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View Full Version : Developing an AR/MSR subforum within the Factory Rifle forum



bruce drake
10-22-2014, 02:00 PM
It was recently posted by a new member of our forum that perhaps a sub-forum be created regarding shooting cast in ARs and other Modern Sporting Firearms.

I would like to second the idea and I'm willing to assist in moderating the posts on the sub-forum.

I reload and shoot cast in ARs as well as other semi-automatic firearms both in commercial and military surplus categories.

I currently have ARs rigged up in the following calibers: 223 Rem; 5.56 NATO; 300BLK; 7.62x39 and most recently 6.5 Grendel.

I own a custom M1 Garand chambered in 7x57 Mauser and I have a "Christmas Club Account" to eventually purchase both a Noreen Firearms 30-06 AR as well as a 308/7.62NATO AR10.

I've built a poll for people to vote yea/nay on the idea of a subforum for these Modern Sporting Rifles and the tips and tricks in getting them to shoot accurately with cast lead boolits.

minmax
10-22-2014, 03:11 PM
Thanks Bruce!

bruce drake
10-22-2014, 03:15 PM
No problems, Glad to assist a new member.

garym1a2
10-22-2014, 03:19 PM
You need one in 5.45x39.



I currently have ARs rigged up in the following calibers: 223 Rem; 5.56 NATO; 300BLK; 7.62x39 and most recently 6.5 Grendel.

.

bruce drake
10-22-2014, 03:37 PM
I may get one eventually but its a odd caliber that will require a custom cut 22 caliber boolit mold. but before I go that route I was thinking of a 25-223 or a 6mmRAT (6mm Grendel) since I already have several 25 caliber molds and I like that caliber.

Sounds like you may own one so maybe you could build a thread on developing an effective cast load for that cartridge.

Bruce

USAFrox
10-22-2014, 03:38 PM
How do you like your Grendel? I've been toying with the idea of a Grendel for a while. They sure are impressive as heck on paper, ballistically.

bruce drake
10-22-2014, 04:02 PM
Just about finished building it. I also saw the reports about it being a good cartridge based off its ballistics. I own a 260 Rem and a 6.5 Creedmoor already so this will be my smallest cartridge for this caliber of bullet. I hope to eventually compile a good thread for this cartridge using 100, 130 and 140gr cast lead bullets and the resulting loads for an AR.

nekshot
10-22-2014, 04:55 PM
I think that would be good because a whole new crowd of folk are getting into guns and I personally welcome new gun ownership even though I prefer traditional hardware. My son thinks I should broaden my horizon and maybe I will.

xacex
10-22-2014, 05:37 PM
I would not mind a modern sporting rifle section. BTW, your going to love that Grendel. I am kinda regretting I did not go with a 260 barrel for the latest DPMS style AR-308 rifle that I put together. I am spoiled by 6.5mm now.

JSnover
10-22-2014, 06:51 PM
Maybe I'm splitting hairs but are the rifles mentioned in this thread so different from their service rifle counterparts that they need to be called 'modern sporting rifles'? In other words, do they differ enough to break them out of the Military Rifle forum?

garym1a2
10-22-2014, 06:56 PM
I think 5.45 will be awefull for cast bullets. I just brought a lot of 7n6 instead when I built mine. My 300 blackout is good on cast, but I think 7.62x40WT would be the best on cast.
P.S; I don't like the term "Modern sporting Rifle" My Ar's are better military rifles than the military M4s and M16A4. And I don't want to pretend its not.


I may get one eventually but its a odd caliber that will require a custom cut 22 caliber boolit mold. but before I go that route I was thinking of a 25-223 or a 6mmRAT (6mm Grendel) since I already have several 25 caliber molds and I like that caliber.

Sounds like you may own one so maybe you could build a thread on developing an effective cast load for that cartridge.

Bruce

bruce drake
10-22-2014, 07:04 PM
My ARs superficially match my military issue ARs but the sights (1/4" clicks) and triggers (single-stage) are radically different and the barrels are all free-floated under the handgrips and are much thicker in diameter than military issue. In this case, its appearances are deceiving.

A stock military AR is rated for 3-4 MOA while my rifles are consistent 1MOA rifle with jacketed bullets. I'd rather go to war with one of my ARs despite them only being semi-auto than the rifles I used to be issued.

And my 7x57 Garand...;) let's just say it wasn't all built at the Winchester plant in 1944 ;) and it sports a polymer rifle stock and not a bit of wood on it...

Bruce

bruce drake
10-22-2014, 07:13 PM
The 7.62x40 might give you more room in the boiler for powder but before I bought one of them, I would recut a 300BLK or 7.62x40 chamber to 7.62x43 and make a 30 TCU cartridge. Nearly the entire 5.56 case but trimmed back 2mm; the neck opened up and with the shoulder that isn't set back to allow for more powder. Imagine a 110gr bullet rolling out of a 16" or 20" barrel with almost 50% more powder than the 300BLK cartridges. Yeah, I've been thinking about that wildcat for a while...

Bruce

dragon813gt
10-22-2014, 07:25 PM
Maybe I'm splitting hairs but are the rifles mentioned in this thread so different from their service rifle counterparts that they need to be called 'modern sporting rifles'? In other words, do they differ enough to break them out of the Military Rifle forum?

This was my thought. But then you have some people that get upset when you post about ARs in the military rifle forum. I'm usually against more forums. But this one would be a good idea. It's going to have a lot of traffic so it won't be one that's created and goes stagnant almost immediately.

Love Life
10-22-2014, 07:54 PM
Ya'll think you can help me get cast working in my Omen?

Jupiter7
10-22-2014, 10:16 PM
Ya'll think you can help me get cast working in my Omen?
Ummm.... Jealous. Which model did you go with?

bruce drake
10-22-2014, 10:25 PM
Had to look up what an Omen was but sure! why not! I've committed hari-kari before by dealing with an T99 Arisaka's chromed polygonal bore to get it to shoot cast well (use .316 boolits in a .312 bore to keep them from skidding down bore). Have you started a thread in Factory Rifles yet to detail your issues with your Omen? (I don't think the AR/MSR sub-forum been agreed to yet)

Bruce

Bzcraig
10-22-2014, 10:40 PM
Hey Bruce, how ya healing up?

bruce drake
10-22-2014, 10:47 PM
I'm moving! I'm limited to 10lb of lifting but I'm about 90% better than I was before they replaced the disk! I've got a lot of downtime right now so I'm being a Forumwhore on this forum and a couple of others!!! :) Just don't try to chat with me after shortly I've taken my Percocets or Flexerils every 8hours! :) I have no control on what I might type during those times LOL!!!! I've promised myself to not provide loading data at any time during those "funny times"....

Bruce

alamogunr
10-22-2014, 10:49 PM
I voted "nay" but could change if the additional forum added something that is not available on existing AR forums. I think it would just be a burden here if it turned into a platform for hanging as much "stuff" as possible on an AR. This is still "Cast Boolits".

I've already noticed that the Yea's outnumber the Nay's by a large margin, so I don't expect the my opinion will carry much weight.

Bzcraig
10-22-2014, 11:53 PM
I'm moving! I'm limited to 10lb of lifting but I'm about 90% better than I was before they replaced the disk! I've got a lot of downtime right now so I'm being a Forumwhore on this forum and a couple of others!!! Just don't try to chat with me after shortly I've taken my Percocets or Flexerils every 8hours! :) I have no control on what I might type during those times LOL!!!! I've promised myself to not provide loading data at any time during those "funny times"....

Bruce

That is great news, the 90% part, I mean! All I have to do is stay up too late and I act as goofy as most on drugs! :bigsmyl2:

Artful
10-23-2014, 12:35 AM
People who have AR's seem to be sprinkling their posts over multiple headings so I'd say yes - even to the point of having the Military Rifle change to Old Skool Military Pre Vietnam
and Modern Military Post Vietnam for the AR's, AUG's and what have you.

bruce drake
10-23-2014, 12:38 AM
John,

I highly doubt the mallninjas over on AR15.com and other forums like that will ever discuss the sweet science of casting bullets and getting them to work in gas rifles. Most of them are still shooting 55gr and 62gr FMJ and looking for the next surplus deal on Guatemalan 5.56 overruns to blast at steel plates 10 yards away from them...

wlc
10-23-2014, 03:06 AM
John,

I highly doubt the mallninjas over on AR15.com and other forums like that will ever discuss the sweet science of casting bullets and getting them to work in gas rifles. Most of them are still shooting 55gr and 62gr FMJ and looking for the next surplus deal on Guatemalan 5.56 overruns to blast at steel plates 10 yards away from them...

