Shortening the 45/70 case ...................

[Jack Stanley]

I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it but the idea comes to me to shorten the 45/70 case to 1.800 or a little less . The reason would be to be able to use a Marlin model 1895 rifle in the "new" way the DNR is allowing rifles around here .

The current loads I use for two different styles of bullet like an overall length of 2.465 for accuracy . The bullets are a three hundred sixty grain LBT mould and a Lyman 457193 that drops around four hundred thirty grains . The Lyman bullet I think could be loaded to the same length regardless of a shorter case . The LBT might not work that way .

Has anyone here ever worked with a Marlin like this and how did it turn out for you ?

Thanks , Jack

[W.R.Buchanan]

Why would you need to do this? What is the new way, and who is the DNR?

Randy

[Reg]

I guess I don't understand your desire to shorten the brass case.
The shown overall length of the 45-70 in the Marlin is listed as 2.550", feeds well in the several I have played with. You are saying you are getting optimum accuracy with a OAL of 2.465", quite a bit shorter than the listed 2.550.
Looks like if anything you might want longer brass but then again you accomplish the same thing by seating bullets out if you wanted a longer OAL.
What are these "new DNR " regulations you speak of ?
Do keep in mind that by using what might be considered a standard load you will raise pressures by shorting the case and seating the bullet back requiring you to come up with different loads. I.E. you cannot use 458 Win. Mag loads in a 458x 2".
Also another consideration is that dropping the load to adapt to the shorter case performance will drop off.

[C. Latch]

I think he means he's in Michigan and they have some weird new rule about what sort of centerfire rifle you can hunt with.


FWIW I think a .444 Marlin shortened to be MI-legal would make a darned near perfect cast-bullet round. YMMV.

[Hamish]

http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/308650-45-70-1-8-indiana-deer-legal.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?165666-Question-On-Minimum-45-70-COAL

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/hr-centerfire-rifles/making-4570-legal-indiana-deer-hunting/

[Cornbread]

How long is the Hornady Lever revolution brass? It is shorter than regular 45-70 brass but still works just fine in my Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun. I can go take a caliper to a piece of it. Give me a second and I'll post back with how long those are.

I get 2.03" for the Hornady lever revolution brass that I have shot once and reloaded twice since then and have not ever trimmed it.

Could you just get a 454 Casull lever action? That would basically be a 45-70 light if you loaded it right.

[Jack Stanley]

Thanks Hamish , one of those links mentioned what I was thinking of , Shortening the case and leaving the overall length the same . To my simple way of thinking the powder chamber is the same so pressures aren't likely to increase . Unless having three hundred thousanths less of brass holding on is going to be a problem .

I could just use my forty four lever action , but then I'd have to take it back from the girl I loaned it to so she could hunt ...... naaahhh , don't think I'll do that . I could go and buy a Bushmaster upper , ammo , new loading dies ........... naaahhhh , don't think I'll do that . I thought of moving west of the big muddy river into the west where the hunting regulations all make sense . But that isn't going to happen until my wife passes on unless of course leaving her here is an option........... naaahhh I don't think I'll do that either . C. Latch has it right , some weird new law that allows certain rifles in this area . It was enough to make me think of hunting again But if shortening the case and leaving the bullet long in a no-go I can leave it alone . I hear the licenses fees for deer are over fifty bucks this year anyway .

Thanks guys , Jack

[Rick Hodges]

Southern Michigan used to be a shotgun/muzzleloader/straight walled pistol only zone for firearm deer season. This year they adapted similar rules to Indiana and will allow pistol caliber rifles...with straight walled cases no more than 1.8" long.

The idea is to take a 45/70 and make it legal for deer in southern Michigan. I think I will just use my muzzle loader.

[Reg]

Southern Michigan used to be a shotgun/muzzleloader/straight walled pistol only zone for firearm deer season. This year they adapted similar rules to Indiana and will allow pistol caliber rifles...with straight walled cases no more than 1.8" long.

The idea is to take a 45/70 and make it legal for deer in southern Michigan. I think I will just use my muzzle loader.

Ahhhh soooo. I see.

You could give it a shot but then again if they see the headstamp of 45-70 would they call it a rifle cartridge instead of a called for pistol cartridge?

[Jack Stanley]

I don't know Reg , I am only concerned right now with how someone else's project turned out . It looks like I would be plowing new ground . Or ....... if I decide to hunt I could just use the 870 and those Remington sabots that " murderlize" everything around the impact area .

Jack

[country gent]

With a case .300 to short there will be a couple possible issues to deal with to make it work right and well. First a seating die will need to be faced back to allow crimps to be applied to the shortened brass cases. Grease grooves may be exposed allowing for dirt to accumuate. While the bullet will be loaded to same overall length .300 more will be exposed to full chamber dia with out the case to fill it also, this may allow the lead bullt to swage up to chamber dia then be swaged back down to groove dia resulting in lead rings in the chamber. It can be made to work and with the proper alloy, technique and procedures should produce accurate ammo to the same standard as full cases. Its finding those that take the time and effort.

