44 WCF black powder factory loads

[Char-Gar]

Recently I was given about 100 rounds of very old factory ammo for the 44 WCF (44-40). Some were UMC but most were WRA head stamped. For the sake of knowledge, I broke on of each down and here is what I found;

WRA 44 WCF

40 grains of black powder
195 grain bullet that had two shallow round bottom lube grooves and the case was rounded
The lube was a yellow green sticky stuff that was still in good shape.
The bullet measured .427 on the top two bands and .429 on the bottom driving band
The alloy was 8 BHN in hardness.

UMC 44 CFW

35 grains of black powder
194 grain bullet identical in appearance to the above
The lube had dried to a hard white chalk
The bullet measured .425 on the top two bands and .427 on the bottom driving band
The alloy was 13.5 BHN

Anyway, I thought I would pass this on to anybody who find this stuff interesting.

[waksupi]

That is interesting. So the WRA was probably better suited to fit more firearms?

[w30wcf]

Char-Gar,
Nice find on that historic ammunition.:smile: Thank you for the information. I also have had the opportunity to dissect some vintage W.R.A. CO .44 W.C.F. & U.M.C. .44-40 b.p. ammunition. I found that after removing the bullet and powder from the case, there was another 2-3 grs still adhereing to the case walls and in the base...even after scrapping. I found that out by weighing the cases then cleaning them with a 50/50 white vinegar / water solution and after they were dry weighing them again.

Average powder compression was .20".

I believe that the cartridges you were given were reloads (?) as the factories only used pure lead bullets according to their catalogs.

Bullets from original cartridges I dissected measured .423 / .424 (.424" was the original diameter) and were 4.2 bhn and thus would bump up to fit the variance in barrel dimensions back in the day. They had shallow square bottomed lube grooves as this pic of original factory bullets show.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/4445swagedbulletsJPG.jpg

Early on, UMC loaded their .44-40 cartridges with 217 gr bullets but then switched to the same 200 gr. bullets used in the .44 W.C.F. in the early 1900's.


w30wcf

[w30wcf]

That is interesting. So the WRA was probably better suited to fit more firearms?

Waksupi,
Actually the cartridges were interchangeable. Winchester introduced the .44 W.C.F with its model of 1873. UMC / Marlin copied that cartridge and named it the .44-40. By the mid 1940's Winchester dropped the .44 W.C.F moniker and adopted the .44-40 designation.

w30wcf

[bedbugbilly]

Char Gar - very interesting post!

I'm curious about two things . .

First . . . could you tell the granulation of the powder? (3F?)

Second . . . I compress my BP loads (38 Colt Long, 38 Spl and 357) when seating the lead bullet. My powder level is about a 1/10" to 1/8" below the casing mouth before seating and compressing. (Example - I use a 38 Long casing to measure for 38 Spl. cartridge and a 38 Spl. casing to measure for a 357 cartridge). I'm using 3F Goex. (and I realize the 44/40 is a "different" cartridge).

Anyway, what I have found when first setting up to load my BP cartridges, is after seating and compressing the load . . when I pulled the slug to check and make sure I was getting good compression, etc. - that the powder was adequately compressed but when I inverted the casing, the powder load does not "pour" out - it's compressed and I have to basically "scratch it out using a small wood sharpened dowel. (This was just during my initial checking of compression etc.)

So . . . I'm curious . . . what was the powder charge like in the cartridges you pulled? Compressed and hard? or compressed but still able to be shaken out?

BTW . . . loading my cartridges with the compression I'm ending up with all go bang with a standard small pistol primer.

Thanks!