Now that's funny!!!! True, but funny.

nekshot
10-23-2014, 02:32 PM
I'm moving! I'm limited to 10lb of lifting but I'm about 90% better than I was before they replaced the disk! I've got a lot of downtime right now so I'm being a Forumwhore on this forum and a couple of others!!! :) Just don't try to chat with me after shortly I've taken my Percocets or Flexerils every 8hours! :) I have no control on what I might type during those times LOL!!!! I've promised myself to not provide loading data at any time during those "funny times"....

Bruce

Now you know why alot of my posts can sound fuzzzzy!

bruce drake
10-23-2014, 06:03 PM
I understand now! I hate taking them and I try to minimize my time on them as much as possible. It sure seems like we touched a nerve on the forum regarding shooting cast in ARs and other MSRs. I'm seeing lots of threads starting regarding shooting ARs with cast.

Bruce

35remington
10-23-2014, 10:17 PM
Just an educated guess, but......since there aren't that many topics started on cast in the 5.56 AR rifle that I've seen and I'm a long term member, making a subforum on gussied up AR's that are shooting cast bullets would result in such a narrowing of the subject matter that it would probably result in a new forum with a lot of crickets chirping.

Where are these "lots of threads?" A few does not make a consensus for a new forum.

Is there some fear that a post under "military rifles" or "cast bullet loads/military rifles" would get missed by these legions of AR fans yearning to shoot cast? Since cast bullet usage in all other military rifles probably outnumbers cast bullet usage in AR's by a considerable amount and these forums aren't that busy I still don't see a customized rifle AR forum devoted just to cast bullet shooting getting that much traffic.

Count the AR based threads on those two forums. Not a lot.

Getting some guys enthusiastic about a new forum doesn't mean that's a realistic take on its potential popularity or advisability. The air rifle forum is slow enough. I'd guess this one would be slower.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket. And yeah, I shoot cast in my AR.....but there still aren't that many of us that post about it.

starmac
10-23-2014, 11:01 PM
They have for some reason never had any appeal to me whatsoever, but I would still vote yes. If someone doesn't want to read about them, don't open the forum, easy enough.

35remington
10-23-2014, 11:05 PM
The deciding issue is traffic and the moderator's willingness to add another category to an already well divided plate of options.

bruce drake
10-23-2014, 11:35 PM
Do a quick search on the site for "cast ar15"... There are over 2500 posts on the subject.

I made that comment when I clicked on new posts this afternoon and saw several posts regarding gas-operated rifles and or AR15s with cast bullets in addition to the posts on this thread line.

Developing this sub-forum would allow the moderators a place to compile this information into one place for people to look at as well.

But hey, I'm not going to stop you from stating your opinion. We all have our own.

Bruce

Fishman
10-23-2014, 11:45 PM
I voted yes but why not a full forum so it is more easily seen. It could also be a bit more generic. How about "gas operated firearms"? An ar forum would only get more popular. A lot of ar talk goes on in the coating forum as well. It's scattered everywhere.

minmax
10-24-2014, 01:31 AM
That what I had in mind CAST BOOLITS in a modern AR sporting or other type of semi auto rifle. None of this what should I get? Key-mod or smooth free float tube with movable rails, that the mall Wanabee Tactard Crowd talk about.
I want to know tips and tricks on casting and shooting Lead. With being able to get them to accurate and reliable.

Thanks For Bruce Drake for stepping, and helping to putting in a poll. Also being willing to be one of the monitors.
Now we just need to have "The Powers To Be" Bless us. By starting us on our merry way.
Plus, send Bruce a special prayer to heal up soon.


I can't type, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin...

303Guy
10-24-2014, 03:53 AM
I do seem to see a lot of AR or auto loading threads and posts. Not being an auto-loader person (I was once) but still interested in cast boolits I sometimes have a glance but I find them not all that relevant it me. I do think that auto-loading folks might well enjoy a sub-forum of their own. That won't stop me from visiting. Especially if they tallk about auto-loading 303's.:mrgreen:

Then again, I don't look at the single shot sub-forum much even though single shots interest me. I'm probably missing out on a lot. Had auto-loaders been on a separate sub forum I might have missed out on the Lewis gun thread for example. So I am still on the fence.

35remington
10-24-2014, 08:17 AM
Take a look at the number of recent posts to gauge potential traffic, not posts over the entire history of the castboolits site. And count threads, not posts, as threads are a better indication of potential activity as they are different topics.....posts are not. 2500 posts over the history of this site is a rather low number and the thread count would be way, way lower. The evidence indicates a very slow moving forum would result. I'm looking for AR specific content, not and/or.

Go to military rifles or cast bullet loads military rifles, the most likely place for AR cast issues to come up. Not a lot going on compared to the rest of the content there. That's what I base my opinion on. One might also want to look at the cast bullets general forum and see how common AR questions about cast boolits are there as that's where most post first despite lack of specialization. They really aren't very common.

But of course, just an educated guess and opinion is all this is. If the subforum is created, we'll see how right or not I am.

bruce drake
10-24-2014, 02:24 PM
If someone has the money to bankroll me 303Guy, I know of a Full Auto Bren Gun that is for sale here in the US and I'd be glad to provide a writeup on shooting boolits through it.... with pictures no less! :) Just send me the money as a gift through Paypal and I'll go get that gun! ;)

And the entire history of the Forum does show the depth of discussion that has been placed here regarding cast boolits in auto rifles. New forums usually get seeded with those threads from other forums that apply to that subject so those threads would be placed within the subforum and become the basis of future discussions.

Bruce

Fishman
10-24-2014, 04:35 PM
The 300 blackout is made for cast. I would love to talk about it on this site as opposed to reading silly stuff about it on other sites. Some have tried to preach the gospel of lead elsewhere for ar's and gotten nowhere.

wlc
10-24-2014, 07:49 PM
I have a couple of AR's, but am on the fence about a separate forum. While my 223/556 uppers have been and always will be jacketed poodle shooters, I do have a 300BLK upper. To me the 300BLK was made for cast, just look at the threads etc concerning loads, molds, PC etc. etc. for it. Whether or not the AR deserves its own forum I dunno. If it gets one I'll take advantage of it, if not then I'll see posts just like I've been doing in the past.

bruce drake
10-24-2014, 08:23 PM
I'll be working on developing cast loads for a M1 Garand in 7x57 this summer once I get a few 7mm/.286 molds made up in a couple of weights OTHER than 130gr. I'm thinking 170gr and 110gr based off Mountain Molds online mold design page. It would be a thread for this forum since its not a factory option but it is gas-operated.

bruce drake
10-24-2014, 09:00 PM
Has anyone noticed the banner ad at the top of the forum advertising the 6 weeks of AR-15 related sales from Brownells, one of our forum sponsors? As well as Bushmaster Firearms...

Fishman
10-24-2014, 10:38 PM
I had to learn some things about my .300 blk the hard way.

Grumpa sells more than a few .300 blk brass to members here. Somebody is using them.

bruce drake
10-25-2014, 02:45 AM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=447918052

303Guy...It's only $8,500US plus a Trust Setup through a lawyer...

alamogunr
10-25-2014, 03:46 PM
Having 2nd thoughts about my Nay vote. Looking back, it seems somewhat disingenuous considering that I received some good advice on putting my first AR together. Kind of feel like a dog that bites the hand that feeds him.

bruce drake
10-25-2014, 04:49 PM
I believe you can cast your vote over John. If not, you are stuck like Chuck saying you voted for Perot in 92...

But yes, gunsmithing the Erector Set of the Gun World could be part of the discussions

Bruce

alamogunr
10-25-2014, 07:47 PM
I doesn't look like I can vote again. But no biggie, it would just be piling on from the results so far.

xacex
10-25-2014, 11:13 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=447918052

303Guy...It's only $8,500US plus a Trust Setup through a lawyer...
Sorry to say, but a trust will not get you that gun. It is a post 86 sample so you need to have a FFL or SOT because it is not transferable for us common folk. If it was it would be closer to 20k. I have a trust, and would be all over that if it was transferable.

dragon813gt
10-26-2014, 08:31 AM
Sorry to say, but a trust will not get you that gun. It is a post 86 sample so you need to have a FFL or SOT because it is not transferable for us common folk. If it was it would be closer to 20k. I have a trust, and would be all over that if it was transferable.

