Inlines

[Ajax]

Is it just me or does anyone else not understand how these are considered TRADITIONAL muzzleloaders. I understand they have their purpose but I feel they are more of a modern rifle than a muzzleloader. I am not trying to offend anyone, your preference doesn't matter to me just the nomenclature does.

Andy

[Sasquatch-1]

I understand how they are considered muzzle loaders but do not believe that they meet the true intent of a muzzle loader. I believe that a muzzle loading rifle should have an additional qualification of being a side lock system.

[dondiego]

In line technology is not new.

[CastingFool]

FWIW, the name muzzleloader itself denotes a firearm that is loaded from the muzzle, and says nothing about the ignition system. Therefore, in my thinking, both what we think as traditional muzzleloaders (which use a sidelock for ignition) and inlines are both muzzleloaders. You could say one is typical and the other non-typical.

[brtelec]

Anything that takes this long to reload and gets stuffed from the front is a muzzle loader. Whether or not it seems to fits another persons sense of tradition.

[ihuntbear]

IN-LINES
A plethora of designs for use with the new percussion principle appeared in the early 1800's. The
Swiss genius Pauley invented the paper cap, then invented a percussion muzzleloader in 1808 and
breech-loader in 1812. His 1808 patent was the first to design and patent a muzzleloading in-line action
in which the cock of the sidelock was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring.
His in-line invention was capitalized on by Dreyse, who worked for Pauly between 1808-14 and
who used it as the basis for his 1838 turnbolt design which became the Prussian Needlegun of 1848.
Paul Mauser later used the Dreyse needlegun design as a basis for his tumbolt cartridge rifle of 1868,
first patented in the U.S., but adopted by the German military in 1871.

[C. Latch]

I consider anything that loads from the muzzle to be a muzzleloader and I consider people who obsess over silly stuff like this to be a little weird.

There. Now get over your weirdness.

[waksupi]

Well, they load from the front, so I guess they are muzzle loaders. Just not my cup of tea. Most who shoot them are either looking for the cheapest way to shoot, or were sold on the idea they are less maintenance. Yep, they are cheap, but take more maintenance, and repair.

[johnson1942]

i saw a picture in, of course a book that was not retured to me after borrowing, that showed a muzzle loader from the 1800s that was a type of inline. had a hammer in the back of the barrel and a nipple in back of the barrel. thats a inline. to me its not the gun it is what they shoot.the inline that shoots a cast or paperpatched bullet is in the tradition of a traditional muzzleloader. a muzzle loader is supposed to make you independent. the inline does when you cast for it and they also would work very well for home made black powder. also the 209 primer ignition came out as soon as the shot shell was invented. maybe a nine power modern scope is modern but lets face it a lot of us shooters are the elderly of america.also my son would not muzzle loader hunt with me if i didnt have a inline built for him. he is left eyed and right handed and a inline fits his needs very well. you still only get one shot and the bullet goes down the front so whats not a muzzleloader. i dont own one and and if i build one it will be for fun and long range target. i hunt with a pp sidelock and regular sights but im sure glad that the inline is out their and the cast and ppbullet shooters are useing them to keep it all alive. am i cheating when i use paperpatched bullets. i dont patch with cloth i patch with paper.

[Col4570]

Has it not got something to do with an extended season for Muzzleloading rifles?.

[mooman76]

Has it not got something to do with an extended season for Muzzleloading rifles?.

Yes and also in some cases hunting with less pressure from other (less)hunters. Each state has their own specific rules so it varies from state to state and each person has his own reason.

[johnson1942]

we need two areas on castboolits for muzzle loaders. one for the ultra purist and one for inlines and powder other than real black. no back and forth naysaying. i feel this way, if something isnt a sin against God, do it if you have a mind to. members have told me privately that they dont contribute here for fear of getting ripped. this limits postings to those who it doesnt bother. again lets get a purist section for muzzleshooters and for those who are not. then you will be on the area that you have no conflict with. even up on the swageing section i was told that even dumb a----- can swage pure lead and that spot was for the real swaggers. is the muzzle loading section for the real muzzleloaders? where do the rest of us go then? i guess delete cast boolits and never go on it again.

[starmac]

LOL I shoot left handed, so when I drew a NM muzzleloader elk permit the hunt was on for a left handed sidelock. Every shop owner I talked to tried to get me to go inline, but it wasn't what I wanted.
I have since picked up a couple of scouts, inlines for sure, but for some reason more acceptable to me. This of course is all in my head.
I also prefer lever actions and pumps to bolt actions, again just my prefference. Everyone of us is different, and has different ideas of what is what, but in the end Daniel Boone would probably have had the best most efficient scope mounted inline if it would have been available. lol

[roverboy]

[QUOTE=dondiego;2977761]In line technology is not new.[

Right, there has been inline ignition muzzleloaders for a long time.

[starmac]

I want to add too, that I am not fond of scopes, on Muzzies or levers either for that matter, but my eyes are changing my view of them (literally) The reason I picked up that second scout is too scope it and try the paper patch thing. I guess what I am saying is that even though inlines is not really my cup of tea, if they will keep me and others in the game I can live with it.

[rking22]

I voted who cares because they are actually "muzzle loaders", but don't fit with the tradition and intent of the seasons created. It's not the inline ignition, underhammers are probably actually better untill you get to fully enclosed ingnition for heavy powder loads with conicals. It's the scopeability (new word) that I think appeals to most. In my opinion they came about to sell to the general gun hunter who wanted to hunt the special season with a rifle that looks like his regular rifle , scope and all. For me they are just another modern throwaway plastic piece of marketing hype. Same for plastic sabots, folks are convinced they can't kill a deer without a jacketed bullet. We know better but that dosen't sell "stuff". I had one in 1984, got bored with it in less than a year and went back to sidelocks and flint. Most all my friends shoot them so I'm not opposed, just not interested.

[Maven]

"Do you consider inlines a muzzleloader in the traditional sense?" ...Ajax



I voted "no," even though I own one as well as several "traditional ML's. Although inline ignition isn't new, as has already been mentioned, and they do load from the muzzle, they are nontraditional. Here are some of the typical differences: materials used, e.g., often stainless steel or brushed chrome (?) bbls. + synthetic stocks; drilled & tapped for scopes; fiber optic sights; easily removable breech plugs (a good thing IMO); some use only #209 primers v. #10, #11, or even musket caps; typically have bbls. shorter than 32" and often shorter than 28"; fast twist bbls. are designed more with conicals or jacketed bullets + sabots in mind rather than RB's; can use huge powder charges, e.g., three 50 gr. pellets, in those short bbls.; entirely different firing and safety mechanisms; come with aluminum*, not hickory (or even wooden) ramrods. Also, many express the opinion that inlines are marketed as the latest, gee whiz, high tech way to exploit the muzzle loader season that many states have rather than a link to the past. Did I leave anything out? Btw, I have no dog in this race, but am merely trying to clarify and honestly answer the question posed by Ajax.


*not commercially used until after 1888

[starmac]

My 99 savage is not really what I call a traditional lever gun either, but it's original was on the market in 1895, not really long after the first lever actions.

It is different in the different states, but I am going to scope one for my own reasons. I won't be able to hunt the muzzle loader season with it, but can the general rifle season. Everybody has there own reasons to shoot what they do, and doesn't have to justify it to me.

[waksupi]

I have never seen a modern inline that had any relationship to the spirit of the old originals.

[koehlerrk]

I voted no, mainly due to the powder and projectile that inlines are required to use with their fast twist barrels. Don't like them, but that's me. You can make a similar argument in archery with recurred vs compound bows. Again, I like the traditional approach, but I won't tell someone they can't use something just because I won't.

[Ajax]

I never said you shouldn't use them. I in fact started with one but it didn't ring my bell. I don't care what you use honestly. I just have a problem with calling things what they are. i don't call a shooting bag a possibles bag or haversack. Just a quirk i have if it makes me weird, I take that as a compliment.

Andy

[alrighty]

I voted no as I don't consider them traditional but then again I don't think the Ruger Old Army revolver is very traditional.I have no problem though with people using any legal firearm for hunting or recreation.

[kenyerian]

I use and enjoy both but I don't consider inlines traditional.

[curator]

Many years ago, I purchased a Lindsay .58 caliber single shot (most were two-shot superimposed) musket, a true "inline" made in 1859. Lindsay was ahead of the curve with a 1 in 48 twist that delivered excellent accuracy with .577 diameter minie'-bullets. It had a center hammer and musket-cap sized nipple in the rear of the breech. Not a lot of difference between this "traditional" rifle and the CVA Wolf I bought for $89.95 from a online sports supplier. OK, there is a bit of a difference between a musket cap and #209 shotgun primers (mostly about $10 as RWS & CCI musket caps are hard to find and cost $14 per hundred at the last two reenactment I attended and Chedite shot-shell primers are $3.99 per hundred at the LGS) Muzzle loading rifles have one shot, reloading requires both time and some attention to detail and procedure. How is this different from traditional rifles? In the 1850s, many rifles shared the features we see in modern "inline" guns. My Daniel Wesson .45 target rifle has a 1 in 20 twist barrel and will shoot a 475 grain paper patched (sabot?) .457" boolit into 2" groups at 150 yards. This sure beats some pathetic .357 diameter 158 grain copper jacketed bullet out of a plastic sabot on most north American game.

[mooman76]

I have never seen a modern inline that had any relationship to the spirit of the old originals.

How about the T/C Scout?

[mooman76]

I tried an inline because it was cheap being on clearance. I bought it with nothing but hunting in mind. I didn't care for it so I stopped shooting it even though I still have it. I don't care for them but I figure to each his own.

[waksupi]

I was rather amazed, but this is the only image that came up for antique inline muzzleloaders.

http://www.peashooter85.com/post/41752627494/the-first-inline-muzzleloader-made-by-a-new

http://40.media.tumblr.com/3a2fec778e8877e43802145af4ba4989/tumblr_mhd8gdZOlS1rwjpnyo2_500.png

[starmac]

Now that is a sweet inline.

[Whiterabbit]

welcome to the future of primitive hunting:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9CYEYrF46yY/U5nuNQQyu5I/AAAAAAAABzE/xqqp0gv0XxI/s1600/Summit+Titan+1+-+3.jpg

[jakec]

i bought a nice stainless inline from a buddy that needed some money. had a nice scope and all. i thought i would use it to get to hunt an extra few weeks but i just didnt like it. it shot great though. i traded it to a guy for a hawken style .50.

[dondiego]

I voted "Yes" because they ARE muzzleloaders but certainly bear no resemblance to any traditional rifles. There is nothing like the look, feel, or handling and balance of a well made flintlock and they can do wonderful things when wielded by an experienced user. I own over 20 traditional types, mostly percussion sidelocks but also 2 flinters and 2 underhammers. I recently got a CVA Wolf for free. Once I figured it out, I was able to shoot some good groups with it and TC Maxiballs, no sabots. It has a good trigger and my eyes liked the scope! I don't hate it and am not embarrassed to own it. My son will use it for the Mich. ML season if needed.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I voted who cares , lets go burn some powder

[OverMax]

Makes no difference to me. Both are loaded at their muzzle.
In this State scoping of B/P rifles is (not) allowed for hunting purposes. {no advantage or disadvantage for all B/P hunters having that State Restriction imposed.} Which brand or model of B/P rifle chosen by each hunting resident has more to do with personal choice thank Goodness. Those who feel this State has placed a unfair Restriction on them in regards to scope usage. Sorry I cannot sympathize. But will politely suggest their leaving this State to B/P hunt another that does accommodate their need.

[shredder]

If it loads from the front end you can use it here in muzzleloader season. I for one do not want to get caught up in who is more "correct". In line ignition is nothing new, and neither is black powder. Modern manufacturing does not take away the thrill for me.

[starmac]

The rules/laws vary from state to state. Here is no scopes, at one time Co was no scopes, no pellets, and I believe no sabots, but I could be wrong about the sabots. I think most states allow whatever during the general rifle season, except some have a minimum cal requirement.

Here we have to have a muzzleloader certificate (coarse required) in order to hunt the special muzzle loader hunts, but it is not required if using a muzzle loader in the general hunt, go figure. lol

[451whitworth]

Makes no difference to me. Both are loaded at their muzzle.
In this State scoping of B/P rifles is (not) allowed for hunting purposes. {no advantage or disadvantage for all B/P hunters having that State Restriction imposed.} Which brand or model of B/P rifle chosen by each hunting resident has more to do with personal choice thank Goodness. Those who feel this State has placed a unfair Restriction on them in regards to scope usage. Sorry I cannot sympathize. But will politely suggest their leaving this State to B/P hunt another that does accommodate their need.
And that is the great equallizer. Without the scope an inline has no advantage over a trad. style rifle. Both are limited to the iron sight shooting ability of the user. My screen name indicates my preference.

