Choice of Muzzle Loading Pistols? Is this a good choice?

[Smithy]

Howdy folks: I've been all over the map and then all over the map again when it comes to favorites in shooting. It was shotguns and skeet for several years, then pistols and modifications. I once made a 357 desert eagle look like a CAR 15 using a detachable handle and turning down the 14" barrel to accept the hand-guard parts of the CAR. It looked awesome, but was worth absolutely nothing except to look at and waste ammunition. Well I've also had my fair share of black powder mixed in the middle of things including muzzle loading and cartridge loaded black powder. Well no being in California and getting all of our guns somehow or the other, banned or otherwise made illegal, I thought it time to get a black powder pistol of modern design (ie. 209 primed and such) and the equipment to go along with it before California decides to make any gun 50 cal or more a destructive device. It's coming, just wait and see. So I saw and ad for the following CVA pistol and it looked like a winner I think? My main wish of all things is that it be all stainless steel and have synthetic stocked which this model is so have a look and get back to me on what you all think? Is it a good gun? Good price? Good caliber? Here it is.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/CVA174-Optima174-V2-50-Caliber-Black-Powder-150-Stainless-SteelBlack-Pistol/1601235.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Dcva%2Boptima%26x%3D18%26y%3D9&Ntt=cva+optima&WTz_l=Unknown

There were a couple of additions that were close to this that also caught my eye and here they are:

http://www.nearmfg.com/index.html

https://traditionsfirearms.com/product/1x32-matter-finish-with-circle-reticle

And of course a harris bi-pod to go along with the package. So I'd end up with a single shot pistol in 50 caliber with the bi-pod legs set at the center of gravity for easy tipping forward or rearward and have a scope mount/rings much like the old TC unit that was a one piece affair. The scope I think is basically just a glass tubed way of having really great open sights but without having to center and align the open sights, just put the cross-hairs on target and pull the trigger. That is sort of what I wanted, however I don't know if I've selected the correct parts and companies to do the job I'm after? I'll really have to rethink the scope unit since it will cost as much as two thirds the cost of the gun itself. I love having a simple to load gun that can pack into a satchel and go. I'd of loved to have shot my first Wyoming antelope with one (I had a TC encore pistol in 50 caliber at that time), but my friend talked me into using his 308 loaner rifle and so I did. I bagged the antelope with the first and only shot of the trip so I can't complain I guess. Waiting to hear? Smithy.

[johnson1942]

it is compact and well made and accurate. i tried to look up the twist but couldnt find it. im sure it is a 1/28. would shoot a sabot and a .451 or .458 bullet in appropiate sabots. you could shoot 500 grain paperpatch bullets 50 cal but the recoil may be too much for a gun like that. because it is a .50 and a 1/28 twist most likely i would buy a bounch of mmp sabots for a .50 cal that hold a .458 bullet and get a good low cost 400 grain mold in .458 diam as their are many many out their new and used. makes no diff. that they are grease groove bullets. that sabot and that bullet with 70 or 80 grains of powder behind it would easily make it the same as a 45/70 or 45/90 buffalo rifle. with a good scope you could keep up with a rifle of those cals. to leaste 300 or more yards. i have a rifle i built that i shoot those mmporange sabots in with a 450 grin bullet and i use it for target at any range. i only use 70 grains of powder behind this sabot combo and does it ever shoot. your gun only needs 11 inches to reach max ft per sec for the bullet and i think yours is 14 inches. it would be a good hunting gun and could have fun target shooting it also. i dont know if you live in a wooded area or the open prairie but i think it would be very good in the woods and even out in the open. most deer are not beyond 150 yards and this gun could drive tacks at that range. let us know what you do. also a stainless steel barrel in the muzzle loader is very superior as to ease of cleaning and not fouling. idaho ron and i both have muzzle loaders in stainless steel barrels and both of use will tell you they foul less and clean much easier.