I thought I was reading it wrong but you confirmed what I thought was true.

bruce drake
10-26-2014, 03:10 PM
Dang! And I was soo looking forward to bidding on it! ;)

W.R.Buchanan
10-26-2014, 05:50 PM
I think this is a very good idea! The AR15 Rifle AKA "Modern Sporting Rifle" needs to be separated from the dreaded "Assault Rifle" when ever possible.

These guns have more aftermarket stuff available for them that you can shake a stick at, and the variations are endless.

I just got a Brownell's Catalog specific to AR's it has 104 pages of parts! I'm sure Midway has plenty too.

The thing about AR's is that you can do so many different things with them that it kind of necessitates a specific forum just to deal with all of the different ways you can build and use these guns. More so than other types of guns and well in excess of the Military Rifle forum which you kind of want to separate these guns from when ever possible.

I'm sure it would become very popular quickly.

If you look at the variety of receivers made by no less than 50 different outfits and couple that to the number of each specific part made you could literally build a million or more different guns with no two being exactly the same.

Some of these parts are going to be better than others and this is what would eventually come to the fore front of a dedicated AR Forum. What parts are the best for your gun.

I think it is a good idea and You have my vote.

Randy

brotherdarrell
10-26-2014, 07:10 PM
I have a Rock River that sees nothing but cast and I shoot it a fair amount. I also cast and shoot a 222 rem bolt gun. Other than needing loads that cycle the action on the AR I have found no appreciable difference in approach to working up loads for the two. Sorry, nay vote from me.

Darrell

bruce drake
10-26-2014, 08:25 PM
Each is free to vote as they choose on this. The Poll is simply to allow the forum owner and the moderators an idea of the level of interest in a subforum within Factory Rifles. If you consider the idea reasonable than you vote that way. If you feel that the main forum is the proper place than you vote that way.

Modern Sporting rifles are being used every day and during hunting seasons as well to bring down game. So why shouldn't there be a subforum that is focused on getting these rifles to shoot accurately and reliably with cast boolits.

Some people may say that it would be wrong to single out these rifles and pistols for their own sub-forum but these same firearms are growing in popularity and use in the United States. I would think that particular argument flies in the face of popular wisdom within this very forum as we have a Sub-Forum called Star Equipment Corner in the Casting Equipment forum yet, the number of casters on this forum who own Star machines I am sure are a lot less than owners of ARs on this forum. And the AR has been in production for nearly 50 years while the Star Machine Works Company folded in the 90s...

Bruce

Pink_Vapor
10-26-2014, 10:49 PM
I came to this forum looking for input on exactly this.
I've a suppressed 300BLK SBR 1/7, and several hundred pounds of lead laying about. Since I'm not able to easily locate 220+g bullets locally I figured making my own would be easy since I've already been hand-loading for years. I want them for plinking and hunting.
The more I learn, the more I realize there's a lot more to casting boolits than I thought.
Lee's 230g seems it would be the ticket- but a boat tail??
I don't see any suggested twist rates with the molds, I may pick up a Savage 308 hog gun as well.
GC's don't appear to be a good idea for my TBAC can.
PC looks like the only way to fly to keep the can and gun clean, and it looks simple.
Suggestions for the mold, and saving me from the many holes I'll trip over on this new journey would be much appreciated!
Thanks

fcvan
10-27-2014, 12:10 AM
Pink_vapor, check your email for a PM

bruce drake
10-27-2014, 12:50 AM
I came to this forum looking for input on exactly this.
I've a suppressed 300BLK SBR 1/7, and several hundred pounds of lead laying about. Since I'm not able to easily locate 220+g bullets locally I figured making my own would be easy since I've already been hand-loading for years. I want them for plinking and hunting.
The more I learn, the more I realize there's a lot more to casting boolits than I thought.
Lee's 230g seems it would be the ticket- but a boat tail??
I don't see any suggested twist rates with the molds, I may pick up a Savage 308 hog gun as well.
GC's don't appear to be a good idea for my TBAC can.
PC looks like the only way to fly to keep the can and gun clean, and it looks simple.
Suggestions for the mold, and saving me from the many holes I'll trip over on this new journey would be much appreciated!
Thanks

Pink Vapor,

Welcome to the forum.[smilie=s: 300BLK is a great round for the AR. You can load Supersonic 110-125gr bullets where the cartridge is ballistically equal to a 7.62x39 and literally destroys a 30 Carbine for effectiveness in comparison. Or you can load heavy which it looks like you plan to do if you are searching for Subsonic load information for cast bullets.

If I read your post right, you have a 1-7" twist barrel. Its a good twist for what you are looking for. Lee's 230gr BT Mold was setup for three key issues. one, sheer weight impacts a lot of force to the target at subsonic speeds. Two, there is no need for a Gas check at the speeds this heavy mold is usually fired at and since most are expected to be fired out of a suppressor, removing a gas check prevents one from being dislodged during the bullet's travel through the suppressor and either tearing a baffle or causing damage to the can which would require a rebuild and thirdly, the beveled base allows a bit more room for powder in the cartridge while allowing the cartridge to be loaded at a proper overall length for magazine feeding and chambering.

I know several members on this forum have cans and shoot sub-sonics as well so you'll probably get more information on them regarding loads for such a bullet as the Lee 230. If you don't care for the beveled base, you could have a machinist open up the base of the bullet mold cavity to make it a Flatbase boolit. The weight would probably move up to ~240-245gr with the modification but it should be fine in the 1-7 barrel. My barrel has a 1-9.5" twist. It was sold to me as a 1-9" twist barrel but it works excellently with both heavy (Lyman's 311299 -200gr Round Nose) as well as Medium (147-160gr boolits both cast and jacketed) and my preferred lighter bullets in 110-130gr (Lyman 311259 - 115gr this one is gas-checked / 311410 - 130gr this one is plain-based.). If you have M4 Feed Ramps in your upper, you may have some feeding issues with Roundnose or Flatnose bullet molds. My preferred Medium weight bullet is LEE's 155gr .310 Spirepoint bullet mold but it is a gas-check mold.

I built my 20" 300BLK for Supersonic use as I was living in NY state at the time and they don't allow suppressors in the state. You asked about bullet lube and dealing with your can. PC is a growing subset of the casters here and you can glean a lot of information from the forum on that as well. If you can disassemble your can for regular cleaning of the suppressor and its baffles, I would say that you could use any traditional bullet lubes.

Any other questions? drop into the Factory Rifle thread and start a new thread there and other members will be glad to answer your questions as a fellow caster of the silver stream.

Bruce

FLHTC
10-29-2014, 03:28 AM
It was recently posted by a new member of our forum that perhaps a sub-forum be created regarding shooting cast in ARs and other Modern Sporting Firearms.

I would like to second the idea and I'm willing to assist in moderating the posts on the sub-forum.

I reload and shoot cast in ARs as well as other semi-automatic firearms both in commercial and military surplus categories.

I currently have ARs rigged up in the following calibers: 223 Rem; 5.56 NATO; 300BLK; 7.62x39 and most recently 6.5 Grendel.

I own a custom M1 Garand chambered in 7x57 Mauser and I have a "Christmas Club Account" to eventually purchase both a Noreen Firearms 30-06 AR as well as a 308/7.62NATO AR10.

I've built a poll for people to vote yea/nay on the idea of a subforum for these Modern Sporting Rifles and the tips and tricks in getting them to shoot accurately with cast lead boolits.

Great solution. I'm in favor of the forum as well. These guns are in a group all to themselves and need to be kept that way.

btroj
10-29-2014, 07:37 AM
Heck, why not a Glock forum too? Thy are popular and have some history of being labeled not lead friendly.

At some point the forum will be over run with sub forums for every possible permutation.

Those who want this new forum are thinking locally, the staff has to think globally.

dragon813gt
10-29-2014, 08:06 AM
You are comparing a brand to a platform. That's a poor analogy. It's pretty clear that the moderators have no interest in a growing market segment.

May I suggest you at least add AR type rifles to the description of one of the forums. It is unclear where they should be discussed. I hope we can at least agree on this.

btroj
10-29-2014, 08:21 AM
Where is the problem? An AR is a military style firearm, I know where I would post regarding it.

I just looked in the military rifle forum. On the first page alone there are 3 very obviously AR related threads. Seems to me someone knows to where to post them.

Fishman
10-29-2014, 11:12 AM
And yet this thread is in the Factory Rifles forum.

Any bets on whether or not Pink Vapor posts again? I'd bet not because he won't remember which forum he put his Ar question in . . .

