Not Quite Enough

[milkman]

I imagine that we have all wondered where the line was on how big the boolit should be and how fast we had to push it to reliably take an animal.
I loaded my 30-06 with a Lee 113f cast of range scrap, over 8gr of Green Dot with a velocity of slightly over 1500fps, and set out this afternoon to see what I could stir up in Arkansas' modern gun doe season. I was hunting close to several houses and I wanted a quiet load that wouldn't stir up a lot of hate and discontent, and I really wanted to see how that load would perform on a heart shot. I knew it was a light boolit and not moving too fast but I thought it would be adequate with careful shot placement.
It was approaching 7:00 PM, the light was going and I was just about to give up when does began filing under a large oak directly in front of me, I stopped counting at 7 and began concentrating on a medium sized one which was about 25 yards from me. BUSTED... she saw something that she didn't like and was getting very nervous. She wouldn't give me a broadside shot, but kept facing me every few seconds and trying to get me to move so she could spook. When she looked to the side I put the cross hairs on her neck right behind her head and pulled the trigger. She ran off...... What The Heck... I knew that I had made a good shot.. I checked the ground where she had been standing and found some blood, so I knew that I had hit her. I got my flashlight and began following the blood trail through heavy brush, after about 30 yards I found where she had fallen and a large blood covered area, she made it to her feet and went about 10 more yards and another large bloody area, then at 60 yards I found her dead. I had hit where I aimed, it had gone in right under the spine, cutting an artery. The spine was not touched and there was no exit. The boolit stopped in the middle of her neck after only penetrating about 2 inches, and I have not been able to find it to see what it looked like. I managed to kill her as dead as I possibly could, but it was dumb luck to hit that artery. Next time I will try a heavier boolit and a little more velocity.

[dlbarr]

Thread: Not Quite Enough (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256574-Not-Quite-Enough)
Well, apparently under the circumstances, it was just enough.

But, yeah, probably should go abit heavier & faster next time. At least your experiment gave you some answers.

[richhodg66]

In my not so extensive experience, a 170-180 grain cast .30 caliber at 1800 or so FPS works fine if you shoot through the lungs. They'll go all the way through, even at a pretty good angle and put them down fast.

Congrats on the deer, though. Sounds like it was still a pretty quick kill.

[Lead Fred]

The 45/70 @1400fps knocks them over in their tracks

[milkman]

I am still amazed that at about 1500 fps that little boolit only penetrated half way through her neck without hitting anything but skin and muscle. If I hunt in that spot again I will use "enough gun" and not worry about the noise.

[Dan Cash]

In my not so extensive experience, a 170-180 grain cast .30 caliber at 1800 or so FPS works fine if you shoot through the lungs. They'll go all the way through, even at a pretty good angle and put them down fast.

Congrats on the deer, though. Sounds like it was still a pretty quick kill.

2000 to 2200 is more better. Milkman, I am glad you got your deer and have learned a valualbe lesson regarding enough gun. I hope other members here who adhere to the light and slow school take heed. I lost one deer in my 50 years of hunting and am still ashamed; for me, a .243 was not enough gun and it went away.

[Sensai]

I'm thinkin' that it's the weight that didn't do the job for you. Even at lower velocity, a 170 grain boolit will penetrate a lot more than two inches. You can get some pretty good terminal ballistics without a lot of noise by going with heavy and slow; light and slow, not so much. Just my two centavos :wink:

[19112TAP]

That's kind of strange. I use a 115gr in 32-20 @ 1600 avg vel. and have yet to find my bullets on three does shot behind the front shoulder at less than 50 yds. A couple of years ago I was skinning out a rather large buck for a friend to have mounted and found two jacketed bullets of .243 dia. no more than 1" to 1 1/2" under the skin in the upper neck area, I dug them out to give to him and asked what he was shooting. His answer was a 300 win mag and he had spinned him in the middle of the back. We figured that someone was probably trying to spot light him before season.

[44man]

Noise! Reminds me of the time I touched off my .475 at a deer in the morning. I was on my neighbors land but the other neighbor's house was a little over 100 yards and He and his girlfriend fell out of bed at the shot! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
Next thing, he is coming through the woods hollering for me. We had a good laugh over that.

