Still getting leadding :(

[mallen]

Was hoping sizing the 20-1 tin lead mix would stop the leadding. I'm getting even deposits all over the barrel, land and grooves.

3 gn of imr 700x.
9mm bullets seem to weigh at 128 gn.
.357 dia sized.
45/45/10 lube, before and after sizing
95% range lead, 5% pewter (97 to 3 tin antimony)
fns 9mm fn

not sure where to go from here other than adding more pewter. else maybe not enough powder? no way to tell how fast im shooting.

[tomme boy]

Don't size them. Try that first. Then try lubing them 2 times without sizing them. I had to go to a 38 S&W expander to get mine to stop leading. It was swaging the bullet when seated.

[mallen]

First batch i tried without sizing. I can try lubing twice. What did the 38 expander do?

[azrednek]

Are you using the Lee Factory Crimp Die?? What kind of pistol?? Does it have a rough bore?? Have you slugged the bore to determine the exact bore size?? Are you getting the leading in the forcing cone area or nearer the muzzle??

[mallen]

bore size is .355. fns9

dillon square deal b progressive press. not sure how to determine bore smoothness.

[azrednek]

My ? about the barrel roughness was my believing you may have been shooting a war horse like a P-38. I had a P-38 I could not stop from leading and could only conclude it was a rough bore from previous use of corrosive ammo.

Don't throw in the towel. Some real die hard experience on this board that will walk you through.

[azrednek]

I'm assuming you determined the bore size by slugging the bore. If yes did you feel any tight or loose spots??

[mallen]

I'm assuming you determined the bore size by slugging the bore. If yes did you feel any tight or loose spots??
There seems to be a slight taper at the breach side. but once the bullet is in, the tension on the bullet going through is the same all the way through. (iv just been using bullets to slug with)

[williamwaco]

My Lyman states 700X starting loads with 124 to 125 grain bullets at 3.6gr. ( Note, that is starting load )

Not sure what your alloy is but If you are starting with 20/1 and adding 3% pewter, you have way too much tin.

If you are using range scraps with 5% -97% tin pewter, you also have way too much tin.

Tin -IS- needed for good fill out, but anything more than 2% tin is wasted.

You didn't mention what firearm you have but I am sure that unless it is 50 or 60 years old, the groove diameter is at least .356 or 357.

You didn't mention it but I suspect you are using a caliper to measure your slugs. That method is not accurate enough for what you need. Also, unless your bullet is at least .363 or so in diameter, you cannot get a good fill in the grooves unless you use really soft lead and use the "pound cast" method.

1) Dilute that tin rich alloy with 50% range scrap or clip on wheel weights or anything that will add some antimony.

2) I never tumble my 9mm bullets twice. ( Not saying don't do it, just I have not found it necessary. )

2) Size .357 or .358.

3) Try the 3.6 grain load of 700x.

By the way. If you are sizing AFTER lubing, you MUST lube again.

[mallen]

My Lyman states 700X starting loads with 124 to 125 grain bullets at 3.6gr. ( Note, that is starting load )

Not sure what your alloy is but If you are starting with 20/1 and adding 3% pewter, you have way too much tin.

If you are using range scraps with 5% -97% tin pewter, you also have way too much tin.

Tin -IS- needed for good fill out, but anything more than 2% tin is wasted.

You didn't mention what firearm you have but I am sure that unless it is 50 or 60 years old, the groove diameter is at least .356 or 357.

You didn't mention it but I suspect you are using a caliper to measure your slugs. That method is not accurate enough for what you need. Also, unless your bullet is at least .363 or so in diameter, you cannot get a good fill in the grooves unless you use really soft lead and use the "pound cast" method.

1) Dilute that tin rich alloy with 50% range scrap or clip on wheel weights or anything that will add some antimony.

2) I never tumble my 9mm bullets twice. ( Not saying don't do it, just I have not found it necessary. )

2) Size .357 or .358.

3) Try the 3.6 grain load of 700x.

By the way. If you are sizing AFTER lubing, you MUST lube again.

groove dia is .355

I forget what book i was using, but it stated the min load was 2.8 (for cast). the imr website states 2.9 to 3 depending on bullet.

im sizing at .357

Iv never went more than couple 10ths of a gn above minimum. sounds scary.

[Thompsoncustom]

Right after your completely done loading and round with the next step being to shoot it have you pulled the bullet and remeasured? I use a modified m die plug for my 9mm cast to keep them from being undersized by the case.

[mallen]

ill try to shoot and recover a bullet when i can.

could I just take it out of the case after loading it (not shooting it). or does it have to actually be shot?