Just in case though, welcome to the site Pink Vapor.

Fishman
10-29-2014, 11:16 AM
You are comparing a brand to a platform. That's a poor analogy. It's pretty clear that the moderators have no interest in a growing market segment.

May I suggest you at least add AR type rifles to the description of one of the forums. It is unclear where they should be discussed. I hope we can at least agree on this.

I agree. If nothing else, including "Ar-15 related discussions go here" in the heading would be a good idea.

Fishman
10-29-2014, 11:17 AM
Heck, why not a Glock forum too? Thy are popular and have some history of being labeled not lead friendly.

At some point the forum will be over run with sub forums for every possible permutation.

Those who want this new forum are thinking locally, the staff has to think globally.

Please elaborate on what you mean by the last sentence. It doesn't make any contextual sense to me.

bruce drake
10-29-2014, 01:03 PM
Btroj,

You should go back to the other thread and revise your last statement there saying you haven't voted on this question of a sub-forum as I can see that you have. Yea or Nay, everyone has a right to voice their opinion regarding the idea of providing assistance to fellow shooters with this firearm and its system of operating with cast lead but saying one thing in one thread and doing the other in another thread leads to inconsistencies in the message.

Last time I did a quick check of retailers of these firearms, there a nearly a hundred different manufactorers/assemblers of this style of firearm. trying to compare it to establishing a Glock subforum which is only one specific firearm manufacturer is disengenious and diverting the basis of discussion on a semi-automatic rifle that many are now using. Its more equivalent to the forum having a subforum on Leverguns which it currently has while calling these rifles AR15 and other Modern Sporting Rifles as military firearms is also wrong as they have a different trigger mechanisms and bolt carriers which are designed to prevent them from functioning in the same manner as a military firearm.

But did you know that Winchester Lever Actions were issued as military firearms in several countries and were even used in combat alongside pump shotguns..so...with that logic you should close down the Leverguns forum and roll all the 1894 and 1895 Levergun threads into military firearms since they ALL obviously were developed for military contracts at one time or another. And perhaps we need to review the Blackpowder and Paperpatch Forums as well to pull all the threads referencing the Kentucky Rifle or the Springfield or Enfield rifles and put them in the Military forum as well since our Revolutionary Soldiers punched holes in the Brits and the Hessions with that Modern Assault rifle of the Time (heavens, those backwoods heathens are using rifled barrels and hiding behind trees and picking off our officers! So unsporting of them Wot!) And used those 45-70 Springfields and 40 caliber Enfields to kill our own brothers with them during the Civil War...or shoot up my Indian relatives out on the plains with the US Calvary in the 1870s...

There you go, sarcasm pushed right back at your arguments against the development of a subforum within Factory Rifles. All of my ARs don't have Property of the US Govt. stamped in their receivers so there is no reason to discount they were built in a civilian factory.

Moonie
10-29-2014, 02:20 PM
I believe it has been decided, it really doesn't matter what the majority want. I really don't understand why some members have serious issues with AR's but it is what it is.

btroj
10-29-2014, 02:51 PM
I have NO issues with AR style rifles. I own 2 of them. Went distinguished with one.
What I do have a problem with is the idea that each "platform" needs a separate forum. The mere concept of "platforms" makes me think we need a tacticool sub forum for these guys.

Maybe be we could have a BR forum, sniper rifle forum, a tricked out 1911 forum, and who knows what else.

Why are inline muzzleloaders lumped in with all the traditional ones?

At some point it just gets silly.

garym1a2
10-29-2014, 03:25 PM
Glocks are a subset handguns. Many AR's nowdays are not factory rifles nor are they Military rifles. I made 3 of mine so they fall in neither class. All four of my Glocks fall in an existing forum, so does the 1911.

btroj
10-29-2014, 03:32 PM
So do what I do, post in the special projects forum. The 30 XCB rifles aren't factory rifles either but we manage to find a home for threads regarding it.

What is the real harm to putting all AR threads in the military rifle forum?

bruce drake
10-29-2014, 04:54 PM
30XCB is a simple wildcat chambering on rifles that normally can handle a x57 chambering. Its a project that maybe 20 people across the USA has decided to make, so yes it does belong in the pet project category.

But how many members of this forum own rifles like an AR or other MSR designs that perhaps could benefit from a collection of threads dedicated to getting these rifles to function and shoot accurately with cast bolits. Just the members who have voted yea on this thread probably out number the active air rifle forum that is here on the site. MSR shooters probably outnumber the people who own Star reloading machines but they have their own subforum. shouldn't they just be lumped in with the rest of the other casting equipment that is out there? As people say, if you want to know about a Star machine, you can hit the search button...

I still haven't heard from any moderators on this forum on their opinions or from the owner of the site... so to me the threads are still in consideration on the SUB - FORUM status. Hell, I'm not asking for a separate heading on the main screen but a sub-forum would be a means of compiling all the disparate threads that are on the entire forum and placing them in one neat and organized manner.

But remember, 90 years ago, when the first bolt-action rifles from WWI were coming back into the woods as surplus rifles with the WWI veteran to hunt deer, I'm sure the old fogies with their lever-actions and single-shots didn't like them new-fangled infernal military rifles in their woods either. So what are you? An old fogie or someone who is willing to adapt an old proven boolit design to a new type of rifle.

Bruce

btroj
10-29-2014, 06:15 PM
Have you sent a PM to the site owner? I can assure you he doesn't read every post on the site.

I resent the old fogie comments. I am neither old or a fogie. I happen yo own a couple of ARs. I just happen to know posts regarding them belong in the military rifle forum.

If if a group of 50 people with interest in a topic all get together and find a common location to make the proper posts does it matter if it isn't a specific forum area? Do you guys know you can PN each other and determine where the posts should be?

Love Life
10-29-2014, 07:19 PM
I will cast my vote as "Yes" to an AR forum or sub-forum.

I have AR's, don't shoot cast in them, never plan to, but maybe some day I will. Sho' would be nice to find all the info in one place instead of having to Google search it up.

People can call me lazy for that, but we can throw knuckles over it if we ever meet in person.

Summary: I vote yes to a subforum. My reasons are because I own AR style rifles and because I do not want to have to google search the various threads.

35remington
10-29-2014, 07:25 PM
Swarm the military forum and make it your own. Bombard it with posts......you're certainly not getting the job done now. Is it possible that is because the interest level is low?

Since part of the above comments were directed at what I said on the other thread, I'll reply here. Comparing an AR to a Glock is hardly disingenuous as it is a single model for the most part. No matter who makes it, it's still an AR, and the parts are interchangeable to a very large degree.. Your argument would be relevant if we had subforums for 1911's, which has had even more makers and developers of parts over the years and in various countries than the AR does....but we don't.

Cast bullet usage and commentary is far, far, far more prevalent with the 1911 than with the AR. It doesn't have its own subforum either.....and its traffic level concerning its potential usage with cast bullets would be far higher than your proposed forum.

As I said, the site has never had a specific forum for a specific model of firearm.....or even brand, for that matter. You'd have to be less than a deep thinker not to wonder why. A reasonable conclusion is it is better this way somehow.

35remington
10-29-2014, 07:54 PM
And incidentally, I don't have issues with AR's. I own more AR's than a lot of those here arguing for a special AR forum. I shoot cast in them. I find topics relevant to my interests here easily. Not sure why I am so blessed in so doing, but it ain't because of superior brains on my part.

I'm just pointing out practical realities, which are two in number and to date, absolutely unrefuted:

1) No other firearm model has its own specific subforum here, likely for reasons that the powers that be decided had to do with fairness and the avoidance of Balkanization. Believe me on this one. I moderate on a Balkanized site and it's a friggin' disaster.

Take the word of a moderator on that. If you aren't one, you can't imagine the headaches of catering to every niche interest out there. Way, way too many of the forums on our site having cobwebs and crickets living there, and too much time goes between posts to justify the time and bandwidth. We've pared some off over time. How many here think the moderators and site administrators don't regret creating an Airgun forum? (thankfully with no Benjamin or Crosman subforums!)

I would guess that they're resolved not to repeat that mistake, and further resolved not to break the policy of No Separate Forums For Specific Models of Firearms. I gave the reasons why they likely think that way.

