go home. :D :D

But those don't fit in a short action Savage with a simple barrel swap..... :(

[waksupi]

45-70? 9.3 Mauser? I've been looking for an excuse to go big or go home. :D :D

But those don't fit in a short action Savage with a simple barrel swap..... :(

You are in search of the Holy Grail, the .358 Winchester

[davidheart]

You are in search of the Holy Grail, the .358 Winchester

Barrels are 'easy' to come by for the Savage. I may have to think about this so called 'Holy Grail'.

A 308 necked up to 358? Can I load my 125 and 158gr 357 mag boolits in this Holy Grail?

[Old Scribe]

The last buck I got was with my .50 cal flintlock at about 100 yards. Don't know what the velocity was but a 180 grain round ball over 80 grains 2f Goex black powder in the ribs went almost clear through with little meat damaged.
I've also taken game with both 30-30 and 35 Remington using jacketed soft points also w/o much damage. Gotta put your bullet in the chest cavity where you know it's gonna be a kill.

[big bore 99]

I read somewhere that the Geneva Convention was the one who came out with FMJ military bullet rules. It said that FMJ would either kill outright or leave a somewhat cleaner, and maybe survivable wound. A little more humane on the battlefield.

[hc18flyer]

Yes you can shoot .38 pistol bullets in your 358. Mine loves Lee 168gr. TL unsized bullets and 9-12 grains of Trail Boss. It will shoot 5+ shoot nickel sized groups all afternoon at 75 yards. I do enlarge the flash hole, although likely not needed. Flyer

[jhalcott]

I BELIEVE it was the HAGUE CONVENTION that formulated the use of FMJ ammo rules in warfare. A more HUMANE bullet than a soft lead projectile!

[quilbilly]

After so many years of both muzzleloader hunting and modern rifle, I concluded a long time ago high velocity was overrated. Doing terminal ballistics test on a 30 cal. 160 gr RNGC boolit, I determined a terminal velocity of 1300 fps was more than adequate for a quick humane kill weigh little meat loss. On the other hand, the last deer I took with a modern rifle was with a 6mm Rem 100 gr. Sierra with the deer at 150 yards and the projectile at an MV of 2800 fps. The mule deer (over 275# live weight) went about 10 yards and I lost at least 10% of the meat due to the high velocity projectile. From that meat loss I started doing my terminal ballistics test and came to the conclusion (my opinion only) that the minimum terminal velocity for deer for the 6mm 100gr was 1600 fps., for 7mm 135 gr cast boolit was 1500 fps, for the 30 cal 160 was 1300 FPS, for the 44 cal 255 gr boolit was 850 fps for deer and 1200 fps for elk.
In other words, why beat yourself up with high recoil and velocity when you can be more comfortable, shoot better, and take more meat home with a little less velocity.

[Don Fischer]

Ever since I went to using cast I don't seem to have much meat damage. Heavy bullets not driven too fast.

FMJ's are required by the Geneva Convention. They require it for less tissue destruction on solder's in combat. The fact that some still get messed up pretty bad just show's that FMJ's are in fact very deadly. They will also work well on Deer size animals. Killed a number of deer in Europe with an M1 carbine and FNJ's. Bad part is they don't lose any weight and shoot on thru and go who knows where!

The trendy thing to do these days is use a light bullet driven fast. It will certainly work if you make real sure you don't hit meat. I shot a deer quite a number of years ago with a 243 and 75gr V-Max, very explosive bullet. Bullet went in behind the shoulder and destroyed pretty much every thing in the chest cavity. Deer went down where is stood, bullet hit and it just went straight down.

I've shot a lot of Deer with my 308's. 165gr Hornady Spire Point/Inter lock was my bullet. i don't know what would happen if I hit meat, don't recall ever doing that. I've tried 180's in it and they shot very well but not as well as the 165's.

[davidheart]

A guy I knew liked to use a 308 w/ ball ammo, the right point of impact did the trick every time, but all it takes is once to dissuade most hunters that a certain combination or caliber is worthless, most the time due to bad placement. Ball ammo has a proven tendency, or match bullets for that matter, of swapping ends at a certain depth, sometimes tumbling. Whether that depth is within or outside the shot animal depends. Any spitzer has a tendency of following curvatures and deviation from point of impact can happen. A large meplat seems to allow straighter penetration, driven, but not too fast.

The tumbling is what causes the severe tissue damage we see in war photos and game animals shot with FMJ. Like I mentioned earlier some guys I know use FMJ Tulammo/PPU to shoot hogs around here and usually are able to put them down with one shot to the CNS. I have seen damage paths though from vital shot 223 FMJ's and it's... not pretty. BUT when it DOES NOT tumble it's just a pinhole!

[44man]

You are so much better with energy placed at the right place before exit. Tumbling bullets are not to be relied on. The heart shown is a lost deer if the heart was not hit and is a poor thing to look for. That boolit through lungs only is GONE.
Too much is said about PLACEMENT when most of us have trouble hitting the whole deer without a BR. Many talk a good story about a CNS hit but that is easy on a keyboard. Off hand on deer is where you learn.
I can show internal damage with no meat loss. Just see the difference with the stripe across a heart.122791
I will continue to be practical and not rely on the "experts". I am close to 560 deer kills so if you shot 1 or 2 and offer advise, maybe a few will not listen for the better.
I am enamored by guys that hit exact, not proven in the field. Most can't hit a barn door from inside.
You do not fool me.