[45 2.1]

You were basically shooting a 32-20 with that load. A lot of deer and other things were killed by such a load. The smaller and weaker you go, the better you have to place the shot where it does the most good..... and that usually requires the shooter to understand what it does if placed there along with the consequences if done poorly.

[MBTcustom]

You brought enough gun Milkman, your only error was that you didn't put a hole in anything the deer needed in order to RUN.
If you think about it, the deer needs only a few things in order to foil a DRT scenario:
Air, moving blood, and signals from the brain to make these two things happen. You failed to imobalize any of the three immediately.
Your shot eventually deprived the deer of the blood it needed to keep going, but a better shot (and one I have made many times) would be to stick the slug between the eye, and the ear, which would shut down the electrical signals to everything south of that point.

I think the reason your shot only penetrated 2" is because you were shooting into a heavy muscle at the very end of the deer's neck which can move very easily and absorb more energy. There was not enough support to the tissue for the boolit to travel through any deeper. I suspect that had you gotten a broadside shot, your boolit would have lodged itself on the opposite side of the deer's body after popping both lungs and clipping the heart. It may even have passed all the way through.
Organs are much easier to shoot through than heavy muscle, especially when most of the organs you are shooting through are full of air.

[waksupi]

You just need a heavier boolit. Would you shoot a deer with a 113 gr. jacketed bullet? I wouldn't.

[grrifles]

I killed 3 deer last year with 300 blackout loaded with 245 cast at about 800fps. I had hollow pointed them some with drill. One was a good sized Arkansas buck. All shot thru top of heart and none ran more then 30 yards. All shots were pass thrus.
Using same load this year but with supressor. It's stupid quiet.
Chris

[Sensai]

Aw you guys !! Everybody knows that the 32-20 don't follow no stinkin' rules! :bigsmyl2: I'll still stick to heavy and slow being better than light and slow. [smilie=1:

[NVScouter]

I was playing with a 1900fps 30-06 load and that boolit. Drops with GC at 124g and was very accurate. I thought about does with it. My limited testing showed it expands well and would go about 75% as deep as 160g cast. I've taken deer with a 125g .308 with good results.

2" penitration and no recovered boolit? 3/4" higher and a broken neck would have dropped her.

I don't like most neck shots for no organs, small bones, swiveling head movement, etc. Should have shot her between the eyes or in the chest for a close head on.

[aspangler]

Try the Lee 170 gr and 39-40 grains Imr 4895. DRT is an understatement.

[starmac]

Using that boolit in an 06, pretty much goes against everything I think I know about cast. I can see the quiet thinking, but am thinking stick and strings for quiet. lol

[runfiverun]

weight is your friend.
i personally think the 7mm is just too small with cast to hunt with [great with jacketed though] and the 30 + cals are best really.

[truckjohn]

If you want quiet - go subsonic + HEAVY bullet....

With your '06 - that gets you up to 220 grains easily.... and a big, long, heavy bullet like that penetrates like crazy....

Personally... If you are going for "Don't bother the neighbors" and "Backyard" type shots....

1,000 fps + 220 grains = dead....

I have fooled with stuff like this - and it generally has absolutely no trouble killing....

It usually sounds like a pop-gun going off....

[milkman]

I'm still not satisfied with how that 113g boolit penetrated versus how it should have performed. I know that faster, or heavier slower both would have worked better, and I have rifles from .243 through 45/70 and bullet weights up to 500g, but, Dang It, 113g at 1500 fps should have penetrated better than it did. I really don't think it would have put her down if I had hit the spine without taking out an artery and I seriously doubt that it would have penetrated her skull. Something is not right. I need to check the chrony results again, maybe it was traveling slower than I thought. Or maybe the soft lead mushroomed immediately and slowed it down too quickly for it to penetrate. At any rate it is an experiment which does not need to be repeated.

[quilbilly]

That lack of penetration surprises me as well. I have a T/C Contender in 32-20 using the same boolit at the same velocity and it gets 15 or more inches of penetration into soaked compacted phone books at 40 yards in my own terminal ballistics test. I must admit I have not used it on anything larger than coyotes.

[birddog]

Well the bottom line is it did not penetrate as well as expected. Where as any heavy bullet for the caliber 35 above traveling 1000fps will anchor most whitetails quickly.
Charlie

[M-Tecs]

I loaded my 30-06 with a Lee 113f cast of range scrap, over 8gr of Green Dot with a velocity of slightly over 1500fps.