[Outpost75]

.....I also have had the opportunity to dissect some vintage W.R.A. CO .44 W.C.F. & U.M.C. .44-40 b.p. ammunition.....I found that out by weighing the cases then cleaning them with a 50/50 white vinegar / water solution and after they were dry weighing them again......I believe that the cartridges you were given were reloads (?) as the factories only used pure lead bullets according to their catalogs. Bullets from original cartridges I dissected measured .423 / .424 (.424" was the original diameter) and were 4.2 bhn and thus would bump up to fit the variance in barrel dimensions back in the day. They had shallow square bottomed lube grooves as this pic of original factory bullets show.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/4445swagedbulletsJPG.jpg

Early on, UMC loaded their .44-40 cartridges with 217 gr bullets but then switched to the same 200 gr. bullets used in the .44 W.C.F. in the early 1900's. w30wcf

John, were any of the original bullets heeled or with rebated bands and enlarged noses to your knowledge? Accurate 43-200Q resembles a period Gevelot (French) drawing, though I know they used heeled bullets in their 11mm ordnance revolvers pre-1900 and may have simply loaded .44-40s with a suitable bullet they already had on hand. Did you ever try 43-200Q with black? If you ran out of samples I could easily cast you more, and in softer alloy if you would prefer.

[Char-Gar]

The powder charges were compressed and I also weighted the charged cases, cleaned them and weighted again to get the powder charge weight. The powder was the dickens to get out, as it was a hard cake alost welded to the sides of the care. I used a scribe to pick it out bit by bit. I have no idea what grade it was.

I do not believe these to be old reloads, but one can never count that out.

Here are pic of the bullets with the UMC on the left nd the WRA on the right. While the bullets are similar they are not the same with the Winchester having wider driving bands on the top and more narrow on the bottom.

I measured the hardness with a SAECO tester and converted to Bhn.

I do note the headstamps were WRA 44 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) and UMC 44 CFW, the latter which I took to mean "Center Fire Winchester".

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks Char Gar . . . that's pretty much what I thought the powder would look/act like. On my BP loadings, even though I'm using 3F . . . once compressed by the seating of the bullet and then pulling the slug, the powder pretty much is just like you described. I have feeling that if the primers on your cartridges went off, they'd go bang just fine. Always interesting to learn about old cartridges, etc. - thanks for sharing this with everybody - interesting stuff.

[w30wcf]

John, were any of the original bullets heeled or with rebated bands and enlarged noses to your knowledge? Accurate 43-200Q resembles a period Gevelot (French) drawing, though I know they used heeled bullets in their 11mm ordnance revolvers pre-1900 and may have simply loaded .44-40s with a suitable bullet they already had on hand. Did you ever try 43-200Q with black? If you ran out of samples I could easily cast you more, and in softer alloy if you would prefer.

Ed,
None of the lead bullets I have pulled from a number of .44 W.C.F. & .44-40 cartridges were of a heeled design. Mfgr's were WRA, UMC, REM-UMC, PETERS, USC, Dominion. Perhaps some foreign mfgr's might have.

I have not tried the 43-200Q with black. The smaller lube capacity would likely make it somewhat difficult to fire very many shots before the barrel fouled out. Perhaps it would work aok with Swiss & or Olde E. B.P. substitutes should work well with it though.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Char-Gar,
Thank you for the update and pic. The factory bullets were swaged and had vertical lines in the grooves from the tooling used to rotate the bullets while forming the lube groove under pressure. They also had a slight cup base. I did a little further research to see if I could find any reference to harder bullets than pure lead.....but could find none.


Billy,
B.P. granulation in the .44 W.C.F. & .44-40 b.p. cartridges I dissected were like FFG once I removed the fines from the powder being compressed.

Being a student of some of the early b.p. cartridges, I have had the opportunity to also procure and dissect these cartridges:
.22 L.R. / .25-20 / .32 LC / .38 Special / .44 Henry / .44 Special / .45 Colt / .45-70

The powder used in the .38 Special was 3F - 21.5 grs. by weight.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/38SpecialBlackPOwderjpg-1.jpg

Notice that the primer was struck on some of those cartridges but the mercuric priming had long since died.
I pulled the bullets with an impact puller, removed the powder for reuse, then removed the primers and discarded them.
The brass was cleaned, then annealed, new Rem 1 1/2 primers inserted, the powder replaced, and bullets reseated after they were relubed.

They worked just like they would have back in the early 1900's when they were made over 100 years ago.... :smile:

w30wcf

[44man]

Don't compress powder with the boolit. Use a compression die instead. Those soft boolits can't take the push.

