Bad Accident!!

[Swamprat1052]

A friend on my Varmint Hunting site posted this and I think everyone that shoots should see it. This ole boy is the one that made all the videos on setting up and loading with a Lee Loadmaster, I used his video lessons when I set mine up. He really pulled a boner and shot himself.


http://negligentdischarge.com/

He has a website dedicated to safety with pictures and updates on his recovery.

Swamprat

[cohutt]

Yeah, he posts over at GT as DarwinT. Posted pics the day after, wanted to remind us it can happen. Takes some pride swallowing to go public with it, good of him to do.

[jleneave]

I checked out his website and felt pretty bad for the guy. Hope he heals up good with no problems down the road. I too have become a little complacent at times, but after reading his story I think it will renew my safety consiousness(sp?).

I remember one time when I was about 18 or 19 yrs old, I had a Ruger Super Blackhawk in an old western style hoster with the cartridge loops and all. I wanted to learn how to fast draw and shoot from the hip, so I started practicing it starting off slow and getting faster the more I practiced and actually got half way decent at it. I could hit gallon milk jugs full of water sitting on the ground at about 10 to 12 yards consistantly. Then the last time I ever shot fast draw I drew my pistol and it went off just as I cleared the holster. It blew a huge hole in the ground right beside my right foot!!! It scared the holy sh!* out of me and that was the last time I ever fast drew!! I was dumb and dangerous when I was a teenager, it's a wonder I have made it as long as I have!!

[happy7]

A little over 20 years ago, I did the same thing. Accidentally discharged a pistol while sitting at my table. Fortunately for me, all i shot was my kitchen cabinets. But I am glad it happened. Since then I have never taken safety for granted. The first thing I do when I pick up a gun is check to see if it is loaded and unload it if I am not planning to shoot. And I figure the golden rule of gun safety is pointing the muzzle in a safe direction. If you get that one right, it can make up for messing up on the others, but they all should ALWAYS be adhered to.

If you don't believe it could happen to you, I think you are an accident waiting to happen, because that is when you get complacent.

[crabo]

A friend of mine put a .25 auto in his pocket, it went off. Went through his right leg, his middle leg, and stopped in his left leg. He wanted to show it to me, but I wouldn't look.

Crabo

[georgeld]

So far, I haven't had any self fired gun accidents.
BUT, was 15, in the middle of an old Ford p/up chasing coyotes the way we "used" to do it here in SE CO. A/hole on the right had his '06 muzzle up and it fired. Not only hit the back window frame. It fired between our shoulders. Smoked our face's and at 64 my ears are still ringing quite loud.

Muzzle down damn it!!!

Three cousins went pheasant hunting, all drinkers. shotguns laying on the back seat. One behind the other that opened the door and drug a hammer type out by the muzzle. IT went off, blew his belt off, bruised his hip pretty bad. Brother behind was hit near center in the elbow and lost his arm. He was one of the best automatic transmission builders that ever walked.
A couple years later a judge threatened him with a long term lock up if he used 'that deadly weapon" (hook) in another fight!!

Hope this guy heals up. Damned lucky it didn't hit his knee. Sure looks like jacket pcs to me. Those I'd think they'd want to cut out of there to save the cutting from the sharp edges. But, over time, unless there's nerve's close to them. They'll develope scar tissue around them.

Twice in elk hunting camp at a ranchers house guns were discharged at the kitchen bsing table. One big bore out thru the ceiling and roof, no harm. The other was a .22 pistol of some kind that hit the table within two inches of another guys knee leaning against the edge. Both times I was still out hunting yet, and I was the youngest of the bunch!!

Was cleaning the mud out of Dad's old '63 Scout getting it ready to sell and uncovered an until then unknown shotgun hole blown out the R floor. Looked like it was inline, or close to being inline with the right front tire.

Scary stuff to me.

[osage]

Swamprat thanks for the link. Sent that on to some fellow shooters. Good of him to self report on it.

[No_1]

A co-worker of mine in Va. did the same thing. He was quite worried until the middle leg came out of shock. From that point on he was known as "**ck-almighty" around the shop.

R.