[gpidaho]

Just remove a boolit out of a test case loaded as you would a live round and measure the slug with a mic. compare to an unseated boolit to see if your swaging it down on seating. I believe Tomme Boy and thompsoncustom have called it. most likely an under sized boolit going down the bore. GP

[Thompsoncustom]

What gpidaho said you don't actually shoot it but instead pull the bullet and see if the case is under sizing the bullet. If It is then you have found your issue and just need a new plug or expander.

[Wayne Smith]

You stated that you used a boolit to slug your barrel. Only use pure lead and measure with a micrometer.

[mallen]

well. wiggled the bullet out as gently as i could. seems seating the bullet made it a bit oblonged shaped. quite a bit. smaller than the slug at oen diameter, a .001 smaller at another diameter

[mallen]

ok. so, next question. I can get an m die. run all my cases in a single stage before loading, but then they would just get resized in the first stage of the press.

i would have to size them, then remove them and put them on a single stage to open the case neck, then, back in the progressive, directly to stage 2 (flair mouth and charge) in order to make it work.

don't think dillon makes an m die for the square deal b.

[Thompsoncustom]

I'm not sure how your progressive is setup but you shouldn't have any problems running a m die.

This is how mine is setup for your standard lead 9mm. Stage 1 in full length resizing die, stage 2 is the M die and stage 3 is the powder drop but you can swap these the only down side to running the powder first is the m die will pack the powder down but it still work fine. Stage 4 is seating and 5 is empty but with some 9mm I'll run a crimp die in 5.

I don't know what u use for an expander but you don't have to use a m die you can make a Lee or others work with the right plug.

The plug that came with my m die didn't work I ordered maybe 3 others of different sizes and cut one don't and tapered it to match the 9mm plug just at a bigger diameter.

[retread]

Right after your completely done loading and round with the next step being to shoot it have you pulled the bullet and remeasured? I use a modified m die plug for my 9mm cast to keep them from being undersized by the case.

+1 on that. Solved my problem by expanding the case neck. Prior to that the pulled boolit was under .355.

[mallen]

Problem is, I have a dillon square deal b. i do not think an M die exists for this press

[mallen]

will giving more case mouth flair help at all? i have just enough to fit the bullet.

[tomme boy]

Get an expander for a 38 S&W and be done with it. It will expand the barass a little more so it is not swagging the bullet down. Dies are set up to load jacketed not cast.

[Thompsoncustom]

No sorry flaring don't help more unless your shaving lead now.

I didn't realize the square b uses some odd ball die thread. Your probably looking at a custom die or using a different dillion expander.

Looking at the press it seems it expands at station 2 through the powder drop. If it just uses a universal expander than I don't think there's any fixing that but if it has different expanders for different cals maybe try the one for 38s&w.

Hopefully some square b owners can point u in the right direction.

[mallen]

don't think there is any. i would have to size the case, remove it to use a m die on another press, then replace it to finish

[retread]

I machined a larger thru powder expansion funnel for my 550 Dillon. I imagine the same can be done for a Square deal B,

[mallen]

I have not obtained such tools with those capabilities.

[Ford SD]

When I was shooting 1000 plus 45acp a month
Ya not really a lot for some of the people here

I found switching to separate seat at one station and crimp on the next station, produced better ammo

[220swiftfn]

Dillon SDB's use proprietary dies that don't even have threads...
They're also a four station press, so seat and crimp are already separate operations..

As someone else already mentioned, the powder funnel for the .38/.357 is what is needed here....


Dan

[xacex]

Powder coating was so much easier to get 9mm shooting good with no special expander plug, and good accuracy. Even my AR 9mm cooks them off at 1350FPS with no leading, and deadly accurate at 50 yards. 100 yards it becomes a game of lob that boolit, but you can still hit stuff. If you have an aversion to trying this the 38/357 expander is the way to go. I coat and shoot well over 2000 every 6 months now. Red dot is your friend in this case.

[sigep1764]

Just ran into this same problem with my sdb. You cannot use a different expander, they are all different lengths in the body. This means the 38 is too short, even when the die mount is adjusted all the way down, to put a flare on the case or operate the powder throw. The solution so far is lathesmith. This member is currently making me a custom powder through expander or the dillon sdb with the plug profile of the 38 expander up sized to .357 diameter. It should expand the case .30 down from the case mouth. I will post again once I receive the plug hopefully this week.

[mallen]

Just to be sure, does it make any difference that i twisted the bullet out with pliers, not a bullet puller? just to be sure.