[Blammer]

I prefer to shoot using a rest, not off hand. :)

[davidheart]

You are so much better with energy placed at the right place before exit. Tumbling bullets are not to be relied on. The heart shown is a lost deer if the heart was not hit and is a poor thing to look for. That boolit through lungs only is GONE....Too much is said about PLACEMENT when most of us have trouble hitting the whole deer without a BR. Many talk a good story about a CNS hit but that is easy on a keyboard.......I will continue to be practical and not rely on the "experts". I am close to 560 deer kills so if you shot 1 or 2 and offer advise, maybe a few will not listen for the better....I am enamored by guys that hit exact, not proven in the field. Most can't hit a barn door from inside.
You do not fool me.

That's really harsh and I'm not sure who the post was directed at.

If it's me then I'd refer you to my post I think on the first page in which I said I don't use FMJ's for hunting nor would I ever recommend one to do it unless they had "no choice" (life in danger). I'm not a .2MOA shooter but I've proven to myself I'm at least as good as .4" @ 100yd and 1" at 212yd with a 6x scope so.... I have a small farm and get to butcher up plenty of goat, deer, rabbits and other critters and I understand anatomy. If I intend to hit CNS, I do. I'm not sure who you're talking to here though?

I've never seen FMJ 308 damage but I have seen FMJ 223 take down a few heavy hogs. Again. Central Nervous System. Spine. Brain. I've also butchered up a 180lb hog with 233 damage to the internals and a 150lb hog which was taken with 223 shot side by side with each other. Some bullets tumbled, some didn't. I didn't shoot the hog. It was a buddy who got panicky when it started to charge him after he shot the first one. He shot one of them several times before it finally went down. I told him he was an idiot for using FMJ. He's 30 years older than me.

I also know 2 guys who take 10-20 deer in a year as culls, special permit for field (farm) management, and regular hunting season. They swear by a FMJ 223 or varmint 22-250 load to the C.N.S. (Head, Neck, Spine) I'm sure after 20 years of doing that they've racked up a few deer as well. I have one sitting in my freezer because they have so much meat they don't know what to do with.

Do I suggest it? NO. I'm not nearly as experienced as they are but even if I were, I still wouldn't do it and I have no idea why they do.

My point is.... please don't be mean. Be honest, but it's not becoming to throw out random insults for anybody to pick up. And some people have no problem whatsoever using 22 caliber bullets and making CNS shots. Some people can't hit a barn door from the inside. Knowing our own personal limitations is one thing we ought to pick up with wisdom...

[pls1911]

44 man has a point, but I remain firmly in the shot placement camp.
I don't care if it's from a bench rest in a stand, a rest against a tree, sitting, kneeling, Standing or prone, be honest with yourself and honor your quarry.
If you can't make the shot, pass it.
One shot. Be sure.
I don't know it all, but the one thing Grandad taught was you get ONE shot, so be GD SURE!!!
In 50 odd years of hunting all sorts of critters, the old man's hand is still on my shoulder, smiling every time I pull the trigger... one shot, SURE.
Sometimes I come to camp empty handed, but never wondering, never sorry, always appreciative that I'm not tracking in the dark.

[FLHTC]

I am so glad somebody else posted this. I have been wanting to bring this up. After examining several deer I blew apart with 308 factory hunting ammo and a police 223 round, i was less than happy with the amount of lead unaccounted for inside the animal. I dont want to waste an ounce of the animal. Everything goes to either my family or the dog. Neither one should be injesting lead.

I have gone to 308 FMJ's at about 1800 fps for deer( works great on squirrel too). Water testing as well as recoving rounds from wet sand shows they tumble rapidly, have 26" penetration or so, and keep all the lead in the very thick jacket. I eat ALL the meat including the bullet hole. Bullet placement is key, and my woods are thick and straight up the side of a mountain. I like CNS shots since most shots are under 40 yards, and if I can hit a squirrel in the head at that range, I can certainly dump a deer in the neck. No point in taking a risk of the animal running off.

The one I shot in the neck skimmed the spine in the neck, took out the jugular, blew the top off the heart, and broke 8 ribs on the way out. Dead right there. The bullet was going sideways as it exited (having cut all those ribs) and cut down a 1.25" dia beech tree behind the deer. The bullet is 1.13" long so it was clearly going sideways. My dog even ate the head and pelt.

I use .224 fmjs going 2200fps for squirrel. Milk just testing shows they are just starting to frag at 6" deep, so still whole and going straight thru at 2" on a squirrel.

You're not alone. A hole through the neck is not conducive to easy escape. I've never lost one yet to FMJs and the hydrostatic shock of a 30 caliber bullet in the neck will drop a deer in it's tracks. Even a Hornet round in the neck spells curtains. They might be able to breathe but they certainly aren't going to move their legs again with a bomb going off next to their spinal cord.