Lyman #4 shows 13 grains of Green Dot at 1792fps for a 115 grain bullet. I question if 61% powder charge will get to 1500fps. With the same shot a 22LR will pass through.

[NVScouter]

Well I happen to have two fresh deer heads and a chrono. I'll have to see what my alloy does

[MBTcustom]

I'm still not satisfied with how that 113g boolit penetrated versus how it should have performed. I know that faster, or heavier slower both would have worked better, and I have rifles from .243 through 45/70 and bullet weights up to 500g, but, Dang It, 113g at 1500 fps should have penetrated better than it did. I really don't think it would have put her down if I had hit the spine without taking out an artery and I seriously doubt that it would have penetrated her skull. Something is not right. I need to check the chrony results again, maybe it was traveling slower than I thought. Or maybe the soft lead mushroomed immediately and slowed it down too quickly for it to penetrate. At any rate it is an experiment which does not need to be repeated.

Unfortunately, despite our best efforts to build a humane and effective hunting load, R5R's signature line holds true, even in a hunting situation. I still hold that the deer's neck and the dense muscle in that area might have played a big role in "catching" that boolit.

[milkman]

Goodsteel, you may very well be right, I am going to get my metal detector and go over the area where I cleaned the deer and see if I can find the boolit. I would love to see what it looks like, whether it is mushroomed or not. At least this experiment answered the question, " how low can you go". 8 grains Green dot with a 113 g boolit is definitely the bottom for me.

[milkman]

NVscouter
I would love to know what you find out.

[truckjohn]

I think find the bullet - then you will know what happened....

I can think of a couple ideas....

1. Primer issues... I have run through too many primer issues now that I test my loads both in hot weather and in cold weather... With a couple specific primer brand/types - I found up to 500 fps difference between hot and cold weather performance... and it was 100% primer related....

2. Lead alloy/hardness for the velocity.... Penetration with cast bullets surprisingly is INVERSE to velocity... The higher the velocity - the shallower penetration because of mushrooming and bullet break up... and SLOWER velocities end up with greater penetration...... Sounds contrary - but it's the facts...

3. Bullet path... The fact that the bullet apparently only went 2" - but you can't find it maybe says something... There's a chance that the bullet deflected in the flesh and went "Wandering".... Back in the days of round ball shooting - it was not uncommon to find bullets traveled FEET within an animal - wandering hither and yon along some random, impossible path.... so a clean Neck shot ended up with the bullet going through an artery, down the wind pipe, into the lungs, around in the guts - and finally, stuck in the tail hair....

[NVScouter]

Milkman even if my test shows 10" penitration Murphey's Law is always present hunting. My old butcher showed me a jacketed .30 bullet lodged in a deer artery for a couple seasons. He found it in the pelvis but it had a healed neck wound.

Last year when my friend shot a small whitetail with a .243 and 100g bullets the neck blew out. We gave him **** for the bad shot until we skinned the deer. The round went in right behind the shoulder, into a lung then went straight up through the spine and out the top of lower neck.

Sometime "it"'just happens

[runfiverun]

Sometimes the old velocity variation thing pops up too

[milkman]

R5R,
That thought keeps running through my mind also, lots of "what ifs", and with recoil so light it would be hard to detect less than full velocity, especially in a hunting situation.
I really wish I had checked her wind pipe better, the thought of the bullet turning and going through the esophagus never occurred to me, but the hole ended directly above it.
I did check where I cleaned her with a metal detector and could not find the bullet, so unless it bled out the entry hole, it is probably still in her somewhere.

[MBTcustom]

I don't suppose you have a gut pile you can wave your metal detector over do you?

[milkman]

Goodsteel
Well yes I do, but then if I found something in there i would have to wash my hands again and I just washed them yesterday. Do you know how expensive soap is??

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel
Well yes I do, but then if I found something in there i would have to wash my hands again and I just washed them yesterday. Do you know how expensive soap is??

No sorry. Never mess with uppity stuff like that, but I assume it's pretty expensive.
Wait, are you saying I need to wash my hands after rummaging through a gut pile?!?!
Man. All this time I had no idea. I usually just wipe my hands on my pants and try not to touch my face for a few hours.
LOL!

