Strange rusty cloud when pouring powder

[Rick45Colt]

So I am working up different loads of 357 and I a was going to use some IMR 4227. It just so happens that I have 3 cans on my shelf and the one I started to use gave of a rusty cloud when pouring into the powder measure. So I removed it and tried a different can but did not get the cloud this time so I loaded my rounds. Should I worry about the other can? The can looks perfect no rust or dents or anything.

[pjames32]

Rusty usually means the powder is dead or dying. I would use it for fertilizer on your roses. I assume no acetone smell in the rusty can.
YMMV

[CastingFool]

Powder may be going bad. How did it smell, in comparison to the other cans? Powder will develop a reddish dust, and start smelling vinegary when it's getting old. How much is left in the can?

[smoked turkey]

I have always thought that the rusty cloud you spoke of along with loss of the original strong smell and possibly some powder clumps was an indication that the powder was bad and should be discarded. I know you didn't mention the smell and powder clumps but I think it all pretty much goes together. We will see what other opinions you get on this. If it were me I would probably discard it.

[Dusty Bannister]

A whole lot of information on checking for deteriorated powder is in the archives.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-166686.html

This is one of many links that may be beneficial.

[SlamFire1]

Gunpowder is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound from the day it leaves the factory. Gunpowder lifetime is very unpredictable, but rules of thumb for powder lifetime is 20 years for double base and 45 years for single base. This will be wrong more often than right, but it is a rule of thumb. The lifetime of gunpowder is so unpredictable that first world countries spend lots of money having ammunition specialists monitor and test their stockpiles. Third world countries are so broke they just let the stuff self ignite. Just google Ammunition Depot explosions: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ammunition+depot+explosion Basically one ammunition depot is going off somewhere in the world.

As gunpowder deteriorates it outgasses fuming red nitric acid gas. That stuff eats up metal tin cans. If you have enough rust that you see rust in the air, the powder is old and deteriorating. Powder also breaks down to a dusty consistency and if you are seeing powder dust, the powder is old and deteriorated. Old gunpowder will blow up your gun due to burn rate instability. I recommend dumping your powder.

This is an excellent thread on old ammunition: When Mil Surp ammo goes bad http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?230264-When-milsurp-ammo-goes-bad

[Frank46]

I had a can of IMR 4320 go bad. Was going to reload with it but when I opened it up(was sealed when I bought it) had degraded and the whole inside of the can was badly rusted. And as suggested it makes good fertilizer for the lawn. Frank

[Hannibal]

There is a new set of "Stickies" in the Frequently Asked Questions section toward the top of the main Forum page. One is on powder going bad. I think you'll find it worth a look.

[243winxb]

Some Metal cans rust, some dont, even with the same lot number. Put your powder in a plastic container. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?162108-Bad-Powder-pictures

[ravelode]

Had that happen with a lite purple can of IMR 4895 once back in the early 90's. Red powder and the inside of the can rusted. It blew the extractor on my M-70 30-06, case lost the primer and had a belt:holysheep. Also had to have the barrel set back as the gun would close on a no-go gauge.

[Dutchman]

http://images52.fotki.com/v640/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF1541bp-vi.jpg

http://images61.fotki.com/v536/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF1545bp-vi.jpg

http://images38.fotki.com/v1213/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF1544bp-vi.jpg

http://images12.fotki.com/v197/photos/2/28344/1676633/DSCF1542bp-vi.jpg

[ColColt]

I think storage has all in the world to do with preservation. I have a tin can of Winchester 630 that looks and smells like it did when I bought it and no rusting on the can. I've got an 8# container of Unique(looks much like that can of RL-7) that's tin on the top and made of cardboard and it likewise looks the same. Both of those were bought sometime in the mid 70's and always kept indoors under temps of 70-75 max and no deterioration of either. An even older can of Hodgdon's 3F black powder in a tin can that goes back to around '72 still looks and smells as it did. There's probably only a couple hundred grains left in it but still good.

