The Importance of Bullet Design vs Raw Power

[Bonz]

"from the Personal Defense Network"

http://youtu.be/lwwRpj74K3g

Field Test...We recently completed a simple test, firing a .45 ACP full metal jacket and a .22 WMR Speer Gold Dot self-defense round into one-gallon water jugs. Showing people video of this (http://youtu.be/lwwRpj74K3g), we even told them it was a demonstration of the power difference between 9mm and .45 ACP. We then asked them to pick out which round was .45 ACP and which 9mm. All were surprised to find they had selected the .22 WMR as being the .45 ACP. This began a great discussion in class on the importance of the bullet design versus raw power. To give you one statistic, the .22 WMR is rated by the manufacturer to have 99 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, as compared to 352 ft-lbs for the .45 ACP.

I am in no way suggesting that a .45 defensive round would have been even a close call against the .22 WMR defensive round. But I am suggesting that the design of the bullet made the .22 WMR outperform the .45 ACP full metal jacket. We can only imagine the increased effectiveness the combination of more power and the bullet design would have.

[btroj]

And?

Milk jugs of water have no real merit in determining the "best" self defense round.

These discussions and demonstrations border on the ridiculous.

[JSnover]

Would the Gold Dot be as impressive at 850fps? Probably not...

[Bonz]

Would the Gold Dot be as impressive at 850fps? Probably not...

Yep, looks like the slower velocity stops the hollow point from fully opening up. There are a lot of videos showing hollow point testing and if its too slow, it doesn't open up. My carry guns have barrels at 3" or less which greatly reduces the velocity the hollow points.

[jmort]

The Gold Dots do well at lower velocity in ballistic gelatin. Put a meplat on the .45 and it is a whole different story.

Gold Dot .45 Colt at 775 fps 14" in ballistic gelatin .763" expansion and less than 1% weight loss

http://www.shooterslegacy.net/articles/45colt.html

[Bonz]

Would love to carry my Colt Defender 45acp but I just can't handle the weight. I normally carry Hornady 147gr XTP in my Sig Sauer P290rs, maybe I will get some Speer 124r Gold Dots for it

[DougGuy]

Look into a Kahr .45 for carry. I have a CW45 with a 3 5/8" barrel fully loaded at 7+1 it weighs just 26oz. Made in USA too!

[williamwaco]

I suspect the difference in the reaction is due to velocity, not "bullet performance"

I experimented with the .22WRM back when it was new. It does a very good job on small game that you don't want to eat.

On a 30 - 40 pound varmint, there is a significant difference. The .45 is a much better killer. ( even with the 230 fmj.)

Obviously I never shot anything "man sized" but I did shoot it into soft clay and I would not even consider using it as a carry gun.

[JSnover]

I love the 22WMR for recreational use and it certainly can be deadly but my Milk Jug Killer is a Beretta Tomcat. 32acp offers more than twice the muzzle energy with a 75 grain bullet at 1150fps.

[GabbyM]

Would love to carry my Colt Defender 45acp but I just can't handle the weight. I normally carry Hornady 147gr XTP in my Sig Sauer P290rs, maybe I will get some Speer 124r Gold Dots for it

Do that if you like. In 9x19mm I’ll stay with my cast lead 147gr FP at 1,100 fps. Or for the pistols that won’t shoot the heavies to point of aim. The 122gr-TC at about 1,130 fps. I like to keep them just sub sonic.

[tomme boy]

I have shot a deer with the 45 acp. Not even close to a 357mag. The 357 was a one shot kill. The 45 was 2 in the check and 5 in the rest of the body. It was a 1/2 mile trail after that. The deer with the 45 was shot at 15 yds with 185gr +P win personal defence rounds. I recovered all but one of the 45 rounds. 2 opened up. The 357 was a 35 yd trail. Bullet was not recovered. It was a CCI HP in the alum cases. I think it was a 158 gr.

Not all bullets act like they are supposed to all the time. The 22 mag would be a good back up. But if it was the only thing I had I would carry it. Especially the KelTec with the 30 round mag.

[Outpost75]

If I'm ever attacked by Jello Man, I'll know what to use.

[fredj338]

Flawed "test" IMO, as a 1gal jug of water offers little to no resistance to high vel Impact. Just as irrelevant would be a 20# steel plate at he other end of the spectrum. Yes, bullet design matters. Take he same 45, 185gr jhp, quite diff.

