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View Full Version : Feeding Big Meplats in 1911's Continued - The LBT LFN



Bigslug
09-30-2014, 10:08 PM
The Science Project continues. . .

If you're unfamiliar with the 452423 work I did to start this quest, you might want to go here first: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?237958-Reliably-Feeding-the-452423-A-Science-Project

You'll hopefully learn a little about how your gun runs and magazines to feed it with. I'll hit the high points here, however.

And more about the mold we're launching this new thread with: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254678-Pics-of-an-LBT-Mold-for-those-that-were-wondering

Now that the preliminaries out of the way, let me open with the following:

Yeaaaaahhhhh. . .THIS was what I wanted! I just didn't know it at the time.:happy dance:

It seems that we tinkering types have a tendency to bend the design parameters of objects that were designed for one use (in this case, shooting round-nose, full-metal jacket hardball), toward something completely different (in this case, lobbing flat-nosed engines of destruction). There are often some contradictions to contend with, as I learned in the 452423 thread. As you know by now, I got it to work without much difficulty, but not to the point that it satisfied all the little voices coming from the back of my head. There was a fair amount of battering to the meplat edge and (depending on gun/magazine combination) the front driving band that didn't look like it was going to go away.

What I learned (in large part due to .35Remigton's input) is that when the feed pawl of a 1911's slide strikes the back of a cartridge to strip it off the magazine - ESPECIALLY the first couple off the stack of a full mag - the nose of the cartridge is being shoved not only forward into the ramp, but it ALSO rotates downward slightly. The result of this is that the forces that can deform a cast bullet's nose are coming from two directions.

The ideal solution to deal with this on the 452423 would be to increase the COAL to as long as will fit in the magazine, so that the nose strikes higher and farther forward on the ramp, but this created another problem. The longer COAL caused the SWC shoulder to jam into the throats on certain guns, creating difficulties with manual extraction, incomplete chambering, and in one alarming episode, a blown out case that may have been due to bullet setback in the case and excessive powder compression. In short, clean feeding of an undamaged bullet wanted the loads with the 452423 to be longer, but reliability and safety required them to be seated shorter. Catch 22, I'm afraid (or would that be Catch .45? :confused:)

So I did some studying and ended up with a 4C 452-230-LFN mold from LBT, which you can see plenty of pics of in the link above, but here's a few of the product from it:

Here's three of them next to the NOE 453423 I used for much of the parent thread testing.
117899
These are some loaded slugs that I purchased from Montana Bullet Works to prototype with and make the decision on whether to order the mold. These were cast of air-cooled Lyman #2. I water-dropped mine out of a wheel-weight / shot blend to get the hardness up to 23-24 BHN, on the logic that this would help resist nose-battering.
117900
The mold proportions are pretty much perfect for the .45ACP. Seating depth is a no-brainer - run it into the case until the shiny portion burnished on by your lube-sizer is alllllllllmost totally concealed by the brass, and you will be right at about max length for a 1911 magazine. This starts the ogive right at the case mouth and eliminates the potential jamming of an SWC shoulder against a short throat.

So. . .based on past experience with the 452423, I did test-feeds for the LBT with a GI-tapered lip magazine in both an unmodified WWII 1911A1 and a Springfield Operator by inserting a fully loaded mag and releasing the slide. This is difficult to quantify in any way other than to say that I've run A LOT of rounds through A LOT of .45's over the years. In both cases, the gun felt like it was feeding air - I detected no hitchy-kerchunky resistance of the gun feeding the round whatsoever. As I like to say, slick as greased eel boogers. They have a slight hit on the meplat, but more on the ogive. Considering that this is a .32-.33" meplat, it's very clean.

So how do they shoot?
117902
3 1/8" group shot from kneeling out of the Springfield from 25 yards off a sandbag atop a small stepladder. You can safely assume that the indoor range lighting and the shooter doubled the group size - I personally doubt I can do a lot better without a rifle. This is after I fired the first 20 rounds of the test batch to get the bore filmed up with Ben's Red.