A friend of mine put a .25 auto in his pocket, it went off. Went through his right leg, his middle leg, and stopped in his left leg. He wanted to show it to me, but I wouldn't look.

Crabo

[Junior1942]

A friend of mine had a hunting dog who would ride cage-less in the back of the truck. One day, the hunt over, my friend lay his shotgun in the back of the truck. Then he lowered the tailgate so the dog could jump in the back. A mile or so down the road and headed home, the dog's paw somehow released the gun's safety and pulled the trigger. The charge went through the bed of the truck, through the cab, through the back of the seat, and into my friend's right pelvis. Some thirty years later, he still walks with a limp.

[MT Gianni]

At 12 I was in the habbit of shooting bb's in my benjamin pump 17 cal. As long as I held it up it was Ok and I could unload it by rolling it out into my palm then dry firing. [ see the part that says i was 12]. While I was sure my finger was away from the trigger I shot my palm unloading it. That is my only ND. Gianni

[AlaskaMike]

If you don't believe it could happen to you, I think you are an accident waiting to happen, because that is when you get complacent.

Well said. This is one area where constant vigilance cannot be overemphasized.

I completely agree with that gentleman's view that it was an ND, not an AD (accidental discharge). Every time I hear about an AD I ask about the circumstances, and without exception one of the 4 Rules was violated.

Mike

[grumpy one]

I haven't had an accidental or negligent discharge yet, but that's partly because of a warning from a sheep-farmer whose pigs I - and many other people - used to attack occasionally. Seems a guy had driven in from Sydney not long before, hunted through the day, and in a pooped condition, packed his car to drive back to Sydney in the evening. The guy carefully laid his hunting rifle across the back seat of his car, and slammed the door. The rifle went off, the bullet passing through the back door of the car and between the hunter and the property owner. The hunter wasn't up to driving his car until the farmer took him into the house and shared a cup of tea with him.

It's easy to say the problem was the unsafe condition of the rifle, but there's a lot of it going on out there. A friend of mine bought a really nice 243W commercial "Authentic Mauser" a few years ago, and (even though every 100 yard group he fired with a decent load was one hole) still felt he had to tune it up a bit by adjusting the trigger. I went around there one morning soon afterward and was cycling the bolt when I noticed an odd noise as I closed it. I repeated the action a few times to see what was going on and sure enough, one time in three the sear slipped when the bolt was closing, firing the piece. I think slamming a car door would very likely have fired it too.

[Harpman]

I still find it amazing people keep loaded and some chambered guns around the house or on their person....here's the way I look at it....unloaded guns NEVER hurt a soul, loaded guns kill people by accident etc...when do I need a loaded gun ?...when the barrel is pointed at the target, no other time....If people want a loaded gun for defense, they do not need a round chambered, this ain't the Nam, we ain't in combat, If you get surprised and get robbed, you ain't got a chance to pull even a loaded gun, the guy doing the robbery knows to get the drop on you first, by the time you realize whats happening his gun is already pointed at you, well, at least thats how it happened to me...anyway..if I have enough time to sum up a situation and determine I need to shoot someone, I have time to chamber a round, more than likely I will go my life time and not need to shoot any one, so the safety factor plays a more major role in the decision, and I come up with "no loaded guns" around my house option..now a cop on duty I can see, but not average Joe in the suburb...By all means though any one who wants loaded guns laying around, go for it...this is just my thoughts on it.:Fire::Fire::Fire:

[Scrounger]

I agree with your philosophy 100%.

[JohnSmiles]

I keep loaded weapons in my house, easily within reach.
You do what you feel safe with, I will do the same.
It is my house, and they are my guns, and I treat them all as if they are always loaded because they ARE always loaded.
No confusion to be had here.
I have been around 4 accidental discharges.
One was my fault.
No one was hurt in any of them, but the lesson was learned.

I have had several personal friends killed in cars, but that does not make me afraid to drive mine.
I does, however, make me drive a bit more careful.

No, this isn't 'NAM', but it sure as heck ain't exactly safe either.
Is there any promise we will be near one of them if we need it?
Nope.
But the odds of us being able to get one if we need it are way better than if we didn't have one accessable AND loaded in the first place.