[mallen]

Just ran into this same problem with my sdb. You cannot use a different expander, they are all different lengths in the body. This means the 38 is too short, even when the die mount is adjusted all the way down, to put a flare on the case or operate the powder throw. The solution so far is lathesmith. This member is currently making me a custom powder through expander or the dillon sdb with the plug profile of the 38 expander up sized to .357 diameter. It should expand the case .30 down from the case mouth. I will post again once I receive the plug hopefully this week.

lathesmith be the username?
my bullets are .357. is what your getting the same size that i need? thanks

[sigep1764]

I size mine to 358. The 357 size should give me enough neck tension to securely hold the boolit without sizing it down. I haven't received mine back yet, should be here this week or early next.

[62chevy]

Just to be sure, does it make any difference that i twisted the bullet out with pliers, not a bullet puller? just to be sure.

Not sure about the pliers. What I did was buy a Kinetic bullet puller at Walmart for 18.97. Works like a champ for checking boolits size, mistakes and range finds. Yup mostly 22s but have found more than a few 9mm that failed to fire.

[JeffG]

Get ahold of Buckshot on the forum, he makes custom powder through expanders for Dillon and Lyman M dies. I just got a custom expander for an M die on 7.62x54mm. It's beautiful.

[kungfustyle]

Powder coating was so much easier to get 9mm shooting good with no special expander plug, and good accuracy. Even my AR 9mm cooks them off at 1350FPS with no leading, and deadly accurate at 50 yards. 100 yards it becomes a game of lob that boolit, but you can still hit stuff. If you have an aversion to trying this the 38/357 expander is the way to go. I coat and shoot well over 2000 every 6 months now. Red dot is your friend in this case.

+1 to Powder coating.... should take care of it.

[Love Life]

Get an expander for a 38 S&W and be done with it. It will expand the barass a little more so it is not swagging the bullet down. Dies are set up to load jacketed not cast.


This^^^.

[Wayne Smith]

Just to be sure, does it make any difference that i twisted the bullet out with pliers, not a bullet puller? just to be sure.

Yes, it matters. Pliers distort the boolit. Almost inevitably.

[Larry Gibson]

If you have any LLA left lube the bullets with that straight as per the instructions. Not all home made lube are equal. The only thing potentially wrong with what you're doing is the lube that would cause leading like that.

Larry Gibson

[groundsclown]

Was hoping sizing the 20-1 tin lead mix would stop the leadding. I'm getting even deposits all over the barrel, land and grooves.
3 gn of imr 700x.
9mm bullets seem to weigh at 128 gn.
.357 dia sized.
45/45/10 lube, before and after sizing
95% range lead, 5% pewter (97 to 3 tin antimony)
fns 9mm fn


Just throwing something else out there. Have you tried increasing your charge?
I ask because, 3gr seems very light. My lyman book shows a 124gr - 3.5 to 3.9
and a 125gr - 3.6 to 4.0 for 700x.

I say this because I had horrible leading in 2 rugers, the worse a redhawk in 44mag. Did all kinds of crazy voodoo to get it right...even tried fire lapping. Soon as I increased the charge to a med level, leading disappeared. I simply wasn't getting a good seal using plain ol WW alloy.
My leading was all within the first 3-4" of the rifling though.

Just an idea before buying M dies, new sizers, changing alloy or switching lubes.

[guncheese]

Don't size them. I had to go to a 38 S&W expander to get mine to stop leading. It was swaging the bullet when seated.

ding ding ding
i see a winner!
the 38 s&w expander really helps

[mallen]

Just throwing something else out there. Have you tried increasing your charge?
I ask because, 3gr seems very light. My lyman book shows a 124gr - 3.5 to 3.9
and a 125gr - 3.6 to 4.0 for 700x.

I say this because I had horrible leading in 2 rugers, the worse a redhawk in 44mag. Did all kinds of crazy voodoo to get it right...even tried fire lapping. Soon as I increased the charge to a med level, leading disappeared. I simply wasn't getting a good seal using plain ol WW alloy.
My leading was all within the first 3-4" of the rifling though.

Just an idea before buying M dies, new sizers, changing alloy or switching lubes.

iv been wanting to try that when i get some more primers. i should be around 900 fps. 3.4gn should get me to 1000 fps. that might help. reminds me. isnt there a chart here somewhere to show you where you get deposits due to different reasons? I am getting random spots evenly all over the whole bore.

[mallen]

ding ding ding
i see a winner!
the 38 s&w expander really helps

couldn't I just adjust the expander a bit more to get more of a flair?

