Runout gauge

[RED333]

So on the HV threads I was reading about some of the "tricks of the trade".
A runout gauge was posted about, well I have not been reloading long,
I thought I was doing well at it. NOT!!!
I built a gauge tonight, it is not something that is gona win any awards, but it does work.
However it did show I was not doing a good job, some of my loads are within .005.
Less that 2 out of 10 are less than .005, the rest are .010 and worse.
The base is an old heat sink, dial indicator is from my Cabine Tree hardness tester.
Now to learn how to get the runout down to less than .005, then work on the HV thing.
A few pics, it aint gona win no Miss America contest.
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1256_zpsb459ebbd.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1256_zpsb459ebbd.jpg.html)
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1255_zps7077ce9f.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1255_zps7077ce9f.jpg.html)

[btroj]

Ok, that done what does it tell you?

Even more important, are those fired or sized cases?

Check fired cases then cases at every step in loading them. What step makes then go bad?

Runout gauges are a great detective tool. I use mine to find the steps causing me troubles then I fix the problems.

Well done.

[RED333]

Yes fired, resized full length, reloaded by me.
Back to the bench I go to learn, will report as I find the error in my ways. LOL
I am not that upset, things like this is fun learning, a whole lot more fun than school, well class, chasing girls was fun.
Till I caught one, or did she catch me, I dont know, it is all fun.

[btroj]

I bet you will quickly find a step that is giving the runout. Got any fired, unsized cases to check? Is the chamber straight?

[RED333]

I have resized all the cases, before I made the gauge, have not checked them.
Checking sized cases is next, gona fire a few in few to check the chamber in a few days.

[USAFrox]

One of the biggest culprits I've found is the seating die. The amount of runout I was getting made me move up to a "benchrest" type of seater die which seats them straighter. Of course, your mileage may vary.

[RED333]

One of the biggest culprits I've found is the seating die. The amount of runout I was getting made me move up to a "benchrest" type of seater die which seats them straighter. Of course, your mileage may vary.
Well that is what I use, gona have to check a few other things before I load any more.

[JSnover]

I actually like the way it's built. It's simple, solid, and it's right there where you need it.

[Pinsnscrews]

have you checked the run out of the boolits themselves prior to seating?

[RED333]

Well knock me down, I found one problem, Lee size die is bad.
The Lee die made the necks run-out .005 to .007, so I grabbed my RCBS size die and run 10
cases and now the run-out is down to .001 to .002, so one dragon killed and a few more to go.
I did find if I turn the case 180* and run it again the run-out goes to .001 for all cases.
This is without the expander in the die, wanted to just check the dies.
I know I have a long road ahead, but one step at a time.

[RED333]

have you checked the run out of the boolits themselves prior to seating?
Not yet, got to get the cases fixed first.

[btroj]

Great work. The guage just paid for itself.

now you won't be able to stop!

[Bullshop Junior]

I need to get something like this. This is pretty cool. Good work!

[RED333]

Great work. The guage just paid for itself.

now you won't be able to stop!
Stayed up to 11PM to check and fix cases, late for me as I get up at 4AM.

[RED333]

I need to get something like this. This is pretty cool. Good work!
Thanks, after reading about a gauge it got me to thinking about how to make one.

[btroj]

Stayed up to 11PM to check and fix cases, late for me as I get up at 4AM.

Obsess much?

It does get addictive once you make discoveries about how bad some dies are.

Learning like this is fun, isn't it? I learned how bad a seater was at 600 yards. Luckily I learned in practice, not at a match.

[RED333]

Very enjoyable it is.
Just dug out some cases that have been fired and not sized, so after check run-out on them I found .001.
I dont know if that is good or bad, I am going with good till told something else.
This is my Browning A Bolt ll made in 2005, it is my 1st and only correct hand rifle, the one I want to go HV with.
So the chamber in out .001, good or bad?

[btroj]

It can work but it won't make it easier. Only one way to know, isn't there?

get some bullets and ppwder and start loading.