[Smoke4320]

No sorry. Never mess with uppity stuff like that, but I assume it's pretty expensive.
Wait, are you saying I need to wash my hands after rummaging through a gut pile?!?!
Man. All this time I had no idea. I usually just wipe my hands on my pants and try not to touch my face for a few hours.
LOL!

between the dog and me we just lick them clean :) :)

[NVScouter]

NVscouter
I would love to know what you find out.

Ok just finished testing.

My Lyman 3rd edition shows 11g of GD in a 26" 1-10" 30-06 122g boolit @ 1773fps and th 113g over 13g @ 1792fps

My LEE 133g sized checked and lubed weights 124g. Your load of 8g is 38% below minimum load data. I just sold my 30-06 so I stead I used two .308s. Load data shows the .308 with GD and a 120g boolit at 11g = 1683fps to 15g = 2012fps 26" barrel. The same powder charge in the .308 is about 150fps faster.

Both 1-10 Ruger Americans a 20" and 24" barrel.

The 20" barrel 8g chronograph at 1410fps

The 24" barrel 8g chronographed at 1361fps.

I chose the 20" for final shot. Test medium was a mule deer neck wrapped in 4" of elk trim meat and fresh elk skin/fat.

test shot was 25y 62F

[NVScouter]

Test set up was neck water jug, second water jug then OSB 1/2" thick. http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/D1B3D15F-4867-49F8-860B-6DB3E323EDD2.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/NVScouter/media/D1B3D15F-4867-49F8-860B-6DB3E323EDD2.jpg.html)

shot hit lower spine with a complete .30 caliber groove complete pass through. Boolit exited neck and passed through both water jugs lodging backward into OSB.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/30C9D36A-6E45-428E-A55F-3C86E4E8A963.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/NVScouter/media/30C9D36A-6E45-428E-A55F-3C86E4E8A963.jpg.html)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/32EDD710-EBB4-423A-AF71-8F80B898B4FA.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/NVScouter/media/32EDD710-EBB4-423A-AF71-8F80B898B4FA.jpg.html)

further examination showed straight on boolit path but tumbling into second jug. Recovered boolit was 109g .41caliber.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/AF39515D-E54C-4D36-BEE9-3D35D9AF7B48.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/NVScouter/media/AF39515D-E54C-4D36-BEE9-3D35D9AF7B48.jpg.html)

[NVScouter]

My conclusion.

A 30-06 124g cast over 8g GD and 24" barrel has a likely MV of 1100fps not 1500. Impact velocity at 25y slightly over 1050fps. I bet that was a quiet load for sure. By 100y it's around 925fps.

If if it had need doing 1500fps like my short .308 was close to and the shot good I firmly believe it would have been DRT. A 1460fps load has the same energy at 175y as yours had at 25y. But the load was still a tad light, recoil was solid and accuracy was good.

Where did the 8g 1500fps load calculation come from? You may have been bitten by a faulty chrono.

[Digital Dan]

Not to speculate about the bullet or load as there are other questions that remain open and I don't know they are really relevant to me.

There have been several comments here related to heavy versus light and fast versus slow etc. Fairly certain I'm not going to engage that either. Some of you may have seen a thread I started some time ago about pig shooting with .22 RFs. Well here's a few pics, draw your own conclusions.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2953_zps5684c330.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2953_zps5684c330.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zpse097a38d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zpse097a38d.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/Tidbit003_zpsfbbcc745.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/Tidbit003_zpsfbbcc745.jpg.html)

In case you have trouble reading the label on the ammo box, they are CB Shorts. 29 grains as I recall, nominal velocity 710 fps at the muzzle. On broadside shots they will pass thru and thru the neck, including vertebrae. Front shots such as pictured above, they will exit the skull on the back side and be found in neck muscle 4-6" behind the skull. Every time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/DSCN0520_zps7db471ca.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/DSCN0520_zps7db471ca.jpg.html)

I don't know what happened with the deer discussed in the OP, but it doesn't add up to me. Deer don't have anywhere near the mass of muscle in their neck that hogs do.

[MBTcustom]

I don't know what happened with the deer discussed in the OP, but it doesn't add up to me. Deer don't have anywhere near the mass of muscle in their neck that hogs do.

