Marlin 336 XLR in .35 Remington

[Marlin Junky]

Does anyone out there know for sure what the rate of twist is on the Marlin 336 XLR in .35 Remington? Marlin's website shows they have a 12" twist. Did Marlin really go from a 16" twist to a 12" twist thinking they would sell more rifles?

What about the bore/groove dimensions? Is the rifling hammer forged or cut?

MJ

[Buckshot]

..............When my buddy and I decided to put together a couple small ring Mausers in 35 Rem, we decided on a 16" twist. When we were ordering the barrels the guy asked if they were for Whelens. We said no, 35 Rem and he asked us why we wanted such a slow twist. Guess some people think a 16" twist is wrong?

...................Buckshot

[Frank46]

Latest edition of the new midway catalog do show 35 cal bbls in both 1x12 and 1x14" twist. And did their prices go up. Methinks they just might be taking advantage of everyone and passing all increases directly to the customer. Sure would like to see their bottom line for 2007. Frank

[Marlin Junky]

Buckshot,

I have been trying to acquire a .35 with a 16" twist for a couple months now and I'm on the verge of either building one based on a Mauser action or buying an old 336 and (gasp!) drilling and tapping it for a scope mount.

I bought a .358 Ruger Hawkeye with a 12" twist last summer and I haven't been happy with it because the accuracy falls apart before I hit decent .35 Remington ballistics (I like to shoot relatively soft boolits). I was all excited about a Ruger M77 MKII in .350 Magnum and almost bought one until I found out they have 12" twists. Now I'm 99% sure even Marlin uses a 12" twist. The closest thing I have to a 16" twist .35 that wears a scope is my H-R in .35 Whelen and that thing is no day at the beach with its .391" neck and .350+" long ball seat. That's .350+" before we even get to the leade angle.

MJ

[35remington]

Odd.

My Microgroove .35 Marlins are 1-16. I'm sure about that. My friend Dave has the Ruger .350 Remington, and I asked him tonight. He responded that it was 1-16. I can ask him again, but Dave usually gets that information right.

On edit: I looked here.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdSpecsView?model=17858

It's 1-14. My Bullberry TC barrel in .35 Remington is 1-14. It will shoot the RCBS at 2000 fps just fine. Out of a 15.5" barrel with brake.

[Marlin Junky]

My friend Dave has the Ruger .350 Remington, and I asked him tonight. He responded that it was 1-16. I can ask him again, but Dave usually gets that information right.

Dave's .350 is probably not an M77 MKII.

MJ

[35remington]

It is. He was mistaken; see previous. The XLR in .35 is 1-12. I dunno if I'd give up on it just yet.

What's wrong with the standard rifle, or used?

[Marlin Junky]

It is. He was mistaken; see previous. The XLR in .35 is 1-12. I dunno if I'd give up on it just yet.

What's wrong with the standard rifle, or used?

35remington,

Upon noticing (a few days ago) that Ruger published a 14" twist for their blued M77 MKII and a 12" twist for the stainless gun (on their website), I called Ruger and dicovered they made a typo. It was pretty obvious they weren't using two different twists for the .350 but unfortunately the 14" was the typo, not the 12". I would have bought the M77 MKII in a NY minute if it has a 14" twist, but the 12" twist on my .358 Hawkeye won't handle soft boolits as well as my 56 year old 336 in .35R so I'm not going to take the chance on the 12" twist .350.

Nothing wrong with used, I just can't find the right one. Heck I prefer used... new stuff is all geared toward pointy copper patched boolits.

MJ

P.S. How do you know the .35 XLR has a 12" twist? Have you measured one or are you looking at the Marlin website and trusting its validity 100%? BTW, I don't think drawing conclusions about a Ruger barrel based on experience with a quality barrel such as a Bullberry barrel is logical, even if the rates of twist were the same. Ruger M77 barrels just aren't that good.

[Buckshot]

...............Marlin Junky, check with The Montana Rifleman for a barrel. That's where out blanks came from and they're super. Had a local gunsmith taper turn, thread, chamber and fit them to our actions. The barrels slug .350"x.358".

................Buckshot

[Marlin Junky]

That's where out blanks came from and they're super.