[bedbugbilly]

44man - I can't speak for other calibers but in 38 Colt Short, Long, 38 Spl and 357 I have no problems at all in compressing the powder by seating the cast bullet and I get no deforming of the slug at all nor any casing issues. In fact, when I first started reloading cartridges with BP, most of the advice I got on this site was to just use the bullet to compress at the time it was seated for 38s and it has worked out well for me. I use a lead slug cast out of a Lyman 358-311 mold for 38 spl and 357 and a lead slug out of a Lyman 358-242 (120 gr) for the Colt Short & Long. I finger lube them with my normal homemade BP lube that I've been using for 50 years (I primarily shot BP revolvers, rifles, smooth bores and even full size Civil War cannons up until a few years ago) and out of my New Vaquero, have no fouling issues either in the barrel or in terms of the cylinder pin. The most rounds I've fired at one time when shooting is around 100 rounds but I was still good to go if I had had more with me.

I would imagine it all depends on the cartridge being loaded in terms of the volume of the casing or the design of the casing - a 32/20 or a 44/40 with the bottleneck design that has thinner brass might be a whole different story and need a compression die? I can't speak from experience on those nor on larger rifle calibers which require a drop tube and possibly a compression die.

I have a 357 Handi Rifle that I'm playing with - both smokeless and BP - and it seems to work well with the BP. In that, I'm primarily sticking to 357 casings and the heavier 158 - 160 gr. bullet out of the Lyman 358-311. At this time, I'm using Goex 3F as I have a supply of it due to my other BP shooting. I also have 2F which I'm going to give a try and see what the differences are in terms of performance.

At some point, I want to get both a 32/20 and a 44/40 just because of the history of those two cartridges. I've enjoyed this thread as it has a lot of interesting information in it and the photos are great! When the time comes that I move on to the 32/20 and 44/40 though, I'm sure both of those cartridges loaded in BP will be a new learning experience.

[smokeywolf]

bedbugbilly, would you be amenable to sharing your recipe for your BP lube with us?

[waksupi]

Waksupi,
Actually the cartridges were interchangeable. Winchester introduced the .44 W.C.F with its model of 1873. UMC / Marlin copied that cartridge and named it the .44-40. By the mid 1940's Winchester dropped the .44 W.C.F moniker and adopted the .44-40 designation.

w30wcf

I was referring more about the diameters.

[prs]

Excellent find! A most interesting discussion for us sooty folk.

We were reading about John Boy and handloading .22 just recently and now this. I think I recall Jack dissecting modern .22LR and making BP loads. Where else can you get this kind of ejumunkashum.

prs

[bedbugbilly]

smokywolf - it's really nothing that great. For years, I've taken a 1# can of Crisco - melted it and then melted the wax from one toilet ring - mixed together and then poured in empty musket cap tins to use. BUT - I'm talking the old style toilet rings not the new ones which I believe are more of a "scrap wax" now?

My family had a lumberyard/hardware and when we sold it a number of years ago, I bought what old style toilet bowl wax rings we had in stock. I used my last one up the last time I mixed a batch up. I've used that for years for the bases of my minie balls for rifled musket when I shot NSSA as well as soaking patch material in it for round ball shooting. I do leatherwork - make holsters, gun-belts, etc. as a hobby so I have plenty of leather scraps. I use a .375 (3/8" punch and punch out leather wads - usually out of approx. 1/8" thick leather - melt the lube and soak them in it then pat dry with paper towel. They work great for over the powder wads/under ball for my .36 caliber C & B Navies.

The beeswax in the old rings kept the mixture stiff enough for all but the most hot/humid weather. This mix seems to keep the fouling soft and I can shoot a number of cylinders out of my C & B Navies without any cylinder bind on the pin. I lube the pin with the same mixture before shooting and can easily get 10 to 12 cylinders or more out of it without a problem.

