Bayonets

[grumble]

It's been at least a week since I asked a dumb question, so it seems that this is an appropriate time to ask one.

Why do bayonets mount with the sharp edge down? It would seem that greater cutting/ripping force could be applied if the sharp edge of the blade pointed upward.

I know that some worldwide convention or another ruled that double sided bayonets were not to be used; is it from that sort of world consensus about what was a good or bad way to kill people that caused the sharp edge to face downward?

End of dumb questions for this week. At least on these threads.

[BruceB]

Interesting question.

Answer: Some DO mount with the edge up, as in certain AKs I've seen. The REAL answer is that there are zillions of designs from as many places, and you can find ANYTHING in the mixture. Some blades are double-edged, some are triple-edged, some are wavy, some are designed as entrenching tools, some have bottle-openers....any wild-assed dream design we can make up was thought of long ago. Did the sleazy unwashed French make one with a corkscrew???? Wouldn't surprise me.

How about the "spike" bayonet for the #4 Mk1/2 Rifles, with NO edges? It was officially described in print as being "Designed to penetrate GERMAN overcoats" (my capitals on "German"). Political correctness was not very high on the list at that time, evidently.

[StarMetal]

And then there was the Swiss or Swede bayonet with the one edge being saw-bladed and the Germans just threw a fit over that.

Joe

[NVcurmudgeon]

My 1948 Yugo Mauser bayonet is partly double edged, about two inches of the top edge is sharpened. Maybe the reason for most bayonets having the sharp edge on the bottom is for when the bayonet is doing its primary task-being a camp knife!

[Frank46]

My steyr 1886 portigese kropatschek has the blade mounted on the side. If I remember the sharp side is on the right. Bayonet is almost as long as the bbl. Frank

[brimic]

I have one for a czech 98/22 that has the edge up, the ones I have for turks and M48s are edge down. I particularly like the sharp pointy thing that mouns on a 91/30 mosin nagant.


The sawback bayonets used by sappers and engineers were frowned upon pretty badly. The serrations would rip and tear viceral material out when withdrawn. I'm not exactly sure how many people actually would survive being bayonetted with a standard or sawback blade with WWI medical technology though anyway.

Picture of a Swiss engineer's bayonet. http://olegvolk.net/gallery/blades/2bayonets

[KCSO]

We bohunks got it right!

All our bayonets mount with the cutting edge up!

[Char-Gar]

I am going to hazard a guess..but it is drawn from other information that is not a guess.

The sabers and swords that we govt issue to US troops were in the main dull. The steel was hardened with the "cutting edge" dull. There was always some folks who felt those weapons should be razor sharp and they were the dickens to try and sharpen as they didn't even have a decent bevel that would lend itself to being sharpened. The weapons were used as thrusting weapons instead of cutting weapons so the issue was really not that imortant. You could skewer an enemy pretty well, with a sword/saber with blunt cutting edges..all you need is a decent point.

When it was all said and done, the verdict always came back that a sharp saber or sword was more of a danger to the solider, his horse and friendlies around him then it would be to an enemy.

I would guess the same reason would apply to having the cutting edge of a bayonet down instead of up.

[grumble]

Interesting comments all. And a relief, too -- the variation in comments means that maybe this isn't another of those things that everyone seems to know except me. <GGG> I was afraid that this was something that every Marine and Army Ranger learned in basic training.

As one who has never had any military bayonet training, I don't know what the training consists of except stabbing sandbags like I see in movies. For those of you who've gone through that training, is slashing part of it? Are bayonets sharpened in the field for reasons other than peeling potatos and sharpening tent pegs?

[StarMetal]

From what I've researched the sharp edge up provides for more striking angles.

Joe

[BruceB]

Training in bayonet use in the Canadian Army was rather rudimentary. It was considered far more "sporting" (and likely) to slap another 20-round magazine into the FN-C1 and blast 'em, than to try fencing with the enemy.

However, we did indeed spend some time messing with the pointy rifle. The most-common maneuver was the "left-parry, buttstroke", where the enemy's rifle was beaten to the side out of his thrust line with one's own rifle, and the rotating motion of the rifle continued so as to introduce the rifle butt to his chops at high speed. The butt is a more-persuasive instrument than is the bayonet, I suspect. (I once owned a British Snider breechloader from around 1870 with a pair of DEEP impressions in the top of its butt, which same were identified by my dentist as the clear impressions of some unfortunate soul's incisor teeth....in hard walnut! I wish THAT rifle could have talked, as the local RCMP identification technician, a good friend of mine, also detected human blood around the lockplate and under the buttplate, too.)