[RED333]

Yep, time to load some up, gona have to take extra time to load some straight, now that I can check them.

[RED333]

So after I made all the cases straight in the RCBS die with out the expander, I expanded the neck with the ball that came with the RCBS die and found that the run-out came back to .004 to .007. Took the ball back off and ran them again in the RCBS sizer, this time lifted the die out about 1 trun to get off the shoulder, cases straight again.
I have a Lyman "M" die for 7mm so I ran the cases and much better cases this time.(did not bell, just expand)
However 7 out of 50 cases the run-out came back, is this because of wall thickness is not the same around the mouth?
I did rerun them in the size die and the run-out went away.
I did cull the 7 cases.
This rabbit hole is very deep, fun getting to the end.

[Doc Highwall]

I size my cases with Redding bushing dies both full length or just neck sizeing depending on the gun, without the expander ball. I then use a modified expander to expand and bell the necks.

[williamwaco]

A couple of years ago I wanted to test accuracy vs runout.

After loading around 200 test 5.56s, with RCBS "regular" dies, I never got enough .004s to shoot a single five shot group.

You should get only a few with .003.

I find that other than bad dies, the most often cause is operating the press handle too fast.
You need to give the case time to align with the inside of the die. Don't slam it.

[RED333]

I do tend to "slam" the handle, but now trying to get to HV and good groups I did slow down, turn the case and run it again.
The run-out is showing up in just a few cases, I do mind culling a few cases because they are not gona work, due to
the brass in the neck not being the same thickness all the way around.
I could get some neck turning tools, but that will have to wait.

[RED333]

I went into my reloaded ammo stock just to check, DADBURN IT, 5 good and 45 bad in the first box!!!
So I have used a Lee size die for .285, and found the high spot and made them straight by tweaking them a bit.
I set the round in the die and moved the case to the low side by hand, tweaking the neck the make them better.
Got some of them down to .002 run-out, worst .005.
At least they are shoot-able now.
These are some of the first rounds I reloaded, jacketed bullets.
Now the sad part, I have close to 300 rounds to check.

[leeggen]

Those rounds look to be powder coated? How consistant is the coating? If you are reading off the bullit and the pc isn't cosistant that would give you some run out also.
CD.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Those rounds look to be powder coated? How consistant is the coating? If you are reading off the bullit and the pc isn't cosistant that would give you some run out also.
CD.

That sir, :goodpost: is no doubt a timely and accurate observation! Wish I'd thought of it myself.

[fouronesix]

Your chamber fire formed cases of +/- .001 runout seem fine. I've found that runout usually happens (or is exposed) during the sizing process or expanding process. I theorize two basic causes. Either the wall thickness is not consistent and/or the hardness around the circumference is not consistent. You can usually clear up the differential thickness issue by outside neck turning. You might be able to clear up the differential hardness issue by carefully annealing. After doing so, things may change again, especially after full pressure firing- given the nature of brass. The final place where runout can show up is after bullet seating, but that is usually a symptom of one or both of the above mentioned causes. Serious bench rest shooters are constantly chasing these issues.

[leftiye]

You need to make a chambered die like a benchrest seater with a tapered expander on the top punch. It could reside in your press. Raise the case into the die (top dead center so it will just sit there), tap the expander down all the way, then retract the case. Two more thangs. Open your sizer up like a benchrest sizer die - to size only enough to grip the boolit. 2nd, expand only enough to seat your boolit (checks the sizer) so it doesn't deform your case necks. If standard dies didn't way undersize the necks the expanders would probly not mutilate the cases. Expander ball= .002" less than boolit diameter.

[btroj]

I don't use an expanded ball at all. Get a Redding bushing style sizers. You get the bushings in sizes that will size the neck to a dimension you want. That controls inside neck dimension and therefore sets bullet tension.

