Marlin 38-55's

[KCSO]

I’ve been working with the 38-55 lately and in particular with a new old stock Marlin I just got from Bill at Cabela’s. This is my second 336 CB Marlin, the first I got when the CB 336’s were introduced. In addition I have the tooling and gauges and have re-chambered and relined a number of 38-55’s with Redman liners. So here are some findings and opinions on the Marlin 38-55’s…
Chamber casts from both my early Marlin and the current gun show that the chamber is cut for the short or 2.082 case. The Starline cases in 2.120 will jam into the leade and should not be used in the Marlin rifles. In addition the barrels on both Marlin’s I slugged ran between 3795 and 380 in diameter. The Marlin chamber is cut with a reamer that leaves a tight chamber for the bore diameter. A Starline case loaded with a 381 diameter (what I would consider as about right for a cast bullet) bullet measures .3965 just behind the crimp and the chamber at the same point measures .399. This gives just under 3 thousands clearance for case expansion on firing. This is not dangerous but is a fairly tight fit. My old Clymer reamer cuts a chamber with just about an additional 3 thousands clearance. Where this becomes important is when you use older 38-55 brass or some of the new Winchester brass. The case mouths are thicker and you may need to ream the case mouth to get proper bullet release. If you don’t, you risk raising pressures as there won’t be enough room for proper bullet release. This is not a problem with factory loads as the bullets are all what I would consider undersize for the bore diameter and most throw a 376 to 378 bullet. These undersize bullets will show mediocre accuracy at best and in some cases (Jamison 38-55’s) the bullets will actually keyhole at 25 yards.
By contrast the Redman liners I used were offered in a .376 bore diameter and a .379 bore diameter so you can know from the git go what you are going to need. I have also measured several old 38-55’s including a Marlin Ballard pacific and Marlin 93’s and Winchester M94’s. None of them has a 376 bore and ALL were .378 to .382 in diameter. However the original Winchester 38-55 Mould that I used cast bullets of .376 diameter. This is because in the heyday of the 38-55 the black and semi smokeless powders used would slug up the smaller diameter bullet. Harder lead slugs used now days and smokeless powder reduce this effect.
The cures for these problems are fairly simple for the hand loader. I use a bullet that is .381 in diameter in a 379 bore. I load this only in the thinner and shorter Starline cases and keep my marlin cases trimmed to 2.080. I load a fairly soft slug of 1-30 lead to tin and use gas checked slugs for hunting where velocities can run up over 1500 fps. All cast bullets are seated to lightly engrave the rifling when fully chambered. What this does in effect is to give me a target chamber fit and my old Marlin with peep sights would shoot into 4-5” at 200 yards from a bench rest and would drop 8” steel plates out to 300 yards with no problem. This is from a light barreled repeating rifle and rivals the best groups I get from my High wall 38-55. I do adjust my dies so that the cases are not sized down too much. I de-cap by hand and size cases so that when the bullet is seated there is no bulge where the bullet sits in the case. In addition I lightly crimp the cases in the Marlin lever guns. With the tight chambers you have to watch the roll crimp with some brands of dies as the crimp will actually drag on the chamber walls and could cause problems extracting an unfired round. By the same token the bullets must not engrave too deeply on the rifling or again you will have problems shucking out the unfired rounds.

[Pepe Ray]

That was great. I just hope that all the "new fans" of the old gal
will read and reread your work report. You got it covered.
Pepe Ray

[KCSO]

I feel sooooo stupid!

I have been working on a round ball load for my 38-55 and even bought a 380 mould so I could work up with the right ball, as the 375 balls I had on hand were too small for the grooves of my rifle. I am shooting a 382 bullet and wanted at least a 380 ball. Well the new mould ran 376 balls and as I am bemoaning my fate I am putting 40 caliber balls into my bag for a squirrel hunt. Wait a minute! 40 caliber balls are .390 and I have a sizer! I sized up a batch of 390's to 382 and tumble lubed them. They have a small 1/10" shank on them from sizing so I started thumbing them down into my cases, then had another brain storm (here after refered to as BS) since they are tumble lubed they don't have to be inside the case. I seated them at the band and used a Lee Factory crimp and not only do I have squirrel loads that will cut a ragged hole at 25 yards, but they also feed through the action of my Marlin rifle. Sure wish I had thought of this 20 years ago when I shot a 94 in 38-55.