[44man]

I know too many hunters that can't shoot for beans. They clean the rifle and it never comes out all year. We here are different and shoot more so I direct nothing at you fellas. But I see it in the field.
Yes, shot placement is where it is but most off my revolver shots are off hand. Deer do not appear where I have a rest most of the time. It is rare that I can find support. I would love neck shots but you need to get real. Without a rest, you can't hit a neck with a rifle. Moving deer are worse for a neck shot.
When you find as many dead deer as I do from the "expert shots" around here you need to stop shooting from the key board. I shot deer from my shooting bench but still off hand since they were not out front. Silly suckers do not play by rules.
Shoot from an elevated house over a food plot, coffee and heaters for comfort. Get your butt freezing once.
Stalking and get your white hunter to place sticks. Does not work with white tails so easy.
To hit deer in the neck at 50 yards means you can hit a steel ram off hand at 500 meters every shot off hand.

[truckjohn]

What you will find with meat loss....


#1. The slower the bullet goes - the less meat damage. This is classic with Cast... Very little meat damage because the bullet is going much slower.... 7.62x39's and 30-30's also do less meat damage than a 30-06 for the same shot placement...

#2. Pick a bullet that's not designed to "Blow up".. Berger hunting bullets, A-Maxes, Ballistic tips are not what you want for less meat damage... Barnes X-bullets on the other hand produce far less meat damage than most cup and core bullets....

#3. To minimize meat damage - don't shoot into areas that contain meat you want... I know a lot of crusty old meat hunters that plunk deer behind the ear... No meat lost.... I know FAR more hunters who just shoot 3" behind the front leg and there's very little worthwhile meat lost.

Honestly, though... The most "Blown Up" I have EVER seen a Deer was when a friend of the family shot an 80# doe with a 45/70 using the 240g hollow points at about 20 yards... Shot her quartering towards him straight into the ball of the shoulder facing him..... broke both shoulders and completely wrecked one, broke all the ribs on one side, broke the back, blew up about 50% of the loin, broke one rear leg and wrecked that whole ham... He got about 15 lbs of non-bloodshot meat..... Literally, the deer looked like it got stuck under his truck and drug about 2 miles....

Thanks

[44man]

I might have shot the smallest revolver groups ever shot but to shoot a deer behind the ear is just not going to happen, even with a rifle off hand.
I have made a mess out of deer too with the wrong boolits. It is why I work so hard to find the right thing for each caliber.
I totally refuse to believe that a .50 hole will kill better then a .44 hole based on size.
I hate ME figures but energy is needed or you should poke deer with a sharp stick. Thousands of years ago, they found the stick did not work so they made stone blades. Some today make boolits like a stick while others make grenades.

[davidheart]

I know too many hunters that can't shoot for beans.....I would love neck shots but you need to get real. Without a rest, you can't hit a neck with a rifle.....When you find as many dead deer as I do from the "expert shots" around here you need to stop shooting from the key board.....To hit deer in the neck at 50 yards means you can hit a steel ram off hand at 500 meters every shot off hand.

Your posts are confusing sir. I'm still thinking your not talking to anybody here but then you continue to say comments like "YOU need to stop shooting from the keyboard" and "YOU need to get real. Without a rest, YOU can't hit a neck with a rifle."........ That's why it looks personal directed towards somebody here on the forums.

How is it you think without a rest we can't hit a neck with a rifle? Maybe you can't... but my point is everybody needs to know their own limitations.

This deer was taken at 50 yards by me 2 weeks ago off-hand with no rest or sling in a kneeling position. Neck shot.
122915

This is the exit wound.
122916

This deer was taken this morning by a friend of mine at 145 yards neck shot using a GI Sling to shoot without a rest.
122917

Like I said, you probably know a lot of bad shots and you yourself may not be able to make the shot but it's everybody's own responsibility to know their own limits. And I don't have the opportunity to shoot silhouette here but the local club does have 200 yard rimfire silhouette and I am able to clear 6 inch rams at 200 with a 22lr. My friend is an Appleseed instructor and is more than capable of putting 5 .223 shots in a dime using only a GI Sling at 150 yards.

Everybody is different. The subject is about meat loss. Not about insulting one's choice in shot placement.

[Piedmont]

The problem with neck shots, other than it being a much smaller target than the thorax, is it is much more mobile. If he moves his head while you are shooting you may inflict a terrible non fatal or slowly fatal wound. Not for me unless I was right on top of him and he was unaware of my presence.

[waksupi]

Some who know it all, just have to wound a few on their own to learn. I pity the animals involved in the lessons. I prefer advise from people who have killed more deer than most people have ever seen.

[starmac]

Just curious, what does a dime look like with 5, 223 holes in it. lol

[white eagle]

45-70 to the original question
that was the question rite before everyone began all this chest banging

[GhostHawk]

How many people you ask, that is how many answers you get. Most of them will be different from others in some way.

You start talking about rifles, your right up there next to God, King, and Country.
Tread carefully.

I will say that I think Rifles are as much chosen by the terrain as they are the people.

