45-70 crimp question

[Jevyod]

I was out working on my first cast bullets for my 45-70 and I ran into a problem. First off, the gun is a new 1895 SBL. The bullets I used were from my Accurate 460-415V powder coated and sized to .4595 My brass is once fired Remington, trimmed to 2.095. The problem I have is in the position of the crimp groove. If I seat to the groove, my OAL is 2.540. I tried to chamber these, and I could not. I could put some pressure on the lever and force it into the rifling. So I adjusted the length to 2.505 and now it chambers fine, but I am beyond my crimp groove. So what are my options? I remember reading somewhere that if crimping without a crimp die, getting a factory crimp die which applies a taper crimp is a better option than using the roll crimp with the RCBS die. Or should I just apply a roll crimp? I did try that, and if I held it upside-down and hit my bench with it, it didn't seem to move. However, when I got a 18 inch scrap piece of 1x1, I could drive it farther into the case. So should I just call that good enough, or what should I do?:-?

[Iron Whittler]

In my limited loading experience for my 45/70 which is a bolt rifle, a firm crimp is needed to keep rounds in magazine from changing COAL due to recoil. If you can line up with crimp groove, fine. If you can not then crimp where needed to get seat depth correct. With cast boolits, roll crimping on driving band is quite acceptable. When using J word boolits, roll crimping in the crimp groove is desirable. To make things easier, Get a Lee factory crimp die. This will put a firm crimp where you want it, groove or no groove. It works on both cast and jacketed equally. I hope this sheds a little light for you. Iron Whittler

[pworley1]

I use a factory crimp die and crimp them wherever needed for tube feeders.

[plainsman456]

For sure get the crimp die.
Money well spent for the 45-70.

[dh2]

what if you use Hornady LEVERevolution brass it is a bit shorter than standard spec. I use a redding die to crimp because it is shorter.

[waco]

Lee factory crimp die is going to squish lead boolits down to "jacketed" size. I would steer clear of it. Just MHO.

[41 mag fan]

Waco is correct on using a FCD. It will size your casts down this deforming them and making them prone to inaccuracy and possibly leading the barrel. Sounds like a short throat, the same as my Browning 1886 had. You do have a few options here. Have you tried cycling a factory round? My Browning would cycle a factory just fine but not any of my casts. What I did though, and this is a word of caution, was to have my throat reamed out to accept the 425gr RFN.
On the word of caution. .. make sure you have a reputable gunsmith, that you either know their reputation or they have very solid references. Mistake 1 on my part. .. the guy said he used to work for gander mtn... what he didn't tell me til it's been over a yr too late is he got fired for messing up to many guns.
Mistake 2 is I should of done more in depth studying on throat reaming.
What this Smith done was took my rifle. .. ran the reamer thru the chamber and took out a little at a time and cycled the round thru till it seated. .. he should of taken the barrel off put it in a lathe and reamed it that way.
Or the other way was to use a Chamber reamer and perform the throat job that way..
But if that's what you need to do, make sure you use a reputable smith... you don't want to end up like me. I've got a $1000.00+ rifle with a possible crooked throat that might be getting a new barrel. . depending on what this gunsmith professor I'm taking it to next week decides.

[725]

Shorten your case.

[Wayne Smith]

Shorten your case.

That's the easy solution. You can even buy them shorter - thus turning a problem into an advantage!

[Char-Gar]

The RCBS 45/405 GC was designed for the Marlin levergun in 45-70. It is superbly accurate and feeds through the action as slick as you please. Sometimes the easy way is just to buy a new mold!

Most of the 45 cal rifle bullet molds around were designed with various single shot rifles in mind.

[plainsman456]

If you use the crimp die as it is intended it should just crimp where the crimp ring is on the bullet.
If the brass is shorter just adjust the die downward a little.
I had to do this with some of the Hornaday brass.
Been shooting a 325+- grain up to 2000,gas checked with no problems.

[Jevyod]

So how short can I shorten the brass? Can I go down to 2.080?And will shorter brass not affect pressure? I will definitely start at the bottom and work up.

[Ricochet]

I've used Remington brass for years. Loaded some of a friend's Hornady cases and couldn't get my Lyman seating die to crimp them at all. When the die's right down against the shell holder, the crimping ledge wouldn't touch the case mouths. The Lee Factory Crimp Die does have a section of the collet below the crimping edge that sizes the neck of the loaded round. Not a problem with jacketed bullets as it's sized for loaded rounds with them, but it can size down larger cast boolits. To avoid that, put the case mouth just into the top of the LCFD and operate it. It will only pinch the case mouth. That also works to crimp other cartridges you don't have a die for with similar neck diameters, and you can also use it to crimp on gas checks without sizing boolits.