[stillhunter]

Very much appreciate the workup. I am going to get a Marlin Cowboy in 38-55 as my next project. I had a 1902 '94 with a decent bore that wasn't great, and have a H&R thats also mediochre. I,am beginning to wonder if you can get a factory gun with a 380 bore to shoot. Thank God the 45-70 is boringly consistant at 458. But no fun in it!

[eka]

KCSO, what kinda powder charge are you putting behind those roundball squirrel killers? Sounds like something I might be crazy enough to try as well.

What is it about killing squirrels that makes us get so inventive. I've tried harvesting them with black powder shotguns, bow and arrows, and now I'm in the process of getting up and running with a .32 muzzleloader. I guess the answer lies somewhere between fun and good eating.

Keith

[KCSO]

Currently I am using 4.5 of Trail Boss. That is a little more velocity than is needed for squirrels, but I don't need a filler either.

[hydraulic]

KCSO: Please don't shoot the squirrels up here in the northern part of the county; I've got $10 worth of ear corn invested in keeping them alive.

[Boomer Mikey]

I must have an oddball 336CB, mine has a groove diameter of 0.3755" and the short 2.080" chamber. The thicker Winchester brass works well with my bullets sized to 0.377".

The wide variation of chamber and groove diameter combinations in 38-55's makes it a necessity to make chamber casts and slug bores. Starline's new lot of 2.125" brass makes it much easier to get decent results with the original 1894's longer chambers and 0.379" - 0.381" groove diameters.

Thanks for the squirrel load, that sounds like fun.

Boomer :Fire:

[.38/55]

I am on a .38-55 kick as well...I called Marlin today to see if they still do the 30-30 to .38-55 conversions. $304 is the going rate to change everything forward of the receiver...I will be sending in my 336 for conversion this week...I will ask them to give me the bore and chamber numbers...:)

[Irascible]

Well, that is interesting. I didn't think that any factory actually chambered for the shorter case. I thought they were all chambered to take the long case for safety reasons. I've been shooting the long cases out of an old 94, a Ruger #1, a Browning 1885 and a Marlin CB thinking that I was doing the right thing for accuracy. Now, I'll have to make some chamber casts of the Browning (very accurate), the Marlin (poor accuracy) and the Ruger (so so accuracy). I know the old Winchester is safe with the long cases. I've been hording all the old ammo I can find to get the original length cases. THANK YOU STARLINE!

[Boomer Mikey]

I am on a .38-55 kick as well...I called Marlin today to see if they still do the 30-30 to .38-55 conversions. $304 is the going rate to change everything forward of the receiver...I will be sending in my 336 for conversion this week...I will ask them to give me the bore and chamber numbers...:)


Say Calvin,

Just get one of the 336 Cowboy models in 38-55. I prefer the straight grip, narrow fore stock and octagonal barrel. With the heavier barrel it balances nicely for offhand shooting. IMO these are some of the best Marlin made... the Cowboy models in 45-70, 444, and 38-55; the 444 Marlin CB's are rare.

Boomer :Fire:

[KCSO]

I put a Treebone stock set on mine and switched it back to the old 93 style with the rifle butt. I also worked out a conversion plate dovetailed into the receiver that will cover the side of the action and make the whole gun look just like the 93 with the strength of the 336. My current favorite load is a 260 gr. rnfp gas check bullet at 1800+. This shoots well to 200 yards or more and really drops deer.

[Steelbanger]

KCSO,

What powder are you using to get 1800 fps? I've got a high velocity load for my CB Marlin using a 260 GC Rapine bullet and IMR 3031 and just wonder what you're using.

Thanks.