[Fritz D]

For what it's worth . . . I fired this group last month (Rem 40-XB-BR, .308 Win, 168gr Hor. H.P.B.T.) with some IMR 4895 that I bought in the early 80s. It was in one of the old style (purple) metal cans. The inside of the can was rusty and there was definitely "red dust" when you poured it. The powder had been stored the whole time in my house. Other than the dust, the powder looked fine, no clumping or anything like the photos in Dutchman's post.

I'm not suggesting that anyone go ahead and use powder that is obviously deteriorating . . . just saying that I've done it (with several other IMR powders too) and I'm still here to talk about it. YMMV. And yes, I am a cheap SOB.

119326

[Char-Gar]

So I am working up different loads of 357 and I a was going to use some IMR 4227. It just so happens that I have 3 cans on my shelf and the one I started to use gave of a rusty cloud when pouring into the powder measure. So I removed it and tried a different can but did not get the cloud this time so I loaded my rounds. Should I worry about the other can? The can looks perfect no rust or dents or anything.

There is no need to over think this. Dispose of the rusty cloud powder in a safe manner. It does make a good plant fertilizer.

[.22-10-45]

Few years back, a can of IMR 4350 showed rusty dust & acrid smell..got rid of it and decided to check all cans..some from early 1970's. All were stored in wooden drawer in dry basement..one can of IMR 3031 felt hot! Check those older powders now...good way to burn down a house!

[ColColt]

I'd be interested to hear as to why it felt hot.

[prs]

There is no need to over think this. Dispose of the rusty cloud powder in a safe manner. It does make a good plant fertilizer.

But don't use it on your cabbage! Might give it a headache. ;-)

prs

[Cmm_3940]

Rusty usually means the powder is dead or dying. I would use it for fertilizer on your roses. I assume no acetone smell in the rusty can.
YMMV

I keep hearing this fertilizer thing over and over.

I've read that while black powder is high in nitrates and makes good fertilizer, this is not the case with nitroglycerine or nitrocellulose. Something about the smokeless powder not breaking down in such a way as to be useful as fertilizer. Is this not true?

[303Guy]

I'd be interested to hear as to why it felt hot.If it was in a metal can then that would be cause for concern! If it were in a card container as some were then it would feel hot because it's an insulating material. I'm assuming it was a metal container. Powder becoming hot with age would explain the fires and explosions at old ammo storage facilities. But what would make it hot? (Obviously it's the powder decomposing but what process?)

[Cmm_3940]

Oxidation.

[Motor]

I have seen IMR cans do this. As soon as I read the title I knew it was a IMR can.

I had some 4320 that had the "dust". I poured it into a old white cotton "T" shirt and shook it around. Sure enough the cotton collected the majority of the rust dust. The powder was in good condition. The inside of the can was only mildly corroded. I put the powder in a plastic powder container and later used it. It performed just fine.

A friend had a new unopened can of IMR-4831. It had rust flakes in it and the inside of the can was badly rusted. This one we dissposed of.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have seen IMR cans do this. As soon as I read the title I knew it was a IMR can.

I had some 4320 that had the "dust". I poured it into a old white cotton "T" shirt and shook it around. Sure enough the cotton collected the majority of the rust dust. The powder was in good condition. The inside of the can was only mildly corroded. I put the powder in a plastic powder container and later used it. It performed just fine.

A friend had a new unopened can of IMR-4831. It had rust flakes in it and the inside of the can was badly rusted. This one we dissposed of.


For what it's worth . . . I fired this group last month (Rem 40-XB-BR, .308 Win, 168gr Hor. H.P.B.T.) with some IMR 4895 that I bought in the early 80s. It was in one of the old style (purple) metal cans. The inside of the can was rusty and there was definitely "red dust" when you poured it. The powder had been stored the whole time in my house. Other than the dust, the powder looked fine, no clumping or anything like the photos in Dutchman's post.

