9mm case size seating numbers not adding up need a litle direction

[MR40]

Hello all,

I am new to reloading and may be over thinking this but today I had a squib on my 3rd round and it made me go back through and rethink and review the loads I just finished.

I was feeling good after the first 2 shots and then...

I am using the following:

Powder: IMR 700-X
Case/brass: once used Armscor policed by me at range
Projectile: IBEJIHeads 9mm 115gr LRN coated Advertised at .356 (Mic @ 0.3545 dia.)
Primer: Winchester small pistol
C.O.L.: 1.100 +/- .002

Load date from IMR shows 3.3 to 3.7 for 115gr LRN (non coated) c.o.l. 1.100

I loaded up
(15) at 3.2gr - 3.3gr
(15) at 3.4 gr +/-
(10) at 3.6 gr +/-

I case checked them in the barrel of my SW39 and they go in easy and stick a little coming out about half the time.

I mic them and they show .3765 dia.

The factory Armscor 124gr FMJ mic at 0.375 and slide in and out with no binding at all.

I mic the case wall at .012, so 2 times that is .024 plus the .3545 projectile gives me .3785, when crimped though they are .3765 dia.

I am not a fan of more crimping on the case to shrink the diameter because that removes the anvil seat edge of the case, but open for options.

1st picture shows what I am working with, now I am trying to figure out if the squib was a short sighted on my part with the load, but I was pretty much checking every load like crazy because of being new to the process. I am wondering about a slight stick issue, loads need a jiggle or tap 1/3 time on the barrel check, they are loose, but slight stick some times like 1 out of 4 checks with same cartridge.

With the squib I thought the load sounded right and the case ejected, but the feel was wrong and no paper whole at 5 yards, I was loading up one at a time with the mag and well my first 2 shots made me feel great and the third made me feel like a fool and well now I am going back over all my work with nothing but questions.

Also took a picture of the factory next to the reload, the reload has a roller belling see 2nd pic below.

Looking for suggestions before I end up with a second squib anyone got an idea what I am doing possible wrong, also I am using a Dillion 550 with Dillion dies, the machine is 25 years old but barely used, I order the mech powder lever, my unit uses the springs and waiting on the low primer alarm, back ordered from Dillion.


http://www.artisticrail.com/tbzper/load01.jpg
Materials being used above

Picture below, left cartridge is 124gr Armscor factory load with FMJ

Right cartridge is my load with 115gr LRN coated, same Armscor brass case once fired

See the roller bearing bevel on the reload, light shines through in middle?

http://www.artisticrail.com/tbzper/case.jpg

Any and all suggestions are welcomed thank you Tom

[mozeppa]

its called "wasp waist" this is common and nothing bad about it... i make thousands of 9mm ...they all look like that

a "squib" means a bullet stuck midway in the barrel.
most common cause= no powder in the case and the pop you hear is only the primer powering the bullet into the barrel a couple inches.
or the powder load wasn't much or at least a full throw of powder.

had a squib recently with a winchester factory load.... scary stuff!
sounded weak ...NOT like the previous ones!

do you seat AND crimp in one operation?
or do you seat the bullet THEN crimp in a separate operation?....(this way is better)

since the shell case is a tapered one...(not straight walled like .380---.40---.45 acp) losing a little of what you call
"anvil seat edge of the case."

isn't super critical...(maybe .001 to .002)
and what ever would be left out of the .024 thickness that you mic'd at the case mouth would be enough to seat the shell case into the chamber...providing that the shell case is of proper length to start with.

very few people size their pistol case lengths.

[sigep1764]

Yup I load on a Dillon sdb and it does the same thing when resizing the case. No big deal. And as long as the cases eject, you should be good. Had my first squib round 2 weeks ago. First one in 10000 rounds. The next round would not chamber, so I broke the pistol down and found the squib. Was very careful shooting the next 300 rounds in that box of reloads. I separate the rounds by when I loaded them.