[Digital Dan]

And?

Milk jugs of water have no real merit in determining the "best" self defense round.

These discussions and demonstrations border on the ridiculous.

Yes indeed.

[Blackwater]

This is a very old trick - shooting water jugs to "test" a load/caliber's effectiveness. Water jugs don't have nerve networks or organs to disrupt. Therefore, they can ONLY show what they've got to show, which is expansion. It's true that a .22 mag. CAN be a very lethal round. It's ALSO true that it has very little "stopping power" as well, however. Stand Mike Tyson in front of that water jug and let him whack it for all he's worth, and it'll do even less damage than the .45 ACP, but WOW! THAT is STOPPING POWER! Blowing up jugs is just that - blowing up jugs. It DOES show what kind of "hydrostatic shock" a load may yield, and IF CERTAIN THRESHOLDS ARE REACHED, it CAN be very lethal, and even perform well as a "stopper." However, to say a .22 mag. is a "better stopper" than a .45 ACP just plain isn't valid. Look to actual street statistics from Sanow and you'll find a much diffferent result. "Stopping power" is just that - the ability of a load/caliber to STOP an aggressor. Whether he dies later on or not is immaterial to a defender. He just wants the danger to be stopped. That's all.

Bullet shape DOES have a distinctly significant effect when you're looking to stop something or kill it, but comparing a little high speed HP to a big RNFMJ just isn't a valid comparison, other than to show the difference between hydrostatic shock and lack of it. Most of us understand that a heavy blow from a big, flat pointed bullet is like a Mike Tyson roundhouse KO punch, compared to a little and faster HP bullet's effect on water. If bad guys were made of water, and encased in plastic that ruptures instead of stretching like flesh and bone does, the .22 mag. would be very popular. It isn't, and there's a reason for that. It's just not a "stopper." A .45 ACP with good bullets IS. it's that simple. Tests like this are fun to watch and perform, and do illustrate what kind of hydrostatic shock a load has, but they darn sure aren't very reliable indicators of how good a defensive round any given caliber is. Again, REAL documented results from the street are awfully hard to overcome with ANY sort of contrived "bullet performance tests." Not if you want the Truth about what bullets can do, anyway.

And let us never forget! Whatever bullet you use, it MUST be placed well to have the desired effect, and even then there's no guarantee. That's why the proceedure of shooting two to the chest and one to the head is taught in training so commonly now. With all the bad guys that are hyped up on drugs like meth and whatever, they can be AWFULLY (literally!) resistant to shock of any kind, and that last shot to the head is the reason for it. Severely agitated antagonists, as with the case sometimes of mental problems, can make an antagonist just as resistant to shock. Even a .45, or a .50 for that matter, does NOT make them all fall down like in the movies. There are records in battle of men taking dozens of rounds of high powered rifle fire and STILL killing the enemy. There is much to learn about "stopping power," and you can't get it all out of a book. Nor can you make good conclusions from shooting water jugs. You have to have some experience shooting things.

I shot a fox squirrel once and removed the entire left side of the chest cavity, including the ribs, with a Super Vel JHP. That squirrel fell about 75 ft. from the very top of a pecan tree, bounced once, and hit the ground running. It had one lung left, and it worked well enough to get it some 15 yds. from where it fell, and it lay there gasping for breath when I shot it with another placed more dead center, and that ended it. This was with a .45 auto. To conclude that it's inadequate for squirrels would be a huge mistake. Anatomy, shot placement, and other matters play in greatly. Ask any ER physician what he's seen, and you'll likely think him a liar. He's not. He's EXPERIENCED, and that trumps any kind of "test" we recreational shooters can ever come up with, every day of the week.

It's a VERY serious matter when you have to shoot to defend your life. It doesn't need to be taken so lightly as to choose a caliber based on what it does to jugs of water. That said, I often carry a little .380, but I know its limitations, and I choose to carry it when a larger gun would be much harder to carry. That's a compromise I make, and I make it for personal reasons, which ultimately is what we all have to do. I just don't try to claim it's "just as good" as my .45's or .44's or .357's or even my .38's. I'm just not willing to wear proper dress to conceal a bigger gun, and that's a legitimate part of the equation, too. It's hot in SE Gerogia, and light clothing doesn't conceal large guns very well. However, when I go where danger is more likely to lurk, I'll have my .45. You can bet on it.