Pyrodex

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Anybody use Pyrodex and if so' what do you think of it?

[dtknowles]

I use it because it is easiest to get around here. It goes bang and sends bullets and balls down range. Regular BP is probably better as are most subs, I guess, I just don't know.

Tim

[John Boy]

I don't use Pyrodex and don't ask me what I think of it

[Skipper]

I don't use Pyrodex and don't ask me what I think of it

Plus 1.........it goes bang and corrodes the hell out of your barrel.

[upnorthwis]

Nastiest stuff ever. When someone gives it to me because they don't want it, I use it in Cowboy Action shot shells and then throw away the hulls. And I only shoot it in the side by side for easier cleaning. My other guns get Swiss 1-1/2, the real stuff.

[Hooker53]

Gopher. IV just in the last week or two, tried some Pyrodex in my 38 rim fire cases. It was a mess. Black Stuff all over the back of the action and on the case and maybe even me. I tried some Jim Shockey Gold a few days after that and it was like shooting smokeless. It was very clean. The company that makes that J'S Gold does not use sulphur and that's what is making such a mess with the Pyrodex. from now on, I think I will go with the Gold.

[snapshot]

Junk, shoot the real stuff

[oldred]

Please don't misunderstand, I'm all for shooting whatever it is that makes you grin BUT I have to ask. If a person decides not to shoot real BP then why bother with any of the subs? It's not BP shooting for any of the reasons a person would choose to shoot BP since they (the subs) don't look, load, shoot or even smell like BP nor are they in any way "traditional" and most are even more corrosive so what's the point? If, for whatever the reason and they are several for some folks, a person chooses to forgo the real thing why not just shoot a BP equivalent smokeless load and avoid all the hassle of the subs? Shooting smokeless is certainly not like shooting BP but then neither is shooting the subs? Again, I'm all for shooting whatever you like but choosing any of the subs is something that kind of puzzles me.

I personally do like BH209 (except for the cost!) but I consider that powder to be more of a bulky smokeless and I tried it once for the same reasons I choose smokeless sometimes because it has far more in common with smokeless and actually very little in common with either real BP or the subs, to each his own I suppose.

[Don McDowell]

Unless shooting in a competition that specifies black or substitutes, and you don't want to shoot black , why mess with the subs? Smokeless works well in most cartridges, and doesn't require the attention to detail that blackpowder does.
As far as availability of black,it's as hard to get as ordering from Powder Inc, Grafs and a couple other places and then letting UPS or FedEx do the delivery..

[SharpsShooter]

I don't know why anyone would waste their time with Pyrodex. It is highly corrosive and no advantage cost wise. There are much better choices in the realm of black powder, the real stuff that is.

SS

[GOPHER SLAYER]

My reasons for asking about Pyrodex or simple. In commiefornia black powder is getting more difficult to get. About the only way to obtain it is by ordering it. I talked to a distributer yesterday and he said, "dealing in PB is just too much trouble. Govt agents swoop down on you and you have to spend 3-4 hours taking inventory and accounting for every pound. If one is missing, you are in for a big hassle". The man went on to tell me that he sells a lot of Pyrodex. I have never used Pyrodex or any other substitute nor do I want to. I have never heard anything good about any of them. I gave away 3 pounds of the stuff two years ago when we moved into are present digs. I have several large caliber black powder rifles and I do love to shoot black powder in them. I went to the range in Yucca Valley, Ca. two days ago and the man running the range asked me where you could buy black powder and I told him I would check when I got home and call him back. I came home, got on the phone and called many gun shops. Most don't even answer the phone, you leave a message. The stores that did answer had no idea where you could get any black powder. The man at the range also said," since the military no longer uses black powder that there isn't as much profit in its MFG as there used to be".

[Skipper]

You could just buy it from Buffalo Arms.





My reasons for asking about Pyrodex or simple. In commiefornia black powder is getting more difficult to get. About the only way to obtain it is by ordering it. I talked to a distributer yesterday and he said, "dealing in PB is just too much trouble. Govt agents swoop down on you and you have to spend 3-4 hours taking inventory and accounting for every pound. If one is missing, you are in for a big hassle". The man went on to tell me that he sells a lot of Pyrodex. I have never used Pyrodex or any other substitute nor do I want to. I have never heard anything good about any of them. I gave away 3 pounds of the stuff two years ago when we moved into are present digs. I have several large caliber black powder rifles and I do love to shoot black powder in them. I went to the range in Yucca Valley, Ca. two days ago and the man running the range asked me where you could buy black powder and I told him I would check when I got home and call him back. I came home, got on the phone and called many gun shops. Most don't even answer the phone, you leave a message. The stores that did answer had no idea where you could get any black powder. The man at the range also said," since the military no longer uses black powder that there isn't as much profit in its MFG as there used to be".

[NoAngel]

It's great for the fourth of July or stubborn stumps in the yard.

[dtknowles]

Please don't misunderstand, I'm all for shooting whatever it is that makes you grin BUT I have to ask. If a person decides not to shoot real BP then why bother with any of the subs? It's not BP shooting for any of the reasons a person would choose to shoot BP since they (the subs) don't look, load, shoot or even smell like BP nor are they in any way "traditional" and most are even more corrosive so what's the point? If, for whatever the reason and they are several for some folks, a person chooses to forgo the real thing why not just shoot a BP equivalent smokeless load and avoid all the hassle of the subs? Shooting smokeless is certainly not like shooting BP but then neither is shooting the subs? Again, I'm all for shooting whatever you like but choosing any of the subs is something that kind of puzzles me.

I personally do like BH209 (except for the cost!) but I consider that powder to be more of a bulky smokeless and I tried it once for the same reasons I choose smokeless sometimes because it has far more in common with smokeless and actually very little in common with either real BP or the subs, to each his own I suppose.

Would you use smokeless in a cap and ball revolver or a reproduction Hawkin or a Belgian made double rifle in 450 BPE. Sometimes I can find Pyrodex at Walmart or Academy. Around here, no shops of any kind have Black Powder. Don't even see it at the local Gunshow. A pound lasts me years. I clean these gun within hours of shooting them and never had corrosion problems with Pyrodex. Yes, I would rather shoot real black and do. I still have part of a can Goex FFF. If you were going to order a pound of FF BP, where would you order it?

Tim

[dtknowles]

I just went to Buffalo Arms web page. You can't order on line, you have to call them and they have this note.

Please note that Black Powder is shipped FedEx or UPS ground Adult Signature only, as a hazmat shipment, and cannot be shipped to a P.O Box. You also must use this powder for sporting or cultural purposes and not for resale. On first time powder or ammunition orders we will need to have your birth date and statement that there are not local, state or federal regulations prohibiting you from buying or possessing black powder.

They don't say what the haz mat fee will be but is probably more than the price of a pound of powder. Not really interested calling and give them the info just to find out I would be paying 40 or 50 bucks for a pound of powder. I will get more Black when I stumble across it.

Tim

[Tar Heel]

If you can't get black, use Pyrodex. I have not had any corrosion issues at all. I use it in BP guns, not in BP cartridges. It was NOT designed for BP cartridges, it was formulated for large bore BP rifles and handguns.

It's good stuff if you follow the guidelines for its use. Simple. Used outside of the suggested envelope, it will be erratic. It was never marketed as corrosion free either. It's a BP substitute. If BP corrodes, so will Pyrodex (and it will if left uncleaned just like BP).

[country gent]

If I remenber corectly the hazmat fee on my last order of black powder was $35.00. the hazmat fee is the same for 1 pound order as a 25 lbs case or 50lb case. If possible get 4-5 friends who want it together and order 25lbs together to one address and split it up. I ordered 25 lbs of old ensford 1 1/2, 2 swiss 1 1/2 and 2 mixed case and got a small price break on the powder and the hazmat added just over a dollar to the cost of each pound. Some clubs here used to get group buys together to get price breaks and lower hazmats per item. Finding old ensford, swiss, or anyothers other than standard GOEX here is next to impossible. Some may want more some may want a couple diffrent granulations / brands to try also.

[Lead Fred]

Low FPS in cartridges, pure c rap in the flinter

I smuggle holy black in from the next state over, since the govna outlawed it, to keep it out of the hands of terrorists

FYI C R A P is NOT a bad word, its a guys name, who invented the toilet.

[Don McDowell]

I just went to Buffalo Arms web page. You can't order on line, you have to call them and they have this note.

Please note that Black Powder is shipped FedEx or UPS ground Adult Signature only, as a hazmat shipment, and cannot be shipped to a P.O Box. You also must use this powder for sporting or cultural purposes and not for resale. On first time powder or ammunition orders we will need to have your birth date and statement that there are not local, state or federal regulations prohibiting you from buying or possessing black powder.

They don't say what the haz mat fee will be but is probably more than the price of a pound of powder. Not really interested calling and give them the info just to find out I would be paying 40 or 50 bucks for a pound of powder. I will get more Black when I stumble across it.

Tim
Hazmat is 28.50 per order, 1 lb or 50 still just 28.50.
You can go to www. powderinc.com (they are in Arkansas)http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm the price shown per pound is delivered (hazmat included) Grafs will ship you a minimum of 4 lbs of powder, plus the 28.50 hazmat

[nhrifle]

Why not make your own?

[dtknowles]

Tim,

I can't tell if you are asking a serious question here so I will assume you are really asking this.

NEVER and I mean NEVER use smokeless propellant in a BP firearm. Some say you can and I offer that they are idiots. The world is full of them and it's also full of folks with missing eyes, fingers, and hands.

If you were making a point in the above statement (question?), then we are united in our position and the reader is warned to not use smokeless propellant in a BP firearm. If the reader wishes to argue this point, argue with another idiot.

No it was not a serious question, just a rhetorical one for the guy said if you don't use BP why use a sub, why not just use smokeless. It was to point out that some times smokeless is not an option. Handy hints (not you I know) like getting together with some friends and order a larger quantity of BP to spread the cost of Haz Mat fee. Like I could not have figured that out myself either. I know one other guy who sometimes shoots a Ruger Old Army, he might be interest in a pound of FFF more likely he would sell me a pound he has stashed that he will probably never use, if I tell him I really need it. I have been using Trail Boss in my more than 100 year old Smith and Wesson New Frontier in 44-40 but think Black or Pyrodex would be a better choice. Mostly I just don't shoot it. I am not comfortable with smokeless loads for the Double Rifle. I know others have done it safely but I paid $2500 for it and it is worth double that. I can't see risking it with smokeless so my stash of Black goes to it and my other guns get Pyrodex. I can afford a $50 pound of BP but when I can buy a pound of Pyrodex locally for less than $20 I don't see the point of springing for the Black. Actually, I have not shot either of my cap and ball pistols in a couple years or my two percussion rifles. I did shoot my Swedish Roller with Pyrodex recently and the double rifle with black. I have some 777 I got locally that I have not tried. Like I said, I can get Pyrodex or 777 at the store sometimes but no Black or smokeless. I can get smokeless at the a local gun show but no Black. The OP asked about Pyrodex and he got some good responses and some that I thought were not so good.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Why not make your own?

