Biggest possible .30.06?

[Blackcat]

This is driving me crazy im starting to swear at my computer.
Every caliber I own has unlimited cast bullet options but I just cant find anything for .30.06 all the offerings are pretty tame. I've been thinking about a general purpose gun. Versatile for anything from deer to godzilla.. Well grizzlies anyway. Doesnt have to be long range. I cant decided between 45/70 or .30.06. I would prefer that power of the 45/70 but im concerned about the recoil. .30.06 recoil doesnt bother me but ive never fired a 45/70. So im leaning towards the .30.06 but I would like to come up with a hard hitting short range load that is closer to the ballistics of 45/70. How far in that direction can a .30.06 be pushed ? I really cant find anything at all. Im thinking a very heavy hard cast flat nose bullet with a higher pressure load. Thoughts please!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

while I like my 358win,
from what you said, I would think 35 whelen is your answer.

[btroj]

Go with a 35 to 38 cal and never look back.

Shooting a 225 gr and up cast bullet at 2000 fps and above means lots of penetration and a reasonable trajectory.

A 375 H&H is an awesome deer gun with cast. A 265 gr cast at 1800 fps is going with me this fall.

[Blackcat]

35 whelen I have to check that out!
I forgot im trying to stick with common calibers. Even 45/70 is a bit unusual for my taste. But if I find the right round then thats not so big an issue.

[Hannibal]

If you want a caliber capable of putting-down any mammal in North America, and arguably, anything world wide, I think there is but one choice. And the caliber begins with .45.
You did mention bears/Godzilla. Remember? A .30/.35 MAY expand to a .45. But. A .45 will NEVER get smaller.

[Blackcat]

Interesting that .35 whelen looks quite good. But seems like the recoil will be close to the 45/70 ?
Ok so .45 that brings me back to 45/70 again. Ive shot a .300 win mag in the past it sounds like anything in the .45 area is going to recoil about the same as a .300 win mag. Anybody fired both the 45/70 and .300 win mag that could tell me how the two compare in recoil ?
The 35-38s are still on the table as well.

[country gent]

Heavy wieght for a 45-70 is around 550 grns while the 30-06 is aropund 240 grns, just under a half the 45s bullet wieght. A 45-70 with black powder and 500 grn bullet at 1200-1300 fps almost drove the buffalo to extinction is a very few years. In an appropriate wieght rifle the recoil is very controlable. Alot of data exists for it with bullets ranging from 300 to 550 grns with black powder, substitutes and smokeless powders. A ruger number one with full power loads is very formidable but so is recoil. Components are available. A heavy round nose or large flat point packs alot of wallop. The 30-06 is a popular round with bullets available from 100-240grns, components are available a few more choices in rifles and action types. Only smokless powders mainly here. This round has taken all north american game reliably. Either with proper load worked up and accuracy would be a fine choice. I would lean towards 45-70 as I feel it might be a little more versatile. There are alot of choices out there in 30 cal, 35 cal, 375 cal, 40 cal and 45 cal. The thing is to find something your comfortable with and work up an accyrate load.

[Hannibal]

If you don't like heavy recoil, Godzilla is off the menu barring vehicle-mounted arms. Savvy? Shot placement. Bust both shoulders and even Godzilla won't go far. Now. How much gun you need to bust both shoulders is up to you.

[Blackcat]

Yeah I guess that is true. Im half asleep and ive been reading about calibers for hours. Im probably over thinking this.

[starmac]

I don't think a 45/70's recoil will be as bad as trying to make one out of an 06. 45/70 and cast just go together from mild to wild, to get full potential out of an 06 or even a 35 whelen one needs to go jacketed in my opinion.

Personally I would rather pull the trigger on a 45/70 than the sharp recoil of a 300 mag. Win mag that is, I have never shot an h and h.

[Hannibal]

Lots of long distance shooters tout the 300 Win Mag. Until they have to shoot it regularly. Show me a man that shoots 10-shot 300 Win mag groups at 100 yds and 1 MOA or less and I'll show you a fellow that everyone calls Sir. Just sayin'.

[Hannibal]

I don't think a 45/70's recoil will be as bad as trying to make one out of an 06. 45/70 and cast just go together from mild to wild, to get full potential out of an 06 or even a 35 whelen one needs to go jacketed in my opinion.

