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View Full Version : Aluminum versus Copper Gas Checks??



Foto Joe
11-03-2014, 09:04 AM
I'm in need of gas checks for my 311041. I'm looking at copper Hornady gas checks online and I swear they think that they're made out of gold. Since the copper ones work very well I'm inclined to stick with them but on the other hand the aluminum ones are half the price. I'd like some opinions and first hand observations about the two different materials. These are being shot out of a Henry 30-30 using COWW +2% tin just below 2,000 fps.

44man
11-03-2014, 09:27 AM
Actually GC's are metal mined from asteroids! :bigsmyl2: I am up in the air about aluminum. You need to understand what a GC does, it stops boolit skid and keeps a seal. Does aluminum have the strength?
Then the thickness of aluminum checks should not be thinner then copper ones. That removes the seal right there. Plus aluminum can crack easy.
Checks are NOT to protect a base from melting.

mattw
11-03-2014, 09:27 AM
I am interested in this as well, I have seen aluminum leave streaks on steel without being shot at high velocity... What does it do in the pores of the metal and how do you get it out?

Larry Gibson
11-03-2014, 10:15 AM
Joe

My experience making my own and using a small amount of commercial aluminum GCs is that they should work as well as the Hornady's provided;

They are thick enough to be a tight fit on the shank after sizing.


The GC is still inside the case neck after seating the bullet.


Velocity is kept und 2100 fps.

I make mine out of .014 - .015 flashing from Ace Hardware. They fit well on some bullet shanks but not on others. I found any of .012 thickness seldom fit well at all and easily came off, especially in the H die where they stuck in it. The smaller thickness does well with TL'd bullets with the GC then applied and a push through sizer is used.

Yes the price of Hornady GCs seems high but a thousand of them is a lot of shooting, even to trigger freaks like us. Suggest you try .014+ Aluminum and look at the Hornady's for your serious hunting bullets. When you get down here I'll show you my chronograph screens with all sorts of nicks and scars from non crimp on GCs coming off. If your load is accurate enough the ejecting GC will cause inaccuracy. That's ok for plinking and rock shooting but I'd just as soon not have it happen on that one shot of a hunt.

Larry Gibson

1Shirt
11-03-2014, 10:58 AM
Have shot a number of alum checks, mostly in 30 cal, and found them to be as accurate as copper. That said, in agreement with Larry, the thickness of the check makes a big difference. I also use .014-.015 when I make my own, which is seldom. Bought my check maker as a back up,------just I case. Am fond of Gator checks, and as long as I can get them, they will be my preference.
1Shirt!

blackthorn
11-03-2014, 11:56 AM
Another vote for the Gator checks sold by Blammer here on the site.

offshore44
11-03-2014, 12:29 PM
...and yet another vote for gator checks from Blammer. FWIW

Prospector Howard
11-03-2014, 12:49 PM
That's definitely something that's bugged me too. Back when copper was a dollar a pound, gas checks were about $12 a thousand. As copper prices went up, gas check prices went up way too much. There's less than 10 ounces of copper in a thousand 30 cal checks. Ok, so Hornady could have raised the price by a buck or two; but to go up $20? Greedy jerks as far as I'm concerned. It probably has alot to do with there being little competition from other major suppliers, but they are also shooting themselves in the foot with all the shooters starting to make their own checks. I wonder how much business they're going to lose over the long haul for being greedy. For me instead of making aluminum gas checks, I've been shooting alot more .223 bullets swaged from free .22 LR brass cases than ever now. Full length brass jackets are way better anyway. Take that, Hornady.

Ed_Shot
11-03-2014, 02:35 PM
I make my .30 cal checks with a FreeChex III form .014 flashing. I still compare new loads with aluminum vs Hornady and I never see any difference.

dragon813gt
11-03-2014, 02:42 PM
I'm still in the process of comparing checks. But there is a long list of other things to test as well. So far I've found no difference. Mine are made w/ a FreeChexIII using aluminium bought from Yonky in varying thicknesses for multiple calibers.

bangerjim
11-03-2014, 02:58 PM
From my personal experience........

Al checks do not stay on nearly as well as Cu commercial checks. They are softer and do not hold the form of the GC area....so they come off fairly easy.

I use brand H Cu checks a lot. Never had one fall off! The few cents they cost is no big whoop when compaired to what you pay for jacketed commercially made boolits.