2) Cast bullet topics specific to the AR don't generate a lot of traffic. The result will be a slow moving forum. Moderators and site administrators generally don't like this too much. The payoff is too low for the hassle involved. The site administrators particularly deal with a lot of guff.

bruce drake
10-29-2014, 08:43 PM
964 comments on 300 Blackout which is mostly shot in AR style rifles although some shoot them in H&R single shots or have converted other 223 bolt rifles over to this cartridge.
340 comments references AK47 usage with lead
2520 comments referencing AR15 usage on this forum
15,500 comments reference cast 223 loads - numbers are high as many of these may be in bolt rifles for varmint usage but I also see queries on cast in AR15s.
719 comments on using 6.8 SPC cartridges - a cartridge developed for AR usage
416 comments on using 6.5 Grendel cartridges - another cartridge developed for AR usage
974 comments on using 7.62x39 cartridges in ARs
507 comments on lead bullets in AK47s

I guess it would be nice to have all these comments and threads in a concise area in easy access to our users versus having to google search for all of these comments.

Bruce

btroj
10-29-2014, 09:09 PM
And they all have a home, in the military rifle forum. Take a look at what it says under the forum title, pretty well sums it up.

bruce drake
10-29-2014, 09:35 PM
When did a 6.8SPC or 6.5 Grendel ever become an official military cartridge? Please tell me the DODIC Codes for those calibers?

"If you have a favorite Mil-surp,sporterized or original this is where to brag or ask for help."

AR-15s are not Military Surplus. If I had purchased an out of date M16 from the government than it might have a home in this category. Since its a commercially developed rifle (Armalite and Colt developed them as civilian rifles first before the Air Force purchased the first full auto selective fire variants.) I still feel the AR15 belongs under the Factory Rifle designation and especially when its chambered in a caliber that isn't a military based cartridge.

45 2.1
10-29-2014, 09:49 PM
So, ask for a semi-auto sub forum in military rifles............... Maybe the bickering would end that way.

bruce drake
10-29-2014, 10:11 PM
Well then would the archaic Puritans out in Nebraska, Idaho and England who stated "no way" be satisfied with the creations of yet another sub-forum no matter what its name is which seems to be their main sticking point against the developing of a place to discuss cast bullets in modern sporting rifles. Hell, I thought that was what Moderators where for in the first place, to develop a consenus based off what the participants in the forum where discussing. I'd be satisfied with a creation of a sub-forum anywhere in the forum which collected every post regarding ARs AKs and other Modern Sporting firearms into one concise location.

I appreciate your post 45.2.1 as I know you've sat in and helped many a forum member in the past develop better cast loads for their rifles and pistols even to the point of designing new cast bullets to ensure an accurate load could be developed. What was irritating me during this was the attitudes of others who refused to even see the logic that these rifles and pistols based off these designs operate off different principles than the older Schuetzen or Lever-Action rifles and that the users of these newer designed rifles also could benefit from using some of those same principles of casting and shooting lead bullets to expand the use of these rifles in an economical worthwhile way. And if they developed the love of shooting cast in their semi-auto rifles, than perhas they would pick up the love of shooting other rifles and pistols with cast boolits as well.

Bruce

dkf
10-29-2014, 10:15 PM
So, ask for a semi-auto sub forum in military rifles............... Maybe the bickering would end that way.

Basically aanything like that or even the discussion of what could be done was nixed from the beginning. I think a guy could get further with Harry Reid.

btroj
10-29-2014, 10:23 PM
Has anyone actually asked an Admin about a sub forum? Anyone?

bruce drake
10-29-2014, 10:29 PM
Yes in PMs to several Mods as well as the forum owner. Since you ain't one of them, I didn't include you in the address block but now you know.

Hamish
10-30-2014, 12:09 AM
Whether they get a sub heading in "Factory Rifles", or their own heading, AR's are NOT military surplus.

bruce drake
10-30-2014, 02:09 AM
whether they get a sub heading in "factory rifles", or their own heading, ar's are not military surplus.

exactly.

45 2.1
10-30-2014, 09:43 AM
Basically anything like that or even the discussion of what could be done was nixed from the beginning. I think a guy could get further with Harry Reid.

Yes, the thought process is a very old idea......and political in nature, which is basically "Not invented here". Basically, if they didn't think of it and don't want it, we aren't going to get it.................

Love Life
10-30-2014, 11:16 AM
Calling an AR military surplus is like calling a a countersniper scope a military over run optic.

Where can I buy some of those Military surplus selective fire AR's?

dragon813gt
10-30-2014, 11:41 AM
Calling an AR military surplus is like calling a a countersniper scope a military over run optic.

Where can I buy some of those Military surplus selective fire AR's?

Well that's why they should be in the factory rifle forum. Oh wait, I built mine so it should be in the special projects forum. I bought a lower that is registered as a pistol so that one belongs in the Wheelguns/Pistols/Hand Cannons forum. Unfortunately I have to fill out a second form that goes to the PA State Police when purchasing a handgun. In the eyes of the law it's a handgun, not a rifle. Ahh screw it, I will just post in the military rifle forum since that makes the most sense.

Fishman
10-30-2014, 11:51 AM
Well that's why they should be in the factory rifle forum. Oh wait, I built mine so it should be in the special projects forum. I bought a lower that is registered as a pistol so that one belongs in the Wheelguns/Pistols/Hand Cannons forum. Unfortunately I have to fill out a second form that goes to the PA State Police when purchasing a handgun. In the eyes of the law it's a handgun, not a rifle. Ahh screw it, I will just post in the military rifle forum since that makes the most sense.

And that encapsulates the argument for a subforum perfectly.

Now perhaps I am off to browse the blackpowder paper patch forum, because I am interested in them and don't know enough to even ask a question yet much less search for anything specific. Good think I have a titled forum to go to to find out about them, because I am sure they are fascinating and I like learning about all things firearm related.

dkf
10-30-2014, 01:23 PM
Calling an AR military surplus is like calling a a countersniper scope a military over run optic.

Where can I buy some of those Military surplus selective fire AR's?

If you run across some do let me know. There is lunch and big kiss in it for you.[smilie=l:

Love Life
10-30-2014, 02:12 PM
Well that's why they should be in the factory rifle forum. Oh wait, I built mine so it should be in the special projects forum. I bought a lower that is registered as a pistol so that one belongs in the Wheelguns/Pistols/Hand Cannons forum. Unfortunately I have to fill out a second form that goes to the PA State Police when purchasing a handgun. In the eyes of the law it's a handgun, not a rifle. Ahh screw it, I will just post in the military rifle forum since that makes the most sense.

I literally laughed out loud.

garym1a2
10-30-2014, 02:48 PM
Since you built it yourself it should be in the "Gunsmithing Tips & Tricks" sections to show others how to built.
Well that's why they should be in the factory rifle forum. Oh wait, I built mine so it should be in the special projects forum. I bought a lower that is registered as a pistol so that one belongs in the Wheelguns/Pistols/Hand Cannons forum. Unfortunately I have to fill out a second form that goes to the PA State Police when purchasing a handgun. In the eyes of the law it's a handgun, not a rifle. Ahh screw it, I will just post in the military rifle forum since that makes the most sense.

Love Life
10-30-2014, 02:53 PM
Since you built it yourself it should be in the "Gunsmithing Tips & Tricks" sections to show others how to built.


It has already been declared that building an AR is not gunsmithing.

dkf
10-30-2014, 03:30 PM
Even if I machined the lower myself, blended the feed ramp area of the upper and machined the ejection port so it feeds/ejects the bigger round, then sent both off for anodizing? Plus assembly.

bruce drake
10-30-2014, 04:06 PM
...and don't forget trueing the barrel extension to the upper receiver...but that's not gunsmithing either...

Bruce

garym1a2
10-30-2014, 04:08 PM
Now I feel bad, I thought I was a good self taught gunsmith. Does changing barrels, springs and connectors in a Glock count?

It has already been declared that building an AR is not gunsmithing.

bruce drake
10-30-2014, 04:17 PM
oh no...only if you do it on a 1911... ;) I swapped grips on one of my 1911s and that put me in the gunsmith inner circle..than I actually chambered a 400 Corbon barrel to a 1911 slide...

Ajax
10-30-2014, 04:31 PM
All I see here is complaining and sarcasm. I think this discussion has run its course. Can we get a mod to weigh in and give us some insight, on the behind the scenes on this please ? Is it being discussed or has it been decided?

Andy

freebullet
10-30-2014, 04:33 PM
The ar subforum is at doe run with all the 22lr

alamogunr
10-30-2014, 05:25 PM
The last couple of pages belong in "Humor & Off Topic"

bruce drake
10-30-2014, 06:03 PM
Perhaps the sarcasm being shown by our threads is due to the inability of a moderator actually making a presence known on this thread. Instead we have seen former moderators making their august presence and opinion known from on high as well as folks who choose not to address the issue of modern sporting rifles being considered a viable discussion point.