I'm not suggesting that anyone go ahead and use powder that is obviously deteriorating . . . just saying that I've done it (with several other IMR powders too) and I'm still here to talk about it. YMMV. And yes, I am a cheap SOB.

119326
I'm with Motor and Fritz.
as long as the powder isn't bad smelling or clumpy.

A few years ago, I also had a old steel can of IMR powder (4831).
some red dust in there. I emptied the can and noticed the inside of the can was rusty, outside of can looked OK. using a large shallow bowl, I swirled most of the red dust out and put the remaining gunpowder (it wasn't clumpy or bad smelling) in a 'repurposed' plastic gunpowder container. I worked up some 30-06 test loads and was quite happy with the results...so I saved that powder for future use. YMMV.

[Multigunner]

I pulled down some 7.62 NATO ammo that had badly corroded cases and put the powder in an old empty Dupont IMR steel powder can.
The powder had a strong ammonia odor (like cat pee).
A couple of months later I remembered the can of bad powder and went to dispose of it.
The lower portion of the can at the level of the powder had completely disapeared leaving a mound of very fine brown dust mixed with the spilled powder.

Reddish brown residue has been mentioned as a sign of powder degrading.
A few years back a disgruntled employee sabotaged some cans of powder at a factory (don't remember the manufacturer possibly whoever makes RL powder?). A few people who got those cans said the powder had turned to a red muck.

The standard shelf life of modern double base military powders is considered to be 25 years before the Carbamite stabilizer loses its ability to absorb the products of decomposition.
Carefully stored ammo may not become dangerous for some years after the carbmite is expended, but poorly stored ammo may begin to break down within days regardless of stabilizers.

7.62 NATO ammo from some countries is especially suspect because as a cost cutting measure they loaded these with old stock powders leftover from the 40's or earlier. Sometimes they had bought up surplus German powder made in WW2 or earlier and not very well made at the time.

[.22-10-45]

Concerning that can of powder that felt hot..yes it was the old metal can..bought in early 70's. There were a few U.S. and British battleships shortly before or right after turn of 20th century that had explosions/fires from the early non-stable smokeless powders decomposing...(hot/damp enviroment?). I suppose that the IMR3031 after 30 some years was doing the same thing.

[ColColt]

These are my oldest containers from about 1972-1978. I guess I've been lucky as there is no internal or external signs of deteriation. Still, I don't use them so maybe the best thing to do is get rid of them in some fashion. There's aoubt 2 pounds of that old Unique left and very little of the others...less than half a pound.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3100a_zps0151eee3.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3100a_zps0151eee3.jpg.html)
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3101a_zps152aafd9.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Misc%20Stuff/_1DF3101a_zps152aafd9.jpg.html)

[gnoahhh]

All this talk of powder going bad leads me to surmise that the cure for keeping powder from going bad is simple: don't let it get old. Shoot it up fer pete's sake!! :):)

[44man]

The cans shown look fine.
I have to tell you the truth, I have been shooting 3031 that is fine, original can rusted outside so I put in a Hodgdon plastic jug with a new label. Smells and looks good, works fine.
This is the can I used in my .222. That was 59 years ago!
I still have 1/2 of the huge red metal cans of red dot that is even older. A 12# jug and it is still good.
Kept cool and dry, I would not toss powder, you can tell if it is bad. I still have some Alcan powders at least 61 years old. My can of Bullseye is marked $2.75.

[ColColt]

I've got a can of Red Dot also and the can and powder look as good now as it did some 35 years ago. I still believe it's all in how it's stored.

3031 in a 222?

[44man]

My house in Ohio was damp and is why my can got rusty but here I keep the basement at low humidity, my meter says 36% right now. Never goes over 72* either. It really is how you store.
Knew a guy down the road that shot BP, we went over once to find his cans of Goex on the picnic table. They were full, found he was scared to death of the stuff, went through rain, sun and snow!