Personally I would rather pull the trigger on a 45/70 than the sharp recoil of a 300 mag. Win mag that is, I have never shot an h and h.


Ditto.

[Hannibal]

Buy the way, the 30-06 IS the biggest 30-06, correct? Sheesh.

[Blackcat]

Lots of long distance shooters tout the 300 Win Mag. Until they have to shoot it regularly. Show me a man that shoots 10-shot 300 Win mag groups at 100 yds and 1 MOA or less and I'll show you a fellow that everyone calls Sir. Just sayin'.

Haha I know how that goes. My first rifle was the .300 win mag. I didnt mind the recoil much but having never fired a rifle before and trying to teach myself with that one I was developing some pretty bad habits. So I stepped down to a .308. Much better to develop skills on imo.

[Hannibal]

You and me both, my friend. The 300 Win Mag is an awesome platform. And takes a level of experience/discipline that is simply lost on the beginning shooter. Start a pistol shooter on a .44 mag and watch what happens. Yes, those are nearly apples to apples.

[1johnlb]

Only one way to solve this, buy both. You can never have to many guns.

[waltherboy4040]

375 whelen improved or a 460 weatherby mag

[triggerhappy243]

the amount of felt recoil is in direct proportion to the weight of the rifle. the heavier the rifle the less wallop you feel. I used to shoot a 338 win mag. at 1/2 mile at gallon milk jugs. 10 shots at a throw. heavy rifle and was able to recover from recoil to see my shots hit.

i dont shoot cast in my rifles.... but from what i have read on this site, you should try a 45/70 and then compare it to your 06. you may just be thinking too hard.

[aspangler]

Go with the 45-70. 25 gr of 2400 under the 405 flat nose cast will get you 14-1500 FPS and will take anything in North America. Recoil is about like a 20 ga with a field load.

[35 shooter]

45/70 knows no fear,but the 35 whelen will give you plenty of power with a flatter trajectory as far as an all around rifle. You mentioned a big 06 and the whelen is an 06 case necked up to 35 cal.
Loaded with a 280 to 300 gr. boolit it's Godzilla ready. Recoils not bad up to about 2200 fps. After that it gets serious pretty quick. With a 1/14" twist it handles 200 to 300 gr. boolits well for me.
I love old classic rounds like the whelen and want a 45/70 to go with it for the same reason.

[StrawHat]

I used to drink the 45-70 kool aid and while it is a good cartridge, there are certainly better ones. For big animals, the 50-70 hits harder and has a bit less recoil. For smaller stuff, the 405 WCF (or if you want a bolt rifle the 40 Whelen or the 411 Hawk) hits harder and flies flatter than the 45-70.

That said, the 30-06, properly loaded, is suitable for anything on North America. Look at some of the loads for the 220+ grain boolits.

[Moonie]

What was it Colonel Townsend Whelen said? I load my 30-06 from 155gr to 245gr. With 35gr of H4895 that 245gr boolit is moving at 1,950fsp, with its sectional density it will shoot through any animal I'd want to point it at, and it does have a nice flat point and is quite accurate.

[MarkP]

I would consider a 35 cal -- 358 Win, 35 Whelen, 350 Rem Mag. I love my 350 Rem Mag's.

[seaboltm]

9.3x62 and a 30-06 can be rebored by JES

[Dan Cash]

200 to 220 grain paper patched bullet over a healthy dose of 4320, Reloader 19 or similar for a muzzel velocity of 2200 to 2400 fps from your -06 will do any thing in this hemisphere and likely the world. Sectional density of a heavy .30 bullet will enable very deep penetration.
Some counsel bigger diameter but they do recoil and, like you, I find that unpleasant and un necessary. If I were to take my .45-70 Marlin, it would be a black powder load with a 450 grain bullet pushing 1400 fps. Recoil not too bad and power out of proportion to the velocity but range is restricted. Your -06 loaded as above will enable you to easily hit game out to 250 yards.

