Pyrodex Question

[ejh69]

I would like to hear your ideas about pydrodex loose powder, pyrodex pellets and triple 7 pellets. Which one might be better, expected shelf life, is one better burning, etc.? Thanks

[fishhawk]

Mine is I will never use any of them. If you can use true BP

[OverMax]

Loose is always better. Because it can be measure [+] more or less [-] so to give your weapon its best groupings & accuracy. But loose powder is not as convenient as pellet. With pellet use as far as tight or not groupings the trade off is "you make do with what you see." Don't know about their shelf life. Aren't they all made by the same company?

[Maven]

I've used Pyrodex RS & P (loose powder) for 20+ years in my cap locks and inline because real BP is not available locally. In fact, I'm still using Pyro. P, which is at least 10 yrs. old, in my [BP] revolvers with no problems to speak of. Ditto for the RS. I.e., accuracy is the same as with BP, but I can't vouch for velocity as I've not chronographed either granulation against FFFg or FFg. However, regardless of what Hodgdon claims, you DO have to swab your bore, perhaps every other shot, if you use conical CB's (Maxi-Balls, REAL's, etc.); and it is more corrosive than BP. That means you have to make sure your bbl. is pristine and treated with your favorite rust preventative before you store the piece. As I also have flintlock guns, I've bitten the bullet and paid the Hazmat & shipping fees and ordered a case of BP and will not replace the Pyro. P once it's gone. Can't help you with the pellets, though as I've never used them.

[mooman76]

I also have used Pyrodex loose RS and P with no problems, some well over ten years old. The pellets can be a little harder to ignite, you are stuck with whatever amount(grains) you buy and usually are less accurate. I have 777 but have not used it yet so I really can't comment. The pellets are better suited for convenience when hunting and probably those unmentionable guns.

[johnson1942]

you will find that blackpowder is consistantly very very accurate. last forever and is not as corrosive as pyrodex. pyrodex is spongy. you have to very carefull on how much pressure you seat your bullet on the pyrodex or it will affect the accracy. if you can put a 209 primer set up on your rifle then black horn 209 powder is very good also. cleanest of them all and very accurate.

[Theditchman]

Hodgdon also make Pyrodex Select which I have found as good as BH 209 and a lot cheaper

[John Boy]

I don't shoot it be look at at Blackhorn 209 ... http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/comparison/

[slumlord44]

I have been using Pyrodex and then Triple Seven for many years. Triple Seven is hotter than Pyrodex and black powder so you have to us less for the same velocity. 70% as I recall but check the instructions on the container to be sure. I have actually found it to be less corrosive than black but it is still corrosive so you have to be careful. I have used some very old Pyrodex in the paper containers and it seemed to work fine. Killed a lot of deer with both Pyrodex and now with Triple Seven.

[fouronesix]

Make no mistake, the fouling of most common subs are as corrosive if not more so than real BP. Some have a fairly short shelf life- if not chemically then hygroscopically. BP has a shelf life of at least a few hundred years. Some subs tend to clump up into a very hard mass after the slightest exposure to humidity. Pyrodex however does not seem to suffer that problem while some others do. Most all subs are harder to ignite than BP with some much harder to ignite than BP. Many leave very hard fouling and require, by necessity, swabbing between shots for loading if the load is a snug fit. Pelletized subs are usually harder to ignite than if in granular form. Almost all subs are more expensive than real BP but some subs like Pyrodex are usually available at wallyworld. But hey, what's not to like about subs!

[Bent Ramrod]

Pyrodex was formulated to have a higher ignition temperature than black powder so it could be shipped and stored as a "flammable solid" like smokeless powders rather than the "explosive" classification that black powder had back in those days. Also added to the formula is a deterrent to fouling build up so multiple shots can be taken without swabbing or other fouling control. I've used Pyrodex Ctg, RS and P and they've always performed well for me in muzzleloaders, cap & ball pistols and cartridge guns, except for the most critical target shooting at distances. I've never noticed that Pyrodex or Triple 7 needs more extensive or more thorough cleaning than black powder, or any other substitute for that matter. I always use water based cleaners for all such propellants anyway.

I've also used Triple 7 in muzzleloaders, cap & ball pistols and cartridge guns. In the latter, it works especially well in very small calibers like the .32 Long, giving some of the slugging up effect of black powder on the boolit without crudding the barrel up for following shots.

I've never used any pellets. They don't show up often around here and when they do they're never in the right caliber.

Triple 7 is kind of pricey, but not much worse than Swiss black powder. Pyrodex, last time I looked, was no more expensive than GOEX black powder. When you start talking volume for volume per shot, the price differential becomes pointlessly small.