One of the great things about America.
While neither of us is completely right, neither of us is completely wrong either.
Its simply another 'choice' we are still able to make for ourself.

[floodgate]

It's a bit different out here in the wilds. I keep my Savage 24F .22/20ga. out of sight but handy in the angle behind the bedroom door, one shotshell chambered, but the barrel selector set on.22, and another shell handy on the bookshelf next the door (2 more shells and 7-8 .22s in the butt-trap). It peppered and scared off a bobcat making off with a chicken last year and has nailed rat-coons on previous occasions, and would stop anything or anyone else if needed in a hurry (a coyote got two if my neighbor's sheep last Spring; and there has been a rash of dope-related home invasions recently a few miles down the highway).

BUT, we are in our 70's, no-one but us goes into the bedroom, and it gets unloaded and put in the safe when we have visitors or we make a shopping run. 'nuff said.

floodgate

[Wicky]

A good reminder to check and double check that fireare before you go squeezing the trigger. I have been lucky not to have an accidental discharge myself but have a mate with only two toes on his right foot from a shotgun he adjusted the trigger pull on!
Good on this bloke for stepping forward and taking the blame not like the wimps nowadays who would blame the firearm manafacturer or the ammunition maker.
Lets hope all goes OK and he is up shooting again soon!

[Harpman]

I want to rephrase that, the word "need", as in no one needs a loaded gun...I dont know what to replace it with, But I know I hate it when someone thinks I should not do something because I dont need too, its really a matter of likes, dislikes, wants , desires, etc...my apologies to all.

[youngun]

I dont quite get what peoples problem is with the term "accidental discharge."
Mirriam-Webster defines accident as:
1 a: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance [...]
2 a: an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance [...]
What sort of accidental discharge doesn't involve negligence? Guns don't "just go off!" If it's just to emphasise who's fault it is we should maybe say "stupid discharge." Given how most people involved in an accidental discharge are smart enough to have just about pooped themselves, I'm not sure reproval is necessary.

Anyway, knock on some wood, I've always been overly cautious, having grown up in a house full of loaded guns. The thought of working on my pistol while it is still in "gun" mode is beyong me - though it may very well have been beyond this guy if you'd have asked him last year.
It isn't just about guns, of course; as mentioned cars are awefully dangerous. I handle a number of chemicals that would wreck me in seconds if not handled with respect and proper care. I run a moulder with six massive cutting heads that would shred a body part if it went somewhere it shouldnt, and simlarly other shop tools, etc., etc. Problems come when you wear your gun so much and become so comfortable with it that you forget that it is never NOT a deadly weapon. The bucket of lye has a big skull and crossbones on it; the pistol doesn't.
I remember as a young teen, father teaching me to shoot, how ***** and goofy it felt having to point an unloaded pistol - slide back - always at the ground. Many years later, when a shooting instructor was having us rack the slide three times, stick a finger in and yell "clear!" it seemed perfectly natural. "Overkill" = not getting killed! Paranoia is your friend.
("Wh-who said that?!")

[Ghugly]

I got a safety reminder about a year ago when I blew a hole through one of my toes with a .45. I got a clue as to how cool my wife is when I called her with my cell as I was going to the hospital. I though she would freak............boy was I wrong. Her only comment? "You arn't wearing your new shoes, are you?"

[Harpman]

I owe much to my drill seargents...they are the ones who taught me safety first...I look at a loaded gun as an accident waiting to happen, given time....If I drove around with no seat belt I would look at it as risking my life for no good reason..theres certain precautions I take everyday, just because "**** happens" and we can not stop the '****' in time to stop the accident..but the second it takes to fasten my belt, or load a chamber, eliminates the "****" factor..and this is my conclusion on 'doodoo' :-D

[jleneave]