[tomme boy]

No, it is not the flare. It is the size of the expander. The 38 S&W is a lot shorter than the 38 Spec. and it is made for 0.357" diameter bullets. The cases are almost the same length so there is no custom fitting. Just drop it in. Call Dillion and tell them what you are trying to do. 9mm Luger has a very steep learning curve. It is one of the hardest pistol rounds to make shoot good.

[mallen]

No, it is not the flare. It is the size of the expander. The 38 S&W is a lot shorter than the 38 Spec. and it is made for 0.357" diameter bullets. The cases are almost the same length so there is no custom fitting. Just drop it in. Call Dillion and tell them what you are trying to do. 9mm Luger has a very steep learning curve. It is one of the hardest pistol rounds to make shoot good.

forgive my ignorance, but i don't see how it would work much different. even if the expander is a couple thousands wider, it is still only flaring the mouth of the case, the swagging is happening below the mouth

or am i thinking wrong?

[Newboy]

You are thinking wrong.
The expander does two things. The top portion bells the case. The bottom straight portion expands the case to a uniform diameter. With a 9mm, it expands to maybe .352, which squeezes the soft slug to a smaller diameter when it is seated.

[mallen]

ok. i guess iv never really watched the case go all the way up into the dies. it does go quite a ways into the case. this opens up many more questions for me.

so, what is the difference between this and a m die. i would assume and m die is just, longer?

is the 38 s&w die long enough?

[mallen]

http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/25279/catid/34

number "D" is the one im lookin fer?

Any way of testing this, before buying? im worried an expanded case might not like my wifes shield. non sized cases it sure hated.

[sigep1764]

So the "D" expander will not work in an SDB set up for 9mm. It is too short to operate the powder drop for the 9mm setup. I tried it a week ago at the cost of $30 shipped from dillon. The entire length of the funnel is about an inch shorter than the 9mm funnels length. And Dillon does not offer dies for 38 S&W, just 38 special for the SDB. I just got my new funnel today from lathesmith (Chris), and it is just what the doctor ordered. Perfect copy of the 9mm funnel with the 38 special expander plug sized at 357. Very reasonable price as well. And it works!

[sigep1764]

I'm sorry, there was a guy on this forum who did make a 38 funnel work in an SDB, but with a lot of work using pvc pipe.

[mallen]

So the "D" expander will not work in an SDB set up for 9mm. It is too short to operate the powder drop for the 9mm setup. I tried it a week ago at the cost of $30 shipped from dillon. The entire length of the funnel is about an inch shorter than the 9mm funnels length. And Dillon does not offer dies for 38 S&W, just 38 special for the SDB. I just got my new funnel today from lathesmith (Chris), and it is just what the doctor ordered. Perfect copy of the 9mm funnel with the 38 special expander plug sized at 357. Very reasonable price as well. And it works!

Thanks for the info. I sent an email to both people reccomended for custom dies. Neither responded.

[gpidaho]

While Dillon makes very fine reloading equipment, as you are finding out the square deal B is a press best used with jacketed bullets not our Boolits. GP

[tomme boy]

Get a hold of Buckshot and send him your expander and tell him what you need. If dillion does not offer the 38S&W then this is going to be your easiest way. Might be cheaper too.

[sigep1764]

There are many positives to the press as well as drawbacks. I like the short throw on the handle, it is compact, it autoindexes, and it does every caliber I currently need. However, it may not do calibers I might need in the future, the dies are dillon-made only, and you have to change powder hoppers if yo u change calibers. Another upside though, I can have two sdb's for life for the price of one 650 and that warranty! Love it.

[Char-Gar]

I would want to know what kind of pistol he is shooting and the age of the weapon.

[mallen]

9mm fns. a few k rounds through it.

[mallen]

Get a hold of Buckshot and send him your expander and tell him what you need. If dillion does not offer the 38S&W then this is going to be your easiest way. Might be cheaper too.

he has not returned my email yet.

[Char-Gar]

9mm fns. a few k rounds through it.

What is an fns? Does it have a name?

[mallen]

FN Fns-9

[bgokk]

Check this link for fns http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/products-capabilities/handguns/general/product/263/295/263/5/_/fnsTM-9.html

[Larry Gibson]

Mallen

I've loaded a few thousand rounds of 9mm on my Dillon SDB w/o any leading problems. I doubt the leading is being caused by the Dillon SDB dies.

As I said before; nothing in you load or loading suggests such leading except a bad lube. I suggest you try a simple coat of straight LLA as per the Lee directions. Could be as simple as that.