The only reason the substitutes can be called "inferior" to real black powder is that the "real" stuff has about 500 years more RTD&E work behind it than the substitutes do. I look forward to the day that their development finally catches up so this cruel and incessant beating of a thoroughly dead horse can cease.

[triggerhappy243]

If you are shooting a sidelock, pellets are more difficult to light off. I dont use them. I do use pyrodex and have never had a water absorption issue.... always went bang........... or boom, depending on what end of the rifle you are at. I also will thump the breech end of the barrel to shift the powder into the passway by the nipple. it does seem to eliminate the hangfire problem..... At least for me.

And I am very anal about cleaning this rifle. when in doubt do it twice.

[shredder]

I have used and tested them all. I currently use the holy black, but in many many past hunting seasons Pyrodex select was in the barrel. I always preferred loose because in my testing, in my rifle, at the range, pellets never gave me the accuracy I needed. Triple 7 is nice but again Pyrodex set the accuracy bar very high. IMR white hots are the only pellets that I would use as they actually do shoot very well in my rifle.

Pyrodex is known to have storage issues once open and exposed to air. I have seen this first hand and for me, I try to shoot up the can within 6 months after opening it. New hunting season, new can.

This whole thing is pretty subjective and I would bet my next paycheck that your results in your gun will be entirely different. IF you can manage it , get all the powders gathered and get out to the range. Take a trip for each powder if you can. That way you are not confusing results. I have found that loading one powder on another's residue can give you funky results (go figure!) Your particular rifle will likely respond to changes in priming as well so be sure to run the gamut with each owder. Try some 209, some MZ 209(lighter), and anything else your rifle can handle. I use a small rifle primer in a special 209 shaped "cup" that can be reloaded forever with a special little tool kit. They took muzzle loader accuracy to a new place for me. Check out this site prbullet.com

[Charlie U.]

I prefer loose Pyrodex over the pellets just because it lets me use specific loads for specific boolits.

As to shelf life. If you leave Pyrodex out it will absorb humidity and go bad. Under very humid conditions it will be turned into garbage within a few months. On the other hand if you keep your powder containers secure inside an air tight ammo can the shelf life is excellent. I have used Pyrodex from a bottle that had been first opened six years or more ago but was in perfect condition by having been sealed up in an ammo can.

[triggerhappy243]

I went shooting last month with my T/C 50 cal. renegade to try out some more of the LEE r.e.a.l. bullets. and low and behold I had an open can of pyrodex. been opened maybe 6 years and I hit what I was aiming at. But must mention 3 to 5 % humidity may have helped.... just to be fair. going to go out some more and do more experimenting.

[starmac]

I left (forgot about) pyrodex and some lubed boolits in some cheap speed loaders over 2 years and they fired fine. This was in New Mexico with very little humidity, but it seemed like an opened container would have lasted forever.

[dlbarr]

I was once interested in so-called smokeless BP substitutes and bought a couple different brands, pyrodex & triple 7. I found that, rather than being easier to clean up after, they were equally as difficult to clean and, if left to set for a day or two, far more corrosive than the real thing. On top of that, both of these brands had significant ignition problems in my percussion GM-barreled rifles. I finally decided the only propellant I'll ever use in my MLs is genuine BP.

Besides, it smells soooo goood!!

Never tried any of that stuff in pellet form, I can't imagine that I'd had better success with it than the powdered stuff anyway.

[Grapeshot]

I've shot Pyrodex on and off since it was introduced back in 1976. Since I had it pounded into me by my History Teacher to ALWAYS CLEAN your muzzle loader after you shoot it with hot soapy water, I never had a corrosion problem. However, When I tried to use Pyrodex in my Shiloh Sharp's 1863 Carbine, I had a lot of failure to fire problems. I had to use 10 grains of 4Fg against the end of my paper cartridges as a primer charge to set the Pyrodex off. It sure works in my .45-70 and .45-60 rifles.

[Lead Fred]

Its all c rap, dont work in the flinter, nor the BPCR, so got no use for it.
Thats why I keep 10lbs of holy black in the sump most of the time

[oldred]

Its all c rap, dont work in the flinter, nor the BPCR, so got no use for it.
Thats why I keep 10lbs of holy black in the sump most of the time

That's the way it is for me also, just my choice, IMHO the subs are a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

[doc1876]

I have a can here that was my fathers. It is over 20 yrs old, and never opened. That is my opinion on it in as nice a way as I can put it.

[triggerhappy243]

send it to me. I also have some 20 yrs old. still burns the same as the day it was made.

[rmark]

I use loose Pyrodex or black powder, never tried pellets. Ten year old Pyrodex RS and 20 year old black have both worked fine (both stored in my storm cellar). I clean well with lots of water, dry the bore, oil with Hoppes. Never had any problems, I live in a fairly dry climate.