[Hannibal]

I've used Remington brass for years. Loaded some of a friend's Hornady cases and couldn't get my Lyman seating die to crimp them at all. When the die's right down against the shell holder, the crimping ledge wouldn't touch the case mouths. The Lee Factory Crimp Die does have a section of the collet below the crimping edge that sizes the neck of the loaded round. Not a problem with jacketed bullets as it's sized for loaded rounds with them, but it can size down larger cast boolits. To avoid that, put the case mouth just into the top of the LCFD and operate it. It will only pinch the case mouth. That also works to crimp other cartridges you don't have a die for with similar neck diameters, and you can also use it to crimp on gas checks without sizing boolits.

Can you please expound upon this? clearly I'm missing a detail here. Are you saying to run the cartridge in nose-first from the top? I don't follow?

[Ricochet]

Exactly.

[Hannibal]

Wow. Who'd a thunk it? Thank-you! :drinks:

[fouronesix]

I'd suggest trying the Lee FCD with whatever 45-70 your are loading before jumping to conclusions or running blindly with posted suggestions. Looking at a Lee 45-70 FCD and running a Trapdoor fired cased (the largest chamber I have for comparison) into it from the bottom shows no evidence of the unnecessary neck sizing others are talking about. Plus, I seriously doubt you'll be using (or need to for that matter) seriously oversized bullets in a new rifle anyway. Plus how in the world is the depth and alignment controlled if holding and crimping from the top of a FCD?

All dies including the Lee FCD have limitations as to specific application. For tube mag rifles that require a crimp, the roll crimp shoulder in the seater die works very well if adjusted correctly and the case length is consistent. Likewise the Lee FCD does well for most uses requiring a crimp and is less case length sensitive than the roll crimp shoulder.

[Ricochet]

Wow. Who'd a thunk it? Thank-you! :drinks:You're welcome. Try it, you'll like it.

[stubert]

The factory crimp die for 45-70 does NOT resize the entire case. It uses a 3 jaw collet that only crimps the mouth of the case. However, the factory crimp dies in pistol calibers WILL resize the entire case, and swage the bullet down. Avoid them.

[BK7saum]

Yes, the pistol and rifle factory crimp dies are two different animals.

[Ricochet]

Yes, that's right. But if you take out the collet and look at it, in many rifle calibers (I haven't seen them all, but on all I've seen) the collet has an edge at the top to apply the actual crimp, and a larger neck sizing section below it that's primarily there to straighten out any bulges. In some cases that might size down larger than standard diameter boolits, as the pistol dies most definitely do. It hasn't been a problem for me with the rifle dies.

[Frank V]

I have crimped above the cannelure using Remington JSP bullets for years to get them to run through a Marlin. It's no problem really, I'm crimping just at the junction of the ogive & this has worked for me for a long time.
The 95 action length won't let us use some of the longer bullets unless they are seated deeper.
I've even read of some deep seating 500gr bullets in the Marlin & getting good results.
When deep seating you need to reduce your powder charge as seating deep decreases powder space in the case.
Good luck, let us know how it's going.

[TomAM]

#46-415V has a .09" long front band, which is long enough that it enters the Marlin's tight throat. It's undersized (.456"-diameter) in order to do that. It sounds as if powder coating has increased the diameter enough to hang things up.
It's possible that running the boolit nose first into a .455 sizing die just enough to reduce the forward .05" of the front band will solve the problem.

[longbow]

I must be in the minority for sure. My first .45-70 was a custom Siamese Mauser conversion and I ran loads as hot as it would take which were somewhat hotter than I could take many of (young and dumb at the time!) and I never crimped a round and never had any trouble with boolits wandering around changing COAL... at least as far as I could tell.

My next .45-70 was a 1970's Marlin 1895 and the story is the same. I never crimped and had no troubles. I have to think neck tension was enough to keep things in place.

I do not have a .45-70 currently or I would go test that out to be sure but I never saw any negative effect of not crimping.

Longbow

[Jevyod]

#46-415V has a .09" long front band, which is long enough that it enters the Marlin's tight throat. It's undersized (.456"-diameter) in order to do that. It sounds as if powder coating has increased the diameter enough to hang things up.
It's possible that running the boolit nose first into a .455 sizing die just enough to reduce the forward .05" of the front band will solve the problem.

Thanks Tom! I should have thought of that:roll: I used a micrometer and measured the front band. As cast it was looking like .4555. After powder coat it was running a strong .457. I took a piece of sandpaper and took the band down to .456 and it seemed to chamber fine.

[MT Chambers]

Ya know, I spend enough time, slugging bores and chambers, buying sizers for the Star and RCBS to the closest 1/2 thou., lubing, sizing to get everything right, use in-line seaters for accuracy.......then I'm going to run it into a die and squash the bullet and case??? C'mon Man!!

[Jevyod]

Ya know, I spend enough time, slugging bores and chambers, buying sizers for the Star and RCBS to the closest 1/2 thou., lubing, sizing to get everything right, use in-line seaters for accuracy.......then I'm going to run it into a die and squash the bullet and case??? C'mon Man!!