This lube seems to work well on my BP cartridges but it's messy finger lubing the bullet grooves. I don't have a lubesizer so do it the "old fashioned way". I have a separate set of dies to load the BP cartridges as it can gum up a seating die pretty quick if you aren't careful. We all know how soft a toilet bowl ring is as it has to be in order to seal when you seat a toilet. My next attempt at mixing lube (since I no longer have any of the old rings) will be to use the Crisco and beeswax - see how stiff it is and then if it needs to be softer, try adding a little oil of some type = possibly virgin olive oil or mineral oil.

I'm hoping that the new mix will work as well as what I've been using as far as keeping fouling soft and to a minimum. It's kind of a trade off as I see it. If I make a "stiffer" lube, the fouling may not be kept under control as well - too soft and it's messy. I'd kind of like to hit a "happy medium" if I can. I haven't tried pan lubing yet - thinking of trying that and then running the boolits though a .358 Lee sizer to see how well the lube stays in the lube grooves. Not really a "science" to it but I'm having fun and always learning - and that's what it's all about!

So far, I've had no problems with lube saturating into the compressed powder load. I make sure that the base of the boolit is clean - I just swipe it over a paper towel before seating - the neck tension seems to keep it from migrating. I know some use a wad over powder and under boolit - I've had such good luck with just compressing the load with the boolit and even though it's only a thickness of a wad of powder you'd be loosing, I'd rather have as much BP in there as I can.

I'm "dipping" my BP powder instead of weighing each charge but I have checked my charges with a digital scale and I seem to be pretty consistent with the load weight by dipping (volume). My first tempts at BP cartridge loading was with the 38 spl. and I carefully weighed out each charge and had enough to get compression but not a lot. Most of my hits on the target were low out of my New Vaquero. As soon as I switched to dipping (used a 38 Colt Long case for the 38 spl) and started getting a full charge in that could still be compressed, my hits raised up in terms of POI to POA. I learned real quick it needed the extra "oomph" that a few grains more gave to it.

My next playing around will be with the 38 Colt Short - this cartridge was developed originally to use in the converted 1851/61 Navies such as the Richards and Mason conversions. Not a lot of powder in a 38 Colt Short so it will be interesting to see just what it will do - I'll probably shoot those out of my Uberti Bisley.

Sorry - didn't want to "hi jack" this thread but thought I'd share my experiences. I'd love to hear more about the 44/40 if somebody is loading that with the Holy Black.

[w30wcf]

"I'd love to hear more about the 44/40 if somebody is loading that with the Holy Black."
Billy,
Here is an informative thread (my handle there is w44wcf)
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40683.0.html

w30wcf

[hydraulic]

"I'd love to hear more about the 44/40 if somebody is loading that with the Holy Black."
Billy,
Here is an informative thread (my handle there is w44wcf)
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40683.0.html

w30wcf
I load 30 grains of 2f in my Colt SAA .38-40 made in 1896. I use a Lyman #6 tong tool both for loading the cartridges and for casting the bullet. My lube is much the same as mentioned above; bees wax 50%, Crisco 40%, Canola 10%. No wad, powder compressed by the bullet.

[44man]

Yes, depends on how much compression and brass. I am used to the larger cases like the 45-70.
BP is a strange animal. The dipper is better. I made a lot of tests in my ML's and rifle by weighing the charges and found groups got worse so I just use the measure now.

[Dale53]

A number of years ago I was very heavy into Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Shooting. I was introduced to the finer aspects by a good friend who was a champion shooter. He used home made "Emmert's" lube (the aforementioned 50% Pure Natural Beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil). I used that for several years. Later, I modified it for better shelf life, to 50% Beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Anhydrous Lanolin. It works well through a lube/sizer and also works well for smokeless lube (much like SPG in that regard).

Some of the BPCR matches had side matches for fixed sighted single action revolvers loaded with cast bullets and black powder. I ran a series of accuracy tests with my Vaquero and Bisley Vaquero and learned that the above lube worked very well. My .45 Colt Rugers used .452" bullets cast of 30/1 lead/tin and would shoot really well. I could get about 70 shots before the cylinder started to bind from fouling. A quick five minute cleaning job with a good black powder solvent and I was good for another 70 shots (this can vary from revolver to revolver). It helps to use a good cylinder pin lube, also (STP is good and the Red synthetic grease works even better).