[salvadore]

I've been shooting C&B revolvers off and on since '68 (walker colt, don't know who made it). Started shooting pyrodex out of a '58 Remington, and it allowed me to shoot more before fouling shut me done than bp. I believe the makers claimed it was less corrosive than bp, don 't know if that is still the case. I have containers of pyrodex downstairs that seems just fine.

[Motor]

Its all c rap, dont work in the flinter, nor the BPCR, so got no use for it.
Thats why I keep 10lbs of holy black in the sump most of the time

Bull **** !!!!!!!! People are just too stupid to READ THE DIRECTIONS.

I use FFg 777 in my FLINTLOCK and have so for years. My brother-in-law uses freekin Pyrodex Pellets in his. The Hodgdon Reloading manual has a muzzle loading section plus there are directions printed on the 777 bottle for use in flintlocks.

FFg 777 kicks BPs *** grain for grain in velocity. 90gr of loose 777 primed with 10gr of FFFFg black will shoot a 385gr Hornady 1650 f/s. 100gr of FFg black will only get you 1325 f/s. This was from a T/C 50cal. Renegade flintlock.

I use loose Pyrodex RS in a cheap Traditions side lock. 50 to 70 grains depending if both deer and squirrel or if only squirrel are in season. I use a home cast 250gr REAL boolit and it is VERY accurate and ignition is reliable with standard #11 caps.

I have nothing against BP. The fact is you can buy Pyrodex and 777 just about anywhere and most of the time you can get it after ML season on clearance.

I'm real tired of this BS about clean up. If you say 777 is harder to clean up after than BP you just simply have never used it.

Motor

[triggerhappy243]

Coffee anyone?

[krag35]

I have been shooting Pyrodex, both "P" and "RS" for 30 years. In caplock rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. I have never had an ignition problem, nor any problems cleaning them. Have also used Pyrodex "RS" in my 444 Marlin with useable results. On a lark, I loaded a mag full of 45 ACP with "P" and it functioned fine in my P220. I have never noticed a problem with Pyrodex getting weaker with age, but then, I am in the practice of screwing the lids back on my powder cans. I can not speak to triple 7 or pellets of any kind, I have not used them.

[Tackleberry41]

The pellets are horribly overpriced for what you get, faster yes, but you get alot more shots to a lbs of loose stuff than you will a box of the pellets. And of course your sort of stuck with whatever volume the pellets are made at, usually the wrong volume for best accuracy. And as pointed out it doesnt light as easy, fine with inline guns and 209 primers, but an issue in side locks.

777 is higher energy, so you can use a little less, tho I have found it to be a little higher priced than pyro so probably evens out.

I have switched over to the real stuff, not that I threw out the various 777 and pyro I had picked up. Never known pyro to go bad, it will clump up often, but break it up and it seems to work fine. You can usually pick up pyro at wal mart at the end of the season on sale for $20/lbs. The real stuff requires mail order, with a minimum order, and someone has to be there to sign for it. Or a drive to one of the few places that will bother stocking it. For me 1 1/2 drive.

[Powder Burn]

I use it all. It's not an either or for me. BP for my Flint and Cap lock rifles and pistols and Trip 7 2F granulated for my deer hunting Inlines. I found (for deer hunting), by converting to grains from "by volume" gives me more consistency so I weigh all my loads. Pellets work ok but I needed to tweek my loads so I went to granular. Don't really care which cleans up better since I only shoot once during the firearm season. I did read Trip 7 degrades over time and may loose a few ft/sec. but I haven't shot a deer yet that can outrun that boolet, including the 8 pt I took last Fri. My powder is at least 5 years old, but is kept dry and cool at all times. There appears to be some strong opinions about BP and subs so please take it easy on me, I have delicate sensibilities.

[triggerhappy243]

I finally got to shoot my muzzle loader today all of 2 rounds. Dang cold and windy. but I did shoot the 2 rounds to point of aim and I am happy with the way it shot. I did not need to fire a cap first as I wanted to see where she hits on a clean barrel and after swabbing after the first. this is a 2 shot group fired at 50 yards burning pyrodex RS. (80 GR.) no underwad, standard #11 cap. T/C renegade 50 cal. firing a T/C maxi-Ball. lube was T/C bore butter in the lower lube groove only. these 2 rounds are 1-1/2 inch apart on centers. 2 dead deer or elk if that was what I shot at. Cant wait for spring.

[OverMax]

"Just my observation between the two powders as I recall."
Tried 2-FFG Pyrodex loose and 2-FFG Groex both on the same day years ago in my Hawken 54s sighting. Seems to me the Pyrodex was a bit harder to clean out of my barrel verses the Gorex. Although I did get a extra shot or two from Pyrodex use before it too needed to be swabbed. Just a simple patched ball with Wonder Lube was all that was used in the experiment.