I guess everyone has their own opinions and view wither or not to keep a firearm with a round in the chamber. Personally I keep about all of mine with a round in the chamber and I have a few guns strategically placed around the house. One reason that I keep mine with a round in the chamber is because my wife is very petite and has trouble racking the slides on a few of my Kimber 1911 pistols and on the Glocks also. I would hate to know that something might happen while I am not at home and she not be able to protect herself and our 2yr old daughter. Of course the guns are kept out of reach of our daughter, but I know there will come a time when she gets a little older that she might stumble up on one of the loaded guns. By the time that happens I will have taught her firearms safety and to respect firearms. I grew up in a household with loaded firearms and was taught about safety and respect, not that guns were bad and that I should never touch one, all that would do is peak a child’s interest. I was allowed to shoot just about anytime I wanted and received my first gun, an H&R .410 single shot, for Christmas when I was 10 yrs old and got my first handgun, a Ruger Blackhawk .357, when I was 15. I worked all summer in tobacco to save up to buy the Ruger. I believe that this took all the mystique out of firearms and therefore I never wanted to “play” with them when I wasn’t supposed to. I was previously married and had a child when I was very young and I taught this to my other daughter who is now 18 yrs old and never had an incident because she learned about firearms the proper way. My oldest just moved out of the house back the first of last year (college) and I miss our times when we would go out in the back yard (we live out in the county) and shoot up a brick of .22LR, but before I know it my youngest will be ready to spend some time with me shooting pop cans. The youngest is already showing an interest in firearms. She comes and sits in my lap when I am reading gun magazines and points out the bullets in the pictures, for some reason she loves bullets, and I have been teaching her the difference in pistols and rifles and she is picking up on it quickly. Even now when I go outside to shoot she has to come and watch or she throws a fit. When I am melting down WW she asks me if I am “cooking bullets” and I tell her “yep, daddy is cooking bullets so when you get a little older we can shoot them together”. She likes to play with bullets so I got her a box of .22mag bullets in one of the plastic boxes with the hole for each one and she loves to pour them out and put them back in the box. We have made a learning game out of it and we count them when she puts them back in the box. At 2yrs old she can count all the way to 20 by herself. Sorry this response is so long, I don’t know how I got from discussing wither or not to keep a gun with a round in the chamber to talking about my kids. I just believe that safe and responsible gun handling is taught at an early age. I know that there are those out there who disagree with my methods, but to each his own. Be safe.

[cbr]

At a indoor range where I sometimes shoot, it scares me when I look at the gun cleaning bench. Not sure just how many, but there are several bullet holes in the benches. I believe most of them are from people trying to disassemble a glock without unloading it first.

When I was in highschool, a buddy had a 30-30 go off in his old dodge truck. He got real lucky and the bullet just went through the floorboard and right through the oil filter! After a new filter and oil change he was ready to go again. I dont think I went hunting with him after that.

[calsite]

I'm a certyified NRA firearms instructor, new into the boolit casting arena. My curriculum touches on this argument, safety verses accessibility somewhat. It emphasises educating your family or users on the firearm firstly on good safe operating practices and then goes into a bit of talk about storage. I personally would have to guage that on who has access to my loaded firearms, ensuring that they know how to safely operate it, and when it comes from that location, located where and can they use it if need be. As far as accidental discharges, I spent 24 years in the Military, and have seen my far share of accidental discharges as we called them, many at the weapons clearing barrel. Never once do I remember a discharge being related to equipent failure, almost always complacency or distraction was the blame. So I think that re-emphasising the basics to yourself and other users is imperetive and should be practiced religiously. take the "oh s" @t" out of the equation with good safe handling practices I.E. if I hand one of my firearms to any of my close friends (normally those who I shoot with) the first thing that they do is check the chamber or cylinder. That isn't the norm fopr most persons. We all owe it our selves to make what we do (shooting) a safer activity. News media and anti-gun politicians are johnny on the spot for any accidental gun or not so accidental firearms incident and it just gives them more ammo against all of us to try and take away our second ammendment rights. Lets all make this a safer sport/pastime.

I saw this statement somewhere, maybe a quote on something here.
"Everyday over 30 million guns don't shoot anybody" I kinda liked it.

My Motto
Take a youth shooting, I'm sure there are many who'd love to learn how to cast boolits, and join the NRA so we can preserve this, our cherished pastime and pass it on.

[KCSO]

I grew up in a hose where a loaded gun hung over the door all the time. We knew the gun was laoded and treated as such. When we needed that gun we usually didn't have time to fumble in the dark for shells. When we took the gun down for cleaning it was emptied on the porch and THEN brought into the house proper. Safety is all in the head of the user and all it takes is one little slip and disaster can strike.