I think that would be a hobby of its own. I have read some of those posts. I have considered it. Too many kinds of fun and not enough time.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Hazmat is 28.50 per order, 1 lb or 50 still just 28.50.
You can go to www. powderinc.com (they are in Arkansas)http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm the price shown per pound is delivered (hazmat included) Grafs will ship you a minimum of 4 lbs of powder, plus the 28.50 hazmat

I just checked Powderinc. they have a 5 pound minimum order. You need to fill out a form that they have to keep on file. Maybe it can be Faxed. They also say that Black Powder cannot be resold. Thanks for the leads, it may be useful to others.

Tim

[cwheel]

Last winter I did the minimum order from ( I think ) Powderinc for 5 ea. 1lb. cans of cannon grade Goex. I have a scale cannon, 1 1/16" bore. Usually load about 1/4 cup powder charge with a patched 1" ball bearing. This stuff performed poor at best, very little recoil, low pressure shots falling way short. Wonder if ATF is making them tone it down some, quality of this lot is junk ?? Now I have 4 lbs. of this junk powder. Very reluctant to double up the powder charge, or to keep working it up to a higher pressure, don't want to turn this barrel into a bomb. This real black powder is 1F. Over the last 40 years with this cannon, I've burned more than 30 lbs. of cannon grade black, this is the weakest lot I've ever encountered. Once this is gone, will start looking for some sort of a replacement. Don't know what the quality of the finer grained Goex stuff is like, don't own a smaller bore BP that uses 2 3 or 4 F. But if you smaller bore folks ever run into this problem, you sure will start looking for a substitute directly after.
Chris

[dtknowles]

Unless shooting in a competition that specifies black or substitutes, and you don't want to shoot black , why mess with the subs? Smokeless works well in most cartridges, and doesn't require the attention to detail that blackpowder does.
As far as availability of black,it's as hard to get as ordering from Powder Inc, Grafs and a couple other places and then letting UPS or FedEx do the delivery..

Powderinc, 5 pounds minimum, Grafs is 4 pounds minimum plus haz mat, anyplace else has haz mat. They all say you can't resell, must sign for delivery, must send them an affidavit. Can buy subs at the local Walmart.

Tim

[Don McDowell]

I just checked Powderinc. they have a 5 pound minimum order. You need to fill out a form that they have to keep on file. Maybe it can be Faxed. They also say that Black Powder cannot be resold. Thanks for the leads, it may be useful to others.

Tim

So what's all the owl hooey about reselling over? **** man, a pound of powder will only give you 100 rounds in a 45-70.. 200 maybe in one of the little wcf cartridges,,, Hells bells.. man 5 lbs of powder ain't nothing.. I've shot over a 25 lb case this year, about out of powder again and need to decide how much to order here shortly.... resell??? Not around here there's nothing to resell..

[Don McDowell]

Powderinc, 5 pounds minimum, Grafs is 4 pounds minimum plus haz mat, anyplace else has haz mat. They all say you can't resell, must sign for delivery, must send them an affidavit. Can buy subs at the local Walmart.

Tim
Yessir been ordering and shooting one or more full cases of powder, plus the occasional 5-10 lb lots from them for years.. You can buy a lot of **** at WalMart, don't mean it's anything worth bringing home tho... Cost me more than the 28.50 hazmat in fuel to drive to the closest Walmart..

[dtknowles]

Yessir been ordering and shooting one or more full cases of powder, plus the occasional 5-10 lb lots from them for years.. You can buy a lot of **** at WalMart, don't mean it's anything worth bringing home tho... Cost me more than the 28.50 hazmat in fuel to drive to the closest Walmart..

Well good for you and bad for you. I can drive to the range and back 6 times on $28 in gas. I can walk to Walmart. I don't shoot 5 pounds of any one powder in any year. Thinking what works for you also works for other people leads you to give bad advice or maybe not, you might have hitched the OP up with just the deal he needs. I have gone thru a bunch of Green Dot this year but the 8 pound jug still has a lot left. The 450 BPE does eat a lot of Black in those long cases but when I take it to the range I shoot maybe 20 rounds. I do have 40 pieces of brass but 20 rounds a couple times a year is all the attention it gets unless you count the time I spend looking at the pretty wood. I have many other guns I shoot much more and they don't use Black Powder.

Tim

Tim

[dtknowles]

So what's all the owl hooey about reselling over? **** man, a pound of powder will only give you 100 rounds in a 45-70.. 200 maybe in one of the little wcf cartridges,,, Hells bells.. man 5 lbs of powder ain't nothing.. I've shot over a 25 lb case this year, about out of powder again and need to decide how much to order here shortly.... resell??? Not around here there's nothing to resell..

What part of I would like one pound of ff Black Powder can't you understand. Don't want or need 5 pounds, not looking to buy a life time supply. With 5 pounds I would be leaving some in my estate. The pound of Pyrodex and the pound of 777 (not even opened yet, after more than two years) might not get used up, 20 years ago or so I did go thru a pound of Pyrodex P, it was new then and I wanted to try it out I shot my cap and ball revolver a lot more then, did not have all the gun I have now. For some of us shooting cap and ball or percussion or BP cartridges is only a sometime thing not our regular trip to the range.

Tim

[oldred]

Would you use smokeless in a cap and ball revolver or a reproduction Hawkin or a Belgian made double rifle in 450 BPE. Sometimes I can find Pyrodex at Walmart or Academy. Around here, no shops of any kind have Black Powder. Don't even see it at the local Gunshow. A pound lasts me years. I clean these gun within hours of shooting them and never had corrosion problems with Pyrodex. Yes, I would rather shoot real black and do. I still have part of a can Goex FFF. If you were going to order a pound of FF BP, where would you order it?

Tim



Of course I am not suggesting using smokeless in a ML or or cap&ball and I think we all pretty much understood this was about cartridge loads.

My point is if real BP is not going to be used why bother with a sub? Why not just use a BP equivalent smokeless load and avoid the hassle of using the sub? Neither smokeless nor the sub is like BP and if you use a sub your shooting is different than either smokeless or BP! Of course smokeless does not load, shoot nor smell like BP but then neither does any of the subs and while the smokeless is noncorrosive, non-fouling and cleaning of the gun and cases is not critical any one of the subs is all of those things while shooting any of them is still not like shooting real BP so why bother? Don't get me wrong it's your rifle so enjoy what you like, that's what this sport is all about and my intention was not to belittle anyone for their choices but I honestly would like to hear the reasons why folks would choose these subs over smokeless if they decide to pass on BP?

I guess my point is that by shooting smokeless a person is going to miss out on what the BP sport is all about, the real tradition behind it, the way it was experienced "back in the day" and what these rifles/cartridges are all about, that's the reason we shoot BP right? But sometimes a person may just want to shoot their rifle without the extra care that BP requires, I do fairly often even though BP has become my first choice. Just as with smokeless by choosing any one of the subs the shooter is STILL going to miss out on everything BP is about, the old way of doing things, the loading procedures the way it was done, the way BP shoots and even the way it smells but the "extra care" required is going to be even more critical with most of these substitutes and you STILL miss out on the reasons why we shoot BP in the first place!

[kokomokid]

Try the pyrodex and see if you like it. I would clean my bore well and again the next day. I have spotted for a fellow who uses it because he bought a bunch cheap. He does no fouling control and has moved up to class A in bpcr. I always love to watch the flaming wad that flies down range when he fires. I don't use it. LB

[dtknowles]

Of course I am not suggesting using smokeless in a ML or or cap&ball and I think we all pretty much understood this was about cartridge loads.

My point is if real BP is not going to be used why bother with a sub? Why not just use a BP equivalent smokeless load and avoid the hassle of using the sub? Neither smokeless nor the sub is like BP and if you use a sub your shooting is different than either smokeless or BP! Of course smokeless does not load, shoot nor smell like BP but then neither does any of the subs and while the smokeless is noncorrosive, non-fouling and cleaning of the gun and cases is not critical any one of the subs is all of those things while shooting any of them is still not like shooting real BP so why bother? Don't get me wrong it's your rifle so enjoy what you like, that's what this sport is all about and my intention was not to belittle anyone for their choices but I honestly would like to hear the reasons why folks would choose these subs over smokeless if they decide to pass on BP?

I guess my point is that by shooting smokeless a person is going to miss out on what the BP sport is all about, the real tradition behind it, the way it was experienced "back in the day" and what these rifles/cartridges are all about, that's the reason we shoot BP right? But sometimes a person may just want to shoot their rifle without the extra care that BP requires, I do fairly often even though BP has become my first choice. Just as with smokeless by choosing any one of the subs the shooter is STILL going to miss out on everything BP is about, the old way of doing things, the loading procedures the way it was done, the way BP shoots and even the way it smells but the "extra care" required is going to be even more critical with most of these substitutes and you STILL miss out on the reasons why we shoot BP in the first place!

I apologies for the distraction. I did not notice this was the cartridge forum before I made the other posts. I use BP and subs not for nostalgia or a "back in the day" experience. I use it because they are the safest choice for some old guns that I like to shoot every once in a blue moon. Developing a Smokeless load would take time and there would be some risk of an over load. With BP or subs, very little load development was needed and the guns shoot to point of aim.

I am sorry if I intruded into a forum for "serious BPCR" shooters.

Tim

[oldred]

I apologies for the distraction. I did not notice this was the cartridge forum before I made the other posts. I use BP and subs not for nostalgia or a "back in the day" experience. I use it because they are the safest choice for some old guns that I like to shoot every once in a blue moon. Developing a Smokeless load would take time and there would be some risk of an over load. With BP or subs, very little load development was needed and the guns shoot to point of aim.

I am sorry if I intruded into a forum for "serious BPCR" shooters.