And a thousand goes a loooooong way.

But do what you feel is best for your needs.

banger

captaint
11-03-2014, 03:00 PM
I have used aluminum plain base gas checks for the 9mm, worked great... I have used the copper Gator checks in other cal's and they were terrific. I would use either one again. Mike

22_boomer
11-03-2014, 03:17 PM
I thought the price of copper checks was a bit high so I got some aluminum checks -- just to try them. I use a Lee boolit sizer and I'm doing .225 size bullets and I had no problem with the copper (Hornady) checks but from time to time the aluminum checks would pop off the bottoms of my bullets after running them through the sizer. The name of the company I got the aluminum checks from is "Sage's Outdoors" but please keep in mind I am brand new at this boolits game so the problem could be all me. After what everybody has said here I may have to get into the Gator Checks in the future.

milrifle
11-03-2014, 06:00 PM
Not to argue with others' success, but I bought some .30 cal aluminum checks off e-bay and my accuracy went to hell. This was right after Sandy Hook and there were no Hornady's to be had. I learned my lesson. I have probably 10K Hornady's on the shelf now. In all fairness, I did NOT try annealing the aluminum checks, but I think what was happening is that they were coming off in flight and disturbing the pitch of the bullet in so doing. Annealing them may have made them stay on better. Or maybe something else was going on, but if I can get Hornady's, I will.

dragon813gt
11-03-2014, 06:52 PM
Much like buying cast bullets if you buy Al checks you are at the mercy of the manufacturer. They may not be the right fit for the application. While most of my 35 cal molds work great w/ .008 Al. I have one mold that needs .011 or the checks fall off. I look at it as a self sufficiency thing when it comes to making checks.

dilly
11-03-2014, 07:19 PM
I assume there are poor quality aluminum gas checks and poor quality copper gas checks as well as better aluminum checks and better copper checks.

It's not something I am at this point super interested in testing.

mac60
11-03-2014, 07:41 PM
I thought the price of copper checks was a bit high so I got some aluminum checks -- just to try them. I use a Lee boolit sizer and I'm doing .225 size bullets and I had no problem with the copper (Hornady) checks but from time to time the aluminum checks would pop off the bottoms of my bullets after running them through the sizer. The name of the company I got the aluminum checks from is "Sage's Outdoors" but please keep in mind I am brand new at this boolits game so the problem could be all me. After what everybody has said here I may have to get into the Gator Checks in the future.

I have experience with Sage's checks in 6.5mm, .30 and .44 cals. In my experience they crimp on tight as dick's hatband. If you have a problem and let him know (which I did), he'll bend over backwards to get you a check you can use for a given application. As far as bore damage from the aluminum - I'm just not seeing it. My experience with aluminum checks has been a positive one up to this point.

1johnlb
11-03-2014, 08:10 PM
I'll never use aluminum gc's again, not as long as I can get copper. If I can't get copper I'll just shoot plain base. I'm sure there's good and bad al gc's but my first and only exsperience with them solved my thoughts for cheapper checks. If you use them make sure you use the highly recommended makers. I noticed a 4" group size increase at 25 yds and almost couldn't get my ar bolt apart because of the lead/aluminum that found it's way in the bolt and gas rings.

PAT303
11-03-2014, 08:39 PM
I've never had an issue with Sages checks or Gators,I shoot them side by side and there's no difference in performance in my 303's,my Mk111 shot a couple of nice 100m 1 1/2'' groups the other day with them. Pat

Yodogsandman
11-03-2014, 08:49 PM
What does it do in the pores of the metal and how do you get it out?
How do you remove aluminum from your bore? I asked an aluminum GC manufacturer and was told they just don't foul your bore. That makes sense, copper GC's don't foul my bores either. Maybe so but, I know how to remove copper fouling, I don't know how to remove aluminum. I'll continue to use Hornady GC's till I run out and then I'll make my own copper GC's. I'm sure glad I stocked up on them years ago.

35 shooter
11-03-2014, 09:19 PM
I started making my own checks from al. and get better accuracy with them than Hornady copper checks.
I did have to experiment to get the right thickness to make them from. I finally settled on .014 flashing from Ace Hardware for my 35 whelen. Further experimenting proved to me they needed heat treating to shoot their best in my rifle...that may differ from one rifle to the next. Actually i just heat them for one hour @ 400* so their not truly annealed, but it works for me. They size on tighter after annealing.
It took about a month of testing different thickness in material but was well worth it for me.
I have never seen any residue from al. in my bbl. They don't come off in flight that i can tell and definitly group tighter than commercial checks for me.
Al. checks work but may take a bit of trial and error to find the best thickness for a given rifle or hand gun.