Our #1 rule for any training is that at no time will a functional gun be pointed at a person or in an unsafe direction. Red Guns only for drawing, takeaway and combat exercises.

#2 No ammunition will be in ANY room where dry firing exercises are conducted.

If you dry fire it should be in an area where there is NO loaded ammo. Too many times i have seen an other wise competent Officer take a weapon he has just reloaded out of the holster after traing was over for one last demonstration and Bang!

[lathesmith]

KCSO makes some excellent points here--pointing a functional firearm at anything living is equivalant to a death wish. I am very reluctant to dry fire at anything other than a real backstop...for various reasons. I hate to walk-hunt with a semi-auto; I like to have an empty chamber and only chamber a round just before the moment of firing. So, I obviously prefer pumps, and levers. Then, I'll only chamber a fresh one if I need it; I just prefer this I guess because of some "experiences" I have had in the past. Of course, it isn't practical to still-hunt this way, but I nearly always use hammered single-shots for this kind of hunting.

Anyway, I do wish this guy a speedy recovery. I see from his posts he effectively shot himself twice. And as bad as it is, it could have been much worse. As others have pointed out, if you really believe something like this cannot happen to you, it is only a matter of time until it does.
lathesmith

[PatMarlin]

Lord I pray he recovers well and back to normal.

Being in a concrete wall basement- was that a direct hit or ricoche?

I remember when I was a kid, my dad was showing my mom how "safe" his new Walther PPK was and I heard a "BANG". He had blown a hole right over the kitchen sink.. :roll:

[timdco]

I keep loaded weapons in my house, easily within reach.
You do what you feel safe with, I will do the same.
It is my house, and they are my guns, and I treat them all as if they are always loaded because they ARE always loaded.
No confusion to be had here.
I have been around 4 accidental discharges.
One was my fault.
No one was hurt in any of them, but the lesson was learned.

I have had several personal friends killed in cars, but that does not make me afraid to drive mine.
I does, however, make me drive a bit more careful.

No, this isn't 'NAM', but it sure as heck ain't exactly safe either.
Is there any promise we will be near one of them if we need it?
Nope.
But the odds of us being able to get one if we need it are way better than if we didn't have one accessable AND loaded in the first place.


One of the great things about America.
While neither of us is completely right, neither of us is completely wrong either.
Its simply another 'choice' we are still able to make for ourself.

I keep loaded weapons easily within reach in my house also, but as soon as they come out of the holster for anything but an emergency situation or for target practice they are unloaded. And as always they are always treated as if they are loaded. An unloaded gun doesn't do you any good when you awake to someone smashing your front door in at 1 A.M. It was in the news that this happened near my home last month. The homeowners were unarmed and were beaten to within an inch of their life and then robbed. Not at all trying to downplay gun safety, but an unloaded gun does you no good in this type of situation.

[Uncle R.]

Over the years I've seen THREE "unloaded" guns that turned out to be very loaded indeed. Only one was actually discharged, and that into an empty sky - but it makes you think. I've seen several ADs, usually involving exposed hammer long guns and cold fingers. None hurt anything but the user's pride, thank goodness. The older I get, the more careful I become. I've had some scary expreiences but I ain't never shot anything that I didn't intend to shoot and I very much want to keep it that way.
I don't keep loaded guns in the house - just feel uncomfortable about it. We live in a low crime semi rural area, but I don't delude myself that we're perfectly safe. I do keep a model 15 and a model 65 in handy places, and each with two full speedloaders nearby. That practice might cost me a few precious seconds some day but you gotta do what feels right to you. And anyway, getting that few seconds of warning is one of the reasons I buy dog food. I'm convinced that a good dog or two in the house is better than any electronic burglar alarm ever made. Of course, that's only the first step - AFTER the dog's done his job I count on my two very good friends - Smith and Wesson.
:Fire:
Uncle R.

[Forester]

I guess I have been carefull and fortunate because I have never had an AD/ND, not that it couldnt happen tomorrow but it hasn't yet. I tend to call them all Negligent unless there is truly a freak situation where a round goes off without the trigger ever being pulled, I have heard of this happening a few times but never seen it first hand.