Larry Gibson

[mallen]

Mallen

I've loaded a few thousand rounds of 9mm on my Dillon SDB w/o any leading problems. I doubt the leading is being caused by the Dillon SDB dies.

As I said before; nothing in you load or loading suggests such leading except a bad lube. I suggest you try a simple coat of straight LLA as per the Lee directions. Could be as simple as that.

Larry Gibson
What type of alloy do you use?

[mallen]

I called dillon, they said i should be at .356 instead of .357. then said



1. measure outside of case mouth edge to edge
2. meausre the same a quarter inch down
3. difference should be 15 to 20 thousands.

if not, adjust the case mouth expander powder funnel die down. then said a 38 die would go too deep into the case.


also set crimp to 377

cant hurt to try.

[Larry Gibson]

I use a variety of alloys and have for years. COWWs +2% tin cut 30% with lead. Range lead at 3/1 with lead + 2% tin. Have used 20-1 & 16-1 along with old COWW, #2 alloy and even linotype. Found the harder alloys weren't needed. Used to size .356, lubed with Lyman's old graphite and then Javelina. Never had any accuracy or leading problems in multiple handguns and sub guns going back to '70. Then along came the internet and the experts said .358 or poor accuracy and leading would result. Tried that and nothing changed. I size. 357 because I use the same bullets in .38 SPL cowboy loads. Still have the .356 sizers and no qualms using it. I use BAC lube for handgun bullets these days.

Larry Gibson

Might add I started loading 9mm with a standard RCBS die set back in '70. In '86 I used the same dies on a Dillon 550B and then in '92 started loading 9mm on the Dillon SDB. The Dillon SDB dies stay set up for the Lee 120 TC bullet now. I also use Lee's FCD 9mm set on my single stage teaching others how to reload and when reloading other 9mm rounds for testing. My original RCBS dies are used to load .38 ACPs with the Lee 120 TC bullet for my Spanish Destroyer Carbine.

[mallen]

I lowered the die to open the case mouth more. i got less swagging. rounds came out about .356. haven't shot them yet. out of primers

[just_shooter]

I have the same problem so purchased Lyman M Die. I reload 9mm and decided to buy 9mm one. Yesterday try it but the expansion is not enough (at least for my soft alloy). Can I buy now only expanding tip for 38s&w or have to buy entire die? Couldn't find that on Lyman's website.

[Thompsoncustom]

The plugs for the lyman M die can be purchased from lyman if you call them there run somewhere between 4 and 6 bucks each.

[44man]

Nine is a pretty high pressure round, boolit is way too soft.

[just_shooter]

The boolit is with Brinell hardness 13-14 and I shoot it with 850 f/s. I guess that's not too soft?

[tomme boy]

In a tapered case it is. That is why everyone is telling you to use the 38 S&W expander as it is a straight wall case and it it go a little farther down in the case of the 9mm than the standard expander. Plus it is a little larger in diameter than the 9mm one so it works perfect for cast bullets in the 9mm.

[mallen]

In a tapered case it is. That is why everyone is telling you to use the 38 S&W expander as it is a straight wall case and it it go a little farther down in the case of the 9mm than the standard expander. Plus it is a little larger in diameter than the 9mm one so it works perfect for cast bullets in the 9mm.


what question was that in response to?

I can get a custom die for the same price as a dillon die, so might as well get one i don't have to shove a piece of pvc pipe into my press with.

[tomme boy]

Just shooters post

[mallen]

im confused why a taper crimp has anything to do with hardness

[tomme boy]

The whole round it tapered. Larger at the base than at the mouth.

[sigep1764]

Please keep in mind if you buy the 38 special expander you will have to buy the appropriate hopper if you are using the Square Deal B. It will not work with the 9mm hopper. And Dillon does not offer a 38 S&W expander for the Square Deal B or any dies for this round whatsoever for the SDB.

[mallen]

will be having a custom die mae for it.

[mallen]

if adjusting the expander die alone does not work, and i indeed do require custom die, then ill be trying to get ahold of someone higher up in dillon and suggest they make cast bullet dies for this thing.

[leeggen]

Mallen just wondering how long have you owned and shot the 9mm??? With the 9 it is a very diffrent work up to shoot and get little to no leading. If you will just backup to the very start and follow the threads as to what to do I bet you will be shooting within the 3rd trial run. Just don't over think this. Ones that have already done our homework for us so we don't have too. My 40S&W and the 9mm have been great from the start, I just followed what I was told in all the threads envolved with such. Boolit, lube, powder, and loading.
CD