Buckshot,

"out blanks"?

Thanks for the leade.
MJ

[35remington]

"Ruger M77 barrels just aren't that good."

Somebody forgot to tell Dave about this, I would suppose, and the rifle shoots very well anyway. Take a look at it this way - many have been hollering that .350's need faster than 1-16 to shoot the longer bullets. They finally did it. Can't make everyone happy, and Dave's .350 is two years old. What is ideal for jacketed bullets is something you perceive as undesirable.

FWIW, accuracy did deteriorate above 1800 fps, and that had nothing to do with twist and alloy and everything to do with the powder used, as well as a change in barrel condition due to the softer lead/pressures. We tried something slower and give it another shot. If 1-12 is the twist he's got, it shouldn't be, and wasn't, limiting with reasonably (WW's) soft bullets and reasonable velocities of up to 2100 fps. We haven't tried anything faster as his intent was to duplicate the .35 Remington as you do, for closer ranged shots in the trees with lead bullets that expand well. Mission accomplished.

It may be that the larger case capacity of the .350 will allow lower pressures at similar velocities to your .358, and I suspect but don't know for sure that this may be limiting you more than twist. Other calibers shoot relatively long, soft bullets at around 2000 fps in 1-12 twists just fine. The trouble for me is in maintaining bore condition, not twist. The soft alloy allows enough leading and deformation at some level of pressures, depending upon cartridge size, that the barrel condition changes after around 12-20 shots and accuracy goes downhill. For hunting this is of no consequence. For range use over a long string of shots I'd just harden the bullets and carry on. The .350 cartridge does seem to be a pretty good one with cast.

My Bullberry barrel doesn't have a particularly friendly cast bullet throat, so no advantage to a Bullberry barrel there. My comments had to do with the suitability of 1-14 twist and nothing else. The barrel shoots in spite of its limitations, but then that seems to be typical of my luck with .35's.

If you're mistrustful about what Marlin posts on their site, whistle up Tomray on the marlinowners board and he'll find out for you.

[Marlin Junky]

What I'm looking for is a .35 caliber repeater based on a short to intermediate action that will most likely produce a success (I'll define success later) so I'm trying to stay away from variables that when coupled together may produce a negative result. These variables include: too steep of a rifling pitch, shallow grooves and a poor finish... seems like my .358 Ruger possesses at least two of the three variables and it also doesn't feed SAECO 352 seated to the crimp groove well at all; i.e., the meplat bumps the breech face. I think the extractor is too loose on the case rim and it's not holding the round firmly enough. Therefore, I'm going to stay away from the Ruger M77 in .350.

I have noticed that there are a few Remington M700 short actions kicking around in .350 which have 22" barrels and 1 in 16" twists. This is definitely what I'm looking for but I haven't owned a Remington 700 since I was a kid and the criticism I remember about the .350's back in the 60's and early 70's revolved around the very short magazine box. Yeah, there was other criticism directed at the .350 back then but none that applies to my goals.

What I'm looking for ballistically is 2400 fps with RCBS 35-200FN cast soft (ACWW) and enough of a nice snug throat to handle boolits up to 260 grains. I also want to handle stuff like the SAECO 180's but don't need to set any speed records with them. All this and 1.5 MOA or better would be nice.

MJ

[35remington]

Then a custom barrel probably is the way to go. 2400 fps with ACWW's is enough of a tall order that nothing else will do. The extra 3-400 fps make things a lot more difficult.

From your second post on this thread, I got the idea that you wanted to duplicate .35 Remington velocities, which we did with accuracy. 2400 fps is a bit past that, so going by this new criteria I would tend to agree you may need more things in your favor.

I don't know for sure, so it may be a good project for us to try 2400 fps and see if and how fast accuracy goes downhill with the Ruger. I am pretty sure it will with wheelweights, as at that velocity everything has to be just right and it takes a lot of work to discover just what that is. At that point, though, the rifle starts acting like a full blown .350, which really isn't what we were after with lead. To each his own.

[Marlin Junky]

From your second post on this thread, I got the idea that you wanted to duplicate .35 Remington velocities, which we did with accuracy.