[grullaguy]

I voted no on the grounds that stainless steel, scoped and wrapped in plastic does not meet my own definition of "traditional". That said, I am actively looking for an inexpensive inline to test as a platform for heavy paper patched bullets.

Now ask me about primitive weapons seasons. When we had one here, I disliked seeing inlines in the woods as there is nothing primitive about them other than the loading. These days there is no longer a special season here for muzzleloaders and I feel it has leveled the playing field. I more often see traditional rifles in the woods as the people who were hoping on cashing in on an extended season have gone back to their modern center fires. The people hunting with traditional muzzle loading guns are hunting for the challenge and the historical feel of the experience.

[fouronesix]

Really pretty simple answering the OP/poll wording. Most modern inlines bear no resemblance to traditional MLs. Most regs and laws for set-aside ML seasons were originally enacted based on "traditional" muzzleloaders- that were generally primitive in nature. No more complicated than that.

Also in the spirit of what goes around comes around and what's good for the goose is good for the gander--- I'd vote that scoped, tricked-out crossbows, including pneumatic and BP or smokeless powder fired "crossbows", be allowed in archery only seasons across the board. :)

Additionally, true to the same "spirit", I'd vote that mechanical-hold-at-full-draw devices for compounds, recurves and long bows be allowed in archery only seasons across the board. :)

Matter of fact I'd vote that ANYTHING one wishes to call any hunting implement be allowed in whatever set aside season the user chooses. :)

[freebullet]

All I've seen require loading from the muzzle, don't use cartridges, and are not as capable as a modern cf rifle. Extended range with better accuracy, what's not to like?

Is a traditional ml that was made last week really traditional? It wasn't made with traditional metals, tools, & process. I'd rather take a stainless in line out in rain sleet & snow than a "traditional" muzzleloader.

Met a guy on some public ground a few years back. He was using a long bow I was using a compound. As I walked back to the parking area with him I listened to him talk about traditional this & traditional that. I complimented his bow as it was a nice one. When we reached the parking lot he walked over to a car. I couldn't resist telling him his car didn't match up with all the tradition he preached about, I told him I figured he would have had a horse tied up where his car was, or that he walked there because that is more traditional. Traditionally I wouldn't care, but when folks try to force their tradition on me, I will speak up.

I like all weapons, but don't want to be forced to use what a few think I should.

[idahoron]

I voted no. Inlines are not traditional in the strict meaning of the word. But there are a lot of people that feel that my Hot Rods are an abomination and not traditional either.

[Squeeze]

120081120082Bohemian in-line flintlock action by Stanislaus Paczelt, 1738. All flintlock parts are contained within the enclosed action behind the barrel. The touch-hole fires through the breech plug in classic in-line fashion.


120083

German double barreled flintlock in-line gun in the Munich National Museum.


That horse has been beaten to mush

[starmac]

WOW and a flinter too.

[Squeeze]

120085The Dreyse needle gun of 1848. It was so advanced that any soldier who lost one paid with his life for his carelessness


heres an inline that anyone has to admit is just Beautiful http://www.swinglock.net/traditional.html

[rking22]

That swinglock is nice, and within the spirit of things. Now that 308 smokeless at 3000fps is exactly what I don't feel is within the spirit. It is a rule beater pure and simple, intended to give all the (percieved) advantages of a M70 300Win Mag but legal in the special muzzle loader seasons of many states. Interesting from an engineering perspective but the whole intent is to make it "easier" for the hunter. Lots of us like the challenge of getting the most out of the more primitive hunting tools. The objection traditional archers have with crossbows is the exact "selling point", buy it , sight it in and go shoot a deer. If I do not shoot my longbow regularly and train hard, I do not perform well enough to hunt. Having not shot a compound in over 10 years, I put 3 arrows in a row touching at 20 yards with a friends bow. draw length too short and all. I could have moved the sight shot 3 more arrows and gone hunting confidently with 2 to 3 times the max ethical range as my long bow. And I'm sure everyone knows it's way easier to get within 45 yards of a deer than 15 yards, especially on the ground! I feel the issue many have with "hi tech premitive " is just that ,sold as an easy way to short cut the (enjoyable) work to be competent with primitive equipment. I think the marketing people are cheating lots of people out of the real experience. Folks can hunt with whatever they want ,far as I care, just agravating to see the advertizing/marketing approach of "buy this and you don't have to put in the effort". Not the buyers /users that bother me, it's the companies that push it. It's all about "selling stuff", not about the experience anymore. Pretty Swing lock muzzleloader, I won't buy from them because of the rest of their product line. Just me , and as I said, as long as folks are hunting, I don't care what they chose to use.

[starmac]

Well that works both ways, if a company doesn't push their products, they cease to be a company.

Truth be told at the ranges most deer are shot in a big part of the country, a 300 mag actually doesn't have an advantage over a traditional sidelock.

[snoopy]

I voted no, because I think the idea of powder pellets is silly, and scopes on muzzies just make them a modern hi power rifle. Just my opinion ,nothing more, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Squeeze]

I hunt bow with both recurve and compound. and my front stuffer collection runs the gamut from Swinglock, and a few smokeless capable customs that I can confidently ring gongs at 600+ with,( I shoot black subs much more than smokeless in most, as my in state hunting is black only) right on down to several sidelocks. All have harvested game. I enjoy it all, and will use whatever strikes my fancy for that particular day. Just like the signature above, We dont need assault rifles ( modern inline muzzleloaders) But I in no way favor any additional rules or regulations for hunting/shooting sports whatsoever. As of now, I choose not to use a crossbow, BUT I also know (If I make it far enough) there will probably come a day I will, If it enables me to stay afield a while longer. Granted, apples and oranges, but each has its place. And you can be sure, If a modern inline was available to Daniel boone, Jeremiah Johnson, and the like, they surely would have carried one

[newton]

I voted Yes. Because that's my opinion. What is traditional?

tra·di·tion·al
trəˈdiSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: traditional


existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established.
"the traditional festivities of the church year"


synonyms:

long-established (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+long-established&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CB8Q_SowAA), customary (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+customary&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCAQ_SowAA), time-honored (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+time-honored&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCEQ_SowAA), established (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+established&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCIQ_SowAA), classic (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+classic&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCMQ_SowAA), accustomed (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+accustomed&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCQQ_SowAA), standard (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+standard&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA), regular (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+regular&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCYQ_SowAA), normal (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+normal&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCcQ_SowAA), conventional (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+conventional&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCgQ_SowAA), usual (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+usual&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCkQ_SowAA), orthodox (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+orthodox&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCoQ_SowAA), habitual (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+habitual&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCsQ_SowAA), set (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+set&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CCwQ_SowAA), fixed (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+fixed&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CC0Q_SowAA), routine (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+routine&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CC4Q_SowAA), ritual (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+ritual&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CC8Q_SowAA); Moreold (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+old&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CDEQ_SowAA), age-old (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+age-old&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CDIQ_SowAA), ancestral (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+ancestral&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CDMQ_SowAA)
"traditional Christmas fare"


handed-down (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+handed-down&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CDQQ_SowAA), folk (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+folk&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CDUQ_SowAA), unwritten (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+unwritten&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CDYQ_SowAA), oral (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1829&bih=938&q=define+oral&sa=X&ei=MZRPVLjpBOHB8QGAsYGgDA&ved=0CDcQ_SowAA)
"traditional beliefs"






produced, done, or used in accordance with tradition.
"a traditional fish soup"
habitually done, used, or found.
"the traditional drinks in the clubhouse"

[newton]

According to the definition, the inline's are traditional now. Sure, they may not have the long running aspect that sidelocks have, but if you are talking about only longvevity of a particular thing as defining its "traditional" status, then you have to throw out anything but flintlocks. Those are the ones that have been around the longest.

This is a dead horse that is beaten to mush. Its one of those things I despise because all it does is put hunters against other hunters.

Inline's are still loaded from the muzzle. There is no way to not call them a muzzleloader. They do not have anymore of an advantage over other muzzleloaders except the ability to be scoped. But hey, there are ways to scope even flintlocks, so in that sense they are equal. Its just what a person wants. The gun itself does not have any more advantage over any other gun. Now, if you were to put robotics into them, and they were able to go hunting without the aid of a human, then they would have an advantage.....

I started with a sidelock. I was foolish, and did not keep it clean. I was young also, and afraid(don't know why now) that it has rusted too bad to use. So I tried taking out the breech to look at the barrel closer. I ended up ruining that gun needless to say. Years later, I got a cheap inline that had a sliding bolt ignition. It was the hardest thing in the world to clean. I despised cleaning it and traded it off. I then got quite a few sidelocks.

Love the sidelocks. Very easy to clean and take care of. My eyes are fine and I can shoot very well with them. Then I had some misshaps with a few of them and decided I wanted another inline. So I bought a "newer" one. It is even easier to clean than my sidelocks which I truly thought would have been impossible. But it is.

I'll keep my sidelocks, and I'll keep my iniline. And one day, I am sure I'll have a flinter to play with. But inlines have been around long enough, and used enough, to say that they are traditional in every sense of the word because they are loaded from the muzzle. There is no way to get around that. That's the key. When you have to stop after one shot, and put something into the end of the barrel, ram it down, and then put something for ignition onto it - it creates a challenge.

Sidelocks have some advantages over the other two guns, flintlocks also have theirs, and likewise so do the inlines. It just depends on what advantages you prefer to use over the others. How the powder gets ignited is just one little aspect that has gotten too much attention.

[Whiterabbit]

How the powder gets ignited is just one little aspect that has gotten too much attention.

For the record, my objection is that they are designed to circumvent the spirit of primitive hunting laws by bluring the lines between muzzleloader and high powered rifle. Same with 35 cal and up single shots competing for the same space. all in an over-the-counter package that is just too easy to buy into. It would be like allowing only sidelock round ball shooters to hunt during archery season. Archers might get upset.

At the range or during rifle season, knock yourself out. I've carried the handi-rifle inline I used to own during rifle general before. Complete with 120 grains of powder behind a sabot whizzbang conical.

[newton]

For the record, my objection is that they are designed to circumvent the spirit of primitive hunting laws by bluring the lines between muzzleloader and high powered rifle. Same with 35 cal and up single shots competing for the same space. all in an over-the-counter package that is just too easy to buy into. It would be like allowing only sidelock round ball shooters to hunt during archery season. Archers might get upset.

At the range or during rifle season, knock yourself out. I've carried the handi-rifle inline I used to own during rifle general before. Complete with 120 grains of powder behind a sabot whizzbang conical.

I don't hold anything against people who hold dear to what they feel is traditional. But honestly, many times when we hold tight to something we are blinded by it.

Inline muzzleloaders cannot blur hunting laws one bit. The season/spirit was set up for shooting a gun which you had to load from the muzzle. That is what makes hunting a challenge. All the inlines do is have a different ignition system, and look different. That's it. There is nothing different about them. A RB shooter, even a flinter, can load his rifle just as fast as an inline. Sometimes, it is even easier to load a RB gun.

Inlines have nothing in common with centerfire rifles except for their look. Just because the hammer is "inline" with the barrel does not mean anything. It would be like saying a shotgun is like a rifle. They are not. They have different names for a reason. "Inline" simply refers to the placement of the source of ignition. They are as much a muzzleloader as any other gun you have to load from the muzzle.

I would argue against, even though it would be nice(lol), if my state allowed the centerfire "old time" rifles to be used during the muzzleloader season. They in fact have a distinct advantage as they are loaded from the breech. But there is no comparison between a inline muzzleloader/sidelock muzzleloader and a sidelock roundball shooting gun/archery shooting arrows.

If you are specifically talking about the use of breech loading guns during muzzleloading seasons, then yes that would be a good comparison because it is like allowing a gun during a season that was meant for only archery equipment.

What I do not understand is why people cannot see that a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader. There are no advantages via an ignition system when you are talking about strictly hunting wild game. The challenge is that a muzzleloader hunter generally has one shot to make it count, because subsequent shots take much more effort than breech loading rifles. That's the challenge. The challenge of a muzzleloader does not come from where I am going to put my ignition source.... Again, if that was the case then only flintlocks should be considered "true" traditional muzzleloaders and anything else, including sidelocks, should be considered modern.

Funny thing is I watched a video of a guy in pensivlania shooing a NICE flintlock rifle.....using saboted "non toxic" bullets. That was a laugh.