Up here in the Dakota's you can see for miles, it is flatter than you can imagine. You want a flat shooting rifle that will reach out there. So we tend to see more 06's, 270's.

Over in Northern Minnesota a long shot might be 50 yards in the Pines. You don't want a rifle that is likely to be deflected by a pine needle or twig. So flat shooting high velocity doesn't work as well as Big, and slow. There are some dirty 30 fans here, but the real killers IMO are the .44's and .45's. And if you find a guy with a .35 Remington, LISTEN. Chances are he has killed more deer than all the rest put together.

[davidheart]

...........And if you find a guy with a .35 Remington, LISTEN. Chances are he has killed more deer than all the rest put together.

I've been looking for a .35 Remington too........ I would gladly replace my 30-30 with a more effective woods guns. :)

As to the dime, I remember seeing the testing targets when my friend was working up his .223 load for perfect OAL in his rifle. The largest group was .7 inches. The smallest was .3. 5 shot groups using no rest with only a GI Sling. I think the dime is a great idea, but we may lose a couple as impact flips it off target or otherwise blows it away with each shot. Duct tape to attach it to cardboard though sounds like a fun afternoon....... hmmmmmm.......... :bigsmyl2:

[FLHTC]

I know too many hunters that can't shoot for beans. They clean the rifle and it never comes out all year. We here are different and shoot more so I direct nothing at you fellas. But I see it in the field.
Yes, shot placement is where it is but most off my revolver shots are off hand. Deer do not appear where I have a rest most of the time. It is rare that I can find support. I would love neck shots but you need to get real. Without a rest, you can't hit a neck with a rifle. Moving deer are worse for a neck shot.
When you find as many dead deer as I do from the "expert shots" around here you need to stop shooting from the key board. I shot deer from my shooting bench but still off hand since they were not out front. Silly suckers do not play by rules.
Shoot from an elevated house over a food plot, coffee and heaters for comfort. Get your butt freezing once.
Stalking and get your white hunter to place sticks. Does not work with white tails so easy.
To hit deer in the neck at 50 yards means you can hit a steel ram off hand at 500 meters every shot off hand.

Sorry 44man, I wasn't trying to categorize anyone. I was simply stating what I do. I am partial to shooting fields and I much prefer a neck shot. No hot coffee or tree house, just a ladder stand with a padded rest.

[FLHTC]

The problem with neck shots, other than it being a much smaller target than the thorax, is it is much more mobile. If he moves his head while you are shooting you may inflict a terrible non fatal or slowly fatal wound. Not for me unless I was right on top of him and he was unaware of my presence.

There is no problem with neck shots. Like I mentioned, the hydrostatic shock will destroy the spinal cord, regardless of where the bullet passes through. If there is a terrible wound in the neck, the deer will be paralyzed from the entry wound to the tip of it's tail from the hydrostatic shock. Never had one to prove different.

[FLHTC]

I've been looking for a .35 Remington too........ I would gladly replace my 30-30 with a more effective woods guns. :)

As to the dime, I remember seeing the testing targets when my friend was working up his .223 load for perfect OAL in his rifle. The largest group was .7 inches. The smallest was .3. 5 shot groups using no rest with only a GI Sling. I think the dime is a great idea, but we may lose a couple as impact flips it off target or otherwise blows it away with each shot. Duct tape to attach it to cardboard though sounds like a fun afternoon....... hmmmmmm.......... :bigsmyl2:

There's no point in explaining to those who will never listen to anyone who hasn't killed more deer than anyone in the world. [smilie=l:
If you don't have a five digit post count, you must be wrong.

[roverboy]

Just curious, what does a dime look like with 5, 223 holes in it. lol

Probably blowed all to ****.

[dk17hmr]

I have found that I waste a lot less meat when I don't shoot them in the meat. Under the right circumstances I'm not against head shooting...I don't advocate that for everyone actually very few people I suggest it to. Realistically behind the shoulders in the rib doesn't waste meat....flank/rib meat is usable but how many people really use it....I bet if you don't process your own meat I'm guessing you don't get your flank anyways.

I have killed most of my big game animals with jacketed high velocity bullets from 223 to 338 caliber. The few I have killed with a 30-06 and cast bullets get shot through the shoulder, there isn't much on an antelopes front end to loose and I haven't noticed less meat in the cooler shooting them in the shoulders or in the ribs.

Depending on the animal I am shooting depends where I want to hit them. Antelope have an amazing will to live after taking a hit to the chest and often go further than they should. So I like to bust the shoulders if a head shot doesn't feel right when the safety comes off. Elk and deer, depending on the terrain and visibility I either shoot them in the heart/lungs....if its rough country I like to bust shoulders. Meat lose is a part of the game and I don't know if there really is a best caliber for minimizing it....shot placement is the key.