[Smithy]

Thank you so much Johnson1942! You are correct on the 1 in 28 twist (I never really understood proper twist rates and such), but since you mention the mmp sabot's, those were the exact brand that came up during a Google "Sabot" search. The only time I've ever used anything besides a 58 caliber Minie ball over Crisco and a good amount of powder was with the 209 encore. So even though I've been through the "black powder" stage, I'm well out of the loop when it comes to modern loading and such. I did have one heck of a problem loading the sabot's in the Encore and I supposedly had the proper bullets and sabots. It was just a knuckle buster to get the package moving down the barrel. I notice that there are a special line of sabots mentioned on the one site and called BBSB's seen in the lower right corner of this page: http://mmpsabots.com/store/mmp-standard-sabots/ They say that they are a few thousandths under sized and have the slick little starter helper to get the load headed down the barrel. Would that be a way to get it done? Also I am a big fan of the Lee six cavity molds since I've learned how to tweak the mold and handles for prolonged loading. I drill and tap into the mold blocks two stainless machine screws so that the handle cam rockers against the screw metal instead of the raw aluminum. Other things are to totally strip the mold halves and deburr any and all scratches and burrs to eliminate any spare flashing coming up during casting. I have some leftovers from my dad's airplane stuff including safety wire and drills and wire twisting tools so some of the nuts are positioned in a perfect place and then cross drilled and wired up so that it stays perfectly in place. The only issue is that you've mentioned using a rifle bullet and the largest .451 or .452 bullet I can get the six cavity for is in the 45LC or 454 Casull department and not the rifle section so here is the highest weight bullet I can get if I go with Lee and six cavities: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/440679/lee-6-cavity-bullet-mold-452-300-rf-45-colt-long-colt-454-casull-452-diameter-300-grain-flat-nose-gas-check My son works programming CNC equipment and running all sorts of lathes and mills so it wouldn't be too awful hard to open up the lands a bit to produce a heavier weight bullet while retaining the same overall shape of the pistol bullet. What do you think? Or should I give up on being lazy and just purchase a two cavity mold and get the 500 grains you were mentioning? Smithy.

[johnson1942]

if your going with sabots go with a .458, 400 grain short round nose bullet. their is a orange sabot that mmp sells. i wouldnt hesitate on a good single cavity for a 400 grain .458 bullet mold as you can mold a lot of bullets in just one hour. as far as going down hard, remember the encore barrel may be a little tighter than the cva pistol barrel. they do vary for gun to gun and brand to brand. i know the orange mmp sabots and the .459 diam bullets i cast go down real easy. also a grease grooved bullet with no grease in the grooves goes down the barrel in a sabot easier then a solid smooth sided bullet. less friction involved. if you buy mmp sabots and they work you can buy them in bulk from them direct and get a 20 percent discount and free shipping. its a real bargin for a very good sabots. even if you shoot a .451 bullet in a sabot you have to find a bullet that diam that is over 300 grains. with a 1/28 twist the 400 grain .458 diam bullet would be ideal. now the 500 grain would have to be a paperpatched bullet in .50 cal. size. you could reduce it to .492 by a pushthrough reduceing die. they dont cost much and i think buckshot who is a member here makes them and i use doughty enterprises out of montana, he is fast and very good. only cost 31 dollars includeing shipping. the pistol your thinking of buying is a 209 primer ignition and you could use blackhorn 209 powder as the powder. very accurate and no wipeing between shots.read all of idaho rons stickys on paperpatching and also go to ramshot.com and then their blog section and read the article on paperpatching the inline muzzle loader. i couldnt tell you how much recoil their would be with 70 grains of blackhorn 209 powder and a 500 grain bullet but it may be controllable, i just couldnt say. they would shoot very accurate though. read both articles on paperpaching and then you will figure out which way to go.

[Smithy]

Thinking of what you are talking about, I'd have to go with a simple bullet/sabot combination to fit the bore of my gun. The quickest and easiest loading and the less that could possibly go wrong durring firing of the weapon. If you say a 1 by 28 twist does best with a 400 grainer, then that is what I'll shoot for. I'm just so use to the timing on using Lee's six cavity mold. I guess it wouldn't make sense to load for an hour and end up with a lifetime of slugs for my single shot muzzle loader? Shoot if I got close to a bullet every two minutes throughout the hour I'd end up with thirty nicely formed slugs and that's a LOT of shooting when talking muzzle loader and a single shot pistol. I'll readjust my thinking and be looking for a nice case iron mold like a Lyman maybe that will go with the 400 grain weight. Any other suggestions as far as bullet shape or any other bullet design issues? I know that lube grooves are unimportant with the sabot, but does the point form make a difference in flight coming out of a sabot? Let me know as I mill about looking for different possibilities. Smithy.