A discussion past "It ain't gonna happen." is not a worthwhile discussion between adults.

Bruce

btroj
10-30-2014, 06:19 PM
Where did anyone say "modern sporting rifles" are not a viable discussion point?

The point is not the value of the discussion but rather the merits of a separate sub forum for said discussion.

Love Life
10-30-2014, 06:32 PM
We should all take it to the beyond 5.56 forum which is the largest game of electronic tummy sticks in recorded history.

bruce drake
10-30-2014, 06:47 PM
LL,

Good Lord, you want all to start running around in tacti-cool camouflage and kneepads arguing over the merits of M193 versus M855A ammo?

Bruce

bruce drake
10-30-2014, 07:07 PM
Look back at the beginning when runfiverun commented on the beginning of the other thread and Waksupi commented at the beginning of this thread of their opinion regarding and these modern rifles.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?257126-Setting-up-a-poll-how-to-for-separate-AR-Form/page2 - R5R

Hamish
10-30-2014, 08:46 PM
I am having a REALLY hard time understanding the small number of vehemently opposed members.

it seems to me that most, on BOTH sides, are only thinking in past and present terms. It seems blatantly obvious to me that AR owners looking for, and finding this site, interested in finding a cheaper way to shoot their various calibers, can only skyrocket over the next months and years. I would think that it would be fairly obvious that the more young folks exiting the military, the more will be showing up here.

Fishman
10-30-2014, 09:26 PM
All I see here is complaining and sarcasm. I think this discussion has run its course. Can we get a mod to weigh in and give us some insight, on the behind the scenes on this please ? Is it being discussed or has it been decided?

Andy
You obviously didnt read the whole thread because several members have made cogent rational arguments for a separate forum.

And you know, as a member who has contributed to the site in various ways, I kind of resent the dismissive attitude toward my opinion.

bruce drake
10-30-2014, 11:28 PM
I will tell you all that personally I am getting irritated at some individuals on this thread who are declaring this forum is just fine the way it is and are not even willing to discuss what could be the possibility of the future of cast boolits within the USA. There is a reason that matchlocks being built today are being built as replicas of a bygone age, there are newer and improved versions of the rifle on the market now.

Professionally, I will tell you that AR15s and other semi-automatic firearms are indeed some of the fastest growing style of rifles in the US according to the NRA. Developing cast boolit loads to operate in them or developing the required changes to these firearms to ensure 100% reliability with cast boolits of both supersonic as well as sub-sonic variety.... and then sharing that information freely to help convince others to join this society of casters should be what we are focusing this potential sub-forum towards.

Bruce

Ajax
10-31-2014, 04:52 AM
You obviously didnt read the whole thread because several members have made cogent rational arguments for a separate forum.

And you know, as a member who has contributed to the site in various ways, I kind of resent the dismissive attitude toward my opinion.


I have read the whole thread and some great points have been made. I think we should change the titles of one of the forums to include ARs. I was not commenting on anyone directly. I was just stating that the last few pages has been people taking jabs at each other. I honestly think maybe a sub-forum under factory rifles would be perfect and changing the title of the factory forum to reflect it. I am also done with this discussion, apparently the only opinions that matter have to be for the idea.


Andy

Fishman
10-31-2014, 10:06 AM
The more I look at the board structure, the more it makes sense to get rid of the factory rifles forum and make three new forums: "semiautomatic", "pumpguns", and "bolt guns". This would be consistent with the "single shot" and "lever guns" forums and cover all the bases. Each of these action types present different challenges to the bullet caster. It also would allow new casters to browse a forum and learn about casting for their gun. Many here forget how little they knew when they first started. Doing a search when you don't even know what to ask is problematic.

I've never moderated a forum so it would be instructional for a moderator to weigh in at some point to explain why the same amount of traffic in five forums would be harder to deal with than in three forums?

Those that want less forums can always just set the site to bring up only recent active threads.

garym1a2
10-31-2014, 11:24 AM
I like this idea.
The more I look at the board structure, the more it makes sense to get rid of the factory rifles forum and make three new forums: "semiautomatic", "pumpguns", and "bolt guns". This would be consistent with the "single shot" and "lever guns" forums and cover all the bases. Each of these action types present different challenges to the bullet caster. It also would allow new casters to browse a forum and learn about casting for their gun. Many here forget how little they knew when they first started. Doing a search when you don't even know what to ask is problematic.

I've never moderated a forum so it would be instructional for a moderator to weigh in at some point to explain why the same amount of traffic in five forums would be harder to deal with than in three forums?

Those that want less forums can always just set the site to bring up only recent active threads.

Smoke4320
10-31-2014, 11:47 AM
The more I look at the board structure, the more it makes sense to get rid of the factory rifles forum and make three new forums: "semiautomatic", "pumpguns", and "bolt guns". This would be consistent with the "single shot" and "lever guns" forums and cover all the bases. Each of these action types present different challenges to the bullet caster. It also would allow new casters to browse a forum and learn about casting for their gun. Many here forget how little they knew when they first started. Doing a search when you don't even know what to ask is problematic.

I've never moderated a forum so it would be instructional for a moderator to weigh in at some point to explain why the same amount of traffic in five forums would be harder to deal with than in three forums?

Those that want less forums can always just set the site to bring up only recent active threads.

Makes the most sense of all the discussions so far in this thread
Simple to find and post to the area/weapon style of your liking

FLHTC
10-31-2014, 07:20 PM
Very good approach although, I think it would be easier to get Obama to move to Liberia.

bruce drake
11-01-2014, 08:21 PM
Very good approach although, I think it would be easier to get Obama to move to Liberia.

Now that is funny...

45 2.1
11-02-2014, 03:38 PM
Now that is funny...

Sadly, it is also true.........................

cbrick
11-02-2014, 10:23 PM
Very good approach although, I think it would be easier to get Obama to move to Liberia.

Hey, I'd vote for that. :mrgreen: I'd even help pay for the move.

BTW, where is Liberia? :veryconfu

Rick

bruce drake
11-03-2014, 12:02 PM
Liberia is right next to Ebola-ville...

I like Fishman's idea of reorganizing some of the forums to reflect the different types of firearms but I'm not a Moderator or Site Owner so we'll just have to see what they decide to do.

Bruce

427smith
11-06-2014, 09:14 PM
2 cents worth. only 79 votes? either there's no interest, or AR shooters can't find AR related articles.

bruce drake
11-07-2014, 01:01 AM
I believe most are waiting for responses from mods or the owner.

MaryB
11-08-2014, 11:59 PM
With the lack of a decent forum for AR cast boolit shooters I go for the Semi auto(full auto too!), bolt and pump gun forums.

45 2.1
11-11-2014, 11:13 AM
It's back to the same story though.......... The PTB don't want it.

runfiverun
11-11-2014, 01:26 PM
there is a section marked for AK/SKS type rifles [you know,, the last big thing] just above this one.
I'd imagine an AR type rifle would fit right in there.

I could maybe talk the owner into adding AR right behind AK/SKS if it would make everyone feel better.

dragon813gt
11-11-2014, 04:28 PM
Just so you know. Forum descriptions are not viewable through Tapatalk. Since a lot of people are accessing the site on their phones they might want to address this. There are other forum apps as well that people could be using. They days of everyone accessing the site through a desktop at home are dead. Mobile browsing creates it's own set of issues and I'm sure the forum owner is aware of this.

45 2.1
11-11-2014, 05:17 PM
The days of everyone accessing the site through a desktop at home are dead.

I know quite a few people on this site that do just that.................... eventually what you say may come to pass though.

dragon813gt
11-11-2014, 07:03 PM
I didn't say no one did. I said not everyone. There is a big difference. I never view the site on a computer. I know there are others that do the same. Tapatalk signatures are disabled here. If they were enabled, not saying to do it, it would be more apparent how many mobile browse.

runfiverun
11-11-2014, 07:30 PM
I don't use tapatalk on my I-phone and can see the descriptions, but I do have to 'blow-up' the screen.
[I do anyway just to read the posts]

dragon813gt
11-11-2014, 07:59 PM
I brought it up because there are multiple forum apps. For those of us that are members of more than one forum they are indispensable. No zooming necessary to read posts. I simply brought it up to point out that descriptions aren't visible. What happens from there isn't up to me.

bruce drake
11-11-2014, 09:07 PM
Are you talking about the CB Loads/Military rifles where its only in the subheading of the forum? If the owner agrees to helping you Moderatorii in placing all AR related threads from across the forums within that subforum it would be a big step towards compiling the data into one place for others to benefit from.