[Buckshot]

..................I'm still kinda partial to my ole '93.....................

http://www.fototime.com/47DD87E404FADAE/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/34A89A527939537/standard.jpg

Now if Marlin would have tooled up to bring back the flat bolt REAL 1893, or maybe even the REAL 1895 they'd have had something. But no, they had to go and steal all the Savage ideas and come out with a bolt action. I like Savages, and the next time I think I need a bolt action it'll most likely be a REAL Savage and not some Marlin copy.

................Buckshot

[EDK]

Slightly off topic, but anybody got an idea on the number of 336 Cowboys in 30/30? I circulate past a few gun shops in the St Louis area plus a couple of major gun shows and have only seen 3 total.

First one was used...saw it, but was on my way to a visitation and didn't put it in lay-away. It was gone the next morning. $400.

Second one was almost $600, NIB at the local "high dollar shop." Passed on it.

Third one was NIB for $375. It's in the safe next to the 357, 44s and 45/70s.

I'd have thought they would have had excellent sales.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[6pt-sika]

Slightly off topic, but anybody got an idea on the number of 336 Cowboys in 30/30? I circulate past a few gun shops in the St Louis area plus a couple of major gun shows and have only seen 3 total.

First one was used...saw it, but was on my way to a visitation and didn't put it in lay-away. It was gone the next morning. $400.

Second one was almost $600, NIB at the local "high dollar shop." Passed on it.

Third one was NIB for $375. It's in the safe next to the 357, 44s and 45/70s.

I'd have thought they would have had excellent sales.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

I never really wanted a 336CB in 30-30 . I already had a few of the other CB models in variouse calibers .

But then when the 336CB 30-30 was taken from production I knew of a semi local shop that had one NIB . Now bear in mind this was about 6 years ago .

Anyway I went and talked to the owner . He had had the thing over a year and no one even bothered to look at it . So I bought the thing then for a OTD price that was a few dollars under 400 [smilie=1:

Now that rifle is my big bore lever silhouette rifle :drinks:

[Ranch Dog]

Nice topic and definitely in my area of interest. I've been looking for a reasonable Glenfield to buy and send to Jesse Ocumpah, a gunsmith in Cottage Grove, OR who will take a Marlin chambered in 30-30 Win and with $180 will turn it into a 38-55 Win. He cuts a 5-groove barrel with a rate of twist to your spec of either 1:12, 1:15, or 1:18.

I have a friend that just had the work done and he has a very nice shooting rifle. Performance and groups are great. I would like a 38-55 Win on the 336 frame with the 1/2 tube magazine, like my two Marlin 375s.

[6pt-sika]

..................I'm still kinda partial to my ole '93.....................

http://www.fototime.com/47DD87E404FADAE/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/34A89A527939537/standard.jpg



I've seen pictures of this old bird a time or two before and I thought I would tell you , when you're tired of it I'll be glad to take it off your hands [smilie=1:

[Four Fingers of Death]

Right decent of you 6pt. :)

[Bret4207]

Dang Buck! Those pics make me want to go get my Savage 99 30WCF half octagon out of the shop. Nice gun.

[Buckshot]

..............When the time comes I doubt my heirs will have any problem moving that good ole rifle on down the line :-)

I really cannot see why Marlin couldn't produce the 1893 again. They did at one time when there was no carbide tooling, no cnc equipment and high level investment casting wasn't even dreamed of. I'm sure a reproduction (would it BE a repro?) would sell. To me, the current round bolt rifle just doesn't have the same attraction. So long as we're wishing, lets also have it available in color casehardening ..............at least as an option?

...............Buckshot

[6pt-sika]

..............When the time comes I doubt my heirs will have any problem moving that good ole rifle on down the line :-)



At least you have heirs :(

I have no children or brothers or sisters :roll:

[6pt-sika]

..............I really cannot see why Marlin couldn't produce the 1893 again. They did at one time when there was no carbide tooling, no cnc equipment and high level investment casting wasn't even dreamed of. I'm sure a reproduction (would it BE a repro?) would sell. To me, the current round bolt rifle just doesn't have the same attraction. So long as we're wishing, lets also have it available in color casehardening ..............at least as an option?