Out of the 25, I had one failure to fully chamber - which I chalk up to insufficient taper crimp - easily rectified with a light thumb-push forward. These were loaded on the "testing" die set which I use for loading on a single stage. The "production" die set lives on a Dillon tool head and doesn't get out much.

The mold dropped them at .4525", so it was just a light kiss of the sizer to get them to .452". Cleanup of the bore took two passes with a loose-fitting Bore Snake.

I started these a little on the hot side, judging by the primers, but the chronograph has yet to speak its piece. I'll get y'all that data as soon as I can, but deer season kicks off on October 11, so please forgive me if new data doesn't show up until mid-November. I did at least get the critical part out of my system!

The question came up on the thread I launched about the specifics of the LBT mold, and it may come up here. I'll address it out of the gate: YES, I think the mold is worth the money, and I will be buying more from Veral as soon as I figure out what they're going to be. It casts easily and drops beautiful bullets that are proportioned perfectly for the guns they're destined for.

I'm pretty darned gleeful at the moment. Time for something cold!:drinks:

Bigslug
11-15-2014, 12:50 AM
Finished up deer season last weekend, which gave me time to get back to the Weird Science. I was able to do some velocity workups and penetration testing with this bullet today - loads with Titegroup, lubed with Ben's Red, alloy is water-dropped wheelweight at 23-24 BHN.

Two pics of the same two slugs from slightly different angles:
121833
121834
The slug on the right was actually the second - and only one recovered - from the row of water-filled jugs used as the catch basin for this test. The first one penetrated all NINE jugs I had lined up. The second stopped in jug #8. Whether this was due to the last couple of milk jugs being replaced with Minute Maid OJ jugs or minute variation in the loads - - who can say? In any event, that's about four feet of water and 15-18 layers of jug plastic. The first three jugs in either case showed signs of hydrostatic rupturing, with the rest perforated in a nice, straight line. I am EXTREMELY stoked by this performance, now being confident that this projectile is good to go for any medium-sized critter at sensible distances.

The only deformation of this slug is a very slight rounding on the 6:00 edge of the meplat (closest to the camera), where it hit the feed ramp on the way into the chamber. The jugs appear to have done NOTHING to it.

Chrono data from ten shot strings:
4.4 grains: 755fps average and 21fps S.D.
4.5: 780 / 12
4.6: 797 / 15
4.7: 810 / 7 (I think this is what I'll be going into mass production with)
4.8: 827 / 19 (This is what I shot the jugs with. Slight imprints from the breech face on the primers starting to appear)
4.9: 836 / 13
5.0: 857 / 22 (Definite breech face imprints on the primers. Decided this was hotter than where I wanted to be).

Everything fed like greased eel boogers. I think I'm done buying .45ACP molds. Time for happy dance!:happy dance:

jmort
11-15-2014, 01:06 AM
Amazing what LBT meplat will do at moderate velocity. That is a lot of penetration. Most interesting thread.

jaysouth
11-15-2014, 02:02 AM
I have a good supply of 215 gr. SWCs from Magnus bullet co. I think that this is the old Saeco 85 design. I load it over 5.5 grs. HP38.

It feeds perfectly in the GI Checkmate contract mags as well as Metalform and Wilsons.

http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd507/jaysouth100/percy%20priest%20crappie/image807_zps9224e8ec.jpg (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/jaysouth100/media/percy%20priest%20crappie/image807_zps9224e8ec.jpg.html)

StrawHat
11-15-2014, 07:28 AM
Great, just when I thought I had decided on the 452423! I'll be following this thread.

Bigslug
11-15-2014, 10:55 AM
Great, just when I thought I had decided on the 452423! I'll be following this thread.