[dh2]

the biggest in an 06 case would be the 9.3mm x 62mm Mauser what is not to like about a 286gr boolit going 2400FPS, but the 35 whelen is probably easier to deal with as far as getting components for.
and the 45/70 what can't you stop with 405gr. of lead

[Jevyod]

I will throw in my $.02! I recently bought my first 45-70, and I was concerned about the recoil. Turns out it is not as bad as you would think! If you stick with mid-level loads, it is very pleasant to shoot! Far more pleasant that my 7mm Mag!

[rr2241tx]

In a suitably strong action 45/70 is awesome but problematic to get it to feed reliably from anything but a tube magazine. Heavy cast boolits have penetration to spare. If you are going that way, put a .458 barrel on a P-17 and open up the bolt face to hold a .450 Marlin. The .450 Marlin will do everything a 45/70 will do AND feed reliably from a box magazine that is long enough that seating depth is not an issue.

[Lonegun1894]

I have both, and will say that well, it depends on what you want. Either caliber is plenty for anything in North America, but the diference is in how you plan to use it. If you can handle the recoil of either of these two, then the other won't be any problem either, so I wouldn't worry about recoil in the least bit. If you were used to a .22LR only, or a .223 Rem only, then I wouldn't be saying that regarding recoil, but you understand. Now as to how you hunt. I have done a lot of long range shooting, and it is lots of fun, but I prefer to hunt in close. For my uses, a .45-70 is tough to beat, and I use it a lot, but I also use everything else I have and push my limits to see what I am really capable of. I would say, that just due to trajectory, I would recommend the .45-70 if most of your intended use is inside of 150 yds or so, and the .30-06 if you intend to hunt out further. Keep in mind though that with cast, unless you do a lot of work to paper-patch or really work up a good alloy, the vast majority of us keep our .308/.30-06 loads to the 2200-2400fps limit, and many times slower, so the .30-06 doesn't give you nearly as much of an advantage on trajectory using cast as it would if you were sending jacketed rounds down range.

Just did a quick check on the handloads.com calculator and came up with this, and feel free to change the values as you see fit, cause this was just the first thing that came to mind:

First a .308 RN at 2400 fps sighted in at 150yds:

RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
0
2400
-0.5
0
0
3070
0


25
2337
0.65
0.26
0.03
2911
0.5


50
2280
1.41
0.91
0.07
2770
0.71


75
2224
1.74
1.98
0.1
2636
1.06


100
2168
1.63
3.5
0.13
2505
1.56


125
2113
1.06
5.48
0.17
2379
2.2


150
2058
0
7.95
0.21
2257
3.01


175
2005
-1.58
10.93
0.24
2142
3.97


200
1952
-3.69
14.45
0.28
2031
5.1


225
1901
-6.38
18.55
0.32
1926
6.41


250
1850
-9.67
23.25
0.36
1824
7.9


275
1800
-13.6
28.59
0.4
1727
9.57

300
1752
-18.21
34.6
0.44
1636
11.44



Then a .458" 405gr at 1600fps:


RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
0
1600
-0.5
0
0
2302
0


25
1531
2.19
0.54
0.05
2108
0.61


50
1468
3.96
2
0.1
1938
1.15


75
1408
4.72
4.47
0.15
1783
2.05


100
1352
4.37
8.05
0.21
1644
3.33


125
1299
2.83
12.82
0.26
1518
4.99


150
1250
0
18.88
0.32
1405
7.03


175
1205
-4.22
26.33
0.38
1306
9.45


200
1164
-9.94
35.28
0.45
1218
12.26


225
1128
-17.27
45.84
0.51
1144
15.42


250
1096
-26.3
58.1
0.58
1080
18.93


275
1067
-37.15
72.18
0.65
1024
22.76


300
1041
-49.9
88.16
0.72
975
26.89

[Lonegun1894]

Then a 405gr .458" at 1600 fps also sighted in at 150 yds:


RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
0
1600
-0.5
0
0
2302
0


25
1531
2.19
0.54
0.05
2108
0.61


50
1468
3.96
2
0.1
1938
1.15


75
1408
4.72
4.47
0.15
1783
2.05


100
1352
4.37
8.05
0.21
1644
3.33


125
1299
2.83
12.82
0.26
1518
4.99


150
1250
0
18.88
0.32
1405
7.03


175
1205
-4.22
26.33
0.38
1306
9.45


200
1164
-9.94
35.28
0.45
1218
12.26


225
1128
-17.27
45.84
0.51
1144
15.42


250
1096
-26.3
58.1
0.58
1080
18.93


275
1067
-37.15
72.18
0.65
1024
22.76


300
1041
-49.9
88.16
0.72
975
26.89

[Lonegun1894]