...............Buckshot


I'm not to happy about the new bolt gun either !

I would have been happy if they had just brought the 336XLR out in the 32 Special .

I was for sure when I saw Hornady was bringing the Leverevolution out in 32 Special this year that we would see a 336XLR in 32 Special , but alas it was not to be :(

[Denver]

I had visions of having a 336 rebarreled with a 30-30 CB barrel, (mainly because I had heard so many bad stories about the 38-55 chambering), so bought a nice '52 vintage RC that had not been D&T'd only to find out when I called Marlin that "we don't work on guns older that 1956 because they're just too old". That's a quote from the lady that answers their customer service line.
Before I'd pay Marlin over $300 to unscrew one barrel and screw on another that likely won't shoot worth a crap because of an oversize bore, undersize chamber, crooked chamber, and any number of other issues, I'd pay the extra and have it rebarreled by a competent gunsmith who would stand behind his work. But that's just my 2 cents, YMMV.

[Boomer Mikey]

Most of the issues with the 38-55 chambering is that many owners won't take the time to make a chamber cast and slug the barrel. Although this should be "standard practice" with all rifles most can get by or get lucky in other chamberings.

The biggest problem is Winchester's decision to make brass for the 38-55 and 375 Winchester the same size and a few gunmakers that decided to use 0.375" barrels and non SAAMI standard chambers. Current 2.125" long Starline brass resolves many of the chambering/accuracy issues for rifles with original SAAMI chambers.

Our society has been taught to criticize and never forgive a manufacturer for a few bad products that reach our marketplace. IMO Marlin does a great job of delivering rifles that the general public can afford with much better than average accuracy capability. Microgrove rifling was given a bad reputation for poor accuracy with cast bullets too, but that's been proven to be wrong as well. I haven't found a Marlin 336 or 1894 yet that won't shoot well unless it's owner ruined it and with a little TLC worked fine.

Winchester's have similar issues, they're very fine rifles as well. I have many leverguns made by Rossi, Winchester, and Marlin. All of them will shoot with reasonable accuracy but the Marlins in general shoot better groups and are easier to maintain. That doesn't mean I like the Marlins best, just that I respect their product and the thousands upon thousands of good rifles they've made compared to a few with isolated issues.

Take your 1956 Pontiac to the dealer and ask them to put a new motor in it for you. I believe you'll get a similar response.

Boomer :Fire:

[felix]

Gosh, man, you missed it by one year! Everyone wants a 57 Star Chief, right? A MOTOR will be found pronto. ... felix

[Boomer Mikey]

Gosh, man, you missed it by one year! Everyone wants a 57 Star Chief, right? A MOTOR will be found pronto. ... felix


Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember the 56 and 57 Pontiacs too, but at least I can.

Boomer :Fire:

[45 2.1]

Gosh, man, you missed it by one year! Everyone wants a 57 Star Chief, right? A MOTOR will be found pronto. ... felix


My first car, bought new by my Mom. Leather seats, lotsa chrome and a 350 under the hood. Ahhhh, i'd like to have it again.

[Irascible]

"The biggest problem is Winchester's decision to make brass for the 38-55 and 375 Winchester the same size"
I don't think that's true. the 375 case at 2.020" is about the length of the 30-30 and 32 Spcl (2.040"). It is shorter than W-Ws current crop of 38-55 and 32-40 (2.080") which were brought out with their comemoratives. All are shorter than the original 38-55 case at 2.125".

[WBH]

OK.....so what length brass does my original 1893 Marlin 38-55 use?
2.080 or 2.125?

[Buckshot]

OK.....so what length brass does my original 1893 Marlin 38-55 use?
2.080 or 2.125?


................The longer ones.

..............Buckshot

[Irascible]

Marlin will only convert the later 336. My son called about cowboying a 336RC and they asked the serial # and said no, too old. I'm sorry, I do not remember where the breaking point was.
I'm using 31-32gr of H322 to get 1850-to 1900fps
My Marlin CB will accept the long original length brass from W-W, Remington-Peters or Starline.