[johnson1942]

the 45/70 .458 diam military round nose bullet. you dont want a long pointed nose but a short round military round nose. i think several mold co. make this type of mold. the grease grooves will help with the ease of loading the sabot. also go to the mmp sabot site and i think it is the orange one for the .50 cal that holds a .458 bullet. you will find this combo in that gun so accurate it will almost be boreing to shoot as most likely their will be no tweeking it, just load and shoot and hit where you are aiming at. if you shoot at a range you will find you will most likely out shoot modern rifles even to way out their. thats a good feeling for you and a bad feeling for the guy with the modern gun your out shooting. have fun and let us know how it all turns out. several years ago their was a shooter on the east coast with paperpatch or cast bullet in a muzzle loader who made 9 inch groups at 1000 yards. thats shooting.

[freedom475]

I got the Optima pistol a few years ago and can say that it is an excellent shooter.

NO WAY would I ever want to shoot a 400 or 500gr bullet out of it. I may have when I fist got it because I received some big fat power belts with it when I got it...they were extremely painful to shoot and they shot terrible. I had some 450gr cast slugs that shot well...but the recoil made my 500S&W feel like a toy. Seriously!!

I tried many combinations of powder and bullets...many were not good at all and some just shot like cr@p. Pyrodex was a joke. The IMR "White-Hots" pellets are powerful and accurate...but seemed a little too powerful and they fouled worse than BH209.

I now shoot Forester "Crush-Rib" Sabots (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Harvester-Crush-Rib-50-Caliber-Sabots-Per-50/740770.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Dsabots%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader %253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=sabots&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products) with 200-240gr .430 bullets or the 45 cal 250-300gr bullets out of it with 80-100gr (by volume) of BH209 powder. The BH209 is great powder and the Crush-Rib Forester makes loading way easier.

I mounted a UltraDot scope (http://www.ultradotsights.com/ultradot30.html) on on it and it is as accurate as most rifles.. It easily shoots XTP's or the new Cutting Edge (http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/pages/handgun_bullets) bullets into -2" at 100 yards just shooting over the hood of my truck with a sandbag.

Recoil is quite impressive, but manageable. I killed two deer with the CEB Raptors last year with the above combo and it was instant "Dirt-Knap" for both deer. One was just over 100yds and the other was at 145yrds. I'll try to find a pic.

Hope some of this helps:Fire::mrgreen:

[Smithy]

It helps a Lot. You can't imagine. Taking the years of experience from another is a whole lot better than spending the years yourself. I hate to "reinvent" the wheel as it were. So I'm back to the 300 grain .451 bullet. The reason that is a good one is that I still have access to mold and sizing die for that combination and it will be extremely easy to get back into production of this combination. All I'll need is the sabots and if I don't hear any complaints about it, I want to give the sabot/combo items a try. Those are the thin black sabots (allowing for the slightly larger as cast bullet of 45 caliber) with the bottom key that fits over the powder and just under the sabot forming a secondary gas seal and makes for easier bullet starting when loading. It looks like a winning combination even though I'll have the built in bullet starter with the CVA pistol where they relieve some of the rifling at the muzzle end of the barrel. The combination of the two should provide the easiest of loading I've encountered thus far. I just wish that the load combination for this bullet/sabot pairing liked an even amount of powder, say 100 grains. That way I could use a pair of 50 grain pellets, now that would be quick and easy loading. Put two pellets in then the sabot/load package and ram it home. Break the action and place a 209 primer in closing the action and then cock when the shot presents itself. That would be just plain fun in my book. Smithy.

[dondiego]

You know, if the recoil is excessive.....................add less powder!

[Smithy]

Well if I'm trying to stick to pellets I'd have a choice of 30, 50, 60, 80, 90, or 100 grains since the pellets come in 30 and 50 grain amounts. I'm sure that one of those loads would end up working just fine, but when buying the 30 grain pellets is when it gets really expensive as opposed to sticking only with the 50 grainers. Loose powder is always an option too I suppose? Smithy.

[freedom475]

Pellets are a total joke compared to Black Horn 209.... Nothing shoots like it in an inline.