Tim

No reason for anyone to take offense, discussion is what the forum is all about! Like I said I'm all for whatever anyone wants to shoot, heck just get out there and shoot and let's keep the sport alive! :mrgreen: It's just that sometimes we see, not only here but other places also, someone talking about the "BP experience" when shooting a sub and some of these folks may have never even shot real BP and don't know the difference. There's smokeless load data for most, but certainly not all, of the BP cartridges but I think smokeless would be risky in some original firearms built before modern steels were used and many would be downright dangerous, however since most subs are "hotter" than real BP there might (or might not) also be some risk when using a sub in one of these firearms. I honestly was just curious as to how many folks regularly shoot a sub even in modern replicas and the reasons why.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

When I started this thread about Pyrodex I wanted people who have used it to give me there experience with it and opinion of it. While I appreciate all the other responses most will simply not work for me. To began with I just reached my eightieth year so I don't want to buy a large amount of anything. I heard Jimmy Dickens say at his age he doesn't even buy green bananas. I think since that remark he has checked out. Since I live in a retirement village making my own is not an option, neighbors too close and I don't live on twenty acres in the country. I have shot and enjoyed muzzle loaders, cap & ball revolvers and BP cartridge rifles for sixty years and modern cartridge guns long before that. I have come to the point where only the big bore cartridge rifles hold any interest for me and I have several. I don't know enough people to make up an order for even ten LBS of black powder much less twenty five. I should also mention all the rules about buying and storing any kind of powder much less black here in Kommifornia. I must say I am surprised about hearing how difficult it is buying BP in areas where I never thought there would be a problem. I guess big brothers reach is all inclusive. As for Pyrodex I can gather from the majority of responses that it is not a good substitute for Holy Black. My thanks to all who took part in the discussion.

[Don McDowell]

5 lbs of black powder delivered to your door, won't cost you anymore than 5 lbs of pyrodex ( and it is really sensitive to lot variation) and seriously in big bore rifle shooting even a 45-70 will only net you 500 rounds,, that's not many rounds if you shoot the thing at all.

[oldred]

5 lbs of black powder delivered to your door, won't cost you anymore than 5 lbs of pyrodex


That's a good point, I did a quick search and came up with,

Powder Inc,
Goex 5 lbs including shipping and Hazmat, per pound $24.40

Goex 10 lbs including shipping and Hazmat, per pound $19.05


Bass pro,

Pyrodex $22.49 per pound

Interesting that at 10 lbs a pound of BP is a couple of dollars cheaper than Pyrodex and even at 5 lbs it's only a couple of dollars more, at 25 lbs the BP is only $15.40 per pound including shipping and Hazmat which is about $7.00 per pound cheaper than pyrodex at Bass pro.

I first looked for WalMart's price on Pyrodex but the only thing they list now is Pyrodex pellets, I wonder if maybe they are discontinuing it at the stores??????

[Don McDowell]

Back in the late 70's when Pyrodex first came out, Black Powder truly was hard to get. You could not order it thru the mail, you had to buy it from an explosives dealer. So Pyrodex was supposed to be the wave of the future. Problem was it wouldn't work in flintlocks, to get it to work very well in cartridge guns you had to compress the snot out of it.. And we all found out it was in fact corrosive, and other than any FFL that sold powder could sell it.. Flash forward these 40 years, black is simple to get as it can be ordered from a plethora of different places. Pyrodex still won't work in a flintlock, still have to mash the snot out of it to work in cartridges, and still have to clean up after shooting, and the cost is the same or there abouts as blackpowder... So nothing has changed, it's an option for those that want to, but the question it was supposed to answer was withdrawn long ago...

[Desertbuck]

sorry went to edit and it double posted.

[Desertbuck]

My opinion is Black Powder is better than Pyrodex hands down. But I do use Pyrodex when I don't have any BP or the funds to buy atleast 15 pounds time I will go buy 1 or 2 pounds. As for the corrosive problems people seem to have with it, I never have! As soon as I get home my gun barrel get soaked with murphy's oil soap and laundry detergent mix in water of course, run a couple of dry patches down then 1 more soaking for good measure followed up with more dry patchs, the workings get a damp wipe down with an old rag, and after that a patch gets soaked with good old 10-30w motor oil the workings get a couple drops of it as well rack the workings a couple of times wipe everything down and put away.
But I do have a warning for you Pyrodex does not get along with really big BP cartridges for some reason! Works just fine in my 45 colt pistol and rifle as well my cap and ball. But for me anyhow when I stuffed it in my shiny new 45-120 sharps I got very strange snappy muzzle report dangerous pressure spike evident from a stretched case flattened primer loose primer pocket and very excessive recoil!!! I literally almost dislocated my shoulder I had to jump backwards to keep from falling on my butt. I passed that one off as beginners luck. Some time went by my shoulder felt better I checked and rechecked my methods and followed everything to the T and got the same result! I didn't shoot my lovely Sharps for almost 2 years because I was terrified of it. However I committed myself to finding some good old Goex and its been nothing but smiles since.

[winelover]

I use Pyrodex "P" (pistol) exclusively in my muzzleloaders. It just plain works and is not considered an explosive. I don't have an "out-building" and I wont keep black powder in my house. Never had a corrosion issue. I clean my guns after each shooting session. I have kept my "cleaned" muzzleloaders loaded for well over a year and they go off without a hitch. Again, no corrosion. I shot this buck last year with my ROA and a Lee 220 conical (35 Grains of Pyrodex "P").

120959

Since it was early in the season, I just cleaned the barrel and the one fired cylinder chamber. Left it loaded that way, till this season was over. No corrosion and all remaining 5 shots went off, as expected.

Pyrodex use to offer a Pyrodex "CTG" version just for BP cartridges. I have no experience with, it since I have no BP cartridge guns. If I did, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. In perusing Hodgon's website, they now offer a Pyrodex "Select" that they recommend for BP cartridge guns.

Winelover

[oldred]

That's interesting about the 45-120 and brings me right back to my question, if not black then why not just use a bulky low pressure smokeless load and not bother with the subs? A huge case like the 45-120 would seem questionable for smokeless loading IMHO but there's lots of load data out there for different smokeless loads and no rash of 45-120 blow-ups being reported so it would seem using that data would be safer than your experience with Pyrodex, of course in huge cases like that BP would seem to be the logical choice for several reasons. 45 Colt or most any BP pistol cartridge and even big cases like the 45-90 and a host of other BP rifle cartridges there are case filling smokeless loads of the right powders that shoot quite well and at about the same (and sometimes even lower) pressures as a BP load so why Pyrodex?

This is not to suggest using smokeless and abandoning BP but, once more, the point is that if BP is not going to be used for whatever the reason why not use a smokeless "sub" instead of the highly corrosive and cleaning critical concoctions? For a Cap&Ball or a ML one of the subs might make sense in the absence of real BP but for a cartridge gun it just seems to be a solution for a problem that doesn't exist!


An interesting note on smokeless loads and big cases, the 45/70 is almost the oldest BP cartridge out there with just a handful being older and it has been factory loaded with smokeless for many years. I don't know what powder they use today but I assume Winchester still uses the same thing they did in the 70's when I pulled one down out of curiosity and the intent to reuse the components for a heavier load for my then brand new 1895 Marlin. It was surprising to me then at just how little actual powder was contained in that case under that 405 grain bullet, lot's of air space in that case and it obviously has not been a problem but still with the right powders most cases can be loaded nearly full. This is NOT to advocate using smokeless instead of BP but rather IF real honest-to-goodness Black is not to be used then why use something that's only similarity to BP is being corrosive (or even more so) and cleaning critical for both firearm and cases?

[Don McDowell]

Good points oldred.

[Bent Ramrod]

Pyrodex is sold by weight but loaded by volume. A pound canister of Pyrodex gives more shots than a pound canister of black powder. Shot for shot, it is cheaper than all but the most bargain priced black powder.

The Pyrodex shooter doesn't have to resort to wiping between shots or blow tubing, because the fouling does not continue to build in the bore the way it does with black powder. Pyrodex P works well for me in small rounds like the .32 Long because it has enough upsetting power to slug up the hollow base boolit but doesn't leave the accuracy destroying mess in the barrel that the equivalent load of Black would leave. I've also used it in my .32 muzzleloader when I want to do more shooting and less wiping. I have a Garrett Sharps Carbine that seemed to thrive on Pyrodex CTG when that grade was available. I was sorry to see it go. It never needed compression that I could see. And no, it doesn't shoot better with "real" black powder. It may in future, with a lot of finagling, but that Pyrodex load was quick and easy. I'm not always in the mood for a "science project."

Pyrodex has perchlorate in it to raise the ignition temperature. (This allowed it to be sold as a "flammable solid" back when Black Powder was classified as an "explosive.") The chloride salts left after firing are more liable to induce corrosion than the sulfides and oxides left by black powder, but the same timely cleanup regime that works for either will work for both with no corrosion troubles later. For people who take normal care in cleaning their guns, this is a prime nonissue. People who neglect their firearms will have the same problems down the road with either.

Most shooting is for fun or sport, for hitting reasonable size targets at reasonable ranges. For this shooting, black powder substitutes can hold their own with anything else.

I have absolutely no faith that this post, which has provided answers to the original poster's questions, will do anything to prevent the next "Why? WHY?? WhyOWhyOWhy????" repetition of the same stuff that has been said over and over already. The real question is "Why?" (do people who don't use blackpowder substitutes, and often have never even given them a reasonable trial, expend so much effort and bandwidth in their jihad against them) and "Why?" (are they so red-hot to come up with some magic rationalization that will induce total strangers to also avoid trying them.) I've never heard a cheese lover say Velveeta should be taken off the market or an aspirin user say nobody should use Tylenol because it's only a substitute. Only certain religionists and black powder shooters will have no other before them. "Why, Lisa?? Why, Why??" (Hand to brow.)

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Gheez, Ramrod how much coffee did you have this morning?

[Don McDowell]

Can't speak for others, but as for myself everything I post on this or any other board is drawn from hands on experience. And as I said in my first post if blackpowder is not required by rule for the type of shooting a person is doing, then what exactly is the point in messing with any of the subs? Smokeless will give good accuracy, get 3 times as many shots per pound as pyrodex at the same price, without all the clean up involved....And if it's allowed for the competition one wants to shoot Blackhorn 209 will out shoot Pyrodex so dang easy it's not even funny, and requires absolutely no fouling control. The stuff is spendy, but delivers extreme accuracy..

[John Boy]

And if it's allowed for the competition one wants to shoot Blackhorn 209 will out shoot Pyrodex
Blackhorn 209 is not allowed for NRA sanctioned matches


NRA Official Rules for Rifle Silhouette Competition
Black Powder Cartridge Rifle

Cartridges must be loaded with black powder or Pyrodex only.
ex. No smokeless powder in any quantity may be used.
re: Blackhorn 209 ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6150.msg46266

"Haag's findings were that Blackhorn 209, while basically nitrocellulose contained inclusions of potassium nitrite and sulphur, which may create potassium sulphate, possibly sulphur trioxide, or dioxide combining with water in the air form sulfuric acid. He concluded that there is potassium nitrite and elemental sulphur embedded in what is basically a nitrocellulose product"

[Don McDowell]

The bptr regulations say any substitute powder,,but there are a lot of places that bh209 is legal to use, and it does shoot extremely well. The real trick is to not use any water based cleaners, regular bore cleaners work alright, with Montana Extreme's own Cowboy blend working well, but their BH209 cleaner works extremely well..

As revised Jan. 2011
3.17 Ammunition - Ammunition may be fixed, breech seated or muzzle loaded. Only commercially
manufactured sporting grade Black Powder or Black Powder substitute may be used for the entire powder charge.
No smokeless powder in any quantity may be used. NOTE: Follow all manufacturer’s recommended guidelines

[Don McDowell]

AAnd bh209 will not go weak on you after you open the can the way the other subs do..

[oldred]

Pyrodex is sold by weight but loaded by volume. A pound canister of Pyrodex gives more shots than a pound canister of black powder. Shot for shot, it is cheaper than all but the most bargain priced black powder.

The Pyrodex shooter doesn't have to resort to wiping between shots or blow tubing, because the fouling does not continue to build in the bore the way it does with black powder. Pyrodex P works well for me in small rounds like the .32 Long because it has enough upsetting power to slug up the hollow base boolit but doesn't leave the accuracy destroying mess in the barrel that the equivalent load of Black would leave. I've also used it in my .32 muzzleloader when I want to do more shooting and less wiping. I have a Garrett Sharps Carbine that seemed to thrive on Pyrodex CTG when that grade was available. I was sorry to see it go. It never needed compression that I could see. And no, it doesn't shoot better with "real" black powder. It may in future, with a lot of finagling, but that Pyrodex load was quick and easy. I'm not always in the mood for a "science project."

Pyrodex has perchlorate in it to raise the ignition temperature. (This allowed it to be sold as a "flammable solid" back when Black Powder was classified as an "explosive.") The chloride salts left after firing are more liable to induce corrosion than the sulfides and oxides left by black powder, but the same timely cleanup regime that works for either will work for both with no corrosion troubles later. For people who take normal care in cleaning their guns, this is a prime nonissue. People who neglect their firearms will have the same problems down the road with either.

Most shooting is for fun or sport, for hitting reasonable size targets at reasonable ranges. For this shooting, black powder substitutes can hold their own with anything else.

I have absolutely no faith that this post, which has provided answers to the original poster's questions, will do anything to prevent the next "Why? WHY?? WhyOWhyOWhy????" repetition of the same stuff that has been said over and over already. The real question is "Why?" (do people who don't use blackpowder substitutes, and often have never even given them a reasonable trial, expend so much effort and bandwidth in their jihad against them) and "Why?" (are they so red-hot to come up with some magic rationalization that will induce total strangers to also avoid trying them.) I've never heard a cheese lover say Velveeta should be taken off the market or an aspirin user say nobody should use Tylenol because it's only a substitute. Only certain religionists and black powder shooters will have no other before them. "Why, Lisa?? Why, Why??" (Hand to brow.)

Ok you gave reasons for choosing a sub over BP but my question was not whether or not to use a substitute powder but IF real BP is not used then why not use a smokeless "sub"? No fouling, no corrosion, etc and even cheaper than Pyrodex per shot, it's all of the reasons you gave for Pyrodex and a whole lot more.

[slumlord44]

Many people say that Pyrodex is more corrosive than Black Powder. It is corrosive but in my experience not as corrosive as Black and definitely not more corrosive. Still need to clean promptly. I have used Pyrodex and Triple Seven. You need to make sure the bullet is seated firmly. It is not suitable for flintlock's. It will work in cartridges but as stated black powder equivalent smokeless loads are an option. I have deer hunted with both Pyrodex and Black Powder. The deer don't seem to know the difference. Accuracy is comparable. I have supplies of both and used which ever suits me on a given day. Pyrodex is a lot easier to find and has no storage limits or quantity limits. To me both are viable options.

[johnson1942]

pyrodex works very good in the flower bed, as good as most fertilizers, in a gun of any kind now days, never. its days are past.

[dtknowles]

Judging from this thread, I think the OP needs to do his own testing and make his own decisions.

Tim

[brad925]

Lets try this on for size. Why are you shooting Black when you could shoot pyrodex. I can spend an afternoon on YouTube watching guys trying to figure out a way to get BP to do what pyrodex already does which is reduce fouling. I have used both bp and pyrodex as well as smokeless in my hiwall. All three shoot equally well. So much so i can't tell one group from the other. The one thing with the pyrodex i did like more than the other two especially the smokeless was the time it took to find a load that worked. Telling someone that its BP or nothing is like me telling someone if you drive a chev you might as well walk. Just my thought on it.

[oldred]

No one said BP or nothing unless I missed something, I have to admit that most of the thread got a bit off kilter from the OP's question however. Anyway since you seem to have used all three types of powder I am asking why you would choose Pyrodex over a suitable smokeless? Just to be clear I have, several times in fact, pointed out that this is just out of curiosity and I am not insisting anyone choose any powder over another. I myself shoot smokeless often and in fact until not long ago I was saying I probably would never shoot BP in my cartridge rifles, too much hassle I thought so why bother? Reading about using real BP in these big single shot rifles got the best of me so I loaded up a few rounds to see what the fuss was all about, fuss indeed! This was just plain fun and opened up a whole new sport for me, I also discovered that the "fuss" over fouling, corrosion and cleaning of both cases and rifle was just part of what it's all about was actually a lot of "fuss" over nothing. Still there are times, depending on the situation, where smokeless is chosen over BP and this brings me to the question I have asked several times. Sure Pyrodex works and has an advantage over real BP due to less fouling but it has none of the attributes that we choose BP for in the first place, as I said before it loads, looks, shoots and smells different and some say it even sounds different plus most people seem to have good reason to consider it even more corrosive than real BP (although proper cleaning renders that a moot point) so it's obviously very different than BP. Smokeless offers all the advantages of Pyrodex vs BP with none of the drawbacks such as critical cleaning requirements and it all but eliminates corrosion problems with both cases and firearm, basically it is all the reasons for choosing Pyrodex as a sub but a whole lot more! So with Pyrodex offering few to none of the reasons for shooting real BP but all of the reasons a lot of folks choose not to I just can't help but wonder why not just shoot a BP equivalent smokeless load and avoid all the hassle? Of course smokeless is not traditional, it looks, loads, shoots and smells different than BP but then so does Pyrodex! Smokeless loads have all of the reasons for shooting a sub but none of the "fuss" of the sub or BP while Pyrodex offers few if any of the real reasons for shooting BP in the first place but still has all of the reasons a lot of people avoid shooting BP?

Again I am just discussing reasons for why I choose smokeless sometimes when I choose to shoot a "sub" and I am not in any way trying to tell anyone they shouldn't be shooting what they find to be their definition of fun. I think what I have been asking is a legitimate question but it seems that most times when I ask someone who is a fan of Pyrodex, etc about why it is chosen over smokeless when BP is not going to be used the answer is usually just reasons for why the sub is chosen over BP!

But then choosing either Pyrodex or smokeless cheats the shooter out of what the real BP sport is all about, NONE of the tradition, the pomp and that intoxicating smell can be experienced with either smokeless or any of the subs. :mrgreen:

[brad925]

Don't get me wrong. I shoot smokeless 90% of the time but with reloading components availability the way they are its nice to have the options. I just feel that some paint a bad picture of pyrodex leading others to believe that it will ruin your gun before the end of the day. I guess to answer the original question i think pyrodex is fine. Clean your gun when your finished shooting and it will be fine.

[ColColt]

This past Tuesday I took the Browning 45-70 to the range along with 35 rounds all loaded with Swiss 1.5. I also took my custom 270 Winchester along for the ride with 20 rounds. Guess which one took the longest time to get clean, get the powder and copper fouling out?

I run one or two wet 3" square patches down the bore of the 45-70 followed by 2-3 dry ones, clean the lube star off the crown, run an oily patch down the bore and chamber and voila, I'm done. Swiss burns cleaner in this rifle and the last dry patch looks as new. I'll spend 20+ minutes on the 270. I find it no chore to properly clean a BP rifle but a pain to clean a bolt action rifle after having shot 20 rounds with a case nearly full of H4831.

[dtknowles]

No one said BP or nothing unless I missed something, I have to admit that most of the thread got a bit off kilter from the OP's question however. Anyway since you seem to have used all three types of powder I am asking why you would choose Pyrodex over a suitable smokeless? Just to be clear I have, several times in fact, pointed out that this is just out of curiosity and I am not insisting anyone choose any powder over another. I myself shoot smokeless often and in fact until not long ago I was saying I probably would never shoot BP in my cartridge rifles, too much hassle I thought so why bother? .........But then choosing either Pyrodex or smokeless cheats the shooter out of what the real BP sport is all about, NONE of the tradition, the pomp and that intoxicating smell can be experienced with either smokeless or any of the subs. :mrgreen:

I think it has been mentioned a couple times but finding a smokeless load that works is harder than getting a good load with Pyrodex. This is particularly true with double rifles. Smokeless powder in big black powder cases is a challenging load development task and often fillers are recommended but double rifles have been damaged when fillers have been used. Published load data from reliable sources is limited. Small changes (weight variations) in powder charge with smokeless have much bigger effect on performance (accuracy, pressure).

Prefer less smoke, and less fouling and less cleaning but both barrels need to shoot to point of aim with the same ammo not create excessive pressure and produce reasonable groups. Black powder is the quickest way to get there but Pyrodex better in a couple ways. You said "But then choosing either Pyrodex or smokeless cheats the shooter out of what the real BP sport is all about, NONE of the tradition, the pomp and that intoxicating smell", none of that interests me.

Tim

[GOPHER SLAYER]

After asking for opinions on Pyrodex when I started this thread and reading all the replies I feel I should make a few comments on the answers I got. I shoot more smokeless loads than I do BP. My favorite load with smokeless is 15 grains of Unique. It gives me 1235 to 1250 FPS if I use a little wad to hold the powder against the prime. Only 15 grains looks mighty puny in that big case and I do worry about ringing the chamber though. The argument about this rages on and opinion is split about 50/50. One problem with shooting unique is the fact that it is harder to find than black powder. I thought it would be nice to find something that would fill the case and you could buy it across the counter. As for clean up after shooting BP, it's a piece of cake, at least when you're talking abut the rifle. The case are another matter. I found the easiest method is dump the cases in a container of vinegar and dish washing soap. If you don't clean the cases after shooting BP they will quickly be covered in green mung. [southern word] I share the feelings of many people who have become addicted to shooting BP and I hate the fact that the powers that be are making it more difficult to enjoy. I took a trapdoor to the range up in the high desert recently and it created quite a lot of interest. Everyone got a kick out of the big cloud of white smoke. If others wish to shoot smokeless or Pyrodex in there big bore single shots it's fine with me. There is a video on you tube of Steve Grullo,[ hope I spelled his name right] shooting a steel buffalo painted white. The distance is over eight hundred yards. He is shooting a Sharps Borchardt chambered for some large black powder case and paper patched bullets. From that site you can click on to many black powder matches and just plain fun shooting. I never get tired of watching them. Well I have rambled on enough. I want to once again thank all of you who responded to my question about Pyrodex and I am going to give it a try.

[oldred]

I use a little wad to hold the powder against the prime. Only 15 grains looks mighty puny in that big case and I do worry about ringing the chamber though.

If you are talking about using a wad to hold the powder back against the primer leaving an air space between the wad/powder and the bullet then I too would worry about a ringed chamber, I would worry a LOT! Using a filler that completely fills the vacant space between powder and bullet base seems to work ok but everything I have come to understand is that a wad and air space is a real problem. Apparently what happens is that the wad becomes a lightweight projectile in front of the powder charge being fired, when it hits the base of the bullet it's as if the bullet is a bore obstruction to the oncoming wad and shock wave. Either a complete filler or just loose powder seems to be ok but that wad and air space is kind of scary. BTW, the Winchester factory 45/70 loads have quite a bit of air space and they don't use a filler or a wad, they just leave the powder loose in the case. The very commonly used AA5744 powder also leaves a lot of empty space in these big cases and that powder was primarily meant for that purpose, AA recommends no wads or fillers. At least that's my take on it hopefully others will step in with more opinions.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

oldred, I have a box of Winchester 45-70 with 300 grain soft nose bullets. The info on the box states that the velocity is 1800 fps. I believe it. I fired one in a heavy barreled Siameze Mauser I have and it really coldcocked me. I talked Buckshot into firing two and the range master fired one. I braced myself and tried two more rounds. Others have helped to clear the brass. I have eight unfired. I just want the brass. I don't know what powder they put in the cases or how much but it is enough and I am confident there are no fillers between powder and bullet.. I wouldn't dream of shooting one of these rounds in a trapdoor. One of the well known black powder shooters [ I think it was Steve Garbe] wrote an article about using wads over smokeless and he says every rifle he examined so used had ringed chambers. Others say it isn't so.

[oldred]

oldred, I have a box of Winchester 45-70 with 300 grain soft nose bullets. The info on the box states that the velocity is 1800 fps. I believe it. I fired one in a heavy barreled Siameze Mauser I have and it really coldcocked me. I talked Buckshot into firing two and the range master fired one. I braced myself and tried two more rounds. Others have helped to clear the brass. I have eight unfired. I just want the brass. I don't know what powder they put in the cases or how much but it is enough and I am confident there are no fillers between powder and bullet.. I wouldn't dream of shooting one of these rounds in a trapdoor. One of the well known black powder shooters [ I think it was Steve Garbe] wrote an article about using wads over smokeless and he says every rifle he examined so used had ringed chambers. Others say it isn't so.



I failed to mention the 45/70 rounds I pulled were the 405 grain Trapdoor level loads and it was years ago, however I think they still use the same load in the 405 grain round. I pulled the bullets on the rounds I was talking about with the intention of using the componants for a heavier load for my Marlin 1895, those cases sure had a lot of air space with no wads or fillers.

With the obscene prices for factory loads these days I have serious doubts I will ever shoot another one.

[fouronesix]

oldred, I have a box of Winchester 45-70 with 300 grain soft nose bullets. The info on the box states that the velocity is 1800 fps. I believe it. I fired one in a heavy barreled Siameze Mauser I have and it really coldcocked me. I talked Buckshot into firing two and the range master fired one. I braced myself and tried two more rounds. Others have helped to clear the brass. I have eight unfired. I just want the brass. I don't know what powder they put in the cases or how much but it is enough and I am confident there are no fillers between powder and bullet.. I wouldn't dream of shooting one of these rounds in a trapdoor. One of the well known black powder shooters [ I think it was Steve Garbe] wrote an article about using wads over smokeless and he says every rifle he examined so used had ringed chambers. Others say it isn't so.

To anyone interested- pay attention to above post reference the Winchester factory ammo^^. Back about 1995 (+/-) I shot some of those same Winchester factory rounds in a Marlin GG lever. Too much is not an overstatement! I don't know if anyone has ever Kaboomed a trapdoor with that ammo, but I would never- ever shoot it in a trapdoor! It cannot be compared to the Remington 405 gr factory loads… that are fairly mild and are suited for the trapdoor.

Yes, neither of those (modern Win or Rem) factory 45-70 loads have any kind of filler or wad. The Winchester stuff obviously would be loaded with one of their ball powders. I'd guess the Remington (so called trapdoor ammo) 405 gr stuff would be loaded with something like 4198 or 3031 or similar powder to a velocity and pressure more or less in line with BP specs.

There is a huge difference between wad and filler and correct use of either- but that discussion has been beaten to death. I'll leave it for someone else.

[triggerhappy243]

I have to say too, I have used pyrodex rs for over 30 years. I clean as soon as i am done shooting. and I still have the same barrels........... clean, brite and shiny. you just have to be anal about your cleaning techniques. when in doubt, clean it again.

[Tackleberry41]

I have used Pyrodex, was I time I didnt know any better. It worked the little muzzle loader shooting I did. And as pointed out it is considerably easier to get than the real stuff. Most guns stores will have it or 777 or another sub sitting on a shelf. Wal mart carries it parts of the year. Real BP, its an hour and a half to Bass pro, or similar drive to one other place I know of here that has it. Again as pointed out storage is alot of headaches most places dont want to deal with for the few sales they will get. Your average ML user just wants it to go bang so arent going to seek out the real stuff.

I finally had to break down and order some, ff or fff is about all your going to find in stock, and they will only have one brand. So if you want anything else its the only way to get it. Smallest order I could find was 5lbs at a time. Do alot of shooting may not last so long, but for most will sit a long time gathering dust. I have no intention of throwing away the various subs I have picked up, they do still go boom.

Its odd I know a guy whos really big into BP shooting, some club hes a member of, this range on some property he owns they use sometimes. I figured he would have a large stock pile of it, no just 2 or 3 lbs at a time. Buys more when he needs it.

[ColColt]

If you shoot much at all five pounds of Swiss won't last that long. I've already been through a pound of it in the past 4-6 weeks. I order five or more pounds at a time from Powder, Inc and they usually have in stock what I want.

http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/

[Don McDowell]

I shot 2/3 of a pound of Eynsford yesterday, just fireforming and load testing 50 rounds for the 44-90 st... 5 lbs.is not very much powder..

[ColColt]

Now, that's one powder I've been wanting to try. Does it burn as clean as Swiss?

[Don McDowell]

Cleaner.

[ColColt]

Looks like an order is in the making.

[Don McDowell]

Order the same F as you did Swiss, and leave your measure set where it's at. Try a few and then go up 2 grs. Most folks that are shooting both powders report 2 grs more of Eynsford puts them right where they were with Swiss. YMMV..

[ColColt]

Thanks, I was about to ask whether 1.5 or 2F would be better. I'm using the 1.5 in the 45-70 with good results...normally if I do my part.

[beroen]

I don't use Pyrodex and don't ask me what I think of it
^^^ ditto ^^^


GOEX all the way

[country gent]

I bought a mixed case ( 25 lbs) of swiss 1.5 F and 2F Old Ensford 1.5F and 2 f it was heavy on the 2F Old ensford. The old ensford is burning very clean in my 40-65 at 56 grns charge wieght. I have very light fouling and a couple breaths thru the blow tube seems to be controling the fouling. It meters well and seems very consistant so far. My load ios 400 grn Old West Nasa bullet ( one large grease groove and a shallower seating depth) Starline brass, trimmed, annealed, deburred with vld angle deburring cutter, Flash holes deburred, and primer pockets uniformed. Rem large rifle primers hand seated. 56 grns Old Ensford 2f powder compressed with .060 Napa rubber fiber wad to .465 from case mouth. Bullet seated to just compress another .005. This is working for me very well now. I havent started working with the swiss powders yet. I was using GOEX 2 f before and struggling some. I am impressed with the diffrences in using the Old Ensford

[beroen]

My reasons for asking about Pyrodex or simple. In commiefornia black powder is getting more difficult to get. About the only way to obtain it is by ordering it. I talked to a distributer yesterday and he said, "dealing in PB is just too much trouble. Govt agents swoop down on you and you have to spend 3-4 hours taking inventory and accounting for every pound. If one is missing, you are in for a big hassle". The man went on to tell me that he sells a lot of Pyrodex. I have never used Pyrodex or any other substitute nor do I want to. I have never heard anything good about any of them. I gave away 3 pounds of the stuff two years ago when we moved into are present digs. I have several large caliber black powder rifles and I do love to shoot black powder in them. I went to the range in Yucca Valley, Ca. two days ago and the man running the range asked me where you could buy black powder and I told him I would check when I got home and call him back. I came home, got on the phone and called many gun shops. Most don't even answer the phone, you leave a message. The stores that did answer had no idea where you could get any black powder. The man at the range also said," since the military no longer uses black powder that there isn't as much profit in its MFG as there used to be".
Is there no local muzzleloader club around you?

They usually do club buys on black and would be glad to help out.

[ColColt]

I had five pounds of Goex 2F but after buying Swiss 1.5 I don't know that I'll ever go back to Goex. Not only is Swiss cleaner but groups are much better. I look forward to trying Olde Ensyford soon.

[country gent]

Im going to burn up the last few pounds of goex in my muzzle loaders. On the 50 and 54 it wont take long LOL

[ColColt]

Maybe I should dust off my old Zouave 58 cal and burn that Goex up I have. At 70-90 gr per charge it shouldn't take too long either.

[beroen]

I had five pounds of Goex 2F but after buying Swiss 1.5 I don't know that I'll ever go back to Goex. Not only is Swiss cleaner but groups are much better. I look forward to trying Olde Ensyford soon.
I would like to try those soon also.. need to ask at the LGS if they can get me some next time they order GOEX

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Is there no local muzzleloader club around you?

They usually do club buys on black and would be glad to help out.
The only gun clubs I know of close by are cowboy action shooters and they don't shoot BP. There are PBCS matches near San Diego but the drive and getting there on time make it impossible for me to attend. I rarely see anyone shooting a muzzle loader anymore.

[ColColt]

I got 2 # of Olde Eynsford today and by looks it's very similar to Goex...coarser grains. I used the same 64 gr charge that I use with Swiss and had to compress the Eynsford an additional .125" to be able to seat the bullet the same OAL as with Swiss. Anxious to try it out but not until it warms up.

[rmark]

I can load more easily and more shots between cleanings in my muzzleloaders with Pyrodex's softer fouling. I clean the guns with hot water as soon as I get home, oiling with Hoppes afterward, and have no rust problems. Pyrodex RS does not bump up minie balls to grab the rifling in my repro enfield musket.