[220swiftfn]

Well, this is your first lesson in loading 101..... Look in the case for a powder charge before you seat the projectile. Really easy with the 550B, that hole in the center of the die plate is the right size for a Maglite "solitaire", just put an o-ring on it to keep it from dropping through. As others have mentioned, the "wasp waist" is absolutely normal, and when you go to crimp, you're looking to remove the belling from the powder die, plus a little bit more just to ease the transition of the case into the chamber (if you're mouth measurement is a couple thou under the major body diameter, you are good there.) A couple things that might be causing your sticky chambering... You might be a hair too long on the OAL, the crimp might not be quite enough, or you might need to give a little more bell on the powder die (if it's not enough, you'll shave the bullet and that will stop the round from chambering completely.)

Also, IMR 700x isn't known for being "pleasant" for metering in a measure, so get a good feel for what the charge should look like in the case (when I run difficult metering powders, I keep a case with a scale weighed charge on the bench as a reference.)


Dan

[MR40]

its called "wasp waist" this is common and nothing bad about it... i make thousands of 9mm ...they all look like that

a "squib" means a bullet stuck midway in the barrel.
most common cause= no powder in the case and the pop you hear is only the primer powering the bullet into the barrel a couple inches.
or the powder load wasn't much or at least a full throw of powder.

had a squib recently with a winchester factory load.... scary stuff!
sounded weak ...NOT like the previous ones!

do you seat AND crimp in one operation?
or do you seat the bullet THEN crimp in a separate operation?....(this way is better)

since the shell case is a tapered one...(not straight walled like .380---.40---.45 acp) losing a little of what you call
"anvil seat edge of the case."

isn't super critical...(maybe .001 to .002)
and what ever would be left out of the .024 thickness that you mic'd at the case mouth would be enough to seat the shell case into the chamber...providing that the shell case is of proper length to start with.

very few people size their pistol case lengths.

First thanks for the reply,

I am using a Dillion 550 I got for free, so I can't complain, Brother in law stopped loading 15 years ago and he gave it to me, just had to buy dies and a few other things.

The Dillion dies, set bullet depth in step 3 and then factory crimp in die 4, 4 step manual progressive.

In seating, the IMR web list 1.100 for O.A. L., but with my dry seating with these bullets I am more like 1.0925 +/-, if I hit 1.0935, i start getting rotation hangs or 1 out of 4 stick and needs a shake to release.

So that is why I started with the 3.2 gr, seating depth concern being more closed in.

After reading more and more on the net last night found this link... sure wish I had found this before...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=481170

The Saami sepc says 1.000 - 1.169 for C.O.L., which made me feel the reduction to 1.092+/- for my lads was fine, but made me think to start a grain lower

For reasons of not knowing if I might have an issue with not spotting the powder loads from the balance of the loads, I measured out a few empty cases, with primer & bullet on the scale and then used plus 2.5 grains and check that the parts did not tip the scale, 7 did not 1 did, case heavy not sure why. But I used that to then check all the loads to make sure they pushed the scale the other way. They all did, so I am thinking I am good to go back to the range with these.

I did re-check them in the barrel, all slid in and out without issue except 1 which I set on the side.

Will post late when I return from the range.

[MR40]

Well, this is your first lesson in loading 101..... Look in the case for a powder charge before you seat the projectile. Really easy with the 550B, that hole in the center of the die plate is the right size for a Maglite "solitaire", just put an o-ring on it to keep it from dropping through. As others have mentioned, the "wasp waist" is absolutely normal, and when you go to crimp, you're looking to remove the belling from the powder die, plus a little bit more just to ease the transition of the case into the chamber (if you're mouth measurement is a couple thou under the major body diameter, you are good there.) A couple things that might be causing your sticky chambering... You might be a hair too long on the OAL, the crimp might not be quite enough, or you might need to give a little more bell on the powder die (if it's not enough, you'll shave the bullet and that will stop the round from chambering completely.)

Also, IMR 700x isn't known for being "pleasant" for metering in a measure, so get a good feel for what the charge should look like in the case (when I run difficult metering powders, I keep a case with a scale weighed charge on the bench as a reference.)


Dan

First thanks for the reply Dan,

Being new to this forum is nice to get replies when searching for issues like this.