It's pretty easy to duplicate .35 Remington ballistics with my 56 year old Ballard rifled 336A in .35 Remington. :wink:

[Marlin Junky]

35remington,

Is Dave's gun stainless or blue?

Thanks,
MJ

[35remington]

Blue.

Nice compact gun. Same size as our .257 Roberts. We both have one of those.

[Larry Gibson]

What I'm looking for is a .35 caliber repeater based on a short to intermediate action that will most likely produce a success (I'll define success later) so I'm trying to stay away from variables that when coupled together may produce a negative result.............What I'm looking for ballistically is 2400 fps with RCBS 35-200FN cast soft (ACWW) and enough of a nice snug throat to handle boolits up to 260 grains. I also want to handle stuff like the SAECO 180's but don't need to set any speed records with them. All this and 1.5 MOA or better would be nice.MJ

Sounds like the requirements for a 35x57 on a intermediate M98 Mauser action. Barrels with 14 and 16" twists are readily available. Reamers (35 Whelen) and dies (shortened standard 35 Whelen dies) are also readily availabe. Cases are easily formed from '06 brass. Case capacity is perfect for the slower powders and 2400 fps with the 35-200-FN is easily obtained.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

Blue.

Nice compact gun. Same size as our .257 Roberts. We both have one of those.

Thanks 35remington,

I decided to buy the Ruger M77 .350 even though I just missed a Remington M700 (16" twsit!) for a few bucks more. The Ruger was NIB and the Remington was a used gun that may have needed a stock repair and I'm not sure the M700 came with scope mounts either.

I'm hoping the carbon steel barrel on the M77 will like my boolits better than my stainless Hawkeye in .358 Win. The extra powder space may help too.

Thanks for your input,
MJ

P.S. Oh yeah, and the bigger hole in the breech may feed SAECO 352 better!

[Marlin Junky]

Sounds like the requirements for a 35x57 on a intermediate M98 Mauser action. Barrels with 14 and 16" twists are readily available. Reamers (35 Whelen) and dies (shortened standard 35 Whelen dies) are also readily availabe. Cases are easily formed from '06 brass. Case capacity is perfect for the slower powders and 2400 fps with the 35-200-FN is easily obtained.

Larry Gibson

You could be right on Larry, but for $429.00US, I couldn't pass on the NIB M77.

MJ

P.S. Anyone have some .350 brass they'd like to trade for somethin'? :-D

[35remington]

That is a good deal for that rifle.

I particularly like the fact that the magnum belt prevents case shortening with lighter loads with cast, essentially allowing loads to alternate between light cast and full power without worrying about headspace issues.

The other thing I was surprised to see was the relationship between case capacity and OAL. I thought with the full power loads and the OAL possible to fit through the magazine there would be considerable powder compression. We found that with 250 grain jacketed that maximum allowable charges let the bullet sit right atop the powder charge, exactly even with the cannelure and within the maximum allowable length permitted by both the magazine and the throat. Compression of powder due to these alleged reasons was a non issue.

Given that, I would be hard pressed to think of a reason to prefer a .35 Whelen over this .350 RM unless it had to do with the longest, heaviest cast bullets that may protrude below the neck a little more with the .350 than the Whelen. It seems to shoot jacketed well, too, and Dave even found a load with the Hornady 180 SSP bullet that shot well, of all things. Seems like a .350 WSM with a belt. I don't know if you can prove inherent accuracy with an off the shelf bolt action rifle but all the indicators seem to be there.

You can find loads that won't shoot with cast due to breaking the "rules" but keep those "rules" as a guideline and most everything shot well. Including pistol bullets.

[Marlin Junky]

That is a good deal for that rifle.

I particularly like the fact that the magnum belt prevents case shortening with lighter loads with cast, essentially allowing loads to alternate between light cast and full power without worrying about headspace issues.

The other thing I was surprised to see was the relationship between case capacity and OAL. I thought with the full power loads and the OAL possible to fit through the magazine there would be considerable powder compression. We found that with 250 grain jacketed that maximum allowable charges let the bullet sit right atop the powder charge, exactly even with the cannelure and within the maximum allowable length permitted by both the magazine and the throat. Compression of powder due to these alleged reasons was a non issue..

35rem,

One word on both accounts: COOL! :-D

MJ