[Vopie]

Sorry but no more neck shots for me! Over lead a big buck running off the side of a mtn. Took him through the neck with a 350 rem mag. Buck went down and was back up and over the mtn. in a flash. After tracking him over the mtn. and into a vly which took us a couple of hrs. but only took him mins. in his death run, found that the bullet opened up this neck like a bomb. Spines are little targets surrounded by a lot of tuff narrelly meat. Nothing in this world perfect, shot placements, angles, the unseen branch, or the deer's desire to escape and live. Hopefully we do are best to kill quickly and humanely, and if something goes wrong then hopefully we all work our hardest to recover our game. Jim

[Wolfer]

I know this is off topic but I've always been far more concerned with losing the deer than the meat lost on the deer.

[kbstenberg]

I hate to burst any ones bubble. Each shot is different. Angles, distances, brush interfearance. The list goes on.

[Wolfer]

I hate to burst any ones bubble. Each shot is different. Angles, distances, brush interfearance. The list goes on.

YES! I've always had to take the shot they gave me or pass on the shot.

[MT Beard]

May not be the most popular view on here. But if you're using J-words, spend a few extra dollars and use Barnes TSX bullets for hunting. Last year I shot a deer at 30 yards with a 7mm-08, the load was a 120tsx moving at 3110fps (chronographed). The bullet took out 2 inches of lower jaw bone, entered the neck in the throat patch and smashed two vertebrae before exiting with a nice X in the hide. That was the first deer I've shot in the neck, and I did because I was kneeling and the deer was stationary looking at me. As was mentioned above it was a shot I felt very good about. Anyhow, there was almost no meat loss, maybe 2 lbs, the meat that was beyond recovery was peppered with itty bitty bone fragments. Zero bloodshot. If that had been a lead core bullet, I'm positive there would have been much more meat lost. I've noticed this on many critters and my friends have too. I haven't killed a deer with a cast bullet, so my observations are limited to jacketed (interlocks, partitions) and monolithics (barnes)
I believe bloodshot/meat loss is caused by bullets that fragment and send itty bitty bits all over, not necessarily velocity. I imagine this applies to cast and jacketed bullets equally, goodsteel's post on the most effective projectile in the world comes to mind.

[robg]

diddnt john barsnes reckon in one article 2500 was the max speed needed

[MT Beard]

I think that 2500fps should get just about any slug to start expanding. What happens when it hits a game animal will still come down to the construction/composition of the bullet though.

[Blue2]

A bit of a deviation from the intent of the initial question. ----- In the same manner as some people have tried using "cut" shotshells as a shotgun slug . When I was a younger man I had often come across military FMJ ammo which had the tip ground back to expose the lead core so as to look like a lead tip hunting round. Up in my neck of the woods it is illegal to hunt with FMJ ammo.
I was aware that there is some danger in doing this as the lead core could on occassion squirt out of the bullet and leave the jacket behind in the bore causing an obstruction. In any event I decided I wanted to try this in a 223 Rem. bolt gun and see what it might do on a groundhog . I would check that after each round was fired that the bore was indeed "clear". A couple of shots were fired with each bullet having more lead tip exposed than the last. The last shot I fired was at a groundhog about 50 yards away. It produced the most destruction I have ever seen on an animal.I fired at the head and everything down to behind the shoulders was pretty much vaporized with a cloud of fur floating in the air. I had never seen anything this explosive in a regular varmint or "SX" type bullet fired in even larger cartridges like the 22-250 or 6mm varmint loads.
That was the last time I ever fired one of those ground-back army bullets out of a rifle.

[Brett Ross]

Just behind the shoulder for me. No expert but my lojic is, it's a bit more forgiving. Miss forward, hopfully breaks down the shoulder . Miss a bit back, still gets the lungs. I have only taken one deer with a rifle ( Iowa is shotgun only, again) the rest have been shotgun slugs. Less accuracy , leads to the search for bigger vitals. By the way, slugs lose very little meat, low vol, heavy projectile, I guess.
Tony

[NoAngel]

75g Amax or a 70g Barnes TSX in a .223 in the head or at the base of the skull. Zero meat loss, zero tracking IF you do put it where it belongs.
My CZ527 will put that load into a quarter all day long.
Pick your shots RESPONSIBLY and you shut his nervous system down, it works.

[altheating]

The neck shot picture in post #52 looks like it took out the windpipe and not the spine. Yea, the deer is dead, but how long did it take? I would like to see where the entry hole really is. I would be willing to bet that there are a good number of hunters out there who couldn't even point to where the spine is located on the neck of a deer. It's pretty easy if the deer is facing you, not so easy if it's broadside or quartering to or away. We get a lot of down state hunters that come "north" to hunt deer here in New York, we get to see the results of them aiming at the neck, and a whole lot of wounded deer running around with jaws hanging down from a piss poor neck shot. And to make matters worse if the deer doesn't drop its considered a "miss" and their off to wound another. After talking to many of them over the years I get the impression their deer kill is more for bragging rights than anything else. Not all of them but a good number of them.
I will continue to aim for the pie plate sized target that holds the heart and lungs! I will continue to teach new hunters to do the same. I would rather waste a couple pounds of fantastic shoulder steak than loose a whole deer to the coyotes.

[dk17hmr]

I will continue to aim for the pie plate sized target that holds the heart and lungs! I will continue to teach new hunters to do the same. I would rather waste a couple pounds of fantastic shoulder steak than loose a whole deer to the coyotes.