The LBT turned out to be a MUCH simpler, MUCH less fussy way to get to the same place I was trying to go with the 452423. The guns definitely like it better, the weight is back down within the ACP's "butter zone", and I seriously doubt any deer or pig is going to notice the loss of .01" of meplat. For an autoloader, I think it's the no-brainer better choice. For .452" revolvers, the 452423 gives you a crimp groove and the WC shoulder - it makes a LOVELY hole in paper. We're going to keep using it as the low-recoil slug in wheelguns for my Dad's surgery-rebuilt hands, but its auto days are over for us.

prs
11-15-2014, 03:05 PM
If you still get a little ding on the ogive , try a few of the same boolits with powder coating. It makes them very slick, and the stuff is tough. Not sure if accuracy is on par or not.

prs

DougGuy
11-15-2014, 03:35 PM
Not to steer your thread but bottom line, the boolit must fit in the barrel and go into battery. If you want to seat out long, OR your boolit has a wide meplat and therefore a fairly thick ojive cross section where it jams into the rifling or throat, it's a piece of cake to send the barrel off and have it throated. I get these all the time for shooters that load non-conventional for .45 ACP.

Left - before, right - after:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg.html)

Outpost75
11-15-2014, 04:23 PM
This is the throat which John Taylor put in my .45 ACP H&R Carbine, mashing a .455 Webley Manstopper slug into the rifling and extracting it. Shoots well with hardball too!

121889
121890
121892

Bigslug
11-15-2014, 04:31 PM
DougGuy - yeah. . .throating's a good option for the people with only one .45. People with only one .45 make me a little nervous. There's just something fundamentally wrong with that state of being.:kidding:

DougGuy
11-15-2014, 04:47 PM
Oh I get frequent flyers quite often! Send a Ruger cylinder and 2 1911 barrels.

The Handi Rifle will close on one pushing it into the rifling but a 1911 wouldn't go into battery with that slug crammed into the rifling enough to mark it. Sometimes they shoot better with freebore before the rifling too.

Blammer
11-15-2014, 05:03 PM
Here are some flat points for my 45ACP.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/ruger/DSCN7445.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/ruger/DSCN7445.jpg.html)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7667.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7667.jpg.html)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7163.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7163.jpg.html)

StrawHat
11-16-2014, 07:03 AM
Blammer, does that WC feed in a 1911? I have the SAECO 453, but never tried it in the 1911. It works well in my S&W 25-2 and similar revolvers. Cast hard to about 900 fps.

Bigslug
11-16-2014, 10:30 AM
Blammer, does that WC feed in a 1911?

I think that'll depend a bit on what you mean by "a 1911" (throats, ramps, barrel length, etc...). Another question to ask would be what mags he's using. If I remember my Kimbers correctly, their compacts use integral feed ramps, which would probably help based on the experiments of my 452423 thread. I'd have some concern about the 100% meplat clearing the right side top of the magazine in the early phase of feeding when the noses of the top rounds in the stack are moving down AND forward. Since you're lacking the usual ogive a quarter inch forward of the case mouth, the frame strike gets significantly delayed, and where in the cycle the rim of the round releases from the mag might be a big deal. Parallel wadcutter lips could be your best friend or your worst enemy depending on how long they are - I'd start with tapered GI's in any testing I did with those.

35remington
11-16-2014, 12:18 PM
And the later the ramp strike, the shorter the distance the round has to get into the chamber. Many think, so what? But they're not realizing the round then has to complete the climb to the chamber in a shorter distance, and at a steeper angle, which means the rim approaches the extractor hook at a steeper angle, which means the "window" the rim has to get under the extractor just got smaller, and they just decreased the odds that it will get under said extractor hook reliably. This sharp angle also may brake the slide excessively and contribute to the occasional round that doesn't quite chamber and requires the slide to be nudged forward with your thumb to put the slide in battery.

Minor though it is, that's still a malfunction and completely unacceptable.

Too short and too wide a meplat runs agains the 1911's preferences. Some claim their 1911 will feed them anyway, but it was best said with this phrase: "Just because the gun is feeding does not mean it is feeding correctly."

