finaly, better bullets

[chevyiron420]

folks, i had nearly given up on boolit casting because i was working my self crazy to make mostly bad boolits with voids in the bases and sides. last week i realized two things, first i thought the trouble was traped gas or air, and second all i was casting with were fairly new lee molds. i never had this trouble before, but i was useing lyman and rcbs molds in the past. i decided to try dipping some boolits with the lee molds and see what happened. so, i got my old little lee dipping pot and lyman ladle out. it took a few minutes to get the hang of it again, but, BINGO! now im only haveing about 10 rejects per hundred and those rejects look better than the best from the bottom pour!
does anyone have a idea why this happened, or are the lee molds just that bad?--phil

[725]

Sounds like the bottom pour has a clogged spout (pours slow), your temps are too low, or the mould has problems with venting. Since you are make good boolits with a dipper, that last option would seem unlikely. Lee moulds can make very fine boolits. I'm assuming your moulds have been degreased and preped. Sure is fun when you get the bugs worked out.

[Bass Ackward]

You don't mention caliber, but at some point I always ladle. That cut off for me is around 500 grains. I won't waste my time trying to bottom pour above that level. Not that you can't, just that I won't trust it cause my goal is zero rejects. If I can't get it one way, I will definitely switch.

[HORNET]

Even after the cavities have been smoked, aluminum molds seem to like hotter alloy temperatures. Then, of course, there's the long running dipper vs. bottom pour argument. I usually ladle anything over about 2 calibers long.

[Bret4207]

Lee moulds are fine. It's either your technique or the BP pot you're using. Personally, I think BP's are tools of satan. They just don't work for me. Everyone I've used has been possessed. Ladle pouring always works for everyone I've talked to or heard of. Some just like the BP for whatever reason, speed they say.

[44man]

Me too, all of my BP pots have the holes plugged and all the trash on top removed so there is more room for my dipper. For over 52 years I have tried the BP numerous times and gave up long ago. Too much work and time taken to keep the spout clear, etc. Never used 1/4 of the pot before I had to fool with something.
I like the free, easy dipping and lack of a mess all over the bench from leaks and drips.
I get zero rejects most of the time with even the first boolit perfect.

[bullshot]

+1 Brett
I also have much better luck with the dipper than the bottom pour.

[mtgrs737]

When I get boolits with voids in the bases and sides it is usually because of oil on the mould (I get a little carried away with the bull plate sometimes). I run my pot at 800 degrees and I don't bother with smoking the cavities now that I have Leemented the moulds. Once up to temp my moulds produce well filled out boolits. The alloy is WW + 10 - 20% linotype.

[montana_charlie]

There seems to be three main differences of opinion within the membership when the conversation focuses on 'bullet quality'.
There is the bottom pour or dipper question; frosted compared to shiney; and straight WW versus alloys with a 'high' tin component.

I wonder how much the interelationship of those three elements affects a caster's idea of 'good bullets'.

Does one guy love the bottom spout because he also freely accepts frost on his WW bullets?
Is he also likely to be the guy who says he runs his Lee pot at it's highest setting?

Compare him to the dipper guy who demands 'shine' from his 20-1 alloy. Does he get good fillout with a 750 setting because the metal near the surface is hot enough to do it...but alloy down below is too cool to make a bottom spout work effectively?

Occasionally we hear from the BPCR shooter who is getting shiney 500 grain bullets from a bottom spout with 'soft' lead/tin alloy. But he is (either) a rare bird, or I am just remembering something that was never actually said.

It has been said that WW requires a 'hot' pot. Does that mean frost is unavoidable with that alloy?
In order to keep the bottom spout hot enough to not plug up, does that also require alloy of a temperature that will likely cause frost?

I guess what I'm asking is if 'shine' must be traded off when 'speed' is the prime directive.
If that is the case, can you buy 'shine' for bottom pour WW bullets by spending the money for more tin...or do you have to give up 'speed' by switching to the dipper?