Yeah, but a pig can't move his head like a deer can either.
Not to be argumentative, and certainly things don't add up, but have you ever wrapped a bullet "proof" vest around an immovable object and had at it? It's relatively easy to shoot through it with even light loads.
Conversely, I'm thinking that the deer's neck is whippy, and possibly able to "catch" the boolit like a bullet proof vest if you will.
I know it sounds crazy, but I have been incredibly surprized by a deer's ability to react in a blink of an eye. I'm thinking that the deer saw the boolit coming and while it was unable to get out of the way, the boolit was moving slow enough that the deer was able to whip it's neck when the boolit struck and "catch" the boolit.
Just a theory.

[Camba]

"...I loaded my 30-06 with a Lee 113f cast of range scrap, over 8gr of Green Dot with a velocity of slightly over 1500fps..."

I wonder if the bullet disintegrated on impact due to range scrap lead too soft at 1500 fps?
I have killed deer in south America with 22LR (a place where you are not allow to have a "weapon of war" except 22LR and shotguns) and I had some pass through, some neck shot busting the neck bone, head shot, and hart shots. That's why I think the 113f boolit may had been too soft to perform. Or, it may have come in and out tangentially and still busted the jugular vane.

BTW, "weapon of war" = any centerfire rifle/pistol caliber gun. 22 mag is in the gray shaded area of that category.

Camba

[Digital Dan]

Yeah, but a pig can't move his head like a deer can either.
Not to be argumentative, and certainly things don't add up, but have you ever wrapped a bullet "proof" vest around an immovable object and had at it? It's relatively easy to shoot through it with even light loads.
Conversely, I'm thinking that the deer's neck is whippy, and possibly able to "catch" the boolit like a bullet proof vest if you will.
I know it sounds crazy, but I have been incredibly surprized by a deer's ability to react in a blink of an eye. I'm thinking that the deer saw the boolit coming and while it was unable to get out of the way, the boolit was moving slow enough that the deer was able to whip it's neck when the boolit struck and "catch" the boolit.
Just a theory.

Sure 'nuff, deer have much more mobile heads than hogs.

Nope, never shot a vest. Have shot several tons of hogs and more than a few deer. I don't see any significant difference between penetration with any bullet on either species.

A little yield due to a retreating contact point will make little difference. Deer's neck moving at 5, 10, 15 fps isn't significant. If the OP's assertion of velocity is even remotely close, and his range estimation is in the ballpark, the deer would have had approximately .05 second for a reflex reaction. I'm having a little trouble accepting that.

Pure speculation on my part, but the only thing I see as a potential cause is an aberration in the load which rendered a substantial difference in velocity from what was expected.

Camba, I don't think soft lead is an issue either. I've been shooting deer and hogs with pure lead paper patch for some time. It holds together and penetrates quite well. The CB shorts I referenced above are in the 7-8 BHN range, or just a little harder than pure lead. At the velocity they are shot at, admittedly much lower than the OP's load, it is clear they hardly expand at all, even after penetrating two layers of bone. My paper patch loads leave the muzzle at about 1600 fps on average (chrono verified) and they do expand a lot, but manage between 16" and 24" of penetration depending on how much bone they hit.

Paper patch bullet recovered from a deer that broke both forelegs, 2 ribs in and 3 on the way out. Recovered weight 292 grains out of 300. Under the hide on the off side. Same bullet on a hog was recovered under the hide on the offside hip after breaking the front shoulder, a half dozen ribs, 5 vertebrae and the hip was also right at 290 grains.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg.html)

[milkman]

NVScouter
Thanks for the info. That was a great test and showed a lot closer to what I was expecting with my load. I wasn't worried about long shots, and had already set 40 yards for maximum range. In my mind I anticipated complete penetration on a broadside shot and the neck shot should have been DRT, real life was different. Quickload shows over 1450fps for the 8g of GD, and I am not sure at this point if I chronoed it or not.
I did take the metal detector to where I hauled the carcass at the rear of the property next to a woodlot. I wanted to see if it had deflected and was still in there somewhere. The carcass was gone. Not dragged , no fluids on the leaves, no scraps or hair, no bones or disturbed leaves, just gone like it was never there ???????