Black has a harder fouling, I need to wipe the bore with a damp patch about every 5 shots when using it in my roundball guns (our hot dry summers may be part of this). The slip fit of the soft lubed minies in the musket works well with blackpowder.

I'm slowly using up 12 year old Pyrodex and mid-1990' Goex and Elephant blackpowder from an estate. Still have a few pounds to go.

[CanoeRoller]

I use Pyrodex most of the time. There are some restrictive rules regarding BP where I live. It is a decent powder, though it is harder to ignite than BP, it is permitted in BPCRS, and it is my fallback. I would prefer BP, and would shoot it if I were more active as a competitor.

It is very nice to go an buy a pound or two at the local shop.

I find it only a tiny bit more corrosive than BP. A decent cleaning routine keeps the bores of my rifles clean and my brass like new.

[Bob Maerdian]

If you go to a Black Powder rondezvous, usually muzzleloaders attend, you can purchase Black Powder from the various suttlers. These rondezvous are held all over the state (the PR-Californica). I attend the rondezvous at Mountain Ranch (near Jackson on hwy 49). and Brushy Creek, just east of Beale AFB. I wont use Pryrodex, one of its by products is cyanide and it is terribly corrosive, see comments by Dick Trenk, former factory rep for Pedrisoli. He, Dick Trenk, died a few years ago. Also check the comments of Bill (William) Knight both can be found on the Cast Bullet Association Forum list. Bob 11B50

[Maven]

"I wont use Pryrodex (sic) one of its by products is cyanide and it is terribly corrosive...." BM

Bob, You'll get no argument from me about how corrosive Pyrodex is. However, it's the potassium salts and not the cynanide, as you assert, which do most of the damage as they are hygroscopic. Moreover, one of the products [of combustion] of real BP is also potassium thiocyanide according to Sam Fadala* who cites the article, "Muzzle Loading Chemistry" by Joe W. Craig in Muzzle Blasts, October, 1972, p. 9). Bill Knight aka "the mad monk," I'm sure will agree that cyanide is a byproduct of BP combustion as well.

*Sam Fadala, "Black Powder Loading Manual" (DBI Books: 1982), p. 36

[triggerhappy243]

SOMETHING WORTH MENTIONING.........X2, EPA, and other govt. agencies would not allow any product used by the general public to be so dangerous as cyanide. there are many types of cyanide in chemical versions... and I am sure that "IF" BP and pyrodex produce cyanide, it is the "NON-TOXIC" version.

secondly, the "SALTS" are the key ingredients needed to make the residue corrosive. I hear so many people bash pyrodex because of the corrosive traits. Just do a good job of cleaning the barrel and quit whining about it. Heck, I had a Winchester XTR in 30-30 and the salt from my holding it with my bare hand created rust. Wake up America-

[Dan4570]

Yes I have used it, because I used to get it for free...However if pyrodex or other substitutes are my only option to shoot....then I will be digging out the recipe, gathering the few ingredients I have to buy and fermenting a jar of urine (I can make it @ no cost) and I will start my making own black powder. (havent tried it yet, the turn off is that I have to open and poor in the the jar of fermented we-we to it)
I do not shoot anything other than real black, it neutralizes with water, and I normally clean all of my black powder arms with water, and they get fed Vigilante Lubes only!
Pyrodex and other substitutes are about 2 to 10 times more corrosive than real black powder depending on the brand. They grow hard fouling, and in my experience, and the stories I have heard from others, it is harder to ignight, giving normal results of missfires and hang fires.
Save your self a headache and go to Powder Inc. and order yourself some real black powder.

[Dan4570]

Hazmat charge is about $25 bucks. Just order enough to make it worth wile to order it.

[wgr]

guess im lucky. i go to friendship and get my black.

[Col. Cornelius]

I use it in shotgun shells only for Cowboy Action Shooting. Been doing it for years, works just fine for shotgun!

[dtknowles]

Used Pyrodex RS in my 12 x 44 R this past weekend (30 rounds). Nice groups, no hard fouling, cleaned up fine with water. The cases did get a little tarnish.

No reason to not use Pyrodex if you want too.

Tim

[Sharpsman]

There's always 'one'!!

[triggerhappy243]

Always one what?

[rfd]

if there is no local drive-to outlet for it, there is no reason other than money for not using the real deal black powder.

there are more than a few online vendors that will mail order bp out to ya. i use maine powder house.

do the dollar math ... goex @ maine powder house is $16.55/lb, 5lb is $82.75 + $26 hazmat + $17 shipping = $125.75, or $25.15/lb. increase the order to the max of 25lbs @ $413.75 and there is no hazmat fee and no shipping fee - do that in a group order with yer buds if necessary.

so yeah, there is that d@mn hazmat fee, so order as much as yer wallet (or group order) will allow ... it gets used up quickly, typically lots faster than smokeless.

[oldred]

You are right and I myself have pointed out that very same thing, usually the mail order base prices are so much lower than "off the shelf" store prices that it will pretty much cancel out the extra shipping costs when buying in quantity but several folks have pointed out that they just buy a pound at a time and find it much cheaper and simpler to just buy the phony stuff at WalMart. It may be simpler but in the long run it's not cheaper, key words there being "in the long run" because some folks find it a lot easier to spend $20 or less spread out rather than laying out $150 or even a lot more than that at one time. For someone who only shoots a pound or so a season I have to admit it probably does make more sense, 5 lbs of powder may not last some of us long at all but it's a lot of powder for others so while it took me a while to realize that I suppose those folks do have a valid point.

[rfd]

group mail order buys are where it's at with bp for lotsa folks. this is where it pays to know locals using the the holy black and make purchase plans *before* y'all run out. so the real work might be finding others via clubs, ranges, lgs, or even via newspaper or pennysaver ads.

[oldred]

Yes group buys are an option but it kind of surprised me at just how many folks wanted only a pound of powder. I guess either I shoot too much or they shoot to little, Lol (at myself) but in any case I suppose if a person buys only a pound of powder and still has some of that left a year later then maybe just buying a sub might make sense. However it just brings me back to the same thing I have asked several times in the past, if a person don't want to shoot real BP for whatever the reason may be why not just shoot an appropriate smokeless "sub" in cartridge firearms? It's no more different than the real thing than shooting a sub so why bother with the fuss of shooting a sub when that's not BP shooting either?

[rfd]

one pound of black hasta mean very very little loading/shooting. at 7000 grains per pound, that'd be 100 rounds of .45-70 on the average. somewhat less for lesser loads, smaller s/s rifles, larger caliber muzzle loaders, and maybe 200 or so of western pistol rounds. that ain't much shooting happening at all, a pound goes real fast.

[oldred]

Exactly why it surprised me so much but the fact is that's all a lot folks shoot, for these it's mostly a hunting season thing and the rifle don't see much use the rest of the year. My take on it is that as long as a person enjoys what he/she is shooting and is doing it safely then have fun because that's what it's all about, the BP sport is just that BP and either a sub or smokeless is a deviation from that but unless it's a BP dedicated event then shooting these old time guns and cartridges is a much broader sport and no one should fuss at a person for what he/she chooses to shoot it as long as it's done safely. I think everyone who shoots these old timers should at least try real BP and give it a serious consideration and I feel they are cheating themselves by missing out on the real thing but that's just me, I like to discuss it and discuss the reasons but this is to encourage them to try it not an attempt to goad them into doing it my way -as the old saying goes different strokes for different folks.

[texaswoodworker]

Of course I am not suggesting using smokeless in a ML or or cap&ball and I think we all pretty much understood this was about cartridge loads.

My point is if real BP is not going to be used why bother with a sub? Why not just use a BP equivalent smokeless load and avoid the hassle of using the sub?

Would you shoot smokeless in an M81 Vetterli circa 1887 or a Remington M67 Swedish Rollingblock circa 1874? Those are both cartridge guns and I wouldn't. I prefer the bolts of those gun to stay in the gun and not imbedded in my eye. I've heard of people using smokeless in those guns, but I'm not going to risk it over something STUPID like this. I use substitutes because I cannot find BP locally, I don't shoot enough of it to justify ordering 5 pounds or paying $30 for shipping, and because it works just fine in my rifles.


5 lbs of black powder delivered to your door, won't cost you anymore than 5 lbs of pyrodex ( and it is really sensitive to lot variation) and seriously in big bore rifle shooting even a 45-70 will only net you 500 rounds,, that's not many rounds if you shoot the thing at all.

You assume that others shoot as much BP as you do. Many don't. I've had a pound of powder for over a year, and have made it less than half way through it. Why should I buy 5 pounds of the stuff when I don't shoot it much? I'd rather spend that money on something I'd actually use.

[rfd]

yep, dif'rent strokes for dif'rent folks - it's all good in one's mind eye.

[oldred]

Would you shoot smokeless in an M81 Vetterli circa 1887 or a Remington M67 Swedish Rollingblock circa 1874? Those are both cartridge guns and I wouldn't. I prefer the bolts of those gun to stay in the gun and not imbedded in my eye. I've heard of people using smokeless in those guns, but I'm not going to risk it over something STUPID like this. I use substitutes because I cannot find BP locally, I don't shoot enough of it to justify ordering 5 pounds or paying $30 for shipping, and because it works just fine in my rifles.



You assume that others shoot as much BP as you do. Many don't. I've had a pound of powder for over a year, and have made it less than half way through it. Why should I buy 5 pounds of the stuff when I don't shoot it much? I'd rather spend that money on something I'd actually use.

There are smokeless loads that will produce less pressure than a BP load and makes it perfectly ok in most BP guns. However if you look back at my posts I have REPEATEDLY said in original BP firearms made of questionable steels and design strength then there is no margin for error at all and smokeless might be risky, or might not as long as it is a low pressure load. A better question might be why would it be stupid to shoot a smokeless load of less pressure than a full case of BP rather than shoot a sub who's claim to fame is that it produces MORE pressure than BP! That would seem stupid to me!

If the gun is that close to the border line then the higher pressure subs would seem to be as great or even a greater risk than a lower pressure smokeless load!


What's your problem, you accuse me of assuming everyone shoots as much as I do when I clearly said just the opposite I even explained and defended those who shoot only a small amount for exactly the same reasons you gave yet none of that mattered to you in the least and because you were somehow offended you resort to childish name calling?

Go back and read what I said before mouthing off!

[rfd]

precisely what oldred said.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I had some pyro-**** for my cap n ball pistols, it will degrade over a period of time so for even the casual shooter it does not really pay. I use a lot of powder most matches I attend will require a min of 45 rounds for a mid-range match each day. Ordering in 5 pounds means the casual shooter has a lifetime supply quite cheap. Of course, anyone can make an excuse for not, to each their own, just shoot.
KW

[Don McDowell]

You assume that others shoot as much BP as you do. Many don't. I've had a pound of powder for over a year, and have made it less than half way through it. Why should I buy 5 pounds of the stuff when I don't shoot it much? I'd rather spend that money on something I'd actually use.