Answer if you feel like it. My method won't be changed, but I DO wonder, sometimes...
CM

[corvette8n]

My bottom pour and Lee moulds seem to make better filled out butllets if I run the pot and mould hot, they are frosted but fill out fine.
The gun doesnt know how they look and I sure the paper targer or deer don't care either.

[44man]

Montana, NO, it does not matter what the boolits look like. Frosted a little, shiny or in between. What matters is filled out boolits and weights within a small variation.
I get much better boolits by ladle casting then I can with BP.
How in the world do you get frosted boolits from a BP unless you get to 900*? Maybe .22 boolits at lightning speed.

[montana_charlie]

corvette8N,
Your mention of 'deer' leads me to think we (you and I) are speaking primarily about rifle applications. That's good, because rifle fodder has less leeway (IMO) for imperfection than does ammo for revolvers and auto pistols.

But, your reply has caused the 'troll' in me to resurface.
My troll is going to ask you some questions, but (since you know a troll is asking) you may prefer not to answer.

Questions:
- What do you flux with?
- What do you lube a mould with?
- What do you use for a 'sprue knocker'?

Assuming you are not anxious to answer because you know 'what' is asking, I'll go on for a bit to reveal the 'trap' I am setting for you.

Let's say you said 'beeswax' for flux; 'beeswax' for mould lube; and 'hardwood stick' for sprue knocker.

For generations, the men who write the casting 'bibles' have been saying the three things mentioned above are the best choices for those jobs. And, I think they are still making the same recommendations.

In spite of the fact that fluxing can be done with materials which are cheaper, cleaner, more convenient, or more effective...a huge percentage of casters still flux with wax because it's 'in the bible'.

Touching hot screws and alignment pins on a mould, with any kind of wax, immediately produces smoke. I don't know of anybody who believes that 'burnt lubricant' is still able to lubricate anything. As a matter of fact, the carbon residue from the burning has to be removed (periodically) or the mould surfaces can no longer touch each other.
But tell a 'bible reader' that beeswax is bad for mould lube and you have an argument.

We all know there are gentler ways to open a sprue plate than whacking it with a stick, but many will ignore 'gloved hand' suggestions. After all, gloves are never mentioned in the various 'bibles'...


Now, page down to that chapter and verse where it says, "When your bullets show signs of frost, they are too hot and you should reduce your temperature."

How can it be that (many) casters will abide religiously by the first three...but feel perfectly justified in disobeying the fourth?

To take that to another plane of conciousness...the first three are concerned with establishing a casting environment which is conducive to proper maintenance of your equipment (if you'll consider molten alloy as 'equipment' for just a moment).

While the fourth is strictly related to bullet quality.

Since 'high quality' is the Pearly Gates to most casters, what makes it so easy to disregard one of the few admonitions in the bible which relates directly to that goal?

I can only assume that the need for speed outweighs the desire for biblical perfection, and that the habitual froster feels that regular 'confession' (on forums such as this) will keep that sin from causing his damnation.

I can only pray that he will eventually see the light...reflected in a cast bullet of heavenly appearance that mirrors the soul of his mould.

CM

[EMC45]

Wow! I use Beewax for flux, and for lubing the mold, use a hardwood sprue knocker and run my pot hot as I can and get frosted bullets. Please don't hate me Montana Charlie!:-D

[rockrat]

Been using a BP for about 35 years without any problems. Seems like different moulds need a bit different technique. Worst mould was one of the Lee 45's for the spire point 500+ grain boolit. Finally figured it out, by accident. Usually cast with sprue plate against the spout or within 1/4 inch. This boolit likes it about 1/2" below spout. Go figure

[montana_charlie]

Wow! I use Beewax for flux, and for lubing the mold, use a hardwood sprue knocker
That shows you read the bible...

and run my pot hot as I can and get frosted bullets. Please don't hate me Montana Charlie!
We are told to forgive the sinner...