[milkman]

Digital Dan
Lower velocity is the theory that I am leaning toward at this point. I used dacron in the load, and i am wondering if I didn't use enough in that particular shell and some of the powder mixed with, or got in front of the dacron, if that would create lower velocity. I was using a powder scoop, so I am confident the correct amount of powder was placed in the brass.

[NVScouter]

How did the load feel when shot? In the .308 it had a sharp firm recoil. Enough to make me curious about GD in the carbine in the higher recommended data area.

Im going to bet a chrono shows quick loads to be off. How about angle of shot?

[NVScouter]

You just need a heavier boolit. Would you shoot a deer with a 113 gr. jacketed bullet? I wouldn't.

For my last shot I used a 120 JHSP over R7 @ chrono 2,540fps. Dead center hit at 25y.

Expansion on shows a .32 caliber hole entering meat through skin that went to .85 in 1" then it hit the neck bone. Hit vertibre smashed into small pieces. Meat on exit splattered with neck bone halves thrown 4-9' 3" hide exit. Bullet base with jacket was caught in the first jug weighing 42g.

I also put a head up and my between the eyes shot at 100y left a 4" channel tapering from .50 to 2.75" with complete exit.

Both DRT but anything shot into meat would be bloodshot for days.

Either of these loads I'd use in a pinch but I have better loads to hunt with.

[44man]

Some are just using not enough, deer are tougher then some think. I found this in the neck of a deer I shot. 119461 Yes, a .22 LR, fully expanded with green infection starting. Enough to expand with zero penetration.
I have killed many deer in PA with .22 boolits healed in the rib cage after passing through the lungs.
Too much expansion is no good either.

[popper]

Milkman - that's about 2x the terminal energy of a 165gr 40 cal @ 30 yds. Boolit loses most energy in neck muscle and nothing left to punch through the opposite hide. Lung shot probably would have been better. A boolit loses ~ 1/2 of it's energy just in mushrooming. Nothing left to punch through the other side. Pounds force may be there but psi to puncture isn't.

[pls1911]

Heavy, slow, and quiet...
45/70, 300 grain bullet, Unique propellant, 34" barrel Sharps or Rolling Block.
Pressure peaks long before bullet exits barrel, velocity is subsonic, and range is about 30 steps.
DRT with shoulder/spine shot, and muzzle report is about like clapping hands.
Penetration? Hah..oh yeah, plenty for our little whitetails.

[44man]

Heavy, slow, and quiet...
45/70, 300 grain bullet, Unique propellant, 34" barrel Sharps or Rolling Block.
Pressure peaks long before bullet exits barrel, velocity is subsonic, and range is about 30 steps.
DRT with shoulder/spine shot, and muzzle report is about like clapping hands.
Penetration? Hah..oh yeah, plenty for our little whitetails.
Can't see much wrong there. I used too hard in the BFR 45-70 revolver, lost two deer with a 317 gr at 1630 fps. Found one at 200 yards with pink lungs and a little hole. Went to a WFN and still found the deer at over 200 yards. At 1300 fps, the boolit would do better.
I shot many deer with the .45 Colt at 1160 fps, better then the 45-70 with the same alloy. But do not soften too much with the 45-70 or you will have a grenade.

[milkman]

I rechecked velocity with the chrono- only about 1200fps, still 3 times the weight of a 22 LR with the same velocity. And yeah, I know now and knew then that almost any combination of faster and/or heavier would work better, I was just trying to see if 113g of 30 cal lead and 8g of Green Dot were "enough"--- They weren't.

[44magLeo]

It some times surprises me at some of the things that happen when a projectile hits a deer.
One day while I and a friend were hunting, I was about 75 yards below him as we still hunted through the woods.
At the time NY could only use shotguns. We both carried 12 ga's. I like Federal slugs, he preferred Remington.
Any way, I heard him shoot and then heard the slug passing through the tree tops out in front of me.
I went to see what was going on. He hit the deer with a good shoulder shot. The slug turned and exited out the top of the shoulder.
Upon cutting the deer up the shoulder was cracked but not broken.
A 12 gauge slug is a very good penetrator. Most times at the 40 yards this deer was hit would have broke both shoulders and exited.
Why didn't it this time? Only the Red Gods know.
Leo