I, however, am a left-hander, and it was comical seeing people trying to counter my RIGHT-parry/buttstroke after the preceding fifteen guys all tried to get them from the other side.

The real purpose of bayonet training in our case, and in most armies of today, I suspect, was to imprint in the trainee the willingness to close with the enemy and kill him with great personal violence, and to aid the realization that battle really is the willingness to kill even at ranges where blood and guts gets on the hands and in the teeth. In all bayonet classes, the question was screamed repeatedly by the NCOs: "WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE BAYONET?!?!?" To which we earnest young souls would scream back, "TO KILL! TO KILL! TO KILL!!!!" Yep, a few weeks out of high school, and perfectly ready to run around and violently dissect our fellow humans with a dull blade....

[nvbirdman]

In the IDEAL world.
You would not use your bayonet unless you were out of ammo.
Your opponent would not be close enough unless he was also out of ammo.
You would carry your weapon at port arms in order to block his thrusts.
After blocking a thrust, your bayonet would be properly positioned for a slashing counter attack.
In the REAL world.
Some bozo who has never been in combat said "This way looks right to me."

[Four Fingers of Death]

The bayonet is primarily a stabbing weapon, not a cutting one. As you thrust the blade into the torso and the second place winner falls, you want to continue forward, not hang around. As he falls, you withdraw the blade. preferably by firing a shot which will free the blade. If the edge was facing up, it would dig in and begin to cut. You would then have to stop and possibly reverse back and get the durn thing out. That's why the top is not only blunt, but invariable reasonably wide and well rounded and there is a groove down the lenght of the blade to let blood out and air in, so that the blade is assisted out by 'floating.'

Sabres are blunt because they were usually used from horseback and invarably hit with a huge amount of force. If blunt they hack, stun and smash. If they were razor sarp they might dig in too deep and stick in the wound. You don't want to dismount to retrieve it and with other nasties on horseback with similar weapons, you might need it before the day is out.

That's why Kar bars and similar fighting knives are not usually razor sharp.

Sick science, but it all goes out the window, beacuse if you look at lots of old pictures of soiliers at the battlefront, you will see them sharpening their blades. Unless you are cutting throats or slicing tomatoes, you are better served with a blunter blade on a bayonet or sabre. I'd like an edge for a fighting knife however as it also allows you to hack and without the weight of the rifle attached it would improve the odds, I'm feeling.

The No4 spike bayonet saw a lot of Germans off very effectively.

[StarMetal]

I've read that sabers were hard to sharpen. That the sides of the saber blade are harden pretty hard while the edge is sharp. I also read that by the time the saber came into use the soldier wore more clothing and other gear and apparel that prevented the blade from cutting and it was advised in training to thrust rather then to try to cut. Now the Japanese Samuri sword I can gaurantee you is razor sharp!!

Joe

[Char-Gar]

I have about a half dozen US sabers..Mostly the 1860 Light Cavalry model but a couple of the older heavier "Wrist Breakers". All of these sabers are blunt with the edge being a "U" and not a "V". They were not intended to be sharpened.

4fingermick's input is the best reasoning I have had heard on this subject. The Cavalry saber was pretty much obsolete by the time of the American Civil War with the Colt revolver being it's favored replacment.

The last US Cavalry saber was a knock off of the British straight saber. U.S. studies found the saber was most often used to stab rather than hack as it was designed. The straight blade was much easier to remove from the enemy than the curved hacking blade.

The original doctrine behind the curved saber was to hack at fleeing soldiers on foot. It really was not a weapon for a frontal assault or personal combat.

[brimic]

A Marine who in our hunting camp who was old enough to have trained with the M1 showed me how they used them for close up use. Most of the close up work involved smacking the groin, under the chin, or the side of the head with the big heavy buttstock of the M1, the bayonet goes in the guts where there aren't any bones to get in the way. I don't remember him talking about or showing me any kind of slashing with the bayonet. As someone else mentioned, he held it a port arms, paried to the left followed by the big end of the rifle coming around real fast.

[Urny]

I don't know what the current training doctrine for use of the bayonet is, but in the summer of 1965 at Fort Ord, California, the emphasis was definately on horizontal butt stroke, as we were told God intended, or parry and slash. Little time was devoted to the use of the bayonet as a pike. The bayonets we were issued were sharp enough to be used as utility cutting instruments, but if you had something else available, the bayonet would be a distant second choice for that use.

[StarMetal]

I believe the saber was originally used to slash and thrust as there is quite an extensive saber fencing study.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Joe..There are sabers and there are sabers. By definition a sword has two cutting edges and a saber but one. Sabers do not need to have a curve to be sabers although most often they were. The better to slash you with my dear.