Btw..i couldn't get mine to shoot well at over about 1900 fps. before annealing. After that they shoot well at any speed up to 2400 fps + so far with the right load and boolit. Probably depends on the hardness of the al. as to whether they need annealing or not.

nagantguy
11-03-2014, 10:08 PM
Blammers checks have never done me wrong in 30 or 44 cal. In some ways I like them better than copper ones, price being one and that a fellow booliter makes them for another

22_boomer
11-04-2014, 09:29 AM
I have experience with Sage's checks in 6.5mm, .30 and .44 cals. In my experience they crimp on tight as dick's hatband. If you have a problem and let him know (which I did), he'll bend over backwards to get you a check you can use for a given application. As far as bore damage from the aluminum - I'm just not seeing it. My experience with aluminum checks has been a positive one up to this point.

I didn't mean anything bad about Sage's aluminum checks but I was hoping for some feedback about them and that's just what you did. I don't cast but get my boolits from a really good fellow so I need to find out what the size the check seat is and contact Sage's and see what can be done. I only do 22 caliber right now so the small check seats may be a problem. As I said in my last post I'm totally new at this and it is probably my fault that some of the aluminum checks seem to fall off. Sure would like to get them to work since they are so inexpensive.

robg
11-04-2014, 09:45 AM
when i was unable to get hornaday i use gator checks, but the point of aim was a little higher maybe the re harder and up pressure slightly

22_boomer
11-04-2014, 10:03 AM
when i was unable to get hornaday i use gator checks, but the point of aim was a little higher maybe the re harder and up pressure slightly
Does Gator Checks advertise any place here or on the web?

44man
11-04-2014, 11:44 AM
Thickness and softness counts so if the sized check that is smaller then boolit diameter is shot, gas will cut it easy.
I found a big problem when I sized boolits with a die over boolit diameter with a check. The check was not sized enough and when seating the check opened brass larger then the boolit did so I lost case tension. If your boolit is .430" use a .430 die and not a .432". Get the check the same size as the boolit. If the check is thin it will be smaller and promote gas leakage.
The posts about thicker metal are correct.
I use the Lee size dies to remove excess lube and not really size my boolits that are the right size as cast so it was changing GC size with an oversize die.
The check MUST be boolit diameter.

dakotashooter2
11-04-2014, 12:03 PM
That's definitely something that's bugged me too. Back when copper was a dollar a pound, gas checks were about $12 a thousand. As copper prices went up, gas check prices went up way too much. There's less than 10 ounces of copper in a thousand 30 cal checks. Ok, so Hornady could have raised the price by a buck or two; but to go up $20? Greedy jerks as far as I'm concerned. It probably has alot to do with there being little competition from other major suppliers, but they are also shooting themselves in the foot with all the shooters starting to make their own checks. I wonder how much business they're going to lose over the long haul for being greedy. For me instead of making aluminum gas checks, I've been shooting alot more .223 bullets swaged from free .22 LR brass cases than ever now. Full length brass jackets are way better anyway. Take that, Hornady.

I believe this also applies to jacketed bullets. Many jacketed bullets went from $15-$18/100 to $30-35/100 seemingly overnight. Even if you account for an increase cost in copper AND lead you're only looking a few dollars increase in materials cost, at most. That jump is why I got into cast boolits for my rifles (was already there for handguns).

44man
11-04-2014, 02:01 PM
I can't blame Hornady or bullet makers, I blame where they must buy from.
Like lead where the EPA caused the shut down of the US lead mine.
I voted straight Republican today as always. I hope all of you voted.

Prospector Howard
11-05-2014, 11:04 AM
I believe this also applies to jacketed bullets. Many jacketed bullets went from $15-$18/100 to $30-35/100 seemingly overnight. Even if you account for an increase cost in copper AND lead you're only looking a few dollars increase in materials cost, at most. That jump is why I got into cast boolits for my rifles (was already there for handguns).

That's why I also swage brass jacketed bullets in .243, 8mm, and .44 also. I just do alot more in .223 because they are the easiest and least expensive (virtually free). Apologies for hijacking the thread.