If a person won't even shoot a pound of black in a year, they won't shoot a pound of substitute. Most of the substitutes loose energy after the can has been opened..
Just this past Saturday, I shot 50 rounds thru 2 rifles that used the same powder charge..(50 x81=4050 grs) so just with one simple load development session I used well over 1/2 lb of powder...
Back in the day when I shot muzzleloaders, if we didn't burn a pound of powder in a weekend it was a pretty miserable weekend, unless we went fishin...

[Knarley]

I tried some Pyrodex in a cannon that shoots golf balls not too long ago. The cannon went FOOOMPF and the golf ball rolled down range about 20 ft.
Same load with real black, well, the ball went into orbit.
I've hunted pheasants with it ONCE, never again. That being said, if that was all I could get, and the zombies were at the door, I'd use my sword.

Knarley

[rfd]

... That being said, if that was all I could get, and the zombies were at the door, I'd use my sword. ...

too funny! :lol:

[triggerhappy243]

Golf balls do not count as cannon fodder... Not a fair comparison.

[texaswoodworker]

There are smokeless loads that will produce less pressure than a BP load and makes it perfectly ok in most BP guns. However if you look back at my posts I have REPEATEDLY said in original BP firearms made of questionable steels and design strength then there is no margin for error at all and smokeless might be risky, or might not as long as it is a low pressure load. A better question might be why would it be stupid to shoot a smokeless load of less pressure than a full case of BP rather than shoot a sub who's claim to fame is that it produces MORE pressure than BP! That would seem stupid to me!

If the gun is that close to the border line then the higher pressure subs would seem to be as great or even a greater risk than a lower pressure smokeless load!

There are very few smokeless loads available for either of those cartridges. I have tried one smokeless load in my Vetterli. very light charge of Trail Boss. It didn't shoot worth a darn. It may have shot better had I increased the charge, but I don't see a point in risking it when I can just use a substitute that already shoots much better.

As for the substitutes having higher pressure, I have always read that a 100gr volumetric charge of Pyrodex is extremely similar to Goex FFg.


Pyrodex is the most common "black powder substitute." It is really the only synthetic black powder "performance" substitute in common use. By performance substitute, I refer to a charge of loose powder measure by volume. A 100 grain volumetric charge of Pyrodex RS (Rifle/Shotgun) is very close in performance to Goex FFg black powder.

There are differences, though, and this is where things get a bit convoluted. Pyrodex is bulkier, another way of saying "less dense." By weight, it is more powerful than Goex black powder. But, the traditional method of measuring black powder is indeed by volume, so in that sense it is a black powder performance substitute.

By actual weight, it is not the same. 100 grains measured by volume of Goex FFg is about 101.3 grains by weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex RS is about 72.5 grains by weight. Pyrodex is where confusion can start to set in, as the standard "F" designations of powder coarseness start to go out the window.

Pyrodex "Select," formulated for use in muzzleloading rifles, is touted as an "extremely consistent" grade of Pyrodex, and has the largest grain size of them all. It is even farther away from black powder by actual weight; 100 grains volumetric equals about 63.9 grains by actual weight.

Pyrodex, though man-made and with a variety of additives, still has sulfur in it and is corrosive. It is classified as a smokeless powder by the DOT, and bears little resemblance to traditional black powder in actual weight or grain size. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder, and is safer to handle, use, and store due to this fact. It is also not as impact-sensitive as is true black powder. Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive as is black powder, and is sold at many chain stores due to this fact.


What's your problem, you accuse me of assuming everyone shoots as much as I do when I clearly said just the opposite I even explained and defended those who shoot only a small amount for exactly the same reasons you gave yet none of that mattered to you in the least and because you were somehow offended you resort to childish name calling?

Go back and read what I said before mouthing off!

How about practicing what you preach? The part of my post that you quoted was not directed towards you. It was directed towards Don. Also, please show me where I called anyone a name. I don't recall doing so and I cannot find a single instance of name calling in my post. The worst thing I did was call the BP vs substitute argument stupid. I didn't insult or attack a single person.

What was that about going back and reading what I said before mouthing off? :P


If a person won't even shoot a pound of black in a year, they won't shoot a pound of substitute. Most of the substitutes loose energy after the can has been opened..
Just this past Saturday, I shot 50 rounds thru 2 rifles that used the same powder charge..(50 x81=4050 grs) so just with one simple load development session I used well over 1/2 lb of powder...
Back in the day when I shot muzzleloaders, if we didn't burn a pound of powder in a weekend it was a pretty miserable weekend, unless we went fishin...

Ok, If you can't even shoot a full pound in a year, how does it make sense to buy 5 pounds of the stuff when your not going to use it?

[dromia]

OK gentlemen lets back off, avoid escalting and just debate the topic without leading to rancour, that way we avoid thread locking infractions etc.

[cajun shooter]

134878134878

This is a picture of my "NEW AT THE TIME TTN SHOTGUN" after it was returned to me from the companies gunsmith that did warranty work for them. He was located in Illinois and I was told to send the 2 day old shotgun to him for warranty repair. The gun was very hard to break open for loading and was of no use to me for shooting my SASS matches.
I advised the gunsmith via phone that I shot nothing but BP and that I wanted the gun tested with the same loads that I shot in competition. He stated that he did not load BP himself but had a close friend who shot BP in SASS matches in Illinois and that he could get some test rounds from him.
What took place next is why I have a huge problem with people who say they shoot BP, then you find out that they actually shoot Pyrodex, APP, 777 or some other sub powder. After the gunsmith finished his work and test fired the gun with the BP rounds from his friend, he boxed it up and sent it to my FFL.
I was notified that the gun had come in and when I opened the box, I almost hit the floor. I could not believe that this piece of rust was my gun. The outside of the gun was also full of rust spots, especially around the chamber area of the SXS. I notified EMF from whom I had purchased the gun. Walt Johnson was working for them at the time. I told him my story and sent him about 12 pictures mof what I had received.
I advised him that I had called the gunsmith and he advised that he had cleaned the gun after the test firing and that he could sell that gun to anyone. The gun was on the UPS truck for 3 1/2 days. He said that his friend always shot BP and the brand was Pyrodex. I had to laugh when he told me that. I explained that Pyrodex was not real BP and that I was not going to argue with him.
The gunsmith had a new TTN on order so EMF sent me that gun and sent the gun in the picture to the gunsmith so he could sell it to anybody as he had stated.
I told the gunsmith that if he had used real BP and not a sub, we would not have a problem as I shoot matches on Saturday and don't clean my guns until Monday or Tuesday without one problem. They still have many who shoot subs and say they shoot BP, even asking on this forum what is the difference in their load and one with Goex 2F. It will never cease I guess. Later David

[bangerjim]

Dirty and corrosive? That explains why I see boxes of bottles of this stuff at LGS's for 50-75% discounts!

I guess i could use some for fireworks?

banger-j

[triggerhappy243]

Banger, tell me what stores are selling this at 50 to 75% discounts. I want 2 cases of it.

[oldred]

Banger, tell me what stores are selling this at 50 to 75% discounts. I want 2 cases of it.


Not right at this moment but WallyWorld often has it for that at the end of the season, the trick is to be there when they clearance it!

[triggerhappy243]

Out here in abq, it does not last but 20 minutes here. And rarely drops below $15.00 per pound.

[triggerhappy243]

Pyrodex is very popular around here. Our dry climate makes it stable and lasts for years.

[rfd]

i have no experience with 777 but i can relate my sad personal experience with pyrodex ... weaker and incredibly more corrosive than real black powder. that pyrodex krap nearly ruined a pedersoli kentucky flintlock, and it took me nearly 3 weeks of daily scrubs with pb blaster and patches to clean out the red rust/corrosion down in the barrel's chamber. if there was only a choice between pyrodex or not shooting, that flinter would still be hanging over the fireplace.

[str8shot426]

I tried it twice. First shot was a hangfire, the second didn't fire.

Gave the rest away. Nothing but black here.

[usmc1963]

make the bp yourself its not hard to do:bigsmyl2:

[MikeA]

Anyone touch on Pyrodex being compressed. I loaded 70gr by volume. 060 felt wad compressed roughly .125". On bpcr.net it was showing that it would clump at that compression and basically blow up your rifle. Anyone chime in on this? Don't mean to hijack this thread but it does refer to Pyrodex. Only being I have about 25rds that I'm now iffy on firing.

[Don McDowell]

It won't blow your rifle up when compressed. When it first came out that's the only way it would shoot worth a poop in cartridge guns was to compress the snot out of it.

[MikeA]

Thanks Don McDowell. That's what I figured. Seems the more I read the forum I start second guessing myself in some areas. Not a fan of Pyrodex but I want to try it and see what happens. Seriously need to make my own. Note I just need an hour to shoot it and a day to clean it.

[triggerhappy243]

That sounds a little excessive.

[triggerhappy243]

I get mine cleaned in about an hour.

[Don McDowell]

MikeA , if you used a 70 gr volume measure , that's the way Pyrodex was designed to be used. The amount you compressed it falls right in line with Hogdons suggestion to compress 1/8 inch.

[rfd]

there's just too much fuss and hearsay about bp firearm clean up.

WATER is either the only, or the main, ingredient required.

i like to add in a bit of ballistol, others use windex or washer fluid or whatever.

that's it, that's all. water. who'da thunk. it's actually easier than messing with smokeless, and less toxic.

ymmv.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Rfd what do you use for the fixed carbon left behind? Water does not touch it.
KW

[M-Tecs]

There are very few smokeless loads available for either of those cartridges. I have tried one smokeless load in my Vetterli. very light charge of Trail Boss. It didn't shoot worth a darn. It may have shot better had I increased the charge, but I don't see a point in risking it when I can just use a substitute that already shoots much better.


Not a fan of Trail Boss. Way to much pressure for the velocity. Some good smokeless loads in post 19. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21917-Vetterli-centerfire-conversion

[rfd]

Rfd what do you use for the fixed carbon left behind? Water does not touch it.
KW

kenny - there's Never any in the barrel and chamber, so ... "fixed carbon" (hard 'n' crusty?) left where? in the action and receiver? baked on because it was never addressed? or that the brass was too hard and so there was blowback into the chamber and action?

[oldred]

Not a fan of Trail Boss. Way to much pressure for the velocity. Some good smokeless loads in post 19. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21917-Vetterli-centerfire-conversion

Some folks seem to want to relate those very anemic velocities from Trail Boss with low pressure and indeed I have talked with people who thought TB was a BP sub! Nothing could be farther from the truth and TB produces waaaaaay more pressure at some velocities vs some other slower burning smokeless powders, a look at Hodgdon's loading data could come as a big surprise to a lot of folks. There are of course several suitable smokeless powders/loads that will give similar to BP performance at less pressure but Trail Boss is certainly not one of them!