There are fencing sabers and they are a regular part of fencing. The technique is very different from the foil and is mostly slashing with some thrusting. A saber match is quite fast, and very interesting to watch. Compared to cavalry fencing sabers are feather light and well balanced.

The Germans and their dueling societies turned saber dueling into a high art.

However..the US Cavarly saber is not a fencing weapon. Just pick one in your hand and feel the balance..there are truly unwieldy as a fencing weapon. There designed with the length, weight to hack an enemy on foot from the back of a horse.

To certain there was some instruction on how to use the saber in personel combat because before repeating arms, that may be all the cavalryman had to defend himself, should he become unhorsed. But they were not designed and not truly suitable for such a purpose. They would be better than looking for a rock or stick.

Cavalry doctrine evolved over the centuries. By the time of the AMerican Revolutionary war, the principal purpose of the Cavalry (other than scouting) was to persue and hack an enemy that had been routed by infantry and cannon. A cavalry charge against an enemy on the ground with long muskets and bayonets or pikes would be at a decided disadvantage as the muskets and bayonets and pikes could be grounded and skewer the horse from a place the cavalry man could not reach with hand weapons.

During the Civil War all of that changed. Armed with Colt revolveres, the Cavalry could be an effective assault force with a reach beyond a musket bayonet and pike. Confederate Cavalrymen often carried four or more revolvers.

The saber and saber training hung on for another 50 years, but were pretty much relegated to Parade Ground use and inspection.

I remember reading an account by a Cavalary officers during the persuit of Geronimo during the mid 1880..He was on a scout with his men and cross path with another scout from a different regiment. He noted the other group carried sabres and this was the first time he had ever seen sabers taken into the field. They are heavy, noisey and useles against the elusive Apache. They occupied space and weight, that could be better used for food, water, grain, or ammo.

The study of the saber in American Military use is an iteresting subject, but far less glamerous that the holy saints John (Ford and Wayne) would have us believe.

Pardon this ramble..but the US Military saber and it's use, is one of "areas of interest", and I enjoy talking about them to others who are intersted.

[waksupi]

A Marine who in our hunting camp who was old enough to have trained with the M1 showed me how they used them for close up use. Most of the close up work involved smacking the groin, under the chin, or the side of the head with the big heavy buttstock of the M1, the bayonet goes in the guts where there aren't any bones to get in the way. I don't remember him talking about or showing me any kind of slashing with the bayonet. As someone else mentioned, he held it a port arms, paried to the left followed by the big end of the rifle coming around real fast.

Geez, Brimic, next time he asks you to do the dishes, just DO them!

[waksupi]

I have a friend that tours the world, doing horseback martial arts demonstrations. He uses bow and arrow for stationary, rolling, and flying targets. Pistol for balloons. Lance for various targets. Tomahawk and all the rest at full gallop. He also uses a sabre. He told me that when using a sabre, do it with the palm down, the slash must come from over the horses head, in a backwards slash. Otherwise, you get a broken wrist or thumb. If you ever see an advertisement for Pat Stoddard, go see his show. You will be very impressed.

[Four Fingers of Death]

A Marine who in our hunting camp who was old enough to have trained with the M1 showed me how they used them for close up use. Most of the close up work involved smacking the groin, under the chin, or the side of the head with the big heavy buttstock of the M1, the bayonet goes in the guts where there aren't any bones to get in the way. I don't remember him talking about or showing me any kind of slashing with the bayonet. As someone else mentioned, he held it a port arms, paried to the left followed by the big end of the rifle coming around real fast.


Gets you coming and going!

[C1PNR]

If I remember my M 1 bayonet training correctly, the last movement of the series was a diagonal slashing stroke downward aiming the bayonet at the juncture of the neck and shoulder, in the area of the carotid.

Or maybe the last movement was a jab to the stomach with the bayonet after the diagonal stroke. It has been a long time!:???:

[fiberoptik]

If I remember my M 1 bayonet training correctly, the last movement of the series was a diagonal slashing stroke downward aiming the bayonet at the juncture of the neck and shoulder, in the area of the carotid.

Or maybe the last movement was a jab to the stomach with the bayonet after the diagonal stroke. It has been a long time!:???:

It was (1982) vertical buttstroke, diagonal slash (L2R) stab & Pull. Funny thing is, the USMC had us hold the black rifle by the narrow of the buttstock, NOT the pistol grip! My Sensei, Vietnam vet-2 tours/combat engineer, came to set the grunts straight. Use the PISTOL GRIP, Not the port arms grip!

And that, boyz & girlz, is how you use the bayonet!
I, carried a razor sharp K-Bar to accompany my almost razor sharp Kukri!
:mad: My "WAR face"!