I ran my pistol rounds through my Dillon 550B (not necessarily recommended with black powder) and used a powder load that was compressed 1/16" when seating the bullet. Any further compression can distort the soft bullet which can lead to all sorts of problems (leading, inaccuracy, etc.). I shot thousands of those loads with my choice of bullet - the Lyman 452664 Cowboy Bullet. This bullet has a relatively large square bottomed lube groove that holds an adequate amount of the BP lube for excellent results. You can vary the velocity and recoil by your choice of powder brand and granulation. If you want to hunt with a black powder load, Swiss 3F will give you the most velocity (over 900 fps) and GOEX 2F will give you the least velocity. Elephant is a good bit slower but my understanding is that it is no longer available.

Using Swiss 3f gave me a new understanding of the real power of the Black Powder .45 Colt. Our Indian War Soldiers were NOT underpowered with their 1873 Colt Single Actions. They would reportedly shoot through a HORSE at 100 yards. That is serious power!

FWIW
Dale53

[Thomas Traddles]

w30wcf, do you know what kind of velocities are achieved with the 21.5g of BP in the 38 special?


Char-Gar,
Thank you for the update and pic. The factory bullets were swaged and had vertical lines in the grooves from the tooling used to rotate the bullets while forming the lube groove under pressure. They also had a slight cup base. I did a little further research to see if I could find any reference to harder bullets than pure lead.....but could find none.


Billy,
B.P. granulation in the .44 W.C.F. & .44-40 b.p. cartridges I dissected were like FFG once I removed the fines from the powder being compressed.

Being a student of some of the early b.p. cartridges, I have had the opportunity to also procure and dissect these cartridges:
.22 L.R. / .25-20 / .32 LC / .38 Special / .44 Henry / .44 Special / .45 Colt / .45-70

The powder used in the .38 Special was 3F - 21.5 grs. by weight.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/38SpecialBlackPOwderjpg-1.jpg

Notice that the primer was struck on some of those cartridges but the mercuric priming had long since died.
I pulled the bullets with an impact puller, removed the powder for reuse, then removed the primers and discarded them.
The brass was cleaned, then annealed, new Rem 1 1/2 primers inserted, the powder replaced, and bullets reseated after they were relubed.

They worked just like they would have back in the early 1900's when they were made over 100 years ago.... :smile:

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Thomas,
Rem-Umc catalogs back then showed 960 f.p.s. A check of the original reprimed ammunition in my 6 1/2" Ruger turned up 967 f.p.s.. Interestingly, there was no loss of power in the past 100 years or so.:D

In the Marlin levergun, velocity was 1,218 f.p.s. average.

.38 b.p. bullets...
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/38Specialbpbullets1.jpg

w30wcf

[Thomas Traddles]

w30wcf, Thank you for that information. I find that to be very interesting. I'm afraid to hijack the thread here with a few more questions, so I hope folks forgive me.

Do standard factory loads meet this velocity? Why have +p and FBI loads? Why have ammo companies and reloading manuals downloaded the cartridge? Finally, while I have not shot BP in some time, I wonder if the recoil from BP loads of 21.5 grains of black powder is less sharp than say the +P loadings in smokeless cartridges? Can you comment on this?


Again, my apologies for the hijack.

T

[w30wcf]

Thomas,
The standard .38 Special 158 gr loading is cataloged at 755 f.p.s. The current +P 158 is 890 fps. Earlier +P loads were in the 900-over 1,000 f.p.s. range. The reason for downloading could possibly be because of a switch to faster burning powders.

Regarding the recoil between the +P and b.p. loadings I do not have any actual experience but based on the velocities I would think they should be pretty similar.

w30wcf

[44man]

Swiss is the best, no doubt at all. I get 1102 fps from my Old Army with 41 gr of Swiss FFFG and it puts deer on the ground fast. I remove the cylinder to load with a tool I made that seats the same distance with the same compression.
Lanolin really helps a BP lube, seems to absorb moisture to keep fouling softer.

[w30wcf]

"Swiss is the best."
+1
Olde Enysford is right up there too.

w30wcf