[texaswoodworker]

Some folks seem to want to relate those very anemic velocities from Trail Boss with low pressure and indeed I have talked with people who thought TB was a BP sub! Nothing could be farther from the truth and TB produces waaaaaay more pressure at some velocities vs some other slower burning smokeless powders, a look at Hodgdon's loading data could come as a big surprise to a lot of folks. There are of course several suitable smokeless powders/loads that will give similar to BP performance at less pressure but Trail Boss is certainly not one of them!

This is why I didn't like it in my Vetterli. The velocity was way too low. It's easier to use a BP sub in that gun and get similar velocity and pressure to the real stuff.

[texaswoodworker]

Not a fan of Trail Boss. Way to much pressure for the velocity. Some good smokeless loads in post 19. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21917-Vetterli-centerfire-conversion

I'm very cautious about what loads I put in that gun, but I'll look into them. Thanks. :)

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Fixed carbon you can not see, it is there water won't touch it, it is a film that does and will build up.

KW

[waksupi]

Try some Goop hand cleaner. It took moly out of my barrel, it may work on carbon.

[rfd]

Fixed carbon you can not see, it is there water won't touch it, it is a film that does and will build up.

KW

where???

i never have that in the barrel/chamber. not ever. i soften and partially push the fouling out of the tube with brush and patch after every shot, and then a total clean within hours of the last shot.

action and receiver can be a different story, and that's why i take it all apart on a regular basis and scrub out the krap with a mixture of water and ballistol.

[triggerhappy243]

Reading all these replies, i sense that different climates leaves different issues with powder residue in the barrel. I live in a dry climate...i shoot with pyrodex, powder fouling buildup has never been an issue. When i do my full blown cleanup, i also employ a bronze bore brush. Giving alot of attention to the breech end of my muzzleloader..... And i scrub til there is no more black water draining from the nipple hole. I also use 0000 steel wool with some oil and scrub that some too. Barrel still looks shiny like new. Hmmmmmmmmm, what am i doing wrong?

[bigted]

so here is an experiment to do with all you WATER n SOAP [or whatever you mix with your water]. take a bottle of some sort of an ammonia gun cleaner [ shooters choice ect ] and apply to a clean patch ... swab your blackpowder/sub shooting bore and allow to set for 5 minutes ... then with another clean patch swab the bore and observe the black brownish color on that new white cloth patch ... now repeat till there be no color on your clean patch's ... this is the "fixed carbon" that is mentioned. it is in every fire arm that shoots a combustible fuel.

this can be a accuracy ruination after so many shots and ignored in whole or part. important also is the barrel conditioning needed after such a cleaning is finished ... a good oil is a must and I apply some good ol Hopps #9 before I apply the good preserving oil to the bore and action. this way the BARE metal is continuously protected from all putrid applications of whatever residue is left behind.

I did not believe it either until I did a deep clean on my modern rifle that had non other then GOEX thrown thru the barrel in a combustion application and was sure that I had it super clean and never put it away with any dirt whatsoever ... but I was wrong with the carbon ... now thusely I deep clean every 3 or 4 times I load and shoot the weapons I relish and love to continue to fool with.

[BlackPowderBen]

Anybody use Pyrodex and if so' what do you think of it?

It works fine, gets the job done. Just started making bp now so I'll be using the real deal from now on

[BlackPowderBen]

make the bp yourself its not hard to do:bigsmyl2:
Right on bud

[Walkingwolf]

I use both Pyro, and BP. BP is fun, but for me Pyro in hunting, or self defense loads perform. I use RS in both pistols, and rifles, and cartridges. All are a tightly compressed load. With my 1858 Remy I consistently get over 1000fps with the RS compressed load. The guns get cleaned after every use. If it is a SD shooting your gun is junk, it does not matter whether it is black, or pyro. The police will keep the gun for evidence, and it will be rusted to no repair after a month. So I don't see the fuss, ya like BP, use BP. Like Pyro, use Pyro, or use both. Pyro is easier to get at most LGS, it works, and gives the velocity I need. I use Goex and it comes no where close for SD, and hunting.

America is the great land of free choice, well for now it is. Exercise that free choice.

[dromia]

I use C2R for getting rid of the fixed carbon.

[Grapeshot]

This is a bit dated, but I plan to answer it anyway. Pack in the mid 1970's Pyrodex was the only game in town if you couldn't find Real Black Powder. I picked up my first can of Pyrodex in 1976. I would shoot it out of my T/C Hawken. I was trained right when it came to BP clean-up, do it asap with HOT Soapy Water. Dry it out and oil to keep it from rusting. The key is VERY HOT Soapy Water. The hotter the better. The metal gets hot and the water evaporates. A few dry patches down the bore and then a light coat of oil. Keeping this practice keeps my guns rust free. It has only been the last few years that I've heard of Pyrodex being corrosive as acid.

As I've said. Clean as soon as possible after shooting. Within hours, not days.

[john.k]

Once upon a time shooters valued their guns and were happy to clean and oil them properly......that time has passed...the young now want convenience...and excuses .........pyrodex has always been highly corrosive,and still is......certainly not near as corrosive as any mineral acid.......the whole reason for pyrodex was its explosive classification...and still is.....the young need plastic guns with stainless barrels and need not stain their soft hands with oil.

[triggerhappy243]

Why John, Whatever do you mean?

[salpal48]

Here we go again . The rantings of the "Holy BLack People" . Doom and Gloom. Casting Spells

[triggerhappy243]

salpal48, I use pyrodex............ because it is readily available. I have nothing against real black. There are a few that are/were brainwashed about pyro. I can say with mass amounts of experience................ it is all about your housekeeping regiment. Do a good and thorough barrel cleaning with the correct cleaning agents and the barrel will shine just like a 40 year old mirror.

[salvadore]

Has the composition of Pyrodex changed? I started using pyrodex in 1971 in a 1858 Rem copy. With BP the shooter got nasty dirty and really was corrosive. The Pyro was cleaner, less barrel fouling and NOT seriously corrosive. I learned this when after shooting I put the revolver away and forgot about it for a week or two before cleaning. No corrosion noted. Five or so years ago I was working with an Uberti Win 73 copy in .45 Colt, and pyrodex. Accuracy sucked, but Accuracy sucked with every load I tried. Anywas clean up was easy.

I can't say that you won't get corrosion in Georgia, but in Idaho....Maybe it was 1972

[Old Caster]

When my friend Gary and I started shooting BPCR matches some years ago we were told that the best black to use was the most expensive which kind of turned us off because common sense says that is never for sure. We also heard that with black powder it was necessary to use a blow tube constantly or you couldn't get the next bullet to chamber but with Pyrodex it wasn't. Since we were shooting at 600 yards, we did a lot of experimenting with both powders and a bunch of different bullets. Something we recognized was that cleaning the guns at the end of the shoot was about the same regardless of powder and since the accuracy was similar with all powders we used the Pyrodex. While experimenting with powder depth and how it affected accuracy I noticed that when pouring an amount of powder the height varied greatly depending on the powder with Pyrodex being the worst unless the powder was poured into the funnel as slowly as possible. Both of us found that pressing the powder .180 gave us the best accuracy in both guns and I made a small motor from a hair dryer spin an offset round piece of metal so it would vibrate and connected it to a drop tube with round inserts in the funnel at the top with the correct size hole drilled in it so the powder would drop at the correct and consistent speed. Our accuracy went through the roof and we started to dominate the matches. Our accuracy was the best and we had more time because we didn't have to use a blow tube. Both of us shot 40/65. Pyrodex is indeed fine.

[salvadore]

Gadzooks, 'the holy black wowsers won't like this.

[omgb]

I have been shooting MLs and cap revolvers since the mid 1970s. I have used a lot of Pyrodex. I have no issues with it but then, I clean my guns, I don't shoot flinters and I never pay any heed to half of the absolute crap I read online or hear being passed around at the range. Most guys never really empirically test any thing. Most repeat oft told tales. Some form opinions without any real personal experience on the subject. Look, Pyrodex has some draw backs. But, it will not damage your gun if used as directed. It will not blow up. It is easier to find, buy and store than BP. It is not more corrosive than acid. It cleans up with hot soap and water. People have issues with it leaving soot in cartridge guns. Sure...the pressures are low enough that the cases may not seal as absolutely to the cylinder walls. Big deal. Clean up with hot soapy water.

If Pyrodex is the only game in your area, use it....and don't look back. You'll be just fine.
CA Hunter Ed Instructor
NRA RSO, Rifle, Shotgun and BP instructor
Baby Boomer
Veteran

[triggerhappy243]

I have been shooting MLs and cap revolvers since the mid 1970s. I have used a lot of Pyrodex. I have no issues with it but then, I clean my guns, I don't shoot flinters and I never pay any heed to half of the absolute crap I read online or hear being passed around at the range. Most guys never really empirically test any thing. Most repeat oft told tales. Some form opinions without any real personal experience on the subject. Look, Pyrodex has some draw backs. But, it will not damage your gun if used as directed. It will not blow up. It is easier to find, buy and store than BP. It is not more corrosive than acid. It cleans up with hot soap and water. People have issues with it leaving soot in cartridge guns. Sure...the pressures are low enough that the cases may not seal as absolutely to the cylinder walls. Big deal. Clean up with hot soapy water.

If Pyrodex is the only game in your area, use it....and don't look back. You'll be just fine.
CA Hunter Ed Instructor
NRA RSO, Rifle, Shotgun and BP instructor
Baby Boomer
Veteran

amen brother.

[winelover]

I'll give it another. I use the "P" version for both pistols and rifles.

Winelover

[Combat Diver]

Been shooting it for decades. Break down guns and clean with hot soapy water, then oil.

CD

[alamogunr]

I bought a lb of Pyrodex P several years ago to use in the Ruger Old Army(Stainless). Before I used any, I found several lbs of real black. Used that ever since. After reading most of this thread, I think I will try the Pyrodex. At least until it is gone.

I will admit that I have always been somewhat uneasy about cleaning the ROA. Just how far do you need to break it down to clean? I'm not comfortable going any further than removing the cylinder and scrubbing it and the barrel and exterior with hot water and then oiling. Any further advice?

[junkbug]

You should remove the nipples, cleaning the threads, and treat them with automotive anti-seize for your regular cleaning, in my opinion.

[FergusonTO35]

Pyrodex can shoot really well, but it has always produced more misfires in sidelocks for me than anything else. By comparison, T7 has been blackpowder reliable so I am going to stick with it. The fact that T7 is very much non-corrosive and cleans easily seals the deal.

[BigAlofPa.]

I like Pyrodex in my inline. I use goex in my flintlock.