[RED333]

Yes the PC boolits are not a concern just now, I less than 50 loaded.
Will need to get a chrono before I shoot cast to work the loads up.
I am working on my process now, just trying to get things right before I try cast.
Thanks for the help, still have a lot of learning to do. LOL

[Doc Highwall]

You need to make a chambered die like a benchrest seater with a tapered expander on the top punch. It could reside in your press. Raise the case into the die (top dead center so it will just sit there), tap the expander down all the way, then retract the case. Two more thangs. Open your sizer up like a benchrest sizer die - to size only enough to grip the boolit. 2nd, expand only enough to seat your boolit (checks the sizer) so it doesn't deform your case necks. If standard dies didn't way undersize the necks the expanders would probly not mutilate the cases. Expander ball= .002" less than boolit diameter.

leftiye, here is a link to the chamber die that I made for my 308 for expanding the case necks.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?90241-Modifying-Dies-For-Cast-Bullet-Shooting

[popper]

Problem with not getting a V block is you don't know how bad the HS (or other device) is. Also, how bad is the case, case neck, etc. how square is the case head? You did get some good info but I would still want more precision before I made a lot do expensive decisions.

[RED333]

There is a grove cut into the base that keeps the case centered.

[detox]

I first choose cases that have less than .002 wall thickness runout then turn the necks just enough to remove high spots. When sizing a fired case I use a .308 Hornaday neck sizing die with .338 neck bushing and their optional elliptical .310 expander. I use a Redding competition bullet seater that has been opened up to handle .3115 cast bullets (.3120 Forster Seater on order). I check concentricity in my NECO gauge (varies .001-.015) then straiten loaded round by bending neck in NECO gauge.

[RED333]

Looks like I need me one of them neck turners, although all I have found in about 10 so far.
Just might hold of on one for a bit.
I did get 250 loaded rounds fixed for run-out.

[leeggen]

Hey Red333, how about taking some of the loads with say .010 ruout and compare them when fired to the ones you straightend and see how inaccuret they are? How much runout is too much? How much runout in the neck to the case is too much? How much runout in the bullit itself is to much? No hassel intended just some questions I thought of about runout.( old machinist minded)
CD

[RED333]

I have not shot any of the ones that I fixed yet, but I have fired some that were not fixed before I found them bad.
Groups were all over the place, I thought it was me, but now I just do not know.
I will save a few not fixed for testing and report back, I am gona get a chronograph before I shoot again.
So might be a bit.

[RED333]

I got to thinking about neck thickness and how to check for it.
Being a cheap SOB, I made one.
Took the mandrel from a Lee 7mm case cutter, drilled and taped a hole in my case run-out block.
This is now what I have.
Yall have made a monster, I just cant get enough.
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1258_zps270b5a8c.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1258_zps270b5a8c.jpg.html)
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1259_zpsf868e391.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/Runout%20gauge/DSCF1259_zpsf868e391.jpg.html)
Now to go back through the cases to check for thickness and look for another problem.
Neck project, case neck turner.

[leeggen]

If it ain't one dog biting ya it's another. Don't you just love/hate relationship with casting and reloading!!!
CD

[257]

hi it does not matter what it looks like, just that it works. I have a whole cabinet full of home made tools they aren't going to win any beauty contests but they all work

[Finnmike]

Dumb question here: did you try chambering a "trued" round, withdraw and check the runout again? Maybe you chamber is not precisely in line with the bore, thus canting the boolits upon chambering. Another fork in the rabbit hole.

[doc1876]

sometimes we make our own prisons, good luck, and have fun.

[RED333]

Dumb question here: did you try chambering a "trued" round, withdraw and check the runout again? Maybe you chamber is not precisely in line with the bore, thus canting the boolits upon chambering. Another fork in the rabbit hole.
Post 17

Very enjoyable it is.
Just dug out some cases that have been fired and not sized, so after check run-out on them I found .001.
I dont know if that is good or bad, I am going with good till told something else.
This is my Browning A Bolt ll made in 2005, it is my 1st and only correct hand rifle, the one I want to go HV with.
So the chamber in out .001, good or bad?
So no the chamber is OK for now.