The C.O.L. was an issue I was pondering because I do need to set the bullet deeper than the powder MTG IMR says to, but they didn't list a specific bullet, so I am not sure if their listing for the 115gr LRN is the same length as what I am using, longer or shorter, I don't have a reference to go by.

Glad you pointed out the shaving issue, I am having to push my bell larger than I like because if I don't I get that little binding shave and figured that was an issue.

The powder choice was one I figured was going to be an issue with metering, but from my choices I was kinda put in a corner for finding load data, this was the one with the most information I could find.

I have a lb of Alliant Power Pistol, but their website only lists 115gr Speer GDHP and when I called them, they didn't have a suggestion for the bullet I am using and sent me back to the Bullet manufacture, the bullet mfg gave me some info, but they didn't have it for the powders I have so I am rotating in a circle till I can get more information. Not wanting to shoot in the dark. And my lyman cast bullet book didn't have 700-x or power pistol in it for 9mm 115gr LRN, waiting on the 2 books to arrive next week.

Thaks for the information - Tom

[MR40]

Yup I load on a Dillon sdb and it does the same thing when resizing the case. No big deal. And as long as the cases eject, you should be good. Had my first squib round 2 weeks ago. First one in 10000 rounds. The next round would not chamber, so I broke the pistol down and found the squib. Was very careful shooting the next 300 rounds in that box of reloads. I separate the rounds by when I loaded them.

Sigep1974 sorta the same thing,

I was loading 1 cartridge per mag, I took 15 loads figure I would do the first 4 in singles, then the next 6 in doubles and the last 5 in 1 mag.

The first shot went off without a hitch, hit the paper were I was aiming and locked the slide open, felt light.

Next mag with single load, the same thing, hit the paper and locked the slide open

Next mag with single load, sounded funny, case ejected, no hole in paper???????

broke gun down and sure enough blocked barrel, put my head down in shame packed up and googled how to remove a squib.

Pulled out a punch rod, drilled a concave seat, set it in the hole on my anvil, patch wrapped the punch rod, sprayed a little cleaning oil inside, drilled out a plastic cleaning seat from a spare cleaning kit, slid over the rod to the anvil surface, slide the barrel over the wrapped rod till it stopped and then 2 medium hits with the rubber mallet and the squib was out. Barrel dropped down to the rubber cleaning seat and stopped just like I planned it, not that I want to do this ever again......

Cleaned the barrel and inspected it a whole bunch and are now off to the range to press my luck again after preforming all my triple checks.

Thanks for the reply's - Tom and if you have other helpful info please post, thanks again.

[MR40]

Hello All,

Back from the range and all the rounds fired down range and I had no other issues with the rounds.

The 3.4gr load with the 1.0925 col worked nice, no real bark and the loads stayed within 2" at 7yards.

The 3.6gr loads worked nice also about the same group barked a little but not even close to the bark i get with the factory loads of 124gr FMJ from Armscor.

The 3.2gr loads were like shooting my .22cal buckmark, no kick and cycled the slide every time, but groups were in the 4plus range.

The barrel was leading a bit, I think I am going to back off on the crimp a little and see if taking the COL down a little to 1.090 or less with 3.4gr, if they dry fit the chamber nice I am going to load about 20 and see how they do.

Is anyone using Power Pistol powder with LRN either 115gr or 125gr looking to work on this powder because a bit easier to get local.

If you are can you send me in the right direction for recipes either what book or website you are using.

Thanks - Tom

[mozeppa]

The barrel was leading a bit, I think I am going to back off on the crimp a little and see if taking the COL down a little to 1.090 or less with 3.4gr, if they dry fit the chamber nice I am going to load about 20 and see how they do.


Thanks - Tom
with lead boolits...fit is king!

your C.O.L. isn't causing leading in the barrel...neither is the powder.
have you slugged your barrel?

do this ...measure the slug ...i'll bet you are using cast boolits that need to be 1 to 2 thousandths fatter.
are you using store bought pre-cast boolits?

its easier to cast a boolit .002 too big and re-size it down to what you really need than try to grow lead on the sides!:mrgreen:

[Scharfschuetze]

Perhaps I missed it, but what pistol model are you shooting your 9mm ammo through? I ask as the rifling type may suggest that you size a bit larger than what your current boolits are to preclude the leading you suffer.