[fastdadio]

I once shot a doe at about 70 yds with a 12ga Breneke slug. Hit her perfectly in the eye on a broad side shot. Most of us here would bet the paycheck that that premium slug would have taken the top of her head off. But nope. As stated above, she "caught" it. Knocked her out but didn't kill her. No blood or exit wound. The slug richoched off the back of the skull and traveled down the throat. The poor deer actually came to and got up while I was standing there trying to figure out what just happened. A second shot finished the job quickly. I think this story stands to reinforce the theroy that the deers neck has some elasticity and is able in some cases to absorb the shock of the bullets. Look what happens when you "limp wrist" an automatic pistol.

[M-Tecs]

Unless you hit the brain or spine it's amazing how much damage a deers head will take. Not a fan of head shots on deer.

[truckjohn]

I rechecked velocity with the chrono- only about 1200fps, still 3 times the weight of a 22 LR with the same velocity. And yeah, I know now and knew then that almost any combination of faster and/or heavier would work better, I was just trying to see if 113g of 30 cal lead and 8g of Green Dot were "enough"--- They weren't.

At 1,200 FPS - you are supersonic... That means the bullet hits before the sound gets there.....

If the deer "jumped the gun" - it wasn't from the gun going off... The bullet would have hit well before the sound got to her ears.... It's not like "Jumping the string" bow hunting where the sound gets there well before the 340 fps arrow...

I still think you just need to move up to a heavier bullet... say in the 170-200 grain range...

Thanks

[starmac]

I do not understand the concept of trying to see how low you can go on game. Is it to reduce recoil? I am just trying to understand the thinking behind it. I have seen modern high velocity basically blow up on impact, more or less leave nasty flesh wounds, because of the way certain bullets are built. We are shooting cast, and it works well with the right weight/velocity, but we need to take every advantage we can, in my opinion.

[olafhardt]

I have read a lots of commentary about stopping power. I think many of those posters should read this thread and learn something about shooting real live critters rather than gelatin, phone books etc.

[1Shirt]

You were lucky, and hopefully you learned from the experience. My absolute minimum with a 30 cal would be at least 150 gr. and 17-1800 fps and a max of 50 yds.. Just my opinion!
1Shirt!

[afish4570]

I am still amazed that at about 1500 fps that little boolit only penetrated half way through her neck without hitting anything but skin and muscle. If I hunt in that spot again I will use "enough gun" and not worry about the noise.



Learned years ago the same thing. Friend finished a nice 10 pt buck off with a .357 125 gr. Rem. JHP....great defensive load.The deer took two shots in the neck from 24" or so fired from a 4" barreled pistol. Slugs flattened out to the size of a dime and both were found against the skin of the off side. Another instance of poor boolit choice was one hunter friend shooting a nice 8pt. with a 150 gr. from a 35 Rem (green bx. Rem.) at 60 or 70 yds. Deer ran off 100 yds. before another hunter finished the job. Seems the 150 gr. 35 bullet hit shoulder and blew up a large superficial wound that would have eventially proved fatal. I prefer a larger boolit that is proven and not spend all day tracking or losing an animal....afish4570

[GhostHawk]

You don't think a deer can see a muzzle flash and outjump the bullet? I do if the bullet is slow.

All it has to do is drop down half, and start a spin to either left or right and the target is no longer there when the bullet arrives.

Or jump HIGH, same result.

I can't say I've ever seen a deer do it with a rifle, but shotgun and slugs, ohhhh yes.

I can also understand why you would load down rounds for a gun. But I don't think I'd ever use one of my light loads on a deer unless I was starving and had no other way.

[milkman]

Starmac
The reason for the light load was the area it was being used in. Retail stores on 2 sides, about 200 yards distance, and houses on the third side, about the same distance. Heavy wooded, brushy areas between, so no danger of bullets carrying through and anyone being hurt, especially as I was shooting toward the ground. I did not wish to stir up a lot of fear and resentment by shooting full powered loads, even though they are legal in the county. No one pays much attention to a pop, but they sure do when their teeth get rattled by an -06 at 2800 fps. I have hunted the area for about 50 years and hate to quit, but I think a crossbow is a good alternative at this point. ( I took a nice 5 point with it last Thursday) Lots if deer in suburban areas.