It sounds touchy-feelie, but tactile impressions are part of the evidence you use to determine correct bullet OAL and profile in choosing the right bullet. If it feels like the round is "hitting" the gun excessively on its way into the chamber, you're running on the ragged edge of a malfunction, and few shoot enough of these weirdly shaped rounds that are sometimes used to really evaluate them as to suitability. When a thou go through the gun without any issues whatsoever, then we can start discussing true, stake your life on the gun reliability. As mentioned, that's just the beginning of reliability evaluation.

Old Murph has a way of showing up just when you don't need him. A little extra meplat and bluntness that contributes to short OAL's are just not worth it in a 1911.

35remington
11-16-2014, 12:34 PM
BS, given that the bullet looks like it seats no deeper in the case than 230 ball, I don't think 857 fps velocities with 5.0 Titegroup are anything to get overly nervous about. I'd pay a lot more attention to velocity than potentially misleading breechface/primer impressions.

That's as heavy as I'd want for continuous use, but you're way below the level at which supposed "battering" of the pistol takes place. Given it's fashionable these days to convert 1911's to 460 Rowland and whang away, 850ish in velocity with a 230 and Titegroup is well within the normal operating envelope of the pistol .

Bigslug
11-16-2014, 01:59 PM
BS, given that the bullet looks like it seats no deeper in the case than 230 ball, I don't think 857 fps velocities with 5.0 Titegroup are anything to get overly nervous about. I'd pay a lot more attention to velocity than potentially misleading breechface/primer impressions.

That's as heavy as I'd want for continuous use, but you're way below the level at which supposed "battering" of the pistol takes place. Given it's fashionable these days to convert 1911's to 460 Rowland and whang away, 850ish in velocity with a 230 and Titegroup is well within the normal operating envelope of the pistol .

I did some pondering on that. The things that factored into that call were:
* Primarily the 7 fps standard deviation of the 4.7 grain 810fps load, and the increase in SD as the loads got hotter. All data considered, I'd rather have more accuracy than another slow-pitch softball's worth of speed.
*The wrecking ball result on the milk jugs with the 827fps load. It's not lacking for splat or penetration.
*My brass contains a fair amount of the randomness that comes with scrounging, as likely will the alloy. Operating well within the comfort zone should eliminate any concerns that might arise from that variability. The ruptured case episode from the 452423 experiment was sufficiently unnerving to make me treat the matter with some respect. I might tinker with hotter, but with greater attention to segregating brass.

With regards to the seating depth: there's almost exactly a quarter inch of bullet inside the case - this is with the slug seated to about what the magazine will allow.

35remington
11-16-2014, 02:35 PM
No argument with any of that reasoning. What I was commenting on was the seeming assumption that pressures with 5 grains are excessive. At that seating depth and velocity, they most assuredly are not. Given more case fill with the heavier load, and more shooting over the chronograph, I would opine that the lower SD with the lighter load was an anomaly. Likely there is little real difference between the two in that regard as well.

Your seating depth is noticeably shallower than the 230 Hornady RN loaded to a more or less "standard" 1.260-1.265." Yet another reason pressures will be in line with standard 45 ACP levels. Even with mixed cases. Velocities are also in line with Hodgdon claims for Titegroup with 230 FMJ of greater seating depth.

Again, no argument with your reasoning, but all indicators, which are multiple, show that standard ACP pressures are not exceeded. I don't trust SD numbers without a whole bunch of shooting.

I would have a hard time arguing the choice of load you made was unsound......but I'm commenting because I use a similar load at a similar velocity with mixed cases using Titegroup, and I sleep well at night!

You might also want to reference Mike Venturino's use of the same charge of 5.0 Titegroup under various 230ish cast bullets in the 45 ACP in Handloader magazine a few issues back, the title being "Ball Duplication loads in the 45 ACP" or something like that. He uses mixed cases as well.

On edit: acknowledging that the load was, to quote you, simply "hotter than you wanted to be." Just saying in my overly verbose way that I'd judge it not to be excessive in any way, and I'd ignore the primer breech face impressions.

Blammer
11-16-2014, 03:42 PM
It feeds quite well in my Kimber you see.

Not sure in other 1911's as I only have a RIA and it's fairly picky about what it likes, even with jacketed ball.

Bigslug
11-16-2014, 04:57 PM
Given more case fill with the heavier load, and more shooting over the chronograph, I would opine that the lower SD with the lighter load was an anomaly. Likely there is little real difference between the two in that regard as well.

Again, no argument with your reasoning, but all indicators, which are multiple, show that standard ACP pressures are not exceeded. I don't trust SD numbers without a whole bunch of shooting.


The load process my dad and I arrived at for rifle some years ago was to load a series of cases with increasing charges and chronograph them sequentially. Basically, there is only ONE example of a given powder charge in a test that might take 20 shots to go from starting to what we determine from pressure signs as maximum. The idea is to look for spots in the workup where velocity doesn't really change over the course of three to four points on the curve, and then pin the final load right in the middle of the hottest of those "flat spots". It hasn't failed to give us sub-MOA results and low SD's in any halfway decent rifle yet. Not an exact corollary here, but somewhat the same process.

Then again, the results of the 4.8-4.9 grain charges pretty much duplicate G.I. hardball exactly. Tradition may yet win out. Not like I'm gonna shoot this stuff for X-count from the 600 yard line. . .

I think I do ultimately need to find a cleaner lube for handguns than Ben's Red. It works great, but it is some smoky, stinky stuff that left a significant semi-circle of crud at the 12:00 of the breech face. Hoping that The Quest boys affix their stamp of approval on something soon.

BD
11-16-2014, 05:07 PM
A familiar looking boolit for sure. Many, many thousands of BDacps have made the trip down the barrel of my 1911s riding 5.0 grains of Titegroup.

122015

castalott
02-21-2015, 04:06 PM
I think I've read where John Browning designed the 45 slide to be slowed down by the feed ramp geometry. This takes some of the inertia impulse away that can damage your sear/hammer edges. I know that when I was a lot younger and dumber, I put a loaded round in the barrel and hit the slide release. ( yes this is wrong for the extractor too!). The moving slide, with no slow down from feeding, slapped home and the inertia impulse sheared the hammer/sear edges and the gun went BOOM. Very luckily all that was injured was the hammer/sear, a kitchen chair and the floor...I read about this very thing in one of those pistol or pistolaro magazines later...The Lee truncated cone round nose feeds so slick in my gun it worries me.....YMMV

Bigslug
02-21-2015, 07:05 PM
I think I've read where John Browning designed the 45 slide to be slowed down by the feed ramp geometry. This takes some of the inertia impulse away that can damage your sear/hammer edges. . .

I think a lot of us will find the following photo instructive:

131594

This is the frame ramp of my Springfield after shooting a couple hundred of these LBT's lubed with Ben's Red and propelled by Titegroup. It seems to be a bit of a dirty combination but for the purpose of showing you what's going on inside a 1911, it's quite illustrative.

These rounds were all fed from Springfield factory 7 rounders. The gun feeds this bullet effortlessly, but if you look at the smudges in the soot on the frame ramp, you'll see at least five different impact points - the low ones being from the first couple rounds out of the mag, the higher ones toward the end of the stack; all owing to the geometry of how the rounds angle themselves when stacked against one another.

The ramp is unquestionably buffering the slide a little bit, as is the tension of the round against the magazine lips and the round or follower below. Not having a round is certainly going to increase battering a little. This is probably part of why the sear engagement on a GI gun is so aggressive - if you look at the hammer carefully as you pull the trigger (DRY FIRE PLEASE!) you'll see the hammer cock back slightly - almost double-action-like - before it drops.

C. Latch
02-21-2015, 07:22 PM
Some weeks ago I ran out of bullets while loading some .45s. Winter hasn't allowed me to cast much, and there I sat with several extra brass cases primed, but no more .45 bullets, except for my .45 colt stuff.

To make a long story short, after doing some research on some old data I had, I picked what should have been a very light load for my .454640 (Mihec .45 hollowpoint styled after the Lyman Devastator) cup-nose HPs (about 270 grains), and loaded them up. They fed perfectly in my lightweight SA 1911 (ramped barrel, AL frame).

I won't share charge specifics except to say that I chose what appeared to be on the very low end of what would even feed. Bang....thwack! Bang...thwack! It took them a while to make it to the 50-yard target in the yard.

That'll probably be the only time I do that, but I had to try.

JohnH
02-21-2015, 07:24 PM
I'm curious, Why did you rule out the RCBS 45-230-CM or the Lee 230-TC

Bigslug
02-21-2015, 07:53 PM
I'm curious, Why did you rule out the RCBS 45-230-CM. . .

Didn't even look at it to be honest, but several strikes against it are:

* 2 cavity only.
* After my experiences with the 452423, I didn't want any kind of WC shoulder


or the Lee 230-TC

Not a truncated cone or bevel base fan.

youngmman
02-25-2015, 04:32 PM
Finished up deer season last weekend, which gave me time to get back to the Weird Science. I was able to do some velocity workups and penetration testing with this bullet today - loads with Titegroup, lubed with Ben's Red, alloy is water-dropped wheelweight at 23-24 BHN.

Two pics of the same two slugs from slightly different angles:
121833
121834
The slug on the right was actually the second - and only one recovered - from the row of water-filled jugs used as the catch basin for this test. The first one penetrated all NINE jugs I had lined up. The second stopped in jug #8. Whether this was due to the last couple of milk jugs being replaced with Minute Maid OJ jugs or minute variation in the loads - - who can say? In any event, that's about four feet of water and 15-18 layers of jug plastic. The first three jugs in either case showed signs of hydrostatic rupturing, with the rest perforated in a nice, straight line. I am EXTREMELY stoked by this performance, now being confident that this projectile is good to go for any medium-sized critter at sensible distances.

The only deformation of this slug is a very slight rounding on the 6:00 edge of the meplat (closest to the camera), where it hit the feed ramp on the way into the chamber. The jugs appear to have done NOTHING to it.

Chrono data from ten shot strings:
4.4 grains: 755fps average and 21fps S.D.
4.5: 780 / 12
4.6: 797 / 15
4.7: 810 / 7 (I think this is what I'll be going into mass production with)
4.8: 827 / 19 (This is what I shot the jugs with. Slight imprints from the breech face on the primers starting to appear)
4.9: 836 / 13
5.0: 857 / 22 (Definite breech face imprints on the primers. Decided this was hotter than where I wanted to be).

Everything fed like greased eel boogers. I think I'm done buying .45ACP molds. Time for happy dance!:happy dance:

I have settled on pretty much one bullet for my Loaded Springfield: the LBT 230 LFN and casts at 225 grns. I use a 93/5/2 alloy with a BHN of 14 and the favorite loads are OAL 1.20", WLP, and either 9grns of Blue Dot or 6.1grns of Unique. Both loads are tack drivers and feed flawlessly. Accurate molds has a design that is almost identical, in fact I haven't found the differences yet.

youngmman
02-25-2015, 04:37 PM
Finished up deer season last weekend, which gave me time to get back to the Weird Science. I was able to do some velocity workups and penetration testing with this bullet today - loads with Titegroup, lubed with Ben's Red, alloy is water-dropped wheelweight at 23-24 BHN.

Two pics of the same two slugs from slightly different angles:
121833
121834
The slug on the right was actually the second - and only one recovered - from the row of water-filled jugs used as the catch basin for this test. The first one penetrated all NINE jugs I had lined up. The second stopped in jug #8. Whether this was due to the last couple of milk jugs being replaced with Minute Maid OJ jugs or minute variation in the loads - - who can say? In any event, that's about four feet of water and 15-18 layers of jug plastic. The first three jugs in either case showed signs of hydrostatic rupturing, with the rest perforated in a nice, straight line. I am EXTREMELY stoked by this performance, now being confident that this projectile is good to go for any medium-sized critter at sensible distances.

The only deformation of this slug is a very slight rounding on the 6:00 edge of the meplat (closest to the camera), where it hit the feed ramp on the way into the chamber. The jugs appear to have done NOTHING to it.

Chrono data from ten shot strings:
4.4 grains: 755fps average and 21fps S.D.
4.5: 780 / 12
4.6: 797 / 15
4.7: 810 / 7 (I think this is what I'll be going into mass production with)
4.8: 827 / 19 (This is what I shot the jugs with. Slight imprints from the breech face on the primers starting to appear)
4.9: 836 / 13
5.0: 857 / 22 (Definite breech face imprints on the primers. Decided this was hotter than where I wanted to be).

Everything fed like greased eel boogers. I think I'm done buying .45ACP molds. Time for happy dance!:happy dance:

I have settled on pretty much one bullet for my Loaded Springfield: the LBT 230 LFN and casts at 225 grns. I use a 93/5/2 alloy with a BHN of 14 and the favorite loads are OAL 1.20", WLP, and either 9grns of Blue Dot or 6.1grns of Unique. Both loads are tack drivers and feed flawlessly. Accurate molds has a design that is almost identical, in fact I haven't found the differences yet.

Char-Gar
02-25-2015, 05:42 PM
All of this sounds like folks reinventing the wheel. With the exodus of the original members stuff has fallen through the cracks.

Some years ago, members of this board developed a version of the RCBS Cowboy bullet for use in the 45 autopistol. Quite a bit of work was done with it and one or more group buys were done with Lee for this custom design. The bullet was called "45 BCM", and a search should turn up plenty of information on this bullet, it's development and loading.

This ground has been plowed over a long time ago.

I was shooting the 452423 in the 45 autopistol 50 years ago, when folks said it could not be done. It will work, but it is far from the best choice. BTW Accurate Molds makes several large meplat bullet molds for the 45 autopistol.

I guess everybody has his turn at bat, but really this is tired old stuff that has been done a long time ago. If somebody wants to reinvent the wheel then I guess he is entitled to do so.

mold maker
02-25-2015, 06:04 PM
It seems as if we would run out of something to do, if it weren't for re inventing. Just how much is really new.

35remington
02-25-2015, 08:58 PM
FWIW.....the RCBS 230 has no wadcutting shoulder or any shoulder of any kind. It is a RNFP.

Char-Gar
02-25-2015, 11:55 PM
It seems as if we would run out of something to do, if it weren't for re inventing. Just how much is really new.

Well, you could spend less time dreaming and more time shooting.

Bigslug
02-26-2015, 01:09 AM
The thing is, when they invented the ACTUAL wheel, it got a lot more publicity, so more folks got word and generally stopped experimenting with cubes on the ends of their axles . . .

Love Life
02-26-2015, 11:45 AM
Don't Canadians still use square tires? :bigsmyl2:

(The smiley means I am making a funny and not being a bigot, racist, illegal alien, or politician.)

Char-Gar
02-26-2015, 12:24 PM
The thing is, when they invented the ACTUAL wheel, it got a lot more publicity, so more folks got word and generally stopped experimenting with cubes on the ends of their axles . . .

Yes, that is true, absolutely true. With the explosion of new members (now 37,000 I think) on this board and the exodus of most of the original members, most of the memory has been lost and there is lots of wheel reinventing going on these days, because of that loss.

I was just trying to correct that memory loss, with some information about the subject that seems to have been lost. Lots of ground breaking things were done on this board "back in the day", that seems to now be lost or perhaps misplaced.

There is no reason why folks should not try and build a better mousetrap or reinvent the wheel. But, they should know about existing mousetraps and wheels before they begin. It shortens the learning curve and increases the probability of a genuine improvement.