Lee 230gr 30cal User's input needed.

[Thompsoncustom]

I've been reading past threads on the forum lately regarding the lee 230gr black out boolits and it seems most if not all people have issues with this boolit. The most common problem I see is the bullet key holing and lack of accuracy.

