View Full Version : 30 cal Sabot's and 22 cal cast boolits
02-06-2008, 05:53 PM
So the other day while having a few beers dinking around in the re-loading room AKA the “garage” and staring at my modest ammo collection I get kind of fixated on a 30/30 accelerator round that I have, and think to myself, why couldn’t a guy buy a bunch of those sabot’s and load them up with cast bullets and blast them out of my Stevens 325 and see how they shoot? So after a bit of digging around on the old internet, I find the outfit that sells the sabot’s and some “special” tool for seating the bullets into the sabot’s prior to loading into the cartridge. Supposedly the “starter kit” that contains 100 sabot’s and the tool also has appropriate load data for 30/30, 30-06 and 308. So after a few more beers and a careful nonchalant look over the shoulder to verify the Wife isn’t watching me peck the credit card number into the computer, I pull the trigger so to speak and ordered up a few hundred of these little bad boys to play with.
So my question to you fellows is this: what 22 caliber cast bullet will have the best chance of shooting accurately using these sabot’s in the 30/30? The rifling twist rate is 1 in 12 for the 30/30 I think, and is the same in many 22 cal rifles. I am also a bit concerned about cast diameter on these bullets and wonder just how critical it will have to be using the sabot’s? Do I need to size them down to .224 exactly to keep the pressures in line with the load data? And what alloy do I use? Supposedly the 30/30 load can fire a 50 gr bullet around 3400 fps. I am worried that kind of velocity and associated pressure might deform the **** out of a bullet cast from WW and am leaning towards using pure Lino, or maybe my “hardball” alloy that runs around 18 bn. Any opinions you would care to share would be appreciated.
Also, I searched around on the site and couldn’t find any applicable threads on this topic, but did see a few front stuffers chatting about sabot this and sabot that, but I am kind of off in another realm so to speak in regards to purpose and expected velocity, so forgive me if I placed this in the wrong category or overlooked a post that already covers this topic.
02-06-2008, 06:40 PM
We have been messing with it some. Have done 30/30, 308 and 06, mostly 06. You will have to size the boolits to .224" but it has little to do with pressure. The problem with larger diameter is they do not consistantly release from the boolit. When running over size boolits we find the sabots anywear from just in fron of the bench to all the way through the target. When running .224" boolits all the sabots are about 30' in front of the bench. You dont need that seater tool if you have a lube sizer. All you need is a .308" die and a top punch that fits the boolit.
We are using a 55gn CBE boolit sized .224" without lube or gas check. We got a top velocity from the 06 of 4300 fps but about 3 moa. At 4000 fps we get about 1 moa.
Forget about the load data that comes with the sabots. All I can say is that it is safe, but I think they dont know people have chronographs now. To get the accuracy and velocity it takes powders considerably faster than anything you would use in those cartridges with normal weight bullets.
We started with the load data provided and worked each powder to the limit and ran out of room before we got real speed. We just kept going to a slightly faster powder and do the same thing each time until we finally got to the right burn rate that would give the velocity with normal pressure and good load dencity.
We are casting from straight WW but we are quenching for these kind of speeds. We have taken some small game with them and they do just what you would think a 55gn boolit would do at 4000 fps MV.
Hope that help ya a bit.
02-06-2008, 07:31 PM
I tried them a few years ago in the 30-06. Results were not good, accuracy was terrible. I did NOT use cast bullets. I found that bullets with cannelures would some times hold on to the sabot and really cause accuracy problems. The bullet MUST be seated all the way to the bottom of the sabot.
02-06-2008, 07:51 PM
It would be easy to drill a mold and make a .22 boolit without grooves, and maybe a bit pointy to shoot with sabots. At those velocities, I doubt you'd have to worry about expansion.
02-06-2008, 08:13 PM
Thanks for the input guys, and Dan its nice to hear from a fellow Alaskan. I don’t make it up to Delta Junction very often, but the next time I am in your area I will call ahead and swing in for some bullet lube! Well, in regards to the sabot project, I think I will shoot them with some of the jacketed bullets I have on hand and see how they do before I dive all the way in and buy yet another mould……………..or maybe not……….perhaps I will thunk it over with another beer or two while fondling the magic plastic card with all those mysterious numbers on it………. Hmmmmm. Ok, so seriously now, I am not familiar with your acronym or abbreviation “CBE” in regards to your cast bullet………….yea, I know, I should probably know that one but I don’t. And also, would you be comfortable offering a 30/30 and 30-06 starting load that is more “realistic” than the published load data that comes with the kit? Specifically I am interested in the “faster” powders, you have mentioned as well as primers and brass used. I will of course take complete responsibility for my own actions and hold no other man responsible for my loads or the results there of, and I do use a Chronograph for all my load development and am very adept and recognizing excessive pressure sign’s. That being said, if you are reluctant to publish your load data for all the world to see, I will totally understand as I have a cast bullet, maximum effort, red-line 45/70 load that I simply will not give out for fear of a simple typo or transposition of numerals that would spell certain doom for the inexperienced loader. I know it’s safe in my particular rifle but……….. well, you know.
02-07-2008, 06:34 AM
If you need some .22 cast I can send you a few to try. All you have to do in return is post your range report here. I have thought alot about this but always seem to have too much other stuff going on to try it. I was thinking about using only one gun for the next year. The 06 or 30-30. From squirels to rabbits to deer.
02-07-2008, 07:56 AM
Please fill us in on your range report. I am also interested in cast bullets loaded into the sabots. I reloaded a few up with jacketed bullets for .308 a few years back. I never really tested them - I just took them out and blasted a few 2-liter soda bottles filled with water and frozen. After the fascinating thread on RPM limitations I'd be interested to see the feedback on a cast 22 cal bullet traveling upwards of 3500fps.
02-07-2008, 08:16 AM
I am now just sipping coffie and doing my morning check up. God willing later in the day I will dig into my load data and see what I can come up with.
How are things down your way? The last few days have been in the -50's here. About all I can do is stay in the shop and work, DRATTS! My list of excuses is worthless.
The CBE is for Cast Bullet Enginearing from down under. I got the mold about two years ago after I gave up on the group buy 22 mold that was then ongoing for 2 years(no offence Felix, I love ya Brother). It has become a favorite.
If you try jacketed bullets stay away from boat tails. The bullet/boolit base has to come close to filling the base of the cavity in the sabot. A gas check shank without the check didnt seem to hurt anything. Boat tail bullets were a total failier.
Also extra long bullets didnt work. My thought was that with the normal 1/10" twist the 06 should stabalise some of those 70 and 80gn bullets. What we found was that if the bullet bearing length was longer than the sabot they didnt work good. The best arrangment was when the bearing portion ended at the end of the petals of the sabot, ie, the ogive begining where the sabot ends.
Forgive me if I forget this later and feel free to remind me if I do.
Whenever you are up country stop in and as our moto says, shoot the bull.
02-07-2008, 11:33 AM
Here is some stuff I found,
case - FC
bullet - 53gn CBE qww @ .224"
primer - WLR
powder - 52.5gn H4198
OAL - 2.896"
AMV - 3968 fps
ES - 16
test group @ 100 yards 5 shots @ - 1.046"
I have some recorded velocities for other powders but this was our bets load.
case - RP
bullet - 22 Bator 6/1 WW/Monotype @ .224"
primer - CCI#250 LRM
powder - 38.2gn Scott 4197 (AA#2015)
no velocity listed
noted that this load shot to the same POI as 170gn 24gn 4197
case - RP
bullet - 63gn RCBS
primer - RP#2 1/2
powder - 30.5gn H 4227
noted as good load, MAX
For seating depth it seemed more important to have the petals of the sabot about half covered by case neck than any relationship between sabot and rifling. Seating longer so the petals had no support had a negative affect on accuracy even though the sabot may in this way be in contact with the rifling the way you would expect with a boolit.
Some of these little details were important to good consistant accuracy.
With the 30/06 load listed we were getting better accuracy than from Rem factory sabot ammo at the same average velocity fired from the same rifle.
The load gave good average accuracy from three differant 30/06 rifles we tried it in.
Have fun and be careful. All the usual warnings do apply.
02-07-2008, 01:03 PM
E.A. Brown carries those sabots. I don't know who else might. If you have a 1:12 twist, then you probably want to stay with 50-grain or smaller boolits for best accuracy. That "special tool" that they try to sell you is a piece of plastic junk. You will probably do better without it.
02-07-2008, 08:10 PM
Thanks again for all the suggestions guys, and Bullshop I sure appreciate the load data. We haven’t been nearly as cold as you guys but were running around -12 to -7 for the first part of the week. Heard that they set a record near you yesterday at -67!!!!! Oh my stars that is COLD! That’s like dark side of the moon cold, like colder than a witch’s…………no, no,……….colder than a brass monkeys……….OK, I’ll stop now.:mrgreen:
Mroliver77 I sure appreciate the offer of bullets, but I think I will go ahead and buy a mould. If it doesn’t work out for the sabot’s I have a couple single shot 223’s that I will use them in.
Mtnman31, fear not my friend, good or bad I will be sure to pass along the results of my experiments.
Now all I need do is pick a mould! Unfortunately the CBE mould that you use Bullshop is priced out of my range. Darn nice moulds they look to be, but more than I can spend on this project (got two rifles at the smith racking up bills as I type) so I am thinking Lyman or RCBS ordered from Midway USA. Any suggestions on the mould number I should consider? I am guessing that JIMinPHX is probably right about 50 grains being optimum and I have very good luck with both brand of moulds and don’t really have a preference but am for some reason thinking flat point or round nose but no pointy spitzers??? But I may just be falling back to my “comfort zone mentality” as that is all I cast for at present……….speaking of JIMinPHX…………don’t you need some boolit casting assistants for a week or so???? Bullshop and I can come down and “help” you for a couple weeks until this cold snap is over!!!!!:drinks:
02-07-2008, 09:36 PM
Mid South Shooters Supply has their .224 "Bator" mold for a reasonable price, it's a 2-cavity aluminum. It goes in and out of stock, if not there check back regularly.
I have a nice 57 grain .224 round nose from Lyman I picked up recently that I'm working up loads with, if you're mold doesn't show up in time be glad to send you some for experimenting.
02-20-2008, 08:36 PM
Well my sabot’s, load data (nice copy of a copy of a copy of a computer program print out that I don’t understand) and special “sabot seating tool” (two high tech plastic pieces) finally showed up in my mail box today! It took forever because I had also ordered a Lee crimp die for 375H&H and it was back ordered. So out to the re-loading room I went, beer in hand to begin my “experiment” in earnest! Unfortunately I didn’t have a singe one of the powders that Bullshop listed in his suggested loads for the 30/30, so I grabbed a handful of 30-06 brass and set out to duplicate his listed load. Only problem is that I don’t have H4198, but instead have IMR4198!! I know that these two powders are very close on the burn rate scale, but any powder substitution gives me the “willies” if I don’t have data to support it. So I dug thru all the reloading data I have and it looks like for any given load that list both powders they usually call for ½ a grain less of IMR4198 versus the H4198. So I took Bullshop’s data and backed down to 48 gr of IMR4198 and have loaded up single rounds in ½ grain increments all the way to 53 grains using Sierra 53 grain hollow point match bullets (hey its all I got at the moment) and will head to the range with the Chronograph and see what happens………..unless of course one of you tells me that my powder substitution is sure to blow my face off???!!!
Now to the “cast boolit” part of my post…………I would really appreciate some 50 to 55 grn cast bullets to try in this thing once I get the initial bugs worked out with my supply of Sierra jacketed bullets. I don’t really want to invest in another mould unless I have a fairly reasonable expectation of success with this project. I am thinking about 20 or 30 bullets aught to get me a good base line for my experiment and I would really like the oportunaty to try a few different cast 22 boolits before I commit to a mould. I could of course respond in trade with any of the following cast boolits:
Saeco 243 FJ4
My alloys are WW+4% Tin at about 13bn, Hardball at about 18bn, and pure Lino at 21bn
So if any of your guys are interested in making a trade let me know but please know that I am in Anchorage Alaska so shipping may become an issue for some of you.
Also, I have scoured the internet for hours on end in search of load data for this kind of thing and just cant find any usefull info. So if I could impose upon you guys one more time to add any information that you have, It would certainly be appreciated. As much deatial as you can please, as I am a bit of a “nervous nelly” with this project as it is well out of my experience pool and comfort zone.
Thanks again for anything you care to offer. Your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated and valued.:-D
02-25-2008, 03:45 PM
Hi I am new to this forum thing so please forgive if I do something dumb. I cast lyman 225415 that weighs approx 49 grains w/ gc and lube. I live on the outskirts of Anchorage (Peters Creek ). So, if you want some of these, pm me or call 688 3849 for buck and we'll figure out how to get you some. I also am very interested in the sabot for my 30 rem and a 308 and would be very interested in your results. I'm not sure I know how to use the pm thing so call if you like.
02-25-2008, 05:13 PM
The following is a screen capture that I saved from somewhere on the internet several years ago. It was probably from the Marlin Talk board when that was still in existence. I have not tried loading from this data myself. I was never able to find out where this data originated. 4000fps from a 30-30 sounds like a lot to me. Factory .30-30 Accelerators did 3275ish from my rifle. I recommend treating this data with skepticism & extreme caution. I am posting it for comparison only.
02-25-2008, 08:00 PM
If that data came from Oregon Mark, I say it's right on. That our Crazy Mark now days. When we first set up shop here, he couldn't get them to use his old name...hense the change. You guys might want to contact him and see if he has any updated data on those sabots...Geo
03-03-2008, 10:54 AM
P M sent with Sabot load data for 30/30 and 30/06 from USA Sabot manufacurer.
As stated, he included sabot reload data for 11 other .30 cal. ctgs.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.1 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.