[crowbeaner]

Due to some unnamed individual breaking off a drill bit TWICE in the pour spout trying to enlarge the hole, I had to pour all the boolits I cast this past summer. My Lee moulds actually fill out better when I use the ladle. It has to do with the moulds not having vent lines off the grooves in the cavity, and there are a lot of lines in a coffee can shaped wadcutter. I even hand poured a 3# can full of 12 gauge slugs. When that mould is hot and the lead is the right temp I can sling about 3 per minute if I work like Igor. They look purty, and they shoot fine in the 1100. BIG boolits and tiny ones are best poured with the dipper. My 457122 Lyman HAS to be ladled to get boolits with no voids or wrinkles. JMHO. CB.

[38 Super Auto]

I use a Lee 4 20 pot and have never had chronic quality problems casting eight pistol molds from .356 to .452 and .311 rifle bullets. I use Lee and Lyman molds. I keep my molds clean and lubed. Once they are up to temp, they cast good bullets. Frosted bullets are not a defect. I cast with some antimony in the alloy, so I never get mirror shiny bullets.

I don't cast for perfection, although my boolits do look very fine. A minor cosmetic flaw does dot affect my ability to knock over a steel plate or hit a bowling pin. It's a different story if I am casting rifle bullets for accuracy work.

Nope, I wouldn't trade my Lee Pro 4 20 for a truckload of Mag dippers. I would, however entertain a trade for a Magma Engineering bullet master mark 7 :)

[Cherokee]

I quit pouring bullets when Lee came out with the 10# BP pot. Never regretted the change and don't have a probelm casting good bullets I now have 3 20# pots that keep me in ammo and from having to change alloys in a pot.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have been using Lee 4-20 pots for almost 16 years. I still have the 1st one but it has been relegated to premelting ingots and has a chunk of angle iron under to the spout leading to the casting 4-20 residing 24" lower on another shelf.

When I am wearing my leather jock, wellington boots and beanie with the left threaded prop I can really pump some lead! I employ an assistant to feed the premelter, clean up the sprue pile, replenish fresh and cool water soaked sponges to the cool down plate, keep my beer mug full, reapply Bullshop Sprue Plate Lube and mop my brow.

I confess to never having even tried to ladle pour. I keep the alloy hot, use straight wheel weights, Lee six bangers and drink only Tecate beer.

I could care less what the surface sheen is on my boolits. Once the alloy and the mold is up to temperature I am casting until I have enuf boolits. After removal from the cooling water bucket and drying on a steel tray lined with towels I examine the goods. Improperly filled out, deformed and others with obvious defects get tossed immediatly.

If I am going to use the boolit for a competition I will weigh them using a digital scale and put 'em into small containers of similar weights. If a boolit for competition varies above or below by 2 grains or more I relegate it to practice.

My only problem recently is getting good lead cheap!

[44man]

Crash, you have stepped off the deep end with the propeller beanie! Have you seen the fun bass poked at me for my hat? [smilie=w:Of course we ALL want to see a picture! :mrgreen:

[Ed Barrett]

It all goes back to "if it works for you, it's just great". This is more of an art than a science. If we all did everything the same way what would we talk about (type about) here? I have a good friend who does about half the things casting bullets different than me. His bullets are about the same quality as mine. I wouldn't change a thing about the way I cast bullets and niether would he. I think the prop on his beany is left handed though. <G>

[chevyiron420]

thanks for the helpfull comments folks. i learn something every time i come here, even if its not what im looking for at the moment.
i dont have a problem making good boolits with the b.p. if im useing my iron molds, mostly pistol, but a few rifle. but as soon as i start using a lee mold, mostly rifles, i get bubbles in one side of the boolit and in the bases. sometimes these tiny bubbles will gang up together and make a big one causing part of a driving band to be missing. working with the pour rate helps some. working with temp of the aloy and mold helps some, also the distance from the mold to the spout. however not enough difference to get an excepable amount of keepers. also if i put the mold up against the spout of the pot it makes a big difference but i cant seem to master doing it like that. my molds have been well preped and are clean. some work better with smoke, some without, some have been lapped, some not. they all do the same thing from 30 cal. up to 45\70 with the larger the mold, the worse it gets. if i use the ladle it goes away!-phil:castmine: