Bulkier powder recommendation for .38 Spec.

[Triggernosis]

What would be a good case-filling powder for loading 158 RNFP boolits in .38 Spec.? I'm currently using W-231, but there's so little of it in there I'm afraid I'm going to load a too-hot round by mistake, even though I visually check all cases before I put a boolit on top. Is there any other power that will fill up the case a little better for me?

[Calamity Jake]

Trail Boss

[Poygan]

Red Dot.

[smkummer]

good old unique but 231 sure flows through a lee 1000 progressive much better.

[runfiverun]

flake powders like 700-x, red-dot, PB, green-dot, maybe even bulls-eye.
going to the slightly slower faster ones like green-dot or American select would use a tick more powder too which would help even more.

[mdi]

'Couple of good answers above, but, and FWIW, I wouldn't advise anyone to depend on powder to take the place of Reloading Safety 101. Very simple to establish good safe reloading techniques right from the start. It's very easy to look in each case to see if there is a double charge or a no charge, been doin' it that way since 1969...

[flyer1]

I use accurate nitro 100. Flake powder. Does not meter well but I can see a double charge.

[Nobade]

FFFg. Fill 'er up and put a boolit on top. Pretty much all I ever use any more in handgun cartridges.

-Nobade

[Triggernosis]

'Couple of good answers above, but, and FWIW, I wouldn't advise anyone to depend on powder to take the place of Reloading Safety 101. Very simple to establish good safe reloading techniques right from the start. It's very easy to look in each case to see if there is a double charge or a no charge, been doin' it that way since 1969...
Did you read my original post thoroughly?

[fouronesix]

+2 Trail Boss

[Bzcraig]

FFFg. Fill 'er up and put a boolit on top. Pretty much all I ever use any more in handgun cartridges.

-Nobade

This is is a first for me, can you elaborate please?

[Quiettime]

+3 TB and I never used bullseye but Unique is about the same as Universal and those are both good ones I have used.

[opos]

I choot Trail boss with 125 grain rnfp and 158 grain rnfp.. with a 12 hardness...Cowboy series from Missouri...love them...and no way to double charge...I'm older...like gentle loads (but accurate) and this really fits the bill..I see Missouri is now selling coated projectiles and I plan on trying those next..I do not have leading problems in any of my 357's (a GP 100 and 2 Blackhawks as well as an "original" Vaquero Sheriff in .357).

[petroid]

I think that it means that by using blackpowder you can't overcharge a case

[Bzcraig]

I think that it means that by using blackpowder you can't overcharge a case

I too made that assumption but I'm curious how much it would compress, does he use it in high pressure cases, what kind of velocity is achieved, etc.

[Nobade]

Yes, black powder. The amount of compression isn't extremely critical but I usually shoot for about 1/8". A 38 spl case will hold 19.5 grains usually. The original 38 spl loads held 21.5 grains in balloon head brass, and can be duplicated in 357 mag cases. A 4 inch revolver will hit 800-900 fps with a 158 gr. boolit depending on the quality of the powder. Rifles will go 1150 - 1200 fps. Use soft boolits like air cooled wheelweights and the appropriate black powder compatible lube. Clean your gun and cases with water. Lots more to it but that's the quickie version.

-Nobade

[bangerjim]

Trail Boss (if you can find it!) will fill 'er up nicely! I use it all the time. Looks like little flat donuts.

Keep in mind when you DO find it, there is only 9oz in that bottle!

banger

[bedbugbilly]

To follow up on Nobade . . . I agree with him . . . I load smokeless in my 38 spl. - usually Bulls Eye, Unique or Red Dot . . . BUT . . . there is nothing like some 38s loaded up with FFFG Black Powder! Sort of gives you that "old time feeling"! :-)

BP requires a "compressed load" so there is no air / space in the casing. I not only load up 38 spl but 38 Colt Short and 38 Colt Long to shoot out of my 38 Spl. - on my Handi Rifle - I've loaded up 357 with 3F Goex with some good results. Just as a side note - in my BP loads I use boolits out of both a Lyman 358242 - 121 gr RN and 358-311 - 158 gr RN. We all know that the 38 spl. is about 1/10 of and inch shorter than a 357 casing . . . and a 38 Colt Long is about 1/10" shorter than the 38 spl. casings. For loading the 357 with BP, I use a dipper made from a 38 spl. casing and for the 38 spl., I use a dipper made from a 38 Colt Short casing. Dipping and measuring by volume gives a decent compressed load when either of the boolits I've mentioned are seated. Of course you have to use a BP lube to keep the fouling soft - clean up is easy with hot water/soap - dry and oil. You need to de-cap the casings after shooting the black powder and wash them well. I try to use nickel casings as much as I can as the BP seems to clean up better in them.

For the 38 Colt Shorts - I made a dipper and trimmed to length until it gave me a volume measurement where the powder was about a 1/10" below the case mouth - this gives a good compression with the 121 round nose when seated. I use a standard small pistol primer (usually CCI) for my 38 BP loads.

Not what you asked as I'm sure you're looking for "smokeless" but someday, give the BP load a try - lots of fun, lots of smoke and once you smell the "Holy Black", you'll be hooked!

[Char-Gar]

How does one put too much powder in a case, if they are being careful about what they do and visually inspect each case before seating the bullet?

As I read your post, you are asking for a powder which will compensate for careless handloading. My answer is just don't be careless. A careless handloader will have problems regardless of which components he uses. In fact, careless people should not handload or even have guns.

I have loaded hundreds of thousands of 38 Special rounds with Bulleye powder with nary a problem.

[mdi]

Yep, read it yesterday and again today. My first reply stands...

Just think of all the good loads one would loose by not using Bullseye or W231, just to be"safe".:-(

BTW; this is just my reloading technique. I choose powders for how they preform and have my routine that I've used for quite a few years. If you choose a specific technique that works for you, great! I have mine, you have yours.

Good shootin'. :mrgreen:

[fouronesix]

Here's the original question.

"Bulkier powder recommendation for .38 Spec.
What would be a good case-filling powder for loading 158 RNFP boolits in .38 Spec.?"


Trail Boss answers that question. Plus it meters extremely well and accurately through most drum type measures. Plus it is easy to ignite. Plus it is relatively clean burning.

Remember just because it's extremely bulky with low density does not mean it's a slow burning powder. It is a fast burning powder.

[Digital Dan]

Small charges of fast powder and concerns about double charging... Sounds like the thoughtful use of a cartridge block and a flashlight is in order. Charge the case, put it in the load block and repeat. Flashlight exam when finished. Variations of powder column height stand out like Harry Reid at a Republican convention. This from someone who just loaded 2.3 gr of Bullseye in some .30-30 cases.

Black powder is an option too, a very good one. Too many folks believe too much voodoo about BP.

[Piedmont]

Some of us load all our handgun ammo on a progressive press. This rules out looking in every case unless you want to slow things down substantially.

[DonH]

Among the fast powders mentioned (aside from Trail Boss) I think 700X and PB are probably the bulkiest. I have shot MUCH Bullseye and a some 231. My eyes always told me 231 occupied more space. If it were my .38 and I wanted a fuller case AND accuracy I would use Unique. If a powder gives me what I am after I don't give a hoot how it meters. Actually I think a feller ought no be without a can of Unique. For my two cents worth and a buck you can buy a coffee.

[kenn]

I use bullseye in 9, .45acp, and .38spl. They are loaded in a tray and I use a flashlight to visually inspect all 50 before placing bullets. Try double charging and you'll see that you can easily tell if you have done so, even when the charge is 3.6-4.0 grains in a larger case. Obviously make sure to dump the double charge back in the hopper and don't load it.

[Mr Peabody]

SR 4756 does a good job

[Petrol & Powder]

If you're paying attention to what you're doing.......you will not double charge a case. Enough said about that.

WW 231 was my go-to powder for 38 Special until 231 became almost unobtainable. I really liked 231, it metered well, it was fairly cheap (not anymore) and it produced good results. Unique is a great standby and I've become rather dependent on it. Bullseye works but is even denser that 231 and takes up very little space in a 38 Special casing. Again, not really a problem unless you are an idiot.

I recently came across some Hodgdon CFE-Pistol powder and I was pleasantly surprised with it. It meters as well as 231, produces good groups and burns cleanly. I may not go back to 231 even if it returns to the market.

[guncheese]

CSB-5
its perfectly fluffy
and you can buy it
unlike anything else

im going to try CSB-1 in 38 but really it will be slow (think like universal/unique slow) not perfect for 38 or 45

and im going to grab some CSB-5 for myself soon

[303Guy]

Hodgdon Clays is pretty bulky at (0.1462). It's slightly less bulky than Alliant E3 (0.14892). Royal Scot is even bulkier at 0.15870 but Trail Boss trumps them all at 0.21716. Red Dot is 0.14130 and Bulls Eye is only 0.1064 and Unique is 0.1092 so Unique will fill the case more than Bull Eye because more of it gets used. SR 4756 is 0.11.

Here is the Powder Density list I got all that from; http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/VMD'S.pdf

[guncheese]

Hodgdon Clays is pretty bulky

is any Clays making its way down there? (i have a few ounces left and im being very stingy with it)
unless very lucky finding old stock, it isnt up here
700x is about as close as there is up here.... and im learning to like 700x :drinks: and that is scarce are hen's teeth

[Triggernosis]

I look at it as another safety step in my already meticulous practice. I never mentioned being careless or haphazard with my reloading.
Hall monitor?

How does one put too much powder in a case, if they are being careful about what they do and visually inspect each case before seating the bullet?

As I read your post, you are asking for a powder which will compensate for careless handloading. My answer is just don't be careless. A careless handloader will have problems regardless of which components he uses. In fact, careless people should not handload or even have guns.

I have loaded hundreds of thousands of 38 Special rounds with Bulleye powder with nary a problem.

[MT Gianni]

I look at it as another safety step in my already meticulous practice. I never mentioned being careless or haphazard with my reloading.
Hall monitor?
You did not mention but implied it in the eyes of every reader with the question. With safe reloading practices the need for a bulkier powder is outweighed by the ability to measure the amount of powder correctly, when thrown from the measure and when seen in the case.

[bugkiller]

Vih't Tin Star. Low density, bulky powder.

[303Guy]

I bought mine a while back before Trail Boss was known to me.

I notice the OP getting flamed for 'lack of safe loading practices' but really, there is no such thing as being too careful or over-minimizing the chances of an error. I'm all for bulkier powders. We read from time to time of someone who was always super careful and never made any errors for sometimes most of a lifetime then suddenly his gun blows up! That blow up would not have happened with a bulkier powder. But failing the availability of a suitable bulkier powder, we have to make do with ultra anal safe loading practices. A bulkier powder has already saved me or at least my gun (which allowed me to live long enough to revise my loading practices :oops:).

[Char-Gar]

I look at it as another safety step in my already meticulous practice. I never mentioned being careless or haphazard with my reloading.
Hall monitor?

The meticulous handloader does not need a another safety step. If another safety step is needed, the handloader is not being meticulous. Only the careless handloader who is not paying attention needs redundancy is safety steps to protect himself from himself.

Not a hall monitor, just an advocate for common sense.

[Char-Gar]

I bought mine a while back before Trail Boss was known to me.

I notice the OP getting flamed for 'lack of safe loading practices' but really, there is no such thing as being too careful or over-minimizing the chances of an error. I'm all for bulkier powders. We read from time to time of someone who was always super careful and never made any errors for sometimes most of a lifetime then suddenly his gun blows up! That blow up would not have happened with a bulkier powder. But failing the availability of a suitable bulkier powder, we have to make do with ultra anal safe loading practices. A bulkier powder has already saved me or at least my gun (which allowed me to live long enough to revise my loading practices :oops:).

Do not equate disagreement with flaming. One is a different opinion and the other in an intend to insult.

I won't throw numbers and years, but I have never need safety step and safety step to protect myself from myself. If one practices basic reloading safety and does without exception then there will be no need to keep adding safety upon safety.

In these days of powder scarcity and increased cost, using two or three time the amount of powder because we are afraid we will hurt ourselves if we don't does not seem to me, to be a wise path to follow.

There indeed has been a drastic increase in blow up firearms in recent years due to the widespread use of progressive reloaders. These machines are safe enough if their operators can dedicate 100% of their attention to the task in from of them. But if they don't, problems can occur.

Being an ordinary human being and not needed buckets full of ammo and enjoy the reloading process, I avoid progressive reloaders like the plague.

[pjames32]

I've been reloading pistol for over 50 years. I've loaded a ton of .38 spec 3.0gr Bullseye wadcutter loads. I now load on a progressive and cant use my old trick of a loading block so I have a light over the powder station on my SDB and look at EVERY round before I put a boolit in. Safety is paramount and I DO LIKE a bulkier powder. This is a GOOD thread!

[rintinglen]

I have become a big fan of Power Pistol. I load my bulk ammo on a Dillon, but I like to check the powder level as I place the boolit on the charged case. It is easier when you have a bulkier powder, 5.4 grains of Power Pistol under a 358-311 is easier for me to check than 3.5 grains of "Unobtanium," the powder formerly known as Bullseye. Unique works well for the same purpose, but does not meter as well as Power Pistol.

[aviator41]

I think that it means that by using blackpowder you can't overcharge a case

Trail boss has that same unique property. It's specifically formulated to allow the cowboy shooter to safely load as much powder as can be put in typical cowboy cases (38,357,45Colt, 45ACP,44-40, 38-40 etc) without exceeding safe pressure levels. This is NOT the typical scenario with smokeless powder. Trailboss looks like mini cherios (as my daughter puts it). while full cases will make lots of noise, have strong recoil, burn dirty or not completley, at no point will it put the shooter or firearm in danger.

It's one of the few smokeless powders that can do this - it's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. For what you're wanting to do, it's the perfect powder.

[Bullwolf]

I've been working up loads with Alliant Steel, a large flake shotgun powder.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105259&d=1403162857&thumb=1

It was one of the few powders suitable for pistol, that was still left on shelves during the great powder crunch.

I bought a few lbs of Steel that were all of the same lot number, and I have been loading and testing velocities with it in both 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum. I don't see why it wouldn't work at least as well as Blue Dot would in 38 Special.

My lot of Steel (CE 0519) yielded velocities that were approximately 1 grain slower than Hercules Blue Dot in both 357 Magnum, and 44 Magnum. One could easily use Blue Dot data for a starting point, and I did.

Alliant Steel is extremely bulky, and case filling. (.10630 for Alliant Steel) This could cause some metering problems, as it is so large it may be a hassle to get it to run through a powder measure. I trickled all of my Steel charges, using an RCBS Charge Master 1500.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_187904efc51e484b72.jpg


There's quite a bit of information about the powder in the Alliant Steel thread here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171896-Alliant-Steel/page5

Image from the above linked thread of an almost full case of 357 Magnum loaded with Alliant Steel Powder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105262&d=1400394137

Chronograph data for Alliant Steel on 05-17-2014 75°F
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105260&d=1403162857&thumb=1
357 Mag Steel handload 158gr JFP OAL 1.590 Primer CCI #500 Std Sm pistol.
Test pistol is a Dan Wesson 357M w/4 inch barrel assembly.

158 grain 357 Magnum Factory ammunition baseline.
Factory Federal 158 grain JHP = 1217 FPS Average Velocity

12.0 grains of A.Steel = 1036 FPS Average Velocity
13.0 grains of A.Steel = 1186 FPS Average Velocity
14.0 grains of A.Steel =1258 FPS Average Velocity
13.0 Grains of H.Blue Dot = 1271 FPS Average Velocity

--------------------------------------------------
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118442&d=1412654744&thumb=1
---------------------------------------------------
Chronograph data for Alliant Steel 10-05-2014 Temp 77°F
44 Mag Steel handload 240 gr JFP OAL 1.610 Primer CCI #300 Std Lg pistol.
Test pistol is a Dan Wesson 445 Supermag w/6 inch barrel assembly.

240 Grain 44 Magnum Factory ammunition baseline.
Factory S & B 240GR = 1201 FPS Average Velocity
Factory Federal 240GR = 1352 FPS Average Velocity

15.0 grains of A.Steel = 1139 FPS Average Velocity
16.0 grains of A.Steel = 1145 FPS Average Velocity
17.0 grains of A.Steel = 1236 FPS Average Velocity
16.0 Grains of H.Blue Dot = 1241 FPS Average Velocity


- Bullwolf

[220]

In these days of powder scarcity and increased cost, using two or three time the amount of powder because we are afraid we will hurt ourselves if we don't does not seem to me, to be a wise path to follow.


Do you load by volume or weight?
My understanding of the OP question was he was after a bulkier powder not a slower powder this would lead me to believe he wants to use similar weight charges but with a powder that takes up more space. We obviously have a different view what equals more powder, to me using a bulkier powder doesn't equal using 2 or 3 times the amount of powder if the charge weight is the same.

Trailboss is the logical answer to a bulkier fast powder.

[sandman228]

I recently picked up a s&w model 10-5 with a 4 inch barrel and have been experimenting with 4 different bullets 105 swc ,158 swc,158rn,and 148wc . ive only tried red dot ,bullseye and herco so far . ive had the best luck with herco over the 148 wc .