I think that is what people have the most problem with. Round balls versus other forms of projectiles. They blame the inline for the use of the "modern projectiles" but really all they are is the same thing as a round ball, just shaped different with different type of patching. Still has to be loaded from the muzzle.........

[Whiterabbit]

They blame the inline for the use of the "modern projectiles" but really all they are is the same thing as a round ball, just shaped different with different type of patching. Still has to be loaded from the muzzle.........

This makes no sense to me. A 140 grain berger 6.5 is the same as a 140 grain round ball. Just shaped different with a different type of patching.

[newton]

This makes no sense to me. A 140 grain berger 6.5 is the same as a 140 grain round ball. Just shaped different with a different type of patching.

Does one kill a deer deader than the other? Does one have some more of a power over another? Is the Berger heat seeking or able to jump around trees?

Yes, they are the same. They are both called projectiles. And that's all they are.

[Whiterabbit]

If I really and truly posit that that is true, then I have to withdraw my objection. There is no purpose to shotgun-only zones, archery season, and primitive weapons season. No need to separate any of them, because every sporting arm choice will as you say, kill dead. No advantage or disadvantage. So, no need to give archery shooters or muzzleloaders a more choice season, nor limit anyone to slug guns ever. Everyone gets lumped together in general rifle. To do otherwise would frankly be favoritism.

[starmac]

It pretty much is favoritism. We have a 350 mile corridor that is archery only, The caribou likes it. Modern slug guns are accurate at greater yardage than most deer is killed as is any muzzies built.

[451whitworth]

I don't hold anything against people who hold dear to what they feel is traditional. But honestly, many times when we hold tight to something we are blinded by it.

Inline muzzleloaders cannot blur hunting laws one bit. The season/spirit was set up for shooting a gun which you had to load from the muzzle.

you left out a few things about the season/spirit. it was set up for shooting a gun which loads from the muzzle
and had a breech/ignition system exposed to the elements
and was aimed with iron sights
and had limited range using round balls or minie/maxi bullets
These were the points that muzzleloading organizations used in the 1970's to sell game dept.'s on the idea of a seperate season. The harvest, it was said, because of the weapon's limitations was to be so low as not to effect still recovering game populations. Inlines were kinda slow to catch on until the whitetail deer population explosion in the '90's and game dept.'s liberalized the bag limit. That's when a lot of the hunters who already used a ML traded in their side hammer gun for the inline and new ML'er hunters bought their first gun (an inline).

[starmac]

Me thinks they set the seasons up to give hunters something to bicker about, aaaaaaaand it's working.

[Bigslug]

I totally get why guys are into the traditional guns. We all get a history bug about something at some point, be it Garands, 1911's, Lugers, or charcoal-burners from anywhere in their 700-800-ish year development. If someone wants to do it like Dan'l Boone, I absolutely understand where they're coming from.

On the other hand, two years ago, I shelved my blued/wood hunting rifle in favor of a Remington 700 XCRII that is a synthetic-stocked, stainless rifle with a coating on the metal to make it EVEN MORE stainless. The logic behind this is that I want to HUNT, not baby my equipment. For a lot of folks, muzzleloading is simply another season to hunt, not reconnect with someone who's been dead for 250 years, and they don't want to deal with all the baggage a traditional frontstuffer and real black brings to the party. Time being the most valuable commodity of all, I totally understand these folks as well.

But do I consider their inlines "traditional"? Nope. I figure any muzzleloader that hit the market after about 1865 can't claim to be. But I don't think they should be banned from the ML season because they don't look like antiques.

[newton]

If I really and truly posit that that is true, then I have to withdraw my objection. There is no purpose to shotgun-only zones, archery season, and primitive weapons season. No need to separate any of them, because every sporting arm choice will as you say, kill dead. No advantage or disadvantage. So, no need to give archery shooters or muzzleloaders a more choice season, nor limit anyone to slug guns ever. Everyone gets lumped together in general rifle. To do otherwise would frankly be favoritism.

I actually think that this is the way it should be. Give out a certain amount of liscenses for the amount of population/herd reduction, and let the person decide how they want to hunt it. But that's a different topic. Lol

[newton]

you left out a few things about the season/spirit. it was set up for shooting a gun which loads from the muzzle
and had a breech/ignition system exposed to the elements
and was aimed with iron sights
and had limited range using round balls or minie/maxi bullets
These were the points that muzzleloading organizations used in the 1970's to sell game dept.'s on the idea of a seperate season. The harvest, it was said, because of the weapon's limitations was to be so low as not to effect still recovering game populations. Inlines were kinda slow to catch on until the whitetail deer population explosion in the '90's and game dept.'s liberalized the bag limit. That's when a lot of the hunters who already used a ML traded in their side hammer gun for the inline and new ML'er hunters bought their first gun (an inline).

Yes, I left out the open ignition. But that's a mute point. Most smart sidelock owners figured out that a leather wrap of some sort would protect their hunting gear. Besides, it only makes a difference in certain weather instances. Which, depending on where you live, only makes up a portion of the season. Therefore, it comes back to what separates a breech loader from a muzzleloader.

Iron on sights could be argued, but I would shoot an inline with them and know of several people who do. Which brings us back to the same point. Sidelocks, and even flintlocks, can have optics mounted.

And which iron sights should be used? Adjustable? Fixed? One may hold an advantage over the other. Even breech loading guns have iron sights..... Hmmmmm..... So what is it that separates breech loaders from muzzleloades?

[newton]

Inlines have the same "range" as round ball/maxi ball guns. Just depends on the guy shooting the gun and the quality of the gun itself. Not how the powder is ignited.

[newton]

Me thinks they set the seasons up to give hunters something to bicker about, aaaaaaaand it's working.

Good point. But I think it is more than that. You know it is too. It was to give people a semi disadvantage over being able to "pop" another round on the gun in case the first one missed.

Personally, for the sake of the deer, I'm glade newer technology was invinted and optics are allowed. I might not personally need them, but I bet they have made a difference in wounded versus recovered deer.

Sure, some would not want to hassle with non inline guns, but there are more than you think that would hunt with them if they decided to do away with them. Then what? Do people think that all the inline shooters would just quit? No, they would get a sidelock and hunt. And they would still take the same shots as they did before.

But, again, no one wants to dispute the fact that flintlocks are the original guns of choice. So why not just allow them? And why allow rifled guns? Smooth bores came first.

So yes, you are correct in one point star, it is something people like to argue about for sure. I simply say to each his own and just make it what it's called - muzzle loading guns only. Seems simple. Since "traditional" guns started that way. Even though there were a variety of different kinds of setups long before TC and the like came on the scene producing their guns....

[starmac]

I can understand some of the thinking that it should be limited to traditional sidelocks only, as it just seems that if you are going to use a muzzle loader it should look like a muzzle loader. Traditionalist guys have gotten laws past in several states, against sabots, pellets, scopes and so on, as far as I know not against inlines.
I think it is Missouri that now allows center fire pistols during the muzzle loader season. I think some states have done away with the seperate season all together.
Some self professed big wig tried getting a petition up and a lawsuit going against the state here to force them to allow the use of scopes. The way I understand it they came close to getting the season done completely away with.

We have to get certified in muzzle loaders to hunt the special hunts here anyway, and I am just hard headed enough to refuse to do so, so even if I use my sidelock, it will be in the general rifle season, which is fine by me.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i vote yes do they look like my Hawken no but they load the same

[Squeeze]

Do you show up at the rendezvous in a modern car/truck? or a horse and buggy? Does your house have electricity and indoor plumbing? Or is it a matter of I like this, so no other option should be available to anyone else, Technology and design improvements be damned. Did the mountain men of the 18-19'th century say, those hawkins are pure blasphemy! Im going to carry a blunderbuss, just like the laws meant us to. In the last century, we have gone from first auto, to man on the moon, and modern phones can make all the computations of the computer that watched over the first lunar mission, that took up about 2 rooms. The first man to fly was still alive when man first stepped foot on the moon. When someone "finds religion" suddenly everyone around him must think the same also. You cant be THAT, you must be THIS, like ME. Hey, do whatever makes you happy, just dont force it on me also. Choices and free enterprise competition make for good commerce, and healthy economy. Many rulers have tried ways of controlling total equality on their minions, As of yet, none have lasted long. The cultures may remain, but individuality, and evolution cannot be stopped.

[newton]

But do I consider their inlines "traditional"? Nope. I figure any muzzleloader that hit the market after about 1865 can't claim to be. But I don't think they should be banned from the ML season because they don't look like antiques.

This is what I don't understand. Maybe its just me, but I cannot see how anyone can put a date on it.

I guess that if the season was supposed to be called "Sidelock Season" then we could put a qualification on the look and action of the gun. But because its called traditional or muzzleloader, then you cannot stick a particular look to a gun. All you can do is put a specific type of weapon it is. And since flintlocks and sidelocks have two very different types of actions, and looks, then you have to put a specific on something. So, you put it on what matters the most. How it is loaded.

But I can see that it will never matter to those who view their particular gun as the most "traditional" weapon. Its just the way it is. It does do good in a way because it keeps those types of firearms around. We should never forget the lineage of how we came to what we have today.

However, that's just it. When we start looking down on other guns as not being "qualified" in the same sense as other guns, we are only kicking ourselves in the rear.

Inlines do not look like older guns. But neither do a lot of other sidelocks and flintlocks being used today. Do you kick out sidelocks and flintlocks that do not look like older guns? Inlines are traditional in the sense of their operation. How a gun looks, does not effect how they operate. Inlines operate the same as some of the most oldest guns there were - you put powder into the barrel from the front, you push a bullet down the barrel from the front, and you put some type of ignition source onto the rear - Flintlocks, Sidelocks, and Inlines all operate the same way.

[45-70bpcr]

With the sealed breech, almost absolute ignition, synthetic mossy oak stock, with stainless barrel, and illuminated BDC reticle scope, white pellets of some sort and plastic/copper sabots that shoot clover leaf 100 yd. groups no way can I call them traditional. I think they have their place and add single shot challenge during regular firearms season but not in the "traditional" seasons. For now PA still has the after Christmas flintlock only which I appreciate. So I voted No

[Anonym]

I voted "no" as well, even though I embrace both. For me, the "traditional sense" lends to nostalgia and a more primitive technology. I have sidelocks that shoot PRB (or conicals) with open sights and wooden stocks. They are not "Magnum" muzzleloaders, do not have sealed breaches, use shotgun primers, or plastic sabots around jacketed bullets. To me, that's "traditional", even though they are current manufacture. I enjoy the challenge and nostalgia of hunting with these, and they are my weapon of choice, even during firearm season.

I also own a stainless steel 209x50 Encore that will shoot 1" groups at 200 yards if I do my part. Yes, it is a "muzzleloader" as it is loaded from the muzzle, but it can take a "magnum" powder charge (even though I choose not to load above traditional charges), has a sealed breach, and uses a 209 shotgun primer for ignition. I also have a scope rail on it, even though I currently don't have it outfitted with a scope. This is what I choose to hunt with when weather is not so favorable - not because I don't appreciate the challenge of hunting with a traditional muzzleloader, but because I value the ethics of the harvest as well as the meat in the freezer.

To me, I like the fact that seasons are geared to allow hunters to challenge themselves without being at a "disadvantage" to other hunters. Regardless of which season it is, I'm a single-shot hunter because I enjoy the challenge. It is my choice to do so. But I also appreciate the fact that I can bow hunt when the deer aren't being shot at with firearms, which gives me more of an opportunity to succeed. There is a similar argument for muzzleloaders being separated from other firearms.

Sure, there are arguments as to whether crossbows or compound bows should be allowed with recurve/long bow hunters the same as whether or not inlines should be allowed with "traditional" muzzleloaders. In my state, we don't allow rifle hunting without restrictions on cartridge size and bullet diameter, but a firearm is a firearm whether it's a muzzloader, shotgun, rifle, single shot, or semi-automatic. Each part of the season is to cater to specific groups, and each group can choose the challenges they wish to pursue during each portion. It's not worth arguing about.

So no, to me the current manufacture of the "inline" design is not a muzzleloader in the "traditional sense".

[newton]

Do people view centerfire rifles in two different classes? Traditional and not traditional? Just curious. It made me think, does one guy see a 30-30 as a "traditional" centerfire rifle, and look at a 7mm Mag as a "modern" centerfire rifle?

[451whitworth]

I can understand some of the thinking that it should be limited to traditional sidelocks only, as it just seems that if you are going to use a muzzle loader it should look like a muzzle loader. Traditionalist guys have gotten laws past in several states, against sabots, pellets, scopes and so on, as far as I know not against inlines.
I think it is Missouri that now allows center fire pistols during the muzzle loader season. I think some states have done away with the seperate season all together.
Some self professed big wig tried getting a petition up and a lawsuit going against the state here to force them to allow the use of scopes. The way I understand it they came close to getting the season done completely away with.