I believe that is the best for a new hunter and for someone that doesn't know their rifle/handgun/shotgun very well. That's the only shot I even attempt to draw my bow back on for good reason....not that I don't know my equipment really well just that is the best place to hit them with a broadhead. Under ideal conditions I take different shots as already stated with my rifles, but I don't begrudge anyone from popping the lungs when the head wasn't moving and the animal was calm....there have been plenty of animals I could have taken a different shot on but slipped the bullet behind the front shoulder.

It has been said a lot already but you waste a whole lot more meat on a deer you cant recover.

[davidheart]

A bit of a deviation from the intent of the initial question. ----- In the same manner as some people have tried using "cut" shotshells as a shotgun slug . When I was a younger man I had often come across military FMJ ammo which had the tip ground back to expose the lead core so as to look like a lead tip hunting round. Up in my neck of the woods it is illegal to hunt with FMJ ammo......

They tested this in "the Box 'o Truth" and the ground down FMJ bullets expanded wonderfully with no jacket separation. Scroll down to the 30-06 tests: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-32-dum-dum-bullets-and-the-box-otruth/


The neck shot picture in post #52 looks like it took out the windpipe and not the spine. Yea, the deer is dead, but how long did it take? I would like to see where the entry hole really is. I would be willing to bet that there are a good number of hunters out there who couldn't even point to where the spine is located on the neck of a deer. It's pretty easy if the deer is facing you, not so easy if it's broadside or quartering to or away. ....

You're correct. I took a picture of where the windpipe blew out before I quartered the deer because that's where the most damage was seen. Shot was broadside. I was at an angle looking down at the deer. He dropped IMMEDIATELY. Took about 2 'breaths' and expired.

I'm not every hunter and I'm not telling everybody to do this. I own a goat farm and I'm very well acquainted with anatomy of a ruminant. But I understand MY limits. Hopefully other's understand their limits as well.

[MT Beard]

I've seen too many deer missing the lower jaw or that run off and start coughing to recommend anyone take a head or neck shot. (But I've also seen a few guys line up on a broadside standing deer with a scoped rifle at less than 100yds and shoot them right in the butt or guts). I have my days and if I'm confident in myself and my equipment I'll take a head or neck shot, otherwise I'll take a 'more secure' shot or not shoot at all. Still comes down to ethics, skill/experience. (and testing, shoot your 'chosen load' into whatever media you can find and see how it does, lots of different media...and practice).

Exactly! I shoot a lot and shoot at life sized deer targets from hunting positions. Last year I passed on a very large buck at 50yds because I wasn't confident that it would work out well. I used to occasionally hunt with a fella that refused to practice. After watching him botch shots on two stationary deer (one in the legs, one in the paunch) I quit hunting with him. Awful experiences. I wish more hunters would practice a lot more. It is quite telling that in the summer the range is almost always deserted, but 1-2 weeks before the season it is hard to find a bench. :mad:

[waksupi]

Wow, we could start another thread named: "Who is the all time best boxer?" or "Whats the best vehicle to own" etc, etc. :veryconfu I've seen too many deer missing the lower jaw or that run off and start coughing to recommend anyone take a head or neck shot. (But I've also seen a few guys line up on a broadside standing deer with a scoped rifle at less than 100yds and shoot them right in the butt or guts). I have my days and if I'm confident in myself and my equipment I'll take a head or neck shot, otherwise I'll take a 'more secure' shot or not shoot at all. Still comes down to ethics, skill/experience. (and testing, shoot your 'chosen load' into whatever media you can find and see how it does, lots of different media...and practice).

Agreed. We see people brag about their rifle shooting into a quarter inch at 100 yards. Seriously, do they carry a benchrest with them when hunting? I don't care who they are, or think they are, they ain't that good.

[white eagle]

Wow, we could start another thread named: "Who is the all time best boxer?" or "Whats the best vehicle to own" etc, etc. :veryconfu I've seen too many deer missing the lower jaw or that run off and start coughing to recommend anyone take a head or neck shot. (But I've also seen a few guys line up on a broadside standing deer with a scoped rifle at less than 100yds and shoot them right in the butt or guts). I have my days and if I'm confident in myself and my equipment I'll take a head or neck shot, otherwise I'll take a 'more secure' shot or not shoot at all. Still comes down to ethics, skill/experience. (and testing, shoot your 'chosen load' into whatever media you can find and see how it does, lots of different media...and practice).

rite on
I believe you hit the nail on the head
personally shooting small groups translates into confidence in the field when shooting game
I believe that makes a world a difference in your hunting,shooting
then there are the guys that open their gun case once a year for the hunt those poor souls are the cause of more wounded non recovered game than a guy who shoots his rifle into dime sized groups

[Wolfer]

Personally I use a bench while working up loads and adjusting sights. All other shooting is done from field positions.
Its a very rare event that I shoot a deer or coyote without a rest. Off my knees with my back to a tree, kneeling or prone in a sling. When stalking I sometimes take a rest on the side of a tree. My climber has a rail. My ladder stand doesn't but I pull my knee up and use that.