If you'll notice the drop figures in the third column, the .30-06 only gets you out an extra 25ish yards before you have to hold high to stay in the kill zone on a deer, but does it with just over half the bullet size and weight as what the .45-70 gives you. So I would choose based on how you hunt, or maybe on if you prefer a specific rifle that is available in one caliber but maybe not the other. Maybe a certain rifle just fits you well. For example, I have a Rem700 in .30-06, and it is comfortable to shoot. My last range session was 100 rounds of full power ammo and it never got uncomfortable. I used to have a MarkX Mauser .30-06, and that thing HURT to fire even one round. It was just a matter or stock shape and how it fit me. So make sure the gun fits you when you shoulder it, and recoil won't be an issue.

[tuckerdog]

if you are comfortable with a heavy 12ga load you will have no problem with a 45/70

[Forgetful]

You should be able to get 2500fps from a cast 220gr in a 30-06. I didn't like the mold offerings in .30 for 200-230gr but I ended up narrowing down on the lyman site and found a nice RN 220gr iron mold.

[Blackcat]

Wow all these options now and they are all looking great!
some of these calibers like the .35-40 Whelen and so on how are they for availability on the shelves ? To throw another monkey wrench in this. How would .454 or .50 alaskan fall into this ?
IM set up for reloading .454 thats why I ask. Ive noticed some of these seem pricey im thinking bush rifle. In the range of 600-1000 dollars.

[Char-Gar]

The 30-06 is a fine rifle for all American game.

The 45-70 is a fine rifle for all American game

It is far easier to hit game past 200 yards with the 30-06 because it shoots much flatter than the 45-70.

This is about all you need to know. Pick a rifle and stick to it and learn your range limitations and adapt your hunting to your limitations. That is all....

I have killed lots of game with both cartridges and I never noticed one killing the animal deader than the other.

[W.R.Buchanan]

+1 on what Char-Gar says. You are over thinking this. Both are probably the most versatile cartridges there is.

Pick one and learn to use it. You can't go wrong either way.

Randy

[Elkins45]

The 35-38 caliber rifles just seem made for cast. Plus, it just seems easier to obtain good performance with bigger cast calibers as opposed to 30 or below. 358 Win or 35 Whelen and the RCBS 35-200 bullet are a VERY strong combination.

[leadman]

I have shoot the Lyman 314299 in my Savage 110DL with a healthy charge of H4350 and gotten excellent accuracy at 100 yards. Velocity was just under 2,600 fps and groups were all around 1 1/2". It takes a hard boolit to do this so it would be best to make softnosed boolits for hunting.
I do think the 35 Whelan would be a great cast boolit shooter but have never shot one. I have shot a 45-70 and it could do what you want in the proper rifle.

[1Shirt]

Like btroj said! A 375 H&H with a 265 gr. HP at 1800 is an awesome bang/flop deer killer.
1Shirt!

[MarkP]

121216 This is a picture of my wildcat --- 300 WSM parent case, necked up to .416, shoulder pushed back to create a long neck, loaded round, 400 gr, 315 gr on right. This is the top rifle in my avatar picture, Rem M SEVEN SS 20" bbl with HS stock 6.25 lbs fully dressed. I wanted to have to have big bore lever gun performance and compactness but in a scoped bolt action rifle. Once the 400 grainers get above 1,800 fps they are not too pleasant shooting from a bench with a T-shirt on. A full case of Trailboss yields 1,325 & 1,450 fps with the 400 & 315 gr which are very nice to shoot.

[Harter66]

30 cal 50 to 250 gr boolits
35 cal 65 to 275
45 cal141 to 600

30 cal red dot to 4831
35 cal red dot to 4831
45 cal Unique to 3031 or 4895 plus BP

Do any 30 and you have that case
Do a 35 except for the 357 clan you get that case.
Choose the 458 Lott and get Win Mag, American, and from your bench Marlin.
Choose the 460 S&W and get 45 Cowboy, Schofield, Colts, Casual and Mongo.
410 is possible too.