So are you suggesting that I don't crimp? I was under the impression that for a tubular magazine it was paramount to crimp.:veryconfu

[MT Chambers]

So are you suggesting that I don't crimp? I was under the impression that for a tubular magazine it was paramount to crimp.:veryconfu Of course you crimp those loads in the 45/70(unless it's a single shot) that's what your properly adjusted seating die is for.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Where did all this BS about Lee Rifle FCD's sizing cases come from?

They don't do this!

They have nothing to do with this.

It doesn't work this way.

All it does is crimp the case on the leading edge as the collet is forced into the taper in the die body .

There is no case sizing feature on the Rifle Dies!

The FCD's that can "post size" the case are all for strait wall pistol rounds like .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9MM etc. These dies also Taper Crimp these cases. The entire reason for this function on these rounds is so that they will chamber in any auto pistol.

Dies for Revolver rounds like 38/357, 41 .44 and .45 work the same way except they Roll Crimp instead of taper crimp.

A quick trip to the Lee Website will answer all of your questions about these dies. They are the correct source for this information.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/factory-crimp-die/

There is a lot of BS on this subject on the Internet, all you have to do is go to the Lee site and read and re-read the information until you understand it.

That way you don't dub in your "interpretation" of how the system works.

Don't be like the ladies in the E-Surance Commercials on TV.

Learn to understand what you read.

This is the problem here, not the tools.

Randy

[MBTcustom]

Where did all this BS about Lee Rifle FCD's sizing cases come from?

They don't do this!

They have nothing to do with this.

It doesn't work this way.

All it does is crimp the case on the leading edge as the collet is forced into the taper in the die body .

There is no case sizing feature on the Rifle Dies!

The FCD's that can "post size" the case are all for strait wall pistol rounds like .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9MM etc. These dies also Taper Crimp these cases. The entire reason for this function on these rounds is so that they will chamber in any auto pistol.

Dies for Revolver rounds like 38/357, 41 .44 and .45 work the same way except they Roll Crimp instead of taper crimp.

A quick trip to the Lee Website will answer all of your questions about these dies. They are the correct source for this information.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/factory-crimp-die/

There is a lot of BS on this subject on the Internet, all you have to do is go to the Lee site and read and re-read the information until you understand it.

That way you don't dub in your "interpretation" of how the system works.

Don't be like the ladies in the E-Surance Commercials on TV.

Learn to understand what you read.

This is the problem here, not the tools.

Randy
Because people who use FCDs on pistols are thinking that it's the same for rifles.

For the record, the pistol style FCD is not necessarily a problem either. it's not the crimping part that sizes your boolits down, it's that doggon carbide ring that the brass passes through. If you use a diamond hone to open that up, then you can crimp to your hearts content without sizing down your boolits inside the case. If you follow the links that W.R Buchanan posted, you will notice the gold colored ring in the bottom of the pistol die? That's the culprit.
conversely, the in the other link you can see that the design of the die negates the possibility of installing a carbide ring in the first place, and further, the die uses a "collet" feature to apply a crimp much like the Remington factory ammo has on it.

Oh and Randy: Lighten up man. It's an easy mistake to make.

[MT Chambers]

If all you are doing is crimping, then why not crimp with the seating die? Too many drinking the Kool-aid on here.

[MBTcustom]

I would just like to echo Longbows experience as well. Of course, I'm not shooting full house loads, but I have never had boolit setback ever, and I'm not a big fan of crimping in the first place. There's an aweful lot of boolit in that cartridge to be pushed back.
That said, I could easily see it if your particular die set doesn't squeeze the brass down as far as mine does.
I use RCBS and Lee die sets, and they both size the brass the same amount.

Conclusion?
Shoot more man! Notice what happens when you do, and make changes accordingly!
There is no rule that says you have to crimp. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. This is lead. This is BOOLITRY. We don't do things blindly. We do everything for a reason, and we understand what that reason is.
Have at it! I love the 45-70.

[Motor]

I think they are suggesting that the collet will squeese the boolit below the raised section that does the crimping.

I think post #17 has it correct. Try one and measure it.

I think the best suggestion here was to trim the case length so the mouth lines up with the crimp groove at the desired C.O.A.L.

[Jackpine]

One caution with shortening the case. Depending on your die, you may not be able to adjust it down far enough to crimp a shortened case.

While I like an use Lee FCD on many calibers, I don't think one is necessary to solve your problem. Just seat the bullet deeper and crimp. As long as you are seating into the bullet before the taper starts, you should have no problem. Using almost any smokeless powder, you have a benefit in deep seating in that you make for a more efficient case, just like a 38 special will be more efficient with the same powder charge than a 357. I have seated many big bore rounds and many thousands of 38 special cast bullets where they were crimped somewhere other than the crimp groove.

Question for MT. How hard are you crimping to compress the bullet and how much does it change the diameter of the bullet?

Jackpine

[Jackpine]

MT Chambers, are you out there. Did it really compress the bullet, or are your statements just based on speculation?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tim: I'm down to an even 200, that's lighter than I used to be. [smilie=p:

Randy