The trick is to practice braced field position shots until you find what works for you. Within a few seconds of seeing game I can be in a position that I know I can shoot from.
I do practice offhand just for fun but rarely have to use it in the field.

In my younger days I may have been more of a spray and pray shooter but anymore I don't shoot unless I'm sure I can make the shot.
With lots of practice though they only have to give me a small window and I'll have a shot that I can make.

P.S. most of those guys who shoot dime sized groups from the bench will see them open up considerably from field positions.

[MT Beard]

The trick is to practice braced field position shots until you find what works for you. Within a few seconds of seeing game I can be in a position that I know I can shoot from.
I do practice offhand just for fun but rarely have to use it in the field.


Couldn't agree more with you! I practice field position shooting at 100 yards. For me this works well and the last 9 deer I've killed have all been under 50 yards. Offhand, kneeling, and sitting are what I practice 95% of the time. On my good days I'll land offhand killing shots 8-9 times out of 10, not good enough for me to take that shot at an un-injured animal.
My offhand practice came in very handy this year. My buddy, not the one I mentioned previously, shot underneath an antelope buck and destroyed the offside foreleg at the joint. It is amazing how well, and far, they can move with a leg flopping around. Anyhow, we split up to look for it. I happened to come up on him bedded down about 80 yards off, we saw each other at the same time and he got up and started running. He was headed towards the edge of a bench and there was no time for anything else but an offhand shot, which I took, and killed him with a shot through the lungs. Without my preseason practice the outcome may have been different. For me the time and money associated with practice is well worth it to have confidence in my shooting and knowing what shots I can and cannot make.

[AZ-JIM]

No 2 shots will ever be the same with jacketed or cast....ever.
There are too many variables, changes in angle in any 3 planes you want to imagine, distance, bullet speed at impact, hits on bone etc. At the start of this thread a few guys say anything in .30 has destroyed alot of meat, as in they would shy away from it. The deer I shot last year with a .308 and 165 grain jsp's at 100 yards, broke 1 rib going in destroyed both lungs, broke 2 ribs going out, had an exit hole the size of a quarter and that deer went 15 feet and fell over. 20 minutes later I shot a coyote at 50 yards with the exact same round and it had an exit hole I could put my fist in. There are bullets that will perform different than others but to say which one is "best" there is no right answer

az-jim

[davidheart]

I don't know if I already mentioned this but a friend of mine put down a medium sized doe the other day. (about 70lbs live weight) He brought it over so I could teach him how to butcher a "large animal". After putting it up on the gambrel and opening it up I found it did little to no meat loss. He used a 30-30 "Deer Thug" bullet.

I think shot placement was the key. He shot directly behind the leg. It broke one rib on entry, destroyed the heart, slide through the ribs on exit. Dead deer in "30 yards" he told me. I was able to process the meat almost right up to the hole. Lost about 1lb of bloodshot meat thrown to my dogs.

[Alan in GA]

All meat loss hinges on bullet/ boolit construction ONLY, never caliber. One caliber with the wrong boolit will lose animals while a Boolit change will destroy it. Does not matter how big or small it is.
You are better off finding the bullet/boolit that works for what you shoot. The 30 will do anything from lost to ruin.

Agree, the reason I used to use 150 grain j- word bullets in my .270 Win instead of 130's [factory and component bullets]. Bullet design/weight/construction, etc, makes the difference as well as shot placement.

[44man]

Sorry 44man, I wasn't trying to categorize anyone. I was simply stating what I do. I am partial to shooting fields and I much prefer a neck shot. No hot coffee or tree house, just a ladder stand with a padded rest.
I wasn't directing at anyone either. Most are at those I see in the field. I hate the TV shows too.
Watched one where a huge buck was shot and the guy says, We will look in the morning and it was about 90* in the shade. It took until noon to find so it was bloated.
I found 12 dead deer on a neighbors land one year and we had snow on the ground. They use rifles too big and if a deer does not drop, they don't even look. Found a gut shot deer right under a tree stand, just left it because he didn't want to clean it. I have seen deer with jaws and hooves shot off.
I have lost deer, good hits, wrong boolit. I quit hunting until I find it or not, even if it takes all day. At evening if it gets dark I get my fishing lantern and don't quit until I have it.
I don't take head shots even if rested with a good rifle. All the deer has to do is hear a noise and move his head. You only have a few inches to shoot at.
Yeah, I was a varmint hunter and head shot chucks better then 600 yards. I shot with a sling in the army and won the company trophy with the M1 on the 500 yard KD range. I had one shot out of the X. Deer deserve some consideration. I have hit pop cans at 200 yards with revolvers from bags but I am not going to shoot at the head, you just don't know what he will do before a boolit gets there. I have made neck shots and don't like them, good meat for burger.
Here is what a 22 BHN WLN boolit from a .44 will do. 123516 Guys want a soft HP???? The shoulder was also blood shot.
The OP wants to minimize damage and that is not an easy question. Shoot behind the shoulder, get both lungs. 123517 To show how hard it is to predict, this was from my .475, much more powerful and a heavier boolit. Why was the .44 worse?