[trixter]

Not trying to butt-in too much here, but I have and shoot a 30-06. I reloaded jacketed bullets for a good long time, but it just got prohibitive since i am semi retired. I looked at ant read a lot of stuff about lead bullets, (I was already casting for my 45 ACP, and I bought the C 309-150 RF. It is a very versatile boolit and very easy to work with. With a gas-check applied and 20gr of Unique I am making a lot of holes in a real small part of the target. I've yet to knock over anything in the animal world, but I am confident that I'll do fine. I am not into the 'Biggest-Fastest' stuff anymore, that was a while ago. I am into just having fun with a gun now.

[Bigslug]

Recoil of a .45-70 is entirely dependent on how you load it. Just remember that a leading reason we don't have to worry about bison eating our petunias is 405 grains at 1200fps - which is a total pussycat to shoot in most any gun. If you have a modern gun that lets you turn up the volume, yes, it will turn your socks into cotton puddles around your ankles, but you don't NEED to go there.

If you want versatility. . .well, that depends if we're talking strictly cast or not. If jacketed or solid copper is on the table, you won't beat the '06 for versatility - ever. If you don't intend to play past 150 yards, bigger is better.

EDIT TO ADD: Without going to bore-ride bullets, which seem to pose a real challenge for getting accuracy without a lot of voodoo, 200 grains seems to be about the upper limit for .30-06 friendly cast bullets - depending on the throat length of course. Not much that won't kill if you can get it up around 2400 fps or so.

Thing is, the .45-70 was MEANT to be a cast bullet round, shooting at cast bullet/black powder velocities. That's why the slugs are so big - if you don't have speed, compensate with mass. I'm the biggest .30-06 fan you'll ever meet, and I have fun practicing with cast in it, but the truth is it's a jacketed bullet cartridge optimized for that technology. When dealing with poured bullets as a medium, you're probably going to have an easier time getting what you want with the olde schoole way of doing things. That's OK. . .I've found that the .45-70 is a round that you can load accurate ammo for in your sleep.

What mold? This one! (can be had with or without gas checks) http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=397&osCsid=o5plm9uoc0eug3daiegd0jrk93

[rockrat]

Having shot the '06, 35 whelen, 375 H&H and 45-70, I would go with the larger calibers than the '06. LOTS of boolit choices for the 35 Whelen, so that is what I would lean towards. MY H&H shoots great with a 310gr boolit @2000fps.

35 Whelen would be my first choice and the H&H/45-70 tied for second

[Forgetful]

Since we're talking about everything except the 30-06, lets throw in the .700 Nitro Express. Bigger and badder then the 45-70. 1000gr boolits at 2000fps.

[MBTcustom]

I'm intimately acquainted with most of the calibers you mention with the exception of 35Whelen (however, I have a lot of experience with 358 Winchester).

If it were me, I would use a 45-70 Guide Gun launching 405gr cast from 95/2.5/2.5 with 24 grains of 2400 and a 3/4" square of dacron.
Good for leveling anything on this continent 150 yards and closer.

30-06 not so much. Not with cast. Usually they wear a 10 twist barrel, and speeds exceeding 1900 FPS are difficult to achieve with accuracy.

35 Whelen is a better choice. 2500FPS is no problem, and it likes to be pushed. I would take it if no guide gun were available.

Last year I converted a Springfield M1A to shoot 358 Winchester. That is the only firearm that could supplant the Marlin Guide Gun for capability vs. maneuverability. 20 rounds from that, is more than any living creature can take.
It was built with a 14 twist barrel, and it ate 285 grain bullets like Lays potato chips. It's in the top 5 ultimate cast lead rifles I have created.

Brad mentioned the 375 H&H. Uh waitress? Make that two please.
CZ 550 Safari Magnum, and a jar of Grey Poupon

[btroj]

With cast a 35 to 38 cal bullet around 225 to 275 around 2000 fps shoots reasonably flat and hits hard. These are also an area where getting good accuracy into the 2200 fps range is easy enough.