Bruce


there is a section marked for AK/SKS type rifles [you know,, the last big thing] just above this one.
I'd imagine an AR type rifle would fit right in there.

I could maybe talk the owner into adding AR right behind AK/SKS if it would make everyone feel better.

Fishman
11-12-2014, 06:07 PM
I didn't say no one did. I said not everyone. There is a big difference. I never view the site on a computer. I know there are others that do the same. Tapatalk signatures are disabled here. If they were enabled, not saying to do it, it would be more apparent how many mobile browse.


What's a "computer"? asked my young son.

Dragon is right, and I think the number of people viewing this site with a computer will be in the minority very soon. Heck the only reason most people use one is because they are at work and it is right there on their desk.

This is kind of peripheral to the discussion at hand but emblematic in a way, as a refusal to acknowledge that technology changes. Conservative always in all ways is some of ya'lls motto LOL.

alamogunr
11-12-2014, 07:23 PM
What's a "computer"? asked my young son.

Dragon is right, and I think the number of people viewing this site with a computer will be in the minority very soon. Heck the only reason most people use one is because they are at work and it is right there on their desk.

This is kind of peripheral to the discussion at hand but emblematic in a way, as a refusal to acknowledge that technology changes. Conservative always in all ways is some of ya'lls motto LOL.

I guess this means I will soon be kicked off this board. I just bought a new desktop computer. I refuse to sit around playing with a "cell phone". Except for the wrinkles and gray hair I might be mistaken for a teenager or "millennial"(?) and I have never had any desire to take a computer with me wherever I go.

runfiverun
11-12-2014, 07:59 PM
Bruce:
my time is quite limited, but I'm willing to help however I can.
I was thinking that if the AR title was added there, it MIGHT help draw the questions to that area better.
and if Rob okayed it, we could handle the other 'found' thread movements through post reporting, and then any Mod could make the move.

once the threads started filling in there it would become the AR area by it's own accord.
would something like that work?

anybody else got a better idea? ,,, other than starting a new sub-forum.

35remington
11-12-2014, 08:04 PM
Since the subforum idea is deader than canned tuna I think R5R's suggestion is as good as it's gonna get.

dragon813gt
11-12-2014, 08:54 PM
R5R's suggestion makes the most sense. I was never really advocating for a separate forum. Just some clarification as to where they should go.

Fishman
11-12-2014, 10:17 PM
Sounds good to me. It's just a spirited discussion anyway, just like every other topic on this board. Thanks R5R.

bruce drake
11-13-2014, 12:30 AM
I'm in agreeance that the AR threads will benefit from finding a home on the forum finally. The Poll has been a steady 3-1 since it was started in favor of doing something for the newer designed rifles. I appreciate R5R stepping forward with a potentially moderate answer for this. I prefer this forum to any other forum on the net so adding ARs to the forum is a great idea.

Sidenote - shot my 6.5 Grendel AR15 for the very first time today. Appropriately, my first 10 shots were cast lead and at 50 yards with fireforming loads and they all stayed within a 3MOA circle. Not bad for using some .264 110gr cast bullets (actually from a modified Herters 257100 mold that has it's driving bands cut deeper) and 18gr of Reloader 19 just to fireform the cases. no ejection after firing but the cases were blown out to the proper cartridge dimensions from the slow rifle powder.

Bruce

runfiverun
11-16-2014, 07:06 PM
i'll bring it up in the mod section and see if we can't get a header change to the military rifle forum.
if that gets approved i'll move threads when I find them, and you guy's can report them saying 'wrong forum' in the report box.
this will at least get everything in one place.

bruce drake
11-17-2014, 11:59 AM
It would be very helpful. Thank you.

bruce drake
11-26-2014, 10:17 PM
69 For / 22 Against
Final tally regarding the idea of placing the AR and other Modern Sporting Rifles in a subforum within this Factory Rifle Forum.

I figured I owed people a final tally on this thread since the poll closed officially this week.

Bruce

Fishman
12-03-2014, 05:50 PM
Thanks for your efforts on this Bruce. The tiny little sliver of bone we were thrown on this deal must have fallen through the cracks, because the CB loads/ military rifle header includes AK's and SKS's but still no AR's.

Which is funny, because I'm quite sure that more members of this site own an AR than any one of the other listed military firearms. I know the horse is dead, rotten, and eaten by buzzards, but I'm taking another whack at it. My suggestion of a separate forum for boltguns, leverguns, single shots, pumpguns, and semiautos makes more sense than having three of those and then a forum for "factory guns", which most of them are anyway. Currently there are at least a dozen active AR threads in several different forums right now. As the most recent American Rifleman mag points out, the AR is ubiquitous and the fastest growing firearms segment by far in the last 10 years.

As users of this site, it would appear we have very little to lose either way. Either Castboolits addresses this obvious need, or some other casting site will come into being and we can join that one. I happen to like this site a lot, and would prefer to stay here. Regardless, change will happen and those that can't or won't adapt will be the loser.

427smith
12-03-2014, 09:55 PM
I also would like to thank Bruce for his efforts. Never Ever thought I'd want an AR15,,, until I saw the ballistics on the 300 blkout. It's perfect for cast boolits, so I got one, just looked at a 458 socom and thinking about it serious.

Fishman
12-03-2014, 10:13 PM
The socom looks pretty neat I would agree. Starline is about a week away from another run of brass at least according to their site. The brass is pricey though. I also think it is the logical companion tto the 300 blk.

minmax
12-03-2014, 10:29 PM
Once again, I would like to thank Bruce, for taking a stand on this subject. I wanted to find the best use of cast boolits in an MSR. I look here for the best information. And dislike most of the other forums. Thanks again for all that voted for an AR/MSR sub

35remington
12-03-2014, 10:46 PM
Obviously they did not see a special subforum for a specific rifle model that does not generate much "cast bullet traffic" compared to a whole forum combining all types of military rifles as necessary. Especially when a special subforum for a specific rifle model has obviously never been done before on this site, and was obviously not likely to be done now for reasons having to do with Balkanization and very low post and thread counts.

Obviously.....the need for said forum was hardly obvious to anyone that had to do the work and truly observed the traffic levels for AR's here compared to the forum for, say, military rifles as a whole.

The "obvious need" for a cast bullet forum specific to the AR's wasn't at all obvious.

Seems obvious.

One is free to host and promote a cast bullet site specifically for AR's if it's your nickel and dime. Don't hold your breath for a blistering post count. The demand has to be there for the hassle to be worthwhile. It isn't. Obviously.

Fishman
12-04-2014, 12:21 AM
Obviously they did not see a special subforum for a specific rifle model that does not generate much "cast bullet traffic" compared to a whole forum combining all types of military rifles as necessary. Especially when a special subforum for a specific rifle model has obviously never been done before on this site, and was obviously not likely to be done now for reasons having to do with Balkanization and very low post and thread counts.

Obviously.....the need for said forum was hardly obvious to anyone that had to do the work and truly observed the traffic levels for AR's here compared to the forum for, say, military rifles as a whole.

The "obvious need" for a cast bullet forum specific to the AR's wasn't at all obvious.

Seems obvious.

One is free to host and promote a cast bullet site specifically for AR's if it's your nickel and dime. Don't hold your breath for a blistering post count. The demand has to be there for the hassle to be worthwhile. It isn't. Obviously.

Calling a spade a spade here, since civility seems to be lacking by those who feel the need to "fight this injustice" when they have no dog in the fight. The ignorance in this post is staggering. To be clear, semiautomatics are a group of firearms unto themselves just like lever guns and they are chambered in more than one caliber. Yes, I am being patronizing and it doesn't feel that good does it? And while I'm at it, I'm tired of hearing the term "Balkanization", particularly when it is being misused.

There are currently at least two threads about AR's on the first page of ALL the forums that could reasonably contain such threads. Add in the sprinkling of sks, ak, and m1 carbine questions and there are seveal more. Since you only have to look in one place for 35 Remington lever gun discussions, I wouldn't expect you to understand the problem.

35remington
12-04-2014, 01:17 AM
An AR is a specific model of rifle. They've never gone there. What about that is not understood, nor that there is not that much specific cast bullet AR traffic? Why do I need to repeat the truly obvious?

And it most certainly is obvious. I have a dog in this fight......I have 3 AR's. I shoot cast bullets in them. I have no trouble finding all the information I need here. I am not fighting any injustice as I really don't care one way or another and have not voted. Simply trying to explain.....but that's not getting through.

Maybe for the fact that the "special" subforum didn't happen and wasn't likely to happen, it would be expected to have some person try to explain why that didn't happen.....yet I am being labeled a "naysayer." Read again until that sinks in, please.

There is no ignorance in that post.... I just have a greater understanding of how this site works than those agitating for change have. I have outlined all the reasons why a subforum special to a particular model of rifle won't be done. Said reasons are extremely relevant, and a new subforum did not come to pass.

You can understand why, or not. Not understanding why is a choice.

There's more than a few posts about 1911's scattered through this site at the moment.....more so than AR's. They don't have their own "special" Semiautomatic or 1911 Pistol forum either, and the traffic a 1911 or a semiautomatic pistol generates in regards to cast bullets here is certainly more than an AR's. They hafta get lumped with the sixguns and Contenders. If you don't understand that there is no special treatment....that too is a choice.

I don't expect to see 1911's and their discussions in just one place and I don't. I see 35 Remington discussions in several places too and I NEVER have found all the 35 Remington discussions on just one place on this site. As do many other topics and firearms. Those looking in "one" place for a conversation about their favorite firearm would be missing out, as it can show up in Cast Boolits, Hunting, Our Town, Powders, Factory Rifles, Wheelguns and Handcannons, Single Shots, Leverguns, any one of many places, depending upon just what kind of arm it is.

You are crediting this site with some sort of magical Dewey Decimal System it does not have. Topics dealing with the same arm have always potentially been widely scattered. Best cast bullet powder in AR's? Look in the Surplus and Canister Powder section. Great cast bullet results in your favorite AR cartridge, the 300 Blackout? Look under Your Favorite Cartridge.....it might be there too. Or in the Cast Boolits section. So might my 35 Remington. Even though it's a levergun, it can also be a favorite cartridge.

You aren't being slighted. You aren't being shortchanged. You aren't being ignored. You're simply being treated like everyone else. Sorry you can't realize that.

I rather doubt this site will wither on the vine because they resist Balkanization and special single firearm model specific forums. If you're bored you can continue to agitate for change that won't happen for reasons I've explained and try to misrepresent my stance on the issue.

That will continue to produce no results.

Balkanization: definition..... To divide groups or areas into contending or ineffectual factions. A slow forum that splits a hair that was split for no other type of specific firearm model fits that definition to a "T."

You want to find something of interest......you gotta read the forum.......all of it that might reasonably be relevant. Shortcuts will shortchange. Everyone is in the same boat with this issue.

Regular users of this site understand that you NEVER look in just one place.

runfiverun
12-04-2014, 03:12 AM
sorry to all for getting back to this thread so late, I have been on the North Dakota/Canadian border for the last 15 day's and had no internet access for a good bit of that time.

anyway,,,, I put up a thread in the mod section proposing a change under the forums name [in the description] and was shut down on the idea.
they figure the threads should go in the military rifle forum [I know duh, right?] but I got a no go vote on the addition of any rifle names to it's description.

762 shooter
12-04-2014, 07:42 AM
I have a penny and a half to add.

With the excellent search function here now, one could include one specific term or group of letters to each AR post ( AR15, ARFORUM, Sneaky AR. etc.) and create an imbedded subforum Hydra with no head.

Coder rings and handshakes could come later.

I used to waste time over organizing my computer directories until I realized the power of Search.

I'm saving my other half penny.

762

Edit: Can't figure out how to search for just new posts. Bad idea.

Fishman
12-04-2014, 08:22 AM
"Regular users of this site understand that you NEVER look in just one place."

This is the best reason yet for my argument but only if the goal of this site is to educate new shooters about casting.

Fishman
12-04-2014, 08:23 AM
sorry to all for getting back to this thread so late, I have been on the North Dakota/Canadian border for the last 15 day's and had no internet access for a good bit of that time.

anyway,,,, I put up a thread in the mod section proposing a change under the forums name [in the description] and was shut down on the idea.
they figure the threads should go in the military rifle forum [I know duh, right?] but I got a no go vote on the addition of any rifle names to it's description.

Thank you for your effort R5R.

35remington
12-04-2014, 09:08 AM
Fishman.....again, everyone has topics relevant to their interests scattered everywhere on this site, because they fit in a lot of places. Everyone. That doesn't support your point. It's just practical reality. A very slow AR specific forum will not prevent this from happening because it doesn't prevent it with other topics.

Since a lot of people come here already.....the most popular site on the net.....it's reasonable to suggest they're coming here for education and information. Who is to say that's not getting done, especially since all these subgroups already look for information in a way you don't happen to like and that they happen to not complain about? The silent majority may be speaking out.....silently.

I think you need to reread what I posted. It's the best anyone will do for you. All your complaints as to "why not" have been addressed, point by point.

Given the actions and stated opinions of moderators that weighed in on the topic earlier, the argument for a "special" subforum is as moot as moot gets.

bruce drake
12-04-2014, 10:17 AM
Well R5R did try within the Mod forum.

Regarding the current spitting match on this thread, I don't see a reason for it amongst ourselves.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts towards my efforts to try to develop a unified place for all Modern Sporting Rifles using cast boolits on this forum for new and older members of this forum.

The benefit of having our moderators is their ability to help re-locate threads that are misplaced or in wrong sub-forums and then place the threads into the proper location or kill the threads if the posters become antagonistic towards each other.

And for the forum members who have started shooting cast in their MSRs due to conversations such as this, I still stand available to answer questions via threads or by PMs to help refine your shooting.

Went to the range yesterday and put over 200 boolits each through my 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 ARs with zero stoppages or leading. If you take the time to learn, you can have a MSR that chews out lead boolits as well as jacketed bullets.

Bruce

runfiverun
12-04-2014, 10:58 AM
I like seeing the cast boolits in the ar rifles threads.
I had an aversion to them after carrying one around everywhere I went for a while.
then I bought one a while back and figured out how to make cast boolit loads work in it.
they worked, they worked well, they were accurate and run in the 2750-2800 fps range with accuracy on par with my swaged and store bought bullets.

the thing is.
the kids like the AR rifles, which means that the next generation of casters are going to be using these types of rifles the same way we shot carbines, m-1's, mausers, etc.
so we might as well be talking about them in a positive light, and figuring out how to make them work correctly with cast boolits.

there ain't a need to argue about this.

45 2.1
12-04-2014, 11:13 AM
the thing is.
the kids like the AR rifles, which means that the next generation of casters are going to be using these types of rifles the same way we shot carbines, m-1's, mausers, etc.
so we might as well be talking about them in a positive light, and figuring out how to make them work correctly with cast boolits.

there ain't a need to argue about this.

The leadership wants it one way........ bolt action rifles at low velocity to "STOP ARGUMENTS". Until something else happens, thats the way it's goin' to be here.

I thought the various iterations of "Shooters" (of which this is the latest version) was supposed to help people learn..... somewhat the purpose the CBA espouses. Doesn't seem so now though. Anyway, Thanks for the effort Lamar.

bruce drake
12-04-2014, 11:26 PM
And MSRs have landed in the CB Loads / Military Rifles forum it seems by action of one of the moderators as ARs and other modern sporting rifles are now being identified in this sub-forum's headers for new members to come there first.

Its a start and perhaps we can help more AR/AK and other MSR shooters in the future with the depth of our discussions regarding these rifles and the loads need to get them functioning successfully with cast boolits.

Its now up to us to start develop sticky worthy threads on our MSR platforms and how to successfully operate cast boolits in them for others to read, provide additional input and perhaps strengthen these threads for other shooters as well.

And if we have a few Mods willing to troll the other subforums for other MSR threads residing in those other locations, perhaps we can even eventually build a knowledge base for others to learn from in a more efficient manner than blindly searching through the page's google search's Boolean input form.

But hey folks! We got a space to start!

Bruce

W.R.Buchanan
12-12-2014, 04:14 PM
If I was looking for info on AR's I would probably go to the Factory Rifle or Military Rifle forums.

I can see the desire to have all one kind of gun in one place however there are more guns than just AR's, so where does it stop?

I really like this forum a lot. I think it is probably the best firearms forum on the net, and with over 30K members here, there is a pool of knowledge on the subject of firearms, of all types, second to none.

Maybe that is because the guys who run the thing have some idea of what they are doing?

Randy