[FLHTC]

I never knew the lethality of a neck shot until I started taking them. I've dropped them with 22 Hornets through the neck. Some can say that they saw mortal wounds, tearing half the neck away with the deer still escaping but I don't buy it. The brain can work the muscles with half the heart blown away but you shock that spinal cord and they're down for the count, every time. I shoot from a 17' ladder stand with a wrap around padded rest and can easily pick my shot. I'm not into shooting running deer and I wait for my neck shot, otherwise I don't take it. I'm not into tracking deer either. I'm not young and cannot safely drag a deer for health reasons so I can't afford to have them run. For me, neck shots keep that from happening. Even if the deer decides to move, he had better do it fast because he only has one 1/8 of a second to live after I squeeze the trigger.

[44man]

I have been quite taken by the big bore revolvers. The .44 always works but deer can make 30 yards. Since I started using the .475 and .500 JRH, I actually have less meat damage and almost every deer is on the ground at the shot, The 6 point this year made 20 yards. The 8 point was hit behind the shoulders at 50 yards and went right down.
I did have to make half the nose a little softer on the JRH because it was a hole punch.
What it looks like is the faster the deer goes down, the less blood shot you will have.
I am asked a lot why such big guns but they are proving out.
Same as my .54 Hawken, just a RB but when it goes off, the deer is down.
When it comes to rifles, I sold the .280, just too messy. I like the 6.5 Swede better, never shot cast from it though.

[44man]

I am not up to using a .454, .460 or .500 S&W though, just a much harder time regulating the right boolit because they are too fast. You can go from a poked hole to complete destruction.
I can't tell you about cast in a rifle at all but would consider a .35 Rem a good choice.
With jacketed factory loads you even need to watch a 30-30, seen horrendous damage done by them.

[dragon813gt]

I will continue to aim for the pie plate sized target that holds the heart and lungs! I will continue to teach new hunters to do the same. I would rather waste a couple pounds of fantastic shoulder steak than loose a whole deer to the coyotes.

Same here. It's really the only option during archery season. A neck shot w/ a bow will put it down quick. But the one I had was inadvertent. The deer jumped the string and it went from a broadside shot to head on. The bolt almost came out the rear end.

W/ rifles I aim for the same spot. We have a short two week season so I'm not about to change where I aim. I'm also inclined to take out a shoulder if the deer can run into an area that will make retrieval a real pain or impossibility. I'd rather anchor it in place and lose some meat. This year I'm hunting w/ a 35 Remington. Haven't seen anything yet but there is over a week left in the season.

[davidheart]

... I am asked a lot why such big guns but they are proving out.....

Well if I decided to shoot revolvers exclusively for deer I'd want a large bore as well. You're sending a 44 caliber boolit 1400 fps probably no further than 75 yards. Seems to make sense. Personally I couldn't see myself feasibly hunting with a revolver. I can 'imagine' myself doing it, but in practice I'm not there yet.


Same here. It's really the only option during archery season. A neck shot w/ a bow will put it down quick....

Where I hear somebody say they would aim for a neck shot with a bow my brain explodes.

[44man]

Well if I decided to shoot revolvers exclusively for deer I'd want a large bore as well. You're sending a 44 caliber boolit 1400 fps probably no further than 75 yards. Seems to make sense. Personally I couldn't see myself feasibly hunting with a revolver. I can 'imagine' myself doing it, but in practice I'm not there yet.



Where I hear somebody say they would aim for a neck shot with a bow my brain explodes.
I use two boolits in my .44, the 310 Lee and my 330 gr WLN type, cast hard. They run around 1316 fps. I have taken deer over 120 yards. I use a red dot.
You can do it.

[Alan in GA]

Be aware that 'high lung' shots with hard cast bullet may kill a deer but might NOT leave a blood trail as lungs retain blood.
Ruger Redhawk/ 250 GE Keith SWC, 35 yard shot high lung= buck ran 100 yards and fell dead. ALL blood at that spot, blood exiting body only after he dropped on his side. Aim low for heart/lungs.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Shot placement and bullet construction are key. Use a relatively stout bullet and shoot them in the ribs. You may lose 1 or 2 ribs, but I never liked ribs enough to care about 1 or 2 being lost.

[nanuk]

for me, I only take broadside shots into the center/lower half of the front quarter of standing game.

there is little meat loss. Game ribs have little meat on them, and a couple handfuls of meat/fat is a small price to pay for a high percentage kill shot.

I now pass on all other shots, unless I have a rock steady rest, ample time to set up and relax, and a stationary animal.

I use heavy for caliber projectiles and don't push them to the max... or even close. Accuracy is far more important than velocity.

I think 2400fps impact velocity is the top end for consistant performance with standard C&C bullets.

as for boolits, I think there are too many variables to make blanket statements.

it works for me.
YMMV

[44man]

You fellas talk more sense as we came along. I don't save ribs, did the boil off fat stuff before BBQ and not enough meat to make the effort. The fat on the ribs is a curse.
I did collect all the fat from a deer once and rendered it, hoping for something to use in a boolit lube but it was like candle wax. I put the huge round out and birds ate the thing quick. I love the birds.