[triggerhappy243]

Good point. I do remember that when I was wiping out the barrel after my shots that there was a "CRUSTY" spot down at the bottom of the stroke. When it gets bad, I wire bore brush it and dump out any fouling that has accumulated. Also important that I mention I dry swab the bore between each and every shot.... to keep the fouling build up down to a minimum. Still a nice tight group for someone who has not fired this in 4 years.

[Rick Hodges]

I hunt with 777 2f. 110gr. and a 300 gr. Hornady xtp, makes just under 1800fps in my TC Omega. The same this year as it did 5 yrs ago...yep the same can of powder, stored in my cool humid basement. Average velocity 1785fps originally and 1787fps this year (3 shot average).

Yes I have shot other cans in the meantime but it convinced me that the rumors of opened cans of BPS going bad/deteriorating in a short period of time is pure hogwash. 777 does leave a crud ring for a few inches in front of the seated load...and care must be taken to clean it out, but it is no harder to clean than black. I used black in my 54 TC Scout because I had heard of difficulty igniting it in cold temps with a conventional percussion cap. Soooo, I tried it with sabots in -15 weather in the Scout...perhaps the vented ignition system with the Scouts unique nipple/breech system makes a difference...but...at least in this rifle, another old wives tale. It fired flawlessly. I still use black in my sidelocks and the Scout if using full caliber maxi's.

Black is nigh impossible to buy in this area unless I am willing to drive out of state or have large quantities shipped in. The substitutes are a viable alternative that keep a lot of us shooting...."Holy Black" is useless if it is unobtainable.

[fouronesix]

I don't know about unobtainable or large minimum quantities or excess expense?

Powder Inc, shipping and hazmat incl- 5 lbs GOEX delivered to your door- 122.00
That's 24.40 per lb.

Grafs, shipping and hazmat included- 5 lbs Schuetzen delivered to your door- 111.40
That's 22.28 per lb.

Price delivered goes down with larger increment per order

[dtknowles]

5 pounds is more than some of us will use in many years.

Tim

[Tar Heel]

Loose is $14/lb. Pellets aren't.
Loose is infinitely divisible. Pellets aren't.
BP and substitutes should smoke. It isn't smokeless and that's why we shoot it.
Pyrodex lasts a very long time if you store it correctly. I still have some RS from 1990.

If you want all the modern parameters and modern niceties, buy a modern gun and shoot smokeless cartridges. Simple eh?

[dondiego]

5 pounds is more than some of us will use in many years.

Tim

Do you have any friends that might need a pound?

[dtknowles]

Do you have any friends that might need a pound?

Nope, none of them even reload much and you can shoot cartridge rifles in primitive season here. I have two revolvers and two rifles but I don't shoot them more than enough to be sure they still perform properly. I load black in my 450 BPE and that is a big charge but again, I don't shoot 40 rounds a year. I have two partial cans of black for the 450 BPE, I hope they last until I stumble across more black locally. I shoot subs in the other guns and I have enough Pryodex and 777 to last a while if I start shooting them more and there is more at the store if I need it.

Tim

P.S. Percussion caps are becoming hard to source locally, hope somebody has some at the gun show next month.

[dondiego]

Why are percussion caps $8 per hundred?

[dtknowles]

Why are percussion caps $8 per hundred?

Not that would pay that but where were they? Local shop or on-line?

Tim

[dondiego]

There are plenty at Cabela's in Dundee, MI.

[RJH]

I've got some old, old pyrodex rs that still works fine.

[shadowcaster]

Loose is $14/lb. Pellets aren't.
Loose is infinitely divisible. Pellets aren't.
BP and substitutes should smoke. It isn't smokeless and that's why we shoot it.
Pyrodex lasts a very long time if you store it correctly. I still have some RS from 1990.

If you want all the modern parameters and modern niceties, buy a modern gun and shoot smokeless cartridges. Simple eh?

+1
14$ a pound.. Where? I would buy 10 pounds if at that price.

I have not tried pellets so I can't say, but for me, I find the best use for BP substitutes is in a break open shotgun. Load'm up in either brass cases or use the Short Lane 209 muzzleloader adapter. Either way, you get sure fire ignition with 209 primers and clean up is simple. For brass cases.. drop them in some soapy hot water, swirl then dry. For the break open shotgun.. remove the barrel, soak and swab in hot soapy water (in one end and out the other), dry thoroughly and oil, then reassemble. Patched round balls, 3 inch groups at 50 yards, I call that a good day! :)

Shad