[Reg]

I would play with the concept if only to see how it would work out. The only glitch I could see is if there is "personal" interpretation of the written law involved. If they say any straight wall case not to exceed 1.8"--- period, I think you could easily come up with a round that should preform very well, better than any slug any day. If you get checked and the DNR see's 45-70 as the head stamp and being typical of what you see out there holding up the kings law they raise a fuss, you might have to prove something in court-- it could get expensive and they don't care because you will pick up the tab on both ends.
We have a bit of the same thing going on here. Up until this year we could use ground blinds in full camo. Here on the flats it is sometimes the only way you can get close to game unless you like shooting up to 500 yards and sometimes beyond. I personally will not shoot game beyond 200 yards and prefer less. Anyway this year you must have blaze orange on all sides of the ground blind and it must be "highly visible". The square inches is not stated.
Just what is considered " highly visible " ?.
Yes , deer are color blind but they are also not stupid. One of their survival skills is to note differences-- something not normal or out of place. If everything isn't just exactly perfect they get real leery real quick.
I used a 2" square patch on several sides of the blind and kept them very low. Far as I was concerned it met the letter of the law. Glad I didn't have to prove it, I might have had a problem.
I will bet that next year our collage boys will have it stated exactly and I bet it will be about like hiring a brass band to play while hunting.
Working up your load should not be a problem. Actually right off the top of my head I bet 21 or so grains of 2400 will give you a safe killing load with up to a 405 grain bullet. It is a light load and should prove to be no problem as it is actually a bottom end 44 Mag load, a much smaller capacity case. Have used this load myself in my 1895 and even though it is a candy load I like it. Get clover leaf groups up to 100 yards and I know it has more than enough power to drop a deer if I do my part.
Let us know how things work out.

[wgr]

the short case1.8 in. works well with the 400grain lbtlfn.are the 300grain lbtwfn.

[Jack Stanley]

There's an idea I hadn't thought much of country gent . Now that I have a shooting bench installed in the shed at the hundred yard line I could load at the range so to speak . Now all I need is to find that can of ambition that I left down in the loading room and get after it . I did cast a couple hundred of the LBT slugs the other day and have about a hundred of the heavy Lyman bullets I "need" to use up ;-)

Thanks , Jack

[NoAngel]

Cornbread is dead on. The .454 will get to the bottom end 45/70 loads with ease. I have a single shot that very accurately throws a 340g cast bullet at 1500-1600 fps range. I can certainly get a little more but I don't need it.

[oldred]

How about Starline 45/60 cases? Even these would need .055 trimmed off of the standard length (1.855" IIRC) but they are headstamped as 45/60 so that would eliminate any fuss the law might raise about using the 45/70 round.

[dh2]

Why would you need to do this? What is the new way, and who is the DNR?

Randy

Department of Natural Resources , and some states that allow a straight walled case under length .xxx (normally a pistol cartage) to be used where rifle hunting is not allowed. Ill is the one that comes to mind for me
get some Hornady brass it is short any way

[hickfu]

There is a guy on the Marlin Owners forum that shortens his 45-70 brass just for that reason.. The boolit sticks out of the case a bit but he says it works.

[Djones]

I shoot a 1.790" 45-70 for deer here in Indiana with a standard marlin 1895.

http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/247012-45-70-deer-legal-round-development.html

http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/310396-45-70-deer-legal-year-ii.html

[FLHTC]

If the language in the law refers to the caliber and not necessarily the cartridge, shortening any straight walled case that would propel a bullet of a handgun caliber would be legal. A 45-70 is not a caliber, it's a cartridge. A 444 Marlin and a 44 S&W Special are two separate cartridges but both are 44 caliber.

[Good Cheer]

Reading about the way people have worked around that idiotic reg in Indiana gave me a :bigsmyl2:.
I will be shooting a .458 bore x 24" twist muzzleloader and the powder column is going to be whatever length works best for the distance.

[Motor]

I don't know how doing something like this will make it legal. That would be like making a AR or other semi auto not being able to cycle then using it where semi autos are not allowed. I don't think the DNR officer is going to accept that.

I would think a 45-70 is a 45-70 no matter how long you trim the case in the eyes of the law.

Laws like this are so stupid anyway. WV has a law that states a pistol used for deer must be no less than .357 caliber. Of course this completely ignors the fact that a 9mm Luger (9x19) is a lot more powerfull than a 38 spl which is .357 caliber. Even the DNR officers I have talked to here just shake their heads and say there are a few more laws just as bad as that one.

A .500 S&W has only a 1.625" case length and even shot from a 8"+ pistol barrel is as least equal to in every way a 1895 Marlin 45-70 loading. Does the MI law prohibit the .500?

[Wayne Smith]

Not only that but the 500S&W is a pistol caliber! Mine is an Encore Katadin barrel.