Reg
11-05-2014, 05:48 PM
Even the best gas checks will sometimes come off in flight. The killer of my Croney was a .44 cal. Hornaday gas check, properly fitted. Due note that the Chroney replacement has a 1/2" scatter shield now.

I too was dubious about using aluminum checks but got a .30 cal check maker and used .014 alum to make up a few hundred. Could tell no difference in accuracy. They seemed to fit fine and have noticed no so called aluminum smearing what ever.
Later made a .22 cal. and have used several thousand in several different rifles and there again cannot tell any difference whatever. A couple of my tests involved shooting both aluminum and Hornaday copper checks side by side in the same groups.
Properly fitted I do not think there is any real difference especially in the accuracy department. I still use both as I sometimes do not have the time to bang out a bunch of aluminum checks when I am in a hurry to get back to killing grass rats.

leadhead
11-05-2014, 06:02 PM
Isn't aluminum known to be an abrasive? I know aluminum cleaning rods can be murder
on a rifle bore. I wouldn't shoot them in my guns.
Denny

dancingbear41
11-05-2014, 06:39 PM
In the UK Hornady gas checks in .30 calibre equate to approximately $55/1000. I bought myself a Freechex III and have not looked back. It resurrected 10 .30 calibre moulds that I had stopped using because of the price of checks. I use 0.015" thick aluminium. They sit tightly on the gas check shank and I am more than happy with them.
Many people have their own opinions of how they will work for them, as evidenced by this thread. You have to have a think and weigh it up for yourself. I buy my aluminium from a member and he sells copper too. Although making my own copper checks would be much cheaper than buying them, aluminium is so much cheaper.
Whichever way, it is yet another thing we can make rather than buy.
Good luck.

Simon.

Blackwater
11-05-2014, 07:36 PM
I'm kinda' on leadhead's side. The aluminum checks seem soft enough, but without good info on their long term use, I'm dubious about using them. In a pinch, they'd sure be helpful, of course. When things begin to be made of unobtainium, like the shotgun powders I've been looking for for months now, one reaches a point where he'll use most anything that'll work, and worry about the consequences later. 'Till then, I think I'm going to stay an observer in this. Call me timid or whatever, but I've spent most of a lifetime getting the gun I have, and don't want to use anything in them that I'm not sure of ..... yet. Always open to possibilities, though. Not to be wouldn't be very smart either. A pistol barrel will last hundreds of thousands of rounds with lubed cast bullets, much less with jacketed, and a bit less with copper gas checked cast. That tells me the aluminum checks need some good, long term testing before I can personally have faith in them, other than as a stop-gap. Just my view, but I'm watching you other guys to see.

hanover67
11-06-2014, 02:47 AM
I bought some .30 cal. aluminum gas checks, primarily for use on my cast boolits in a .30-30 and a .303 Enfield. Initially I had problems withthem either sticking in my sizer die or falling off after sizing. Then I annealed some of them, heating them at 400 degrees for an hour in my kitchen oven and have had no problems since. Neither the use of or the inherent accuracy of either rifle has been really tested, but they seem to shoot where I expect them to. And, I have not noticed any aluminum deposits in either barrel.

JeffinNZ
11-06-2014, 05:03 AM
Even the best gas checks will sometimes come off in flight. The killer of my Croney was a .44 cal. Hornaday gas check, properly fitted. Due note that the Chroney replacement has a 1/2" scatter shield now.

I too was dubious about using aluminum checks but got a .30 cal check maker and used .014 alum to make up a few hundred. Could tell no difference in accuracy. They seemed to fit fine and have noticed no so called aluminum smearing what ever.
Later made a .22 cal. and have used several thousand in several different rifles and there again cannot tell any difference whatever. A couple of my tests involved shooting both aluminum and Hornaday copper checks side by side in the same groups.
Properly fitted I do not think there is any real difference especially in the accuracy department. I still use both as I sometimes do not have the time to bang out a bunch of aluminum checks when I am in a hurry to get back to killing grass rats.

REG: my original Chrony took a .22 GC hit in almost exactly the same place. A friend repaired it and until is eventually died of old age it wore a mask as you made.

leadman
11-06-2014, 05:57 AM
I sent a 22 cal GC thru the display screen of my first Chrony. They took it in on trade and sold me the one with the display on the bench.