As noted above; fit is king and I've found .358" to work best for accuracy and with no leading in my 9mm pistols.

[MR40]

Perhaps I missed it, but what pistol model are you shooting your 9mm ammo through? I ask as the rifling type may suggest that you size a bit larger than what your current boolits are to preclude the leading you suffer.

As noted above; fit is king and I've found .358" to work best for accuracy and with no leading in my 9mm pistols.

Pistol is a S&W model 39-2

[Scharfschuetze]

In the mid 70s I used a Model 39 for a short while in my LE career and found it to be fairly accurate and reliable. Back then I sized my RCBS 115 grain TC boolits (cast from wheel weights) for it at .356" with good results and they compared favorably in accuracy to the issue "HiVel" brand ammo. While I didn't have a chronograph back then, I always assumed that they were over 1,100 fps at the muzzle using Unique powder.

I kind of wish that I still had that S&W, but a deputy sheriff talked me out of it.

I hope that you can solve your instability issue with the pistol.

[220swiftfn]

Just as an aside for future reference, you can't tell if a powder charge is light, heavy, or even missing by weighing the loaded round. Weight variances of the components themselves are more than enough to mask the powder weight. Getting in the habit of putting eyes on the charge will greatly reduce the chances of a squib, a double charge (esp. important with a manual index progressive), or a "bridged" charge. That last one is when part of the powder charge gets hung up on the way into the case, but gets added to the next powder drop (so you're loading for 5 gr, but in the string there's a load that has 3, and one that has 7..... Bad juju....)


Dan

[220swiftfn]

Well, Hornady 7th has data for lead 124gr with Power Pistol, starting with 4.3gr for 900fps and a max load of 5.7gr for 1100fps. They don't have a lead load listed for 115, but I'm pretty sure that they had it in the 5th ed. I'll check tomorrow......


Dan

[MR40]

In the mid 70s I used a Model 39 for a short while in my LE career and found it to be fairly accurate and reliable. Back then I sized my RCBS 115 grain TC boolits (cast from wheel weights) for it at .356" with good results and they compared favorably in accuracy to the issue "HiVel" brand ammo. While I didn't have a chronograph back then, I always assumed that they were over 1,100 fps at the muzzle using Unique powder.

I kind of wish that I still had that S&W, but a deputy sheriff talked me out of it.

I hope that you can solve your instability issue with the pistol.

Love the 39, have had it since 1987 when my brother had his second child, he new I liked it, needed some cash and it was done.

Sorry to hear the deputy duped you,

The only real thing I have an issue with is the front sight being a fixed rib machined right on the slide. Now 24 plus years later and sporting bifocals it is a bit harder to see the SS rib.

Everyone at the range that see's it can't believe I can print with it at 20 yards, but you know the younger minds need gadets...

[MR40]

Just as an aside for future reference, you can't tell if a powder charge is light, heavy, or even missing by weighing the loaded round. Weight variances of the components themselves are more than enough to mask the powder weight. Getting in the habit of putting eyes on the charge will greatly reduce the chances of a squib, a double charge (esp. important with a manual index progressive), or a "bridged" charge. That last one is when part of the powder charge gets hung up on the way into the case, but gets added to the next powder drop (so you're loading for 5 gr, but in the string there's a load that has 3, and one that has 7..... Bad juju....)


Dan

I figured I was taking a chance seeing the vast difference in cases being more than the load itself. But I was determined to figure out if I just missed the one. Stupid is what stupid does...

But except the one case I did see at least a 2 grain difference, so that is why I did the 2 grain over high average raw weight.

I have been reading the Dillions work best with the mechanical powder reset, I ordered one, but back ordered it, I am going to add the flash light in the center hole to get a good look in the future. Like posted above, If I had the extra cash a 650 with the powder check would be in the cards just for that reason, but being alert is best.

Thanks,

Also thanks for the note on the Hornady 7th and checking the 5th. I am in quest of some manuals currently just have the 49th by Lyman.