As far as keeping loaded guns around, it depends a lot on your situation. Saying a loaded gun is an accident waiting to happen is blaming the gun for a person's own negligence. I keep a couple of loaded guns around the house, but there are no kids here and rarely ever are there any in the house. I carry one every day of my life on my Virginia CCW permit and would consider carrying an unloaded gun about as good as carrying a brick around, and not nearly as good as a good knife. Things can go bad fast anywhere, that is one thing I know first hand.

[MT Gianni]

Full clip is next to an empty gun. No kids in home currently, but my Daughter is due with our 1st grandchild today and I'm awaiting a call. Gianni

[Charley]

Most of what are described here are NOT accidental discharges, IMO. They are NEGLIGENT discharges, because the person involved forgot/ignored basic safety rules.
To me, an accidental discharge is due to a mechanical failure of the firearm, or something similar. Negligent discharge involved human stupidity or ignorance.


BTW, everyone here makes their own decision regarding loaded firearms in a home or other setting. Both mine and Mrs. Charley's carry guns are always loaded. No small children in the household, guns are stored unobtrusively in fairly high cabinets or closets, where small children would have a harder time accessing them. When our kids were small, we "gun proofed" them, thru training and teaching. Also did store a DA house revolver with the action open, and a speedloader adjacent. A 1911 had the magazine inserted but not locked home, and an empty chamber. Niether handgun could fire unless at least two deliberate actions were taken.

[CSH]

I was almost the victim of a negligent discharge when I was 14. I was squirrel hunting with 2 friends (we all had 22 semiauto rifles) and when we decided to call it quits the rifles were unloaded via target practice. One of guys "counted" 15 shots out of his rifle, then he turned toward me and for whatever reason pulled the trigger. Either he miscounted or the rifle held 16. The last shot couldn't have missed my right leg by more than 6 inches.

As others have emphasized keeping loaded guns around is pretty subjective. I keep loaded guns in the house and on my person and have never had a ND/AD. I don't think it's an accident waiting to happen. Maybe more like a snake waiting to bite, and I always treat them as such unless they're disassembled. The guns in the house are locked in small safes with electronic keypads that take about 3 seconds to open. I considered keeping the guns and ammo in separate locations, but that adds time, not to mention the increased difficulty of loading a revolver or auto in the dark and/or under stress.

[montana_charlie]

You can try hard to be safe, but your mind can still play tricks on you.

Years ago my only centerfire handgun was a Blackhawk (old style) in .357.
I kept five rounds in it, and the chamber under the hammer was the empty one.
It was immediately usable, but safe from accidental discharge, and I was quite religious about making sure it was stored in just that way.

I also cleaned all of my guns (fired or not) every two months.

When preparing to clean the Blackhawk, I always counted the loads as they fell out of the cylinder onto the table. When I reached '5', I would spin the cylinder through one complete revolution while watching to make sure no case head passed the loading gate.

On the evening in question, I emptied the piece as usual, but two rounds rolled off the table to the floor before I reached '5'.
That distraction must have caused me to lose count, but after I did reach '5', I knew for certain the gun was empty as I rotated the cylinder for the final check.

Because my brain was so thoroughly convinced, my eye didn't see the loaded round go by during that final spin.

With the muzzle up, I cocked the hammer while letting the cylinder drag against my left thumb. This was a 'mechanical check' to see if anything felt unusual.
I then pulled the trigger to dry fire the pistol one time...again to see if everything was working normally.

When the live round discharged I was dumbfounded. At first I thought I was mistaken, and that something else had made the noise...but there was no way to miss the smell.

I still do those same 'mechanical tests' with that revolver. But, ever since that day, I do it after the weapon has been disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled...and before loading any ammunition.

I keep a loaded handgun for this reason...
I may not have time to arm myself early in the course of a break in. It kinda depends on how things happen.
But, if I have a chance to go for a weapon after the bad guys are already in the house...I don't want to have to spend time loading it.
CM

[Guzziac]

Consider them all to be loaded until proven otherwise!