I have used probably about 15,000 aluminum gas checks and they work as well as the copper. I did have to install the aluminum checks before heat treating my linotype 22 cal. boolits. The aluminum would extrude up the side of the 32 BHN boolit if I tried to install them after heat treating.
I have seen no issues in the bores of my guns either.

Reg
11-06-2014, 08:45 AM
REG: my original Chrony took a .22 GC hit in almost exactly the same place. A friend repaired it and until is eventually died of old age it wore a mask as you made.

Jeff,
Guess I didn't realize the Croney could be fixed, that gas check really hit it hard, I had to pick it out with tweezers. Actually I am amazed with the amount of lube the scatter shield catches. I usually set it out about 20 feet and have to take Windex to it from time to time.
It might be nothing but I have often wondered if this extra or excess lube being blasted out might not also be a accuracy factor.
Also, how many anneal or bake their aluminum gas checks? Sounds like it might make them attach better. Have noticed that some aluminum in strip from seems quite "springy". Would annealing the metal before punching out the checks make the punching and forming operation better or would they simply turn to mush and jam in the maker ?
Also, has Jim done any work with these aluminum checks ? Would be interesting to see his take on this.

44man
11-06-2014, 09:08 AM
The problem with aluminum cleaning rods is they pick up dirt and dust. If you keep your sheet clean, don't worry about the checks. The metal itself will not hurt the gun.
As far as lube coming off a boolit, you are better off if ALL leaves at the muzzle exit.

IDSS
11-06-2014, 09:41 AM
My take on aluminum gas checks is that they are the ones consistently available to me.

I bought a Freechex, II? I think, and make my own from roof flashing I buy here locally. Problem is, the closest hardware store is in Canada and the thickest material they sell is somewhere around .011". It would not stay on well when sizing to .431 for my .44's.

To solve the issue, I had Accurate make a mold that drops boolits with a .408" gas check shank, tapered to .404 at the end, to ease getting the check on. The checks now crimp on even more tightly than when I was sizing to .430, on a .400-.401 shank, with a push-thru.
As far as staying on, I find them shed from the boolits at the berm or sometimes still on the shank when I go mining to recycle the lead.

On the accuracy front, I'm still figuring stuff out, but I'm getting happier and happier with the groups theses things are turning in.

Sagebrush7
11-06-2014, 09:51 AM
22 boomer. The aluminum gas checks I make were designed for the 22 Bator bullets originally but fit the Lyman and RCBS molds also. Send me a private PM with shipping address and I will send you a free sample. I also sell and stock Gator checks at Sages Outdoors and offer discounts to forum members.




I didn't mean anything bad about Sage's aluminum checks but I was hoping for some feedback about them and that's just what you did. I don't cast but get my boolits from a really good fellow so I need to find out what the size the check seat is and contact Sage's and see what can be done. I only do 22 caliber right now so the small check seats may be a problem. As I said in my last post I'm totally new at this and it is probably my fault that some of the aluminum checks seem to fall off. Sure would like to get them to work since they are so inexpensive.

Reg
11-06-2014, 06:58 PM
Did some checking and JeffinNZ did a excellent article in the Floyd Files on alum checks. A good read with well backed up info.
Also, for the daring----- was out in the shop and noticed the old shot up Chroney is still sitting on the bench. Jeff said he got his repaired. If anyone wants a try at this thing for the price of shipping it could be yours. Do note there is another "near miss" on it from several years previous, it was working fine until the check took it's headlights out.

RoyEllis
11-06-2014, 07:41 PM
Also, for the daring----- was out in the shop and noticed the old shot up Chroney is still sitting on the bench. Jeff said he got his repaired. If anyone wants a try at this thing for the price of shipping it could be yours. Do note there is another "near miss" on it from several years previous, it was working fine until the check took it's headlights out.
I'd like to give it a whirl, always liked messing about with electronics. PM sent

BAGTIC
11-17-2014, 12:43 PM
Where the raw stock comes from is irrelevant. Reputable manufacturers order by specifications. Ultimately quality is determined by the standards of the manufacturer not the supplier.

For those who have expeienced deterioration in performance after switching from one check to another... Duh? Any component change can affect load performance. Using the same load one was using with original checks and then blaming the new check is silly. If one worked up the original load with aluminum and then discovered that changing to copper resulted in poor performance would one blame the inferiority of copper?