We have to get certified in muzzle loaders to hunt the special hunts here anyway, and I am just hard headed enough to refuse to do so, so even if I use my sidelock, it will be in the general rifle season, which is fine by me.

Yes, Missouri no longer has a muzzleloader season. It's now called "alternative methods season" open to crossbows, ML'ers, centerfire handguns, spears, burmese tiger traps, etc. I personally have no problem with inlines, sabots, scopes in ML season. Their inclusion doesn't keep me from getting the game. But when anyone claims they offer no advantage, the same way those who push crossbow inclusion in archery season claim "it's the same thing", I think to myself, "don't pee down down my back and tell me it's raining".

[johnson1942]

i think a debate like this would make sense if their was a limited supply of deer out their. their isnt. their are a over abundace of deer most every where. even here. alot of deer died here last year of blue tongue and waisting sickness here in the midwest. . some how the deer here had a explosion of babies this summer and now i see as they are bunching up more than their ever was. in all the cities of n.dak and s.dak and nebraska their is a deer problem in their cities. they are even allowing qualified teens to shoot them with bow and arrow in some of these cities. again if we discourage inlines, then the deer will even be a bigger problem. i like side locks and thats what i build and shoot. what i like about inlines is the challange to modify what you do with them and become independent of the muzzleloader ammo companys and their high priced ammo. you can shoot loose powder in a inline. you can shoot a grease groove castbollit of a cast or swaged paperpatch bullet that you make your self. you can even make your own powder for it. you can even build your own custom inline like some and i do for the sidelocks. you can become independent of many things with a inline as you can with a side lock. it is a tool for independence as a sidelock is. 209 primers are still for me easy to get, they make me independent of haveing to look for the number 11/s.i have one very very traditional .50 cal side lock. it would fit well at a rondezvous or in a movie set of the middle 1800/s. except it is like a plain old car with a full blown hot rod engine under the hood. it has a shallow groove 1/28 twist barrel on it, 36 inches long. its loads very fast and easy and drives tacks with a 535 grain paperpatch bullet. its my hunting gun this dec for deer. we all live where their most likely is too many deer. we all want to be more independent, and we all want to get the most out of what we shoot. and if some one buys a inline just for the range and target shooting, then that person isnt infringeing on anybodys deer hunting. lets encourage each other and share information and have fun. two or more thinking brains are better than one in getting these guns to shoot well.

[Whiterabbit]

There is NOT an overabundance of deer where I live. If newton had his way, I will tell you what happens. You end up in a situation where hunting pressure makes game so wary that everyone becomes a long range hunter and brags of shooting their game from 500 yards away. Unless you have your own private ranch land (ie: I got mine, now they can't get theirs) you are effectively pushed out of the game unless you can hit a cantaloupe at 500 yards on the first shot. That's a tall order for a muzzleloader or archer.

If you live in a state that is overrun by deer, well, maybe you don't need the special seasons. Or maybe extend rifle. I don't have the answer for you. But I live in a state where less than 10% of the take happens on public lands. There is a reason for that.

Every other range trip these days I talk to someone sighting in a 338 lapua or 300 winmag they intend to hunt with. Carrying barrels of absurd diameter owned by individuals who get upset when they shoot over .5" at 100 yards. They have the disposable income to put lots of pressure on local populations, and there are not just handfulls of these people here.

[Powder Burn]

I choose all the above. It is a muzzleloader. It is not "traditional" (relative term), i.e. match lock, flintlock, side lock for ignition purposes. Who cares would also apply. I shoot everything from .58 Springfields to .45 flint locks to 50 cal inlines. I now hunt exclusively with inlines primarily do to my failing eyesight and they beat the heck out of shotgun slugs and allow me to customize my loads/boolets. Feel the same about bow hunting: started with long bow, then recurve, then compound and now I'm considering crossbow. I enjoy every aspect of deer hunting and I do not judge people on their hunting/shooting methods. It's all good but I can understand how some folks feel moving away from more primitive designs. Some of these responses are a riot to read and good points made on both sides of the fence. Keep your powder dry and blades sharp.

[starmac]

White rabbit, what state is it that is running short on deer??

I am not sure what you mean by people with disposable incomes putting lots of pressure on deer. The deer have never realised I was a poorboy. lol
I guess a disposable income here would help, as I would have to travel several hundred miles and take a boat ride to get to where there are deer, I just don't hunt them. lol

[Elkins45]

I have never seen a modern inline that had any relationship to the spirit of the old originals.

We must have a different understanding of the spirit of the originals because I think it was to build the best and most reliable rifle that current scientific knowledge and manufacturing technology could produce. It just so happens that the early state of technology wasn't all that great as compared to today.

Do you really think a hunter born in the 1700's would have turned up his nose at an optically sighted rifle with a reliable ignition system? I sincerely doubt it, and I also doubt that his friends would have ribbed him about his choice of weapon--I doubt there were many of his buddies at the colonial bar saying "A real man doesn't need a fancy gun, he can kill a deer with a stick."

My Savage 10MLII loads from the muzzle, so it's a muzzleloader. One shot, that's all, and it's not really any more accurate or powerful for any practical purpose than is my cap lock T/C Renegade. But the Savage doesn't require me to shoot it empty then take it apart and pour hot water down the barrel every evening after returning home. I used to hunt with the Renegade and had success. Now I hunt with the Savage and have success. I just have less cleaning to do. Both take just as much work to load.

We don't have a primitive hunting season in Kentucky. We have a muzzleloading season. Primitive is a relative term anyway: compared to an atlatl a matchlock rifle is high tech indeed.

FWIW I voted 'who cares'--I'm just on my lunch break and felt like responding. I really think it's one of those silly things we argue about because some people just need something to feel superior about.

[newton]

There is NOT an overabundance of deer where I live. If newton had his way, I will tell you what happens. You end up in a situation where hunting pressure makes game so wary that everyone becomes a long range hunter and brags of shooting their game from 500 yards away. Unless you have your own private ranch land (ie: I got mine, now they can't get theirs) you are effectively pushed out of the game unless you can hit a cantaloupe at 500 yards on the first shot. That's a tall order for a muzzleloader or archer.

If you live in a state that is overrun by deer, well, maybe you don't need the special seasons. Or maybe extend rifle. I don't have the answer for you. But I live in a state where less than 10% of the take happens on public lands. There is a reason for that.

Every other range trip these days I talk to someone sighting in a 338 lapua or 300 winmag they intend to hunt with. Carrying barrels of absurd diameter owned by individuals who get upset when they shoot over .5" at 100 yards. They have the disposable income to put lots of pressure on local populations, and there are not just handfulls of these people here.

That's a harsh statement. I did not find where "my way" was to eliminate the deer around places. We are talking about what is "traditional" and what is not. I simply argue that a muzzleloader....well....is a gun that is loaded from the muzzle. "Tradition" is simply a mans view of things. One person looks at something and says that's tradition, but it might not be the next guys tradition.

So I guess, it boils down to the "I have more of a right to hunt than you do" mentality huh? So we should have a season only for those who use homemade bows, then long bows, then compounds, then crossbows, then smoothbore muskets, then matchlocks, then flintlocks, then sidelocks, then older rifles, then newer rifles, then the newest rifles.....

Come on. This is ridiculous. A muzzleloader, no matter what its mode of operation, has just as much accuracy and distance potential as the next muzzleloader. Just because you cannot shoot one as well as the next, or that one guy makes his easier to shoot, does not make it better or worse. Just makes it the way they want it. And it dang sure does not mean the deer are going to be wipped out.

That's like saying we should all turn our guns into the government so that we will stop all the crime that takes place. Duh......

Putting a scope on a gun does not make it more accurate. It simply makes the person shooting better able to see the target. Hmmmm........ Yea, I guess that would be a bad thing when it comes to harvesting game huh......NOT.

[starmac]

Now I have a real thinker here. My inlines have wood stocks, blued barrels, use #11 caps and can't even be converted over to the 209's like a sidelock can. They have iron sites that are no better than my sidelock, actually because of the shorter barrel, not as good. They use the same powder, (matter of choice) as my sidelock. It is short barrel, oddball twist, and takes more work to find what it shoots compared to the sidelock. It takes a little more work, and an allen wrench and a screwdriver to properly clean it. You have to use a ramrod to load it and only from the muzzle.

I wonder if it is a real muzzle loader???

[newton]

We don't have a primitive hunting season in Kentucky. We have a muzzleloading season. Primitive is a relative term anyway: compared to an atlatl a matchlock rifle is high tech indeed.

FWIW I voted 'who cares'--I'm just on my lunch break and felt like responding. I really think it's one of those silly things we argue about because some people just need something to feel superior about.

I think you hit the nail on the head as to why people like to bring this kind of topic up.

Yes, I have killed deer with my sidelock. They died the same way and got ate the same way the deer I shoot with my inline do.

But I still have X amount of deer that my local game and fish say that I can take. I stay within that and trust they are managing the deer well. Our season is only so long. If I do not take a deer with my muzzleloader, then I do with archery, or I do with rifle.

To me, its not just about what I am carrying in my hands. Its the whole hunt, and harvest.

[newton]

Now I have a real thinker here. My inlines have wood stocks, blued barrels, use #11 caps and can't even be converted over to the 209's like a sidelock can. They have iron sites that are no better than my sidelock, actually because of the shorter barrel, not as good. They use the same powder, (matter of choice) as my sidelock. It is short barrel, oddball twist, and takes more work to find what it shoots compared to the sidelock. It takes a little more work, and an allen wrench and a screwdriver to properly clean it. You have to use a ramrod to load it and only from the muzzle.

I wonder if it is a real muzzle loader???

Its a real muzzleloader, but according to the original question is it traditional? I would say its traditional because of the method for which it has to be loaded. That's what separates gun "species" for lack of a better term. It might not be traditional "looking", but the "look" of sidelocks we have today are only what we consider traditional looking because of the mass volume they were produced in the last 100 years, because they were the easiest....lol....ones to make. It does NOT mean that they look the same as the old rifles that were used for ages before that. In fact, if you were to go to a historical rifle museum you would find old guns that looked pretty strange indeed. Sure, the sidelocks have a lot in common with the guns of years gone by, but aside from putting optics(which some people did) on inlines, and the material they are made of, you would find guns that looked like them made years ago.

Advancements have made may improvements in the guns. But they are loaded and shot in the same tradition as the ones that were hundreds of years ago.

[Whiterabbit]

That's a harsh statement. I did not find where "my way" was to eliminate the deer around places.

I see that my statement was poorly worded, I should apologise. What I intended to communicate, but did so poorly, was to bring up the idea you had specifically agreed with: that it was not a bad idea to lump everyone together, rifle, shotgun, muzzle, and archers for one season, let it be a freeforall. And to suggest what will happen as a direct result of implementing that policy.

It was not my intention to suggest that such a policy would be doing things "your way".

So again, sorry.

[johnson1942]

you will all have to forgive me as my experiece of hunting deer is where their is a lot more deer now than when our ancestors came out west. also i live in a state where their is a exteem abundance of public land. hundreds of thousands of acres of land that is open to hunting. one thing i would like to inform all the followers of cast boolits is just because i live in this state it isnt just for me. it is for any one of you out their. western nebraska has lot and lots of land, private a public. with in 30 miles of me and some only a couple of miles from me their are 4, 4000 acres plots the state bought just for people to hunt and camp on. it is prime wilderness land and full of game. also for those of you who can afford it i have a aquatinance who owns 100,000 acres of land and he sell hunts at a prices that beats most every one else. he has bunk houses to stay in and cooks your meals and provides a ranch hand to go look for deer with you. come to western ne. and hunt, we would enjoy your company. also the muzzle loader season is 1 month long out here, 31 days in dec. again i wasnt aware that deer are not abundant every wheres.also if you want record mule deer in size, go to the bad lands of north dak. you wont believe thwe size of them up their.

[starmac]

Something else to think about ( I know I think weird) I think my sidelock is a more capable killing machine than my 30/30, unless I miss. So which one has the advantage.

I also think my lever actions are more traditional than modern sporting rifles, which I have no use for, but don't think we should have seperate hunts for them.

[drinks]

The "Traditional " side lock is actually the fastest and least costly way to make a flinch lock into a cap lock.
Basically, the cheapest solution, not the best, by any means.
As a practical matter, the under hammer is very good from the stand point of being reliable in bad weather and offers more protection for the eyes.
There is supposed to be an inline flint lock in a German museum.
One of the gun auction sites has a Rem. inline shotgun that was supposedly made about 1860 for sale.
In my opinion, the sidelock is just more playing cowboys and indians, sorta like the bunch that dresses up to go shoot at CA parties.
I am ducking now!

[starmac]

Now you have done went and done it. Don't be dissing my sidelock, it is probably the purtiest gun I own. Of coarse beauty is in the eye of the gun holder. lol

[newton]

I see that my statement was poorly worded, I should apologise. What I intended to communicate, but did so poorly, was to bring up the idea you had specifically agreed with: that it was not a bad idea to lump everyone together, rifle, shotgun, muzzle, and archers for one season, let it be a freeforall. And to suggest what will happen as a direct result of implementing that policy.

It was not my intention to suggest that such a policy would be doing things "your way".

So again, sorry.

I didn't take it too hard. I got pretty thick skin. But I should clarify my intent is not for a freeforall. It is a take an animal anyway you so choose for all. If the state has determined that X amount of deer need to be taken, X amount of bucks, and X amount of does, then you issue X amount of permits. The people who get said permits have until X date to use their permit, using whatever means they want. Then, if they are successful, the state can cross that number off their list. If they are not, then the state can re-issue another permit.

This is done a lot with Elk hunting in certain states. Just not so much with deer for some reason. Here in my state it was done with does for a long time. I think its too much work for them is why they do not do it. Personally, I think it would a better approach to management then the way they do it right now. Because the way they do it right now is based on the fact that even though when a person buys his license in my state they are allowed to take 6 deer, the state banks on the fact that they wont take that many. If everyone who bought a license took that many one year.....well, lets just say that things would change big time the next year.

Right now its a gambling game the state plays. They say you can take X amount of deer, but the different seasons will hopefully make it difficult for some to take all that X amount.

[newton]

you will all have to forgive me as my experiece of hunting deer is where their is a lot more deer now than when our ancestors came out west. also i live in a state where their is a exteem abundance of public land. hundreds of thousands of acres of land that is open to hunting. one thing i would like to inform all the followers of cast boolits is just because i live in this state it isnt just for me. it is for any one of you out their. western nebraska has lot and lots of land, private a public. with in 30 miles of me and some only a couple of miles from me their are 4, 4000 acres plots the state bought just for people to hunt and camp on. it is prime wilderness land and full of game. also for those of you who can afford it i have a aquatinance who owns 100,000 acres of land and he sell hunts at a prices that beats most every one else. he has bunk houses to stay in and cooks your meals and provides a ranch hand to go look for deer with you. come to western ne. and hunt, we would enjoy your company. also the muzzle loader season is 1 month long out here, 31 days in dec. again i wasnt aware that deer are not abundant every wheres.also if you want record mule deer in size, go to the bad lands of north dak. you wont believe thwe size of them up their.

I'm going to have to come out some day and hunt out there. I know it would probably cost more than its worth, based on what hunting around here would cost, but I think it would be fun none the less.

I guess this is off topic pretty bad though huh. lol

[johnson1942]

newton, my boy and i saw a record mule deer buck yesterday about a mile south of me in the grass land. his rack looked like a elks. man is it tempting to take one like that early, that why no guns in my truck untill its legal. he was following a doe around with his nose in you know where, didnt even see us. a 125 yard shot. would cost as much as you think, you can stay at my house as i have plenty of room.

[Ajax]

When the muzzle loader season was put into place it was done to allow the people using primitive TYPE guns a equal footing to taking deer. Having a sealed primer is not primitive to me. This is why o feel the way i do. If the only requirement is load from the muzzle i guess that abomination that uses smokeless and is loaded from the muzzle is fine in yall's eyes. I am not saying you shouldn't be able to use what you want to hunt. I asked to see what everyones opinion was. i stated mine already.

Andy

[starmac]

My opinion used to be the same as yours, and I still much prefer the side lock, but my opinion doesn't affect the definition of muzzle loader. As far as hunting with them, it depends on the way the state words the season, some are primitive hunting season, some are muzzleloader season.
It took a lot of years for me to even think about a stainless rifle too. I just think a rifle should be walnut and blue, but I finally started coming around. lol

[newton]

When the muzzle loader season was put into place it was done to allow the people using primitive TYPE guns a equal footing to taking deer. Having a sealed primer is not primitive to me. This is why o feel the way i do. If the only requirement is load from the muzzle i guess that abomination that uses smokeless and is loaded from the muzzle is fine in yall's eyes. I am not saying you shouldn't be able to use what you want to hunt. I asked to see what everyones opinion was. i stated mine already.

Andy

See, any muzzleloader is a primitive type. That's just it. Sealing the breech is just a sublet of the gun. And, it only comes into play when you have foul weather. They did not set up the season to revolve around foul weather, making the open breech guns the target weapon.

There were plenty of older than you TC sidelock guns that had ways of sealing the breech. They did not set up, or maybe they did(typical government lobbying), the season to be used by people shooting the TC (and the like) company reproduction guns only. They set it up for guns that had limitations. Even the fanciest inline has significant limitations over center fire rifles.

There are still some states that hold to the open breech system, and that's fair because that's what they choose. But most states have come to understand that inlines do not have a significant advantage over sidelocks. It's interesting how people so obsessed with them feel that inlines are so superior. I would think the opposite. But then again I am not a psychologist.

One Thing is for sure. You asked for opinions. And you now have them. But opinions can never negate the truth.

[freebullet]

Sealed is a relative term. If you use an in line long enough you'll find that they misfire too. I didn't hit what would have been my largest muzzleloader whitetail buck at only 40 yards because an in line misfired. If it's raining or sleet is falling my in line will wear a finger cot on the muzzle.

My reasoning for classifying in lines as traditional is simple. The above don't happen with an ar10, nor will it limit everything that can be accomplished as severely as any muzzleloader. What you are calling traditional I would call historic replicas, unless they are authentic then it's just historic. I like them too.

[Ajax]

I guess i can see some of yalls point. Maybe i am hung up in the nostalgia of the whole thing. I had a inline for 5 years before i went to the side lock for the challenge. In that 5 years i never had a misfire or hang fire or FTF. I have had one or two with cap lock since switching almost 10 years ago. Still negligible as far as flintlocks are concerned. I guess i cant get past the appearance of them, or maybe its the advertisements saying load 150 grains and shoot 300 yards that gets me. I have seen guys at the range complain that the gun wouldn't shoot 300 yards like advertised. That worries me. Well i have not said anyone's opinion is wrong, no one can. I have my convictions and expect every to do the same, Have a great morning,


Andy

[freebullet]

200 yards is not difficult with 100-150 grain equivalent charge in many inlines. 250 yards is consistently doable with a good one, a tc omega will do it. Somewhere after 250 the wind takes over and consistency begins to fall off. Iirc 2-3' wind drift for light winds.

That's where the modern super magnum front suffers take over. They can take 200 grains equivalent charge and they'll reach way out there.

[newton]

I guess i can see some of yalls point. Maybe i am hung up in the nostalgia of the whole thing. I had a inline for 5 years before i went to the side lock for the challenge. In that 5 years i never had a misfire or hang fire or FTF. I have had one or two with cap lock since switching almost 10 years ago. Still negligible as far as flintlocks are concerned. I guess i cant get past the appearance of them, or maybe its the advertisements saying load 150 grains and shoot 300 yards that gets me. I have seen guys at the range complain that the gun wouldn't shoot 300 yards like advertised. That worries me. Well i have not said anyone's opinion is wrong, no one can. I have my convictions and expect every to do the same, Have a great morning,


Andy

Its easy to get hung up. It really is. I didn't, then I did, and now I am back to the original.

One thing that is a FACT, no doubt about it, is that some inlines very much provide less of a challenge over some sidelocks/flintlocks. I think, the ultimate challenge is flintlocks. I fully plan on having one some day and I cannot wait to see what the boys at camp will say.

I think any muzzleloader is capable of 300 yards, but only if it is the right type of rifling and projectile. There are many, historical rifles, that are true long range shooters. Look up the Baker Rifle. Quite a gun!

I like the look of my inline, but I love the look of the old long rifles. They are MUCH prettier than any modern gun in my opinion.

[starmac]

I think my old cabellas hawken would reach 300 yards, but I doubt I could get the kentucky windage right. I have to wonder about the 200 grains thing, or even 150, just because the gun doesn't blow up, doesn't mean the accuracy will be there.
Some of the guys here are getting some pretty amazing yardage with accuracy with their sidelocks and without sabots.

[dondiego]

They were making 300 yard shots with flinters in the Revolutionary War. Target rich environment of course, but it is documented.

[freebullet]

I think my old cabellas hawken would reach 300 yards, but I doubt I could get the kentucky windage right. I have to wonder about the 200 grains thing, or even 150, just because the gun doesn't blow up, doesn't mean the accuracy will be there.
Some of the guys here are getting some pretty amazing yardage with accuracy with their sidelocks and without sabots.

Just like a center fire the load combo has to be right to get good accuracy. Good ones will maintain accuracy longer without cleaning as well. I could get 10-13 shots out of that omega without serious accuracy degradation, you simply couldn't load it anymore at that point. Sabot would split or an ear would come off when trying to load it. 150 grain equivalent of pyrodex, triple7, or app with most 250 gr 452 sabot bullet did well to 200 yards.

I don't have any that take 200 gr charges, but the are a number of videos on YouTube testing them out. Iirc one is called bad boy (er bull) muzzleloader, and there are a couple others with the 200 gr capability. One video showed them taking a deer/shootin targets out to 500 yards.

[starmac]

I have no doubt that shooting targets at 500 yards can be done with a muzzle loader, and see no reason one would need 150 or 200 grains of powder. I think the biggest limitation would be the sights, it should be fairly easy to duplicate 45/70 ballistics with a side lock, but there are very few people that install the sights it would take, and practice at those ranges. I don't practice at 300 yards with anything, as it is way past my personell limit on shooting at game. With iron sights I have always limited myself to 125 yards and even my old side lock does pretty well at that range.

[Col4570]

Here in the UK,inlines are regarded as not being in the spirit of Originals and are therefore not allowed in Muzzleloading competitions.I have no doubt they have their place for hunting but are only marginal in performance to a modern Rifle and exist to extend the Deer season.

[starmac]

I forget which forum it is, but I have heard of one that pretty much bans anybody that mentions an inline. lol I am glad this one at least let's us fuss about them. lol

[Ajax]

a barrel will only burn so much powder anything more is going out the barrel.


Andy

[starmac]

I don't know what the limit is before it just spits it out the barrel, but the way my hawken smacks my cheek with 120 grains behind a 435 gr boolit, I will never find out. lol
I have never tried that much in my inline.

[idahoron]

I forget which forum it is, but I have heard of one that pretty much bans anybody that mentions an inline. lol I am glad this one at least let's us fuss about them. lol

That would be "The Muzzleloading Forum" My Hot Rods are looked at by some as the downfall of civilization as they know it.

[johnson1942]

love your hot rods ron, got one my self.

[DCM]

Are they a muzzle-loader yes, they must be loaded from the muzzle.
Traditional no, but that depends on Your definition, does it need to be a matchlock? Can it be a Flintlock, can it be a Caplock can it be a caplock that uses standard primers??
Folks in WI are arguing about crossbows now, I bet most of them use a compound, Neither is traditional by any means and crossbows pre-date compounds.

Edit:Forgot to mention wheel-locks

[starmac]

In my opinion traditional changes over time. There was probably a time when a regular old rock was considered tratitional. My chrystal ball says that there will be a time the inlines will be considered traditional by most, the ar 15s traditional and it will not end there either. It seems everything eventually becomes outdated, even the way we think.

[tunnug]

FWIW, the name muzzleloader itself denotes a firearm that is loaded from the muzzle, and says nothing about the ignition system. Therefore, in my thinking, both what we think as traditional muzzleloaders (which use a sidelock for ignition) and inlines are both muzzleloaders. You could say one is typical and the other non-typical.

^^^This^^^

[Elkins45]

i guess that abomination that uses smokeless and is loaded from the muzzle is fine in yall's eyes.
Andy


Well i have not said anyone's opinion is wrong

When you use the word "abomination" then you certainly have strongly implied it.

Of course it's the internet and I have no idea if you were serious or just having a little bit of fun with your choice of words. It's fine either way. If you're one of those people who needs someone to feel superior to, then I'm happy to be the person you're looking down your nose at. I'm willing to suffer a little snobbery in exchange for a gun that doesn't need to be fired to unload and cleaned every night. Just because corrosive powder is part of your tradition doesn't mean it has to be part of mine.

[newton]

I think that's key there. One mans tradition is not another. Even if they are from the same era. The "traditional" thanksgiving feast had a lot of venison. But I would venture to say that not many households eat venison at thanksgiving. Tradition has changed over the years.

I think that since inlines were developed on the sidelock, flintlock, etc platform - then they came from a traditional background. Sidelocks were a development over flintlocks, the same as inlines over sidelocks. No one would argue that only flintlocks are traditional, they always throw in sidelocks.

I think the one thing about the "traditional" ML shoots having only open breech is to make things easier to keep things straight as far as playing field - ONLY because I have yet to see an inline that has a slower roundball twist. Plus, most of the guys who run it are apart of the "my gun is longer than yours" crowd.....lol

most of those events are not conflicted by the weather so true open breech would not matter at all. And if it was, then the sidelocks would have an advantage over the flinters. It's all just about what the organizers want in the end. And that's just it. The people who run the show do so based on their preference not others. It's the American way after all....

[Ajax]

That was tongue and cheek. But that being said i have never had to unload and clean my BP rifle every night. I have left it loaded the whole season and it fired first try every time. Their is a lot of misconception about black powder out there. It is hygroscopic bit no more so than any other in my opinion. I simply keep it dry and it works for me. Like i said before use what you want i was just stating my opinion and i would never look down my nose at anyone, had that done to me too much in my life.

Andy

[newton]

That was tongue and cheek. But that being said i have never had to unload and clean my BP rifle every night. I have left it loaded the whole season and it fired first try every time. Their is a lot of misconception about black powder out there. It is hygroscopic bit no more so than any other in my opinion. I simply keep it dry and it works for me. Like i said before use what you want i was just stating my opinion and i would never look down my nose at anyone, had that done to me too much in my life.

Andy

This is true. I have left my sidelocks loaded before too for a whole season. I think there is a lot to be said for seasoning a barrel too, but I am not very intelligent on that end.

[Elkins45]

I have yet to see an inline that has a slower roundball twist.

I would love an inline with a 1-66 or 1-48 twist so I could shoot Minie bullets.


That was tongue and cheek. But that being said i have never had to unload and clean my BP rifle every night. I have left it loaded the whole season and it fired first try every time. Their is a lot of misconception about black powder out there. It is hygroscopic bit no more so than any other in my opinion. I simply keep it dry and it works for me.

I learned something new today. I have always been warned if I left black or Pyrodex in the gun it would crumble to bits overnight...or something like that.

[starmac]

I remember reading about someone getting killed when the owner of a new/used put a cap on one they just bought and fired it in the house, killing his son.
When I bought my first one, I knew nothing about them. I bought a couple of books to familiarize myself with the use and maintenance of them. I do not remember reading that you could, or couldn't leave one loaded, but doubted the frontiersmen whose life depended on these ran around with empty guns, So my first hunt left it loaded. The hunt was only 4 days, and I never got a shot, but fired it at the end of it, and I couldn't tell any difference the way it fired.

[deerslayer303]

IMHO, No I do not think an inline is a TRADITIONAL muzzleloader. Is it a ML? Sure it is. Do I think an Inline should be allowed in a states ML only season? NOPE I do not. A modern inline to me once loaded, with its modern optics, sabot and modern bullet poses NO MORE of a challenge than my bolt action rifle. Other than having one shot. Heck most times I only get ONE shot with any other rifle. I personally think traditional side lock ML's firing a patched roundball with Iron sights ONLY should be allowed in ML only seasons. Just my .02.

[starmac]

Especially since it is reported a near miss kills deer drt with an inline and you have to hit them with a round ball out of a side lock.

[freebullet]

IMHO, No I do not think an inline is a TRADITIONAL muzzleloader. Is it a ML? Sure it is. Do I think an Inline should be allowed in a states ML only season? NOPE I do not. A modern inline to me once loaded, with its modern optics, sabot and modern bullet poses NO MORE of a challenge than my bolt action rifle. Other than having one shot. Heck most times I only get ONE shot with any other rifle. I personally think traditional side lock ML's firing a patched roundball with Iron sights ONLY should be allowed in ML only seasons. Just my .02.

Just to be clear your saying you want more government enforced restrictions on our hunting? You want gun bans based on certain features for certain seasons? You want folks who can't see to use open sights anymore taking shots at what looks like a deer instead of using an optic? So you don't see optics, which were created mid 1800's as traditional? I'm sure glad you have no say in our regulations. I prefer less government involvement in all aspects, anything else sounds liberal to me.

Most states that loosened regs to allow inlines did so due to low harvest and/or tag sales. You would think as gun owners there would be a more united front or... we fall.

[Ajax]

Just to be clear your saying you want more government enforced restrictions on our hunting? You want gun bans based on certain features for certain seasons? You want folks who can't see to use open sights anymore taking shots at what looks like a deer instead of using an optic? So you don't see optics, which were created mid 1800's as traditional? I'm sure glad you have no say in our regulations. I prefer less government involvement in all aspects, anything else sounds liberal to me.

Most states that loosened regs to allow inlines did so due to low harvest and/or tag sales. You would think as gun owners there would be a more united front or... we fall.


2 Different subjects. I personally think seasons are ridiculous. if you need food get it. If you catch people wasting animals deal with it. But regulations are there to protect the animals. Just as they are there to level the playing field. Can't have some without the other. How much regulation by the government do you want.


Andy

[freebullet]

Well since they are trying to regulate us out of existence, I would say again less is best. No law can level the playing field, man has had the upper hand for a long time now. So I guess the guns you call traditional are looked down upon by archers and spear chuckers as those historically have a longer tradition much beyond any modern made gun you think fits your arbitrary definition of traditional.

So are lever guns traditional? They were looked down upon by many traditionalists at the time of their creation. Kind of like the ar of its day. Guess nothing should be legal.

Good luck.

[deerslayer303]

The very FIRST abbreviation in my post was IMHO. Which stands for IN MY HUMBLE OPINION! The rise modern inline popularity was created solely due to muzzleloading season. If muzzleloading season was done away with, you would see the Inline go away too. As soon as rifle season comes in MOST peoples Inline gets thrown in the corner and out comes the centerfire rifle. The WHOLE basis to this thread was asking everyones OPINION anyway. I never said I didn't like an inline. I just said I didn't think they should be allowed in a Muzzleloader / primitive weapon type season. A modern inline is ANYTHING but primitive. Again its just MY opinion which I AM entitled to.

[deerslayer303]

By the looks of the pole results looks like I'm in the majority.

[dondiego]

There are 61 no votes and 64 non-no votes.

[Beagle333]

Or 35 yes votes and 90 non-yes votes. :popcorn:

[starmac]

Is there a state that has a primitive weapon season that allows scopes, or even inlines, just asking. There are actually some hunters here that uses a scoped inline during the rifle season, scopes are not allowed in the muzzloader season, and as far as I know we do not have a primitive season.

[dtknowles]

Is there a state that has a primitive weapon season that allows scopes, or even inlines, just asking. There are actually some hunters here that uses a scoped inline during the rifle season, scopes are not allowed in the muzzloader season, and as far as I know we do not have a primitive season.

I am not on top of this years rule book yet but Louisiana and Mississippi allow single shot cartridge rifles with an exposed hammer that are 35 caliber or greater during primitive season, don't know if they allow scopes.

Tim

[deerslayer303]

Here is SC's definition of primitive weapons right out of the rule book:

For special primitive weapons seasons, primitive
weapons include bow and arrow, crossbows
and muzzleloading shotguns of twenty
gauge or larger, and rifles of .36 caliber or
larger with open or peep sights or scopes,
which use black powder or a black powder
substitute that does not contain nitrocellulose
or nitro-glycerin components as the propellant
charge. There are no restrictions on ignition
systems including flintstone, percussion cap,
shotgun primer, disk, or electronic. During
primitive weapons season, no revolving rifles
are permitted (50-11-310). Falconry Allowed

[starmac]

Our special Muzzleloader season , says any shoulder mounted firearm that is loaded from the muzzle, 45 cal or larger for big game, but no scopes.

So no real advantage. The advantage here lies in the areas that the special hunts are in.

I do not and do not plan to certify with a muzzloader, so any muzzie hunting I do will be during the regular season, and can use a scope if I want.

[newton]

Or 35 yes votes and 90 non-yes votes. :popcorn:

well....I'd say 61 no votes and 64 votes that the idea that any muzzleloader that is not considered more of a traditional weapon that modern guns is ridiculous. ��

[newton]

The very FIRST abbreviation in my post was IMHO. Which stands for IN MY HUMBLE OPINION! The rise modern inline popularity was created solely due to muzzleloading season. If muzzleloading season was done away with, you would see the Inline go away too. As soon as rifle season comes in MOST peoples Inline gets thrown in the corner and out comes the centerfire rifle. The WHOLE basis to this thread was asking everyones OPINION anyway. I never said I didn't like an inline. I just said I didn't think they should be allowed in a Muzzleloader / primitive weapon type season. A modern inline is ANYTHING but primitive. Again its just MY opinion which I AM entitled to.

most sidelock shooters do the same. If you basing your averages on number of guns owned. Just because a handful on here and other forums choose to use them during rifle season does not say that they are more traditional.

The tradition is to harvest an animal. I'll do that anyway they allow me. I'm not in it for the sport or challenge. It's challenge enough living my life with crackerjacks in everyday life. The sport of hunting will be its demise. Then, who ever holds the most power will decide who gets to hunt. Rest assured, the sidelock only crowd is not going to be top of the chain.

[starmac]

I think it should be my way or the highway. All of you go back to slingshots, not no wrist rockets either, and no new fangled lead or steel balls either., were talking a forked stick, rubber band and rocks here folks. lol

[Beagle333]

Falconry is allowed? Where do I get a deer-fetching falcon! I want one! :popcorn::mrgreen:

[Beagle333]

I don't think it asks if muzzleloaders are traditional weapons, it asks if inlines are traditional muzzleloaders. That's the way I read it.

[johnson1942]

every one is for the same thing and argues from a different point. if i was an old greek, i would be sitting on the front porch and strokeing my beard.

[Col4570]

Rather than having a Patch Box,a Digital Clock could be fitted to a Plastic Stock.Just joking but how far do you go before a muzzleloader becomes a parody of the traditional concept as far as the law allows for hunting.My own view is that I will stick to my traditional Muzzleloaders as modern designs have no appeal for me.I would say that if anything the modern inlines have the edge on primitives for efficiency otherwise why have one.

[starmac]

Why have one, because a scope would look terrible on my sidelock. lol

I think a lot of guys are getting them, because they can get in the game for 1/2 price compared to a sidelock too.

[newton]

I don't think it asks if muzzleloaders are traditional weapons, it asks if inlines are traditional muzzleloaders. That's the way I read it.

I do not know if you can narrow it that much. If so, what is a traditional car? Traditional house? Traditional lawnmower? Traditional chainsaw?

Traditional encompasses too much to narrow something out specifically, while allowing many others to be included. Make sense?

You cannot take the advancement of history and stop it at a certain spot indefinitely for all people. Sure, it can be an opinion based argument, but it cannot be absolute. You can however, lump a large portion of similar things in as tradition.

[newton]

Rather than having a Patch Box,a Digital Clock could be fitted to a Plastic Stock.Just joking but how far do you go before a muzzleloader becomes a parody of the traditional concept as far as the law allows for hunting.My own view is that I will stick to my traditional Muzzleloaders as modern designs have no appeal for me.I would say that if anything the modern inlines have the edge on primitives for efficiency otherwise why have one.


So your saying that a sidelock/percussion does not have an edge over a matchlock, Wheelock, or flintlock? So, why does the percussion get lumped into the primitive and the inline get left out?

The scope can be argued, but only to a point. It was available for use on percussion rifles, but I agree with others that it takes away from the look. Projectiles are another argument, but that would mean that EVERY one would have to use the same kind in order for it to be considered primitive, I doubt there are many who use thin animal skin for patching their RB. But it was something that was done. So, as cotton patches are to leather, so is plastic sabot to cotton patches. Its just an advancement is all.

With all respect, efficiency is a moot point when it comes to arguing traditional things. There are many things that are traditional which have changed over the years, becoming more efficient, yet staying within what they truly are. Look at football, basketball, and baseball. They are still traditional games, but most of them have changed a lot of what is used and how its used. An inline is still a muzzleloader, it has stayed true to what it is, just changed in how it does what it does.

[newton]

every one is for the same thing and argues from a different point. if i was an old greek, i would be sitting on the front porch and strokeing my beard.

It keeps the mind young eh? :-P

[Ajax]

It's funny how everyone has argued that there is no advantage of a inline over a side lock. I for one believe there is but this is my opinion. I do think a lot of the appeal of the inline is the perceived ease of cleaning and the price. I never said they were not muzzleloaders nor did i ask. I asked should they be considered traditional. Which i was 90% basing the question off of the ignition system. If you think that a caplock has a huge advantage over a flint lock and wheel lock i once again don't agree. I have never had a cap fit snugly enough to keep the weather out. And if it does it takes 2 hammer falls to seat it and fire. ONCE again these are my opinion's and not stated for fact for anyone else.


Andy

[Ajax]

Why have one, because a scope would look terrible on my sidelock. lol

I think a lot of guys are getting them, because they can get in the game for 1/2 price compared to a sidelock too.


I think this is a big reason myself. I also think people actually think there is a advantage over the traditionally designed ones. Only one i can see is ignition system.

Andy

[newton]

I think this is a big reason myself. I also think people actually think there is a advantage over the traditionally designed ones. Only one i can see is ignition system.

Andy


Lol. Big lol. So your whole opinion is based on ignition system. Well, aside from the prettier look of the sidelocks, which I am in agreement for sure. :-P

I do think there is an advantage of percussion over flintlock. Big one. Namely the fact that you can carry caps loose in your pocket, or a capper, or anything else. And a small pinch of the cap and I have NEVER had one come off. Flintlocks have to flip up the frizzen and put a measure of powder in the pan. Then, on top of that, they are MUCH more susceptible to moisture than percussion. A percussion gun you can dab some wax on and hunt for a while in the rain. Can't do that with a flintlock. Not that there are not ways around it also though. Its just a different critter, just like the inline is a different critter.

So, your opinion of the ignition system being superior from percussion to 209 is just about as dramatic a change from the flintlock to the percussion. So, why is the percussion held as much of a traditional rifle as the flintlock? Or would you say that the flintlock is more of a traditional ML? If that is so, then why couldn't you just say the inline is not as much of a traditional ML as the percussion? Why throw it out all together?

I get the opinion thing, and it should be treated as such for sure.

[rking22]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by starmac http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=2994776#post2994776)
Why have one, because a scope would look terrible on my sidelock. lol

I think a lot of guys are getting them, because they can get in the game for 1/2 price compared to a sidelock too.




I think this is a big reason myself. I also think people actually think there is a advantage over the traditionally designed ones. Only one i can see is ignition system.

Andy

Ajax, I think you hit the nail on the head. A functional inline can be made much more "economically" than a sidelock. The "cheap" sidelocks left an opening that manufactures lept to fill. Inlines are just simpler, therefore easier to make reliable. The manufacturers (and media) have done a very good job of convincing "Joe public" that plastic is the best material for a stock. It's economics for them. For instance, screw up a piece of walnut and you have fire wood. Screw up a plastic stock, just regrind it and remold it. Same(economics) with inline ignition, a cheap side lock frequently has issues, now, put in the "work" to learn how to make a good one work and it's very reliable. Without the inlines, there would be less people muzzleloading due to economics.
As far as percussion better than flint? I have no need to pinch and install a new cap with a flintgun when I reload in the woods. Charge the pan with the same powder as the main load and done. Besides I haven't seen a tin of caps (in a store)in a year or more. + one to the 209 system on availability.Flintguns were still in use,in the mountains, 80 years after caps came out, had to be a reason.
I personally will not tollerate the difficulty of loading the sabo load in a dirty bore, Seems the "modern" projectile system is not "all that". Not to mention, the BC of a 240r .429 ain't so hot for "long range"
If I wanted to build a 200 yard rifle ,I would take a page from history, and use a 45 with a full dia bullet and then put a "semi sealed ignition" undehammer on it. Wood for me, and a tapered and flared barrel please, ala "Virgina" guns. Now that's not within any traditional school, but still much better ergonomics (for me) than the current batch of rifles.
Not the "inline ignition" to me, it's the modernizing on the "appearance". It has become the current norm, and will become "traditional" as the current generation "matures". Sunday at the gun club, trying to help another member get his arrows fletched, I offered to loan my Bizenburg and some feathers. 5 middle aged men looked at me like I was nuts. Plastic vanes and compounds are the new traditional now that crossbows are "hitting the seen". We should watch the way we peigionhole based on appearance, that is how our oponents attack ARs vs Leverguns,,, M9s vs Pythons ect.
Yes it's a muzzle loader, no it's not traditional to some of us. No big deal, and I really don't think it has any real advantage over the ol style. Percieved advantages sometimes don't pan out in the field, sometimes they do.
Now that underhammer with a bullet twist and a 457122 lubed with crisco, put a 4X scope on it and there is a real advantage, especially if it has nice tigerstripe or flame maple :) Gotta get my roundtuit. Opps ,sorry for the long wanderin post..

[Beagle333]

I do not know if you can narrow it that much. If so, what is a traditional car? Traditional house? Traditional lawnmower? Traditional chainsaw?
Traditional encompasses too much to narrow something out specifically, while allowing many others to be included. Make sense?
You cannot take the advancement of history and stop it at a certain spot indefinitely for all people. Sure, it can be an opinion based argument, but it cannot be absolute. You can however, lump a large portion of similar things in as tradition.

'Just because I got nothin' better to do that beat this horse a little....
.... and it's kinda fun. ;)

I was going with the definition of "tradition" as:

tra·di·tion:coffee:

noun \trə-ˈdi-shən\ : a way of thinking, behaving, or doing something that has been used by the people in a particular group, family, society, etc., for a long time.

You might not can stop it at one certain spot, but I think it is more out of line to jump to the most current end of development and hoist one and declare it is "traditional". When did they start marketing the inlines that hunters are now using? Around 1970-ish? Once we have had inlines for 2000 or so years, then you can point to them and declare that they are traditional, since people have been hunting with them for a MUCH longer time that that ol smoky thing they used back in the first 400 years (with flinters being developed and made popular around 1625, and I believe the copper percussion cap is 100 years old)... but since the sporter-stocked inlines have only been popular for less than 50 years..... I'd go with the old smoke pole as being a traditional muzzleloader.

But I do see your point too. I suppose if we went by my definition of "longest use", then a traditional house would indeed be a cave.

[starmac]

Well this thread has shown examples of inlines way before percussion caps came on scene, sooooo where does that leave us.

I think another reason some people buy inlines is the availability of left handed sidelocks, in fact I don't think, I know.
When I first started looking for a muzzle loader It HAD to be a sidelock (percussion) I bet I had 20 or more shop owners try to talk me into an inline, just to make a sale out of what they had in stock.
I know it lefty muzzle shooters is going to be a small percentage overall, but I like to think we still count. lol

[Beagle333]

Lefty muzzle shooters, it is! I vote for your own season too! :bigsmyl2:


I did buy an inline before I got my first sidelock. And yes, it was just so I could horn in on that early 4 days of muzzie-only season here. It just seemed so much easier to snap in a primer, drop a pellet and stuff a plastic wrapped bullet down the pipe, and I was huntin' like Dan'l Boone and the old guys!
And I didn't have to learn all that mess about measuring the power and selecting the right thickness of patch and tuning the lock and...! :mrgreen:


I still think stuffing a round ball is "traditional".... but what do I know.... I paint my boolits. :veryconfu

[Elkins45]

Well this thread has shown examples of inlines way before percussion caps came on scene, sooooo where does that leave us.

I think another reason some people buy inlines is the availability of left handed sidelocks, in fact I don't think, I know.
When I first started looking for a muzzle loader It HAD to be a sidelock (percussion) I bet I had 20 or more shop owners try to talk me into an inline, just to make a sale out of what they had in stock.
I know it lefty muzzle shooters is going to be a small percentage overall, but I like to think we still count. lol

My T/C Renegade is a lefty. I can't even imagine shooting a right handed flintlock...a percussion gun comes close enough to setting my beard on fire already. I can't imagine an actual explosion that cost to my hair!

i didn't remember that as an advantage of inlines, but now that I'm reminded I can certainly add that to the list of reasons that I like my inline gun.

[starmac]

Well I like em all I guess. lol I haven't really played with the inlines much, but I bought a couple once I learned that I was guaranteed success by using one. Mine will probably not be half as successful as they still have wood stocks, blue barrels and can only be powered by a #11 cap, AND I have to pull a hammer back, soooo even though they can't run with the big dogs, and can only be marginally successful, I like em, and that is what matters here. lol Oh yea, one of them will get a scope, which disqualifies it here as a muzzie.

[10 ga]

I voted "who cares", as I don't care. I have 13 muzzleloaders. 5 are inline smokeless ML. 2 are inline smokers and 6 are sidehammer guns. Of the sidehammer really only 2 of them would be considered "traditional" style, one is an original Harpers Ferry 1842 in 69 smooth bore and the other is a "Hawken" replica. The others are pretty well dressed up.

Plus the original poll question is rather grotesquely constructed. I can really get about 3 different questions out of the OP.

Yes, you read correctly, smokeless muzzleloaders! I have 2 Savage MLII, 2 Remmy 700ML upgraded with bolt nose like the Savage and smokeless barrel and Savage breech plug, and a smokeless barrel custom built for my Encore. And yes, SML will outperform smokers in any category you want to address.

10 ga

[starmac]

Awe Man, you just had to bring up the smokeless muzzies, and learn me that even though they are inlines, my wood stocked ones won't keel nuthing now. Dadgumit, I really don't want one of them plastic thingies, but guess I will have to get with the program if I ever plan to succeed in this game. lol

[starmac]

I keep seeing the seal system on inlines are an advantage, and can see the thinking behind it. This got me to thinking. My inlines are the old scouts, which has 2 vents that are between the capped nipple and the powder charge, now I'm wandering if the powder can draw moisture through the vents bad enough that leaving one loaded a few days may not be a good idea??

[Col4570]

A left or right hand Flintlock is not a requirement for safety since double guns have a Lock on each side therefore it is immaterial which shoulder you use.

[Saltner]

I voted no
As in previous comments, these guns have in common only the load from the muzzle, the rest has nothing in common: Stainless steel barrels, ignition system with primers 209, shutter, weapons sights, ready for bases and rings to mount scopes, security systems and considerable use of smokeless powder and even pirodex.

[Lead Fred]

Inlines disgust me. Flatlanders that cant use a flinter should just stay home.

Uneducated back woods hicks used flinters for many years.

Modern folk have to rely on crutches to get the same job done.

Ill put my patched round ball traveling 2033fps up against any of them BBQ pokers, fake powder, modernized junkers

[newton]

I voted no
As in previous comments, these guns have in common only the load from the muzzle, the rest has nothing in common: Stainless steel barrels, ignition system with primers 209, shutter, weapons sights, ready for bases and rings to mount scopes, security systems and considerable use of smokeless powder and even pirodex.

Everything you list is also found on sidelocks except for ready to mount scopes. Very interesting.

[newton]

Inlines disgust me. Flatlanders that cant use a flinter should just stay home.

Uneducated back woods hicks used flinters for many years.

Modern folk have to rely on crutches to get the same job done.

Ill put my patched round ball traveling 2033fps up against any of them BBQ pokers, fake powder, modernized junkers

What about sidelocks? How do you know how fast your RB is traveling? Did'nt know they had chronographs in the traditional days....Is'nt a chronograph a modern tool?

[johnson1942]

lead fred, i always like to point out the value of a rifled flinter by useing the battle of new orleans as an example of what a rifled flinter can do. 3500 british dead or wounded. mostly dead. none got closer that 98 yards. most were head shots. the british were attacking the center where the 500 flint long rifles were because those squirrel rifles were to small of a cal. for war. the first shot fired in the battle was a 216 yard shot by one of those rifle men named morgan. he took a loud and offensive british officer off of a dapple grey with a head shot. only 11 americans died, and most of those was the night before in a scouting night fight. they were mostly native americans helping out. you like and shoot a very good style of rifle. now if i was their with my fast twist sidelocks they would have used me for long range snipeing. my gun shoots real black very well behind a paperpatch bullet. also the inline guys guns shoot real black very well also and if they would have been their with real black and paperpatched bullets their may not have been a battle because all the generals and officers whould have been dead way way out their. i get the drift that every one on cast bullets likes to be independent some what or a whole lot. a flinter gives you that and so does a well managed inline. boy will the noise start on cast bollits when they put electronic triggers on inlines. also this new post with powdercoating baked on to the bullets catches on in muzzleloader. then us paperpatch shooters will cry that its too modern. it will and does shoot as good as any paperpatch. just thank God you have all lived long enough to see and cope with change. remember the sioux who fought custer hand to hand and killed him lived to be close to 110 years old. he saw change few men ever ever saw. when he died in the early 60/s he saw the beginning of the space age and nuclear age. he was born on the prairie hunting buffalo and died in a completely other age. white bull saw also if all live long enough so will you. electric triggers and powder coated bullets. what does flantlander mean? i dont live in those wooded hill whose people call every one else a flatlander. their a canyons not too far from my house if i took you down their and left you their you would never get out no matter how skilled you are in the outdoors in your area. we have deep canyons here and granite peaks

[waksupi]

What about sidelocks? How do you know how fast your RB is traveling? Did'nt know they had chronographs in the traditional days....Is'nt a chronograph a modern tool?

Pendulum chronographs have been around for a LONG time.

The ballistic pendulum was invented in 1742 by English mathematician Benjamin Robins (1707–1751), and published in his book New Principles of Gunnery, which revolutionized the science of ballistics, as it provided the first way to accurately measure the velocity of a bullet.[2][5]

Robins used the ballistic pendulum to measure projectile velocity in two ways. The first was to attach the gun to the pendulum, and measure the recoil. Since the momentum of the gun is equal to the momentum of the ejecta, and since the projectile was (in those experiments) the large majority of the mass of the ejecta, the velocity of the bullet could be approximated. The second, and more accurate method, was to directly measure the bullet momentum by firing it into the pendulum. Robins experimented with musket balls of around one ounce in mass (30 g), while other contemporaries used his methods with cannon shot of one to three pounds (0.5 to 1.4 kg).[5]

Robins' original work used a heavy iron pendulum, faced with wood, to catch the bullet. Modern reproductions, used as demonstrations in physics classes, generally use a heavy weight suspended by a very fine, lightweight arm, and ignore the mass of the pendulum's arm. Robins' heavy iron pendulum did not allow this, and Robins' mathematical approach was slightly more complex. He used the period of oscillation and mass of the pendulum (both measured with the bullet included) to calculate the rotational inertia of the pendulum, which was then used in the calculations. Robins also used a length of ribbon, loosely gripped in a clamp, to measure the travel of the pendulum. The pendulum would draw out a length of ribbon equal to the chord of pendulum's travel.[6]

The first system to supplant ballistic pendulums with direct measures of projectile speed was invented in 1808, during the Napoleonic Wars and used a rapidly rotating shaft of known speed with two paper disks on it; the bullet was fired through the disks, parallel to the shaft, and the angular difference in the points of impact provided an elapsed time over the distance between the disks. A direct electromechanical clockwork measure appeared in 1840, with a spring-driven clock started and stopped by electromagnets, whose current was interrupted by the bullet passing through two meshes of fine wires, again providing the time to traverse the given distance.[2]

[newton]

Yes, but I doubt he was checking his speed on one..... If he is, then I will eat crow. lol

[dtknowles]

Pendulum chronographs have been around for a LONG time.

The ballistic pendulum was invented in 1742 by English mathematician Benjamin Robins (1707–1751), and published in his book New Principles of Gunnery, which revolutionized the science of ballistics, as it provided the first way to accurately measure the velocity of a bullet.[2][5]

Robins used the ballistic pendulum to measure projectile velocity in two ways. The first was to attach the gun to the pendulum, and measure the recoil. Since the momentum of the gun is equal to the momentum of the ejecta, and since the projectile was (in those experiments) the large majority of the mass of the ejecta, the velocity of the bullet could be approximated. The second, and more accurate method, was to directly measure the bullet momentum by firing it into the pendulum. Robins experimented with musket balls of around one ounce in mass (30 g), while other contemporaries used his methods with cannon shot of one to three pounds (0.5 to 1.4 kg).[5]

Robins' original work used a heavy iron pendulum, faced with wood, to catch the bullet. Modern reproductions, used as demonstrations in physics classes, generally use a heavy weight suspended by a very fine, lightweight arm, and ignore the mass of the pendulum's arm. Robins' heavy iron pendulum did not allow this, and Robins' mathematical approach was slightly more complex. He used the period of oscillation and mass of the pendulum (both measured with the bullet included) to calculate the rotational inertia of the pendulum, which was then used in the calculations. Robins also used a length of ribbon, loosely gripped in a clamp, to measure the travel of the pendulum. The pendulum would draw out a length of ribbon equal to the chord of pendulum's travel.[6]

The first system to supplant ballistic pendulums with direct measures of projectile speed was invented in 1808, during the Napoleonic Wars and used a rapidly rotating shaft of known speed with two paper disks on it; the bullet was fired through the disks, parallel to the shaft, and the angular difference in the points of impact provided an elapsed time over the distance between the disks. A direct electromechanical clockwork measure appeared in 1840, with a spring-driven clock started and stopped by electromagnets, whose current was interrupted by the bullet passing through two meshes of fine wires, again providing the time to traverse the given distance.[2]

Thanks for beating me to it but one simple correction. I do not consider the Ballistic Pendulum a chronograph because it did not measure Time directly. It did allow the user to calculate velocity so the result would be similar to a modern chronograph.

Tim

[Squeeze]

Do all you "traditionalists" have a modern vehicle in your driveway? Do you store your food in an electric refrigerator? Its pretty obvious a computer is OK. Why then is it you feel superior because you shoot a "traditional" gun? how many states really have separate seasons for styles of muzzleloader? Mine, and all around me call it muzzleloader season. All those traditional forums love to bicker amongst themselves.. your getup doesnt have period correct thread count. That knife on your belt, Isnt made with the correct era technology. Is that a TC hawken?? haha THATS not a hawken at all!. Seems to me, the modern forums just welcome all types and say, however you have your fun. But for some reason, "Traditionalist" have to scrutinize every microscopic detail of everyone else's garb/gun/camp/style. Is it envy? why exactly all the animosity toward fellow sportsmen. Why do you feel the need for more imposed restriction on the "traditional" sport we all love. We are under attack quite enough from outside our ranks, And creating exactly this type of turmoil within Is just what the opposition hopes for. When you see your in a fight, Dont supply the enemy with munitions.



Edit: AW heck, screw it. Dont know why I ever posted on this thread in the first place.

[Ajax]

i agree do away with all except regular and allow full auto and rpg's. We shouldn't fight among ourselves. I say if you want to use a Buick who am i to argue.. seriously though i don't care what you use i was trying to initiate some conversation seems i did.


Andy

[deerslayer303]

Why then is it you feel superior because you shoot a "traditional" gun? Feel superior shooting a sidelock? LOL that's funny, In no way do I feel superior, when a 149.00 inline will shoot circles around my 700.00 sidelock. I have NOTHING against an inline or any other firearm. If it goes BANG I like it. I started with an inline. A Traditions Buck Stalker in a Plastic Redi pack, had everything except the powder. It shot AWESOME right out of the pack. But along the way I wanted to go back and do it the way my forefathers did. With some of the equipment (well LIKE the equipment) they had. And shooting a sidelock with REAL black powder and a patched round ball is just TOO MUCH FUN to me. Its fun to figure out their personality and get them shooting as accurate as possible. Because in essence you are a hand loader right there at the shooting bench. My statements about not allowing the inlines in a primitive weapons season could be the same argument archery guys have against crossbows. Crossbows were illegal for a long time. I guess none of us really have an argument here. We could go on and on I guess. Heck even I would be shunned at some of these "traditional" shoots. Being that I load with a precut patch, etc, etc. Ok I'm gonna stop rambling.

[Ajax]

I know understand where some of the confusion came from my original post. I meant to say traditional muzzleloading.

Andy

[Col4570]

Stainless Steel,Plastic or Aluminium are not right for Traditional Muzzleloaders,since they where not available during the period.Original,Reproduction and Modern Muzzleloaders are 3 differing categories.I suppose those who issue Hunting licenses will have put them in one category for todays shooters.Over here (U K) we rarely see inlines so I cant comment on the efficiency of either.Today (sunday 9th Nov) I shot my Whitworth at 100 Yards and kept inside the black 6 inches.Thats good enough for me.

[newton]

Stainless Steel,Plastic or Aluminium are not right for Traditional Muzzleloaders,since they where not available during the period.Original,Reproduction and Modern Muzzleloaders are 3 differing categories.I suppose those who issue Hunting licenses will have put them in one category for todays shooters.Over here (U K) we rarely see inlines so I cant comment on the efficiency of either.Today (sunday 9th Nov) I shot my Whitworth at 100 Yards and kept inside the black 6 inches.Thats good enough for me.

Funny. So the modern machines that make the "look alike" "traditional" guns are ok? What the gun is made of, and what it looks like, is fundamental - but how its made is not? Seems to me, that any firearms authenticity starts with how its made. I highly doubt that TC has guys who make their sidelocks the traditional way....opps....there is that word again....

[Col4570]

I would say that the method of manufacture is fundamental and nothing to do with the finished article in either Traditional or Modern configuration.I have no problems with either choice of Rifle but will maintain they are two differing types.There is no doubt that either will bring home the Meat but historicaly they are apart.

[newton]

So there is no traditional way to make a gun, only traditional way of what it's made of and how it's shot? Interesting.

[newton]

Modern machines were not availbe back then, just like the materials you listed.

[Ajax]

So maybe they should stop all modern made guns after 1900 from being used in the muzzleloader season. I am good with that. Your argument is just as far fetched. Maybe their should be no muzzleloader season after all they were originally the military rifle of their day right? I say do away with all extra seasons and just have one 3 days long so no one gets their feelings hurt. I mean after all shouldn't i be able to use my 30-06 during bow season it is limited to iron sights by me and i consider that primitive and traditional. After all my grand daddy hunted deer with his. See we can all be argumentative to argue and nit pick everything to death. I was trying to get some good conversation going on the subject of today's modern made replicas and the new inlines. The argument that there were inlines before are mute due to the fact they all had a exposed ignition system . IN MY OPINION ANYWAY. But I digress, thank all of you who took the conversation serious and didn't act like spoiled children.


Andy

[Ajax]

The question never was about if inlines are muzzleloaders i am not saying they aren't? They are just not what i consider traditional. We are lucky here in Pa to have a flintlock only season aswell as a muzzleloader season. regs read:

Flintlock Muzzleloader Season: Flintlock ignition, single-barrel
long gun, 44 caliber or larger, or 50 caliber or larger handgun, using
single- projectile ammunition. It is unlawful to use telescopic sights.
Peep sights are permitted.


October Antlerless Muzzleloader Season: Any single-barrel muzzleloader
long gun with flintlock, percussion or in-line ignition, 44 cal.
or larger, or 50 cal. or larger handgun. Scope sights permitted.

[Col4570]

Its all about not interfering with any ones choice of traditional or modern firearms.There are those who will adhere to guns that are in the spirit of the original Muzzleloaders and those who have a modern rifle that muzzleloads.On the subject of equipment to make them,there where some very sophisticated tools used as there where some primitive tools used to make some wonderfull guns.

[newton]

I hope I am not being lumped into a childish perspective for asking very valid questions. I take this very serious because of the way I view it. But if my view point is not what yours is, does that make it childish?

the whole of the gun is what makes it what it is. How it is made, how it is handled, how it is shot, and how it looks. You cannot separate a gun apart from any of those things. Your original question was not "do inlines look like traditional muzzleloaders". If that had been the question, I would have voted no.

[Ajax]

You can not have it both ways. My question is, is it just me or does anyone else not understand how these are considered TRADITIONAL muzzleloaders. I understand they have their purpose but I feel they are more of a modern rifle than a muzzleloader. I am not trying to offend anyone, your preference doesn't matter to me just the nomenclature does. NO WHERE did i mention muzzleloader season in that question. I was just referring to some thing i had heard at the range where a guy was explaining to his friends who were non shooters how his CVA wolf inline was a traditional muzzleloader because it loaded from the muzzle. I asked the question here without context for a reason i didn't want to influence anyone's reply. Instead it turned into a argument (which I regrettably commented on) the use of inlines for hunting.

[starmac]

Just today one of them there traditional inline muzzleloaders, brand new used to me, came in the mail. This one may not be a traditional muzzie though, cuz it doesn't have a ramrod, and it is only 32 cal.

Did they even make 32 calibers way back when Daniel Boon was toting one, cuz I got a side hammer one last week, exceptin it isn't traditional either, cuz the hammer is on the opposite side of my other one. I am about to think there just ain't no sech a thing as a traditional muzzle loader. lol

[beroen]

I forget which forum it is, but I have heard of one that pretty much bans anybody that mentions an inline. lol I am glad this one at least let's us fuss about them. lol
Where I want to join

[johnson1942]

next we are going to talk about chevy verses fords. just shoot the guns and have fun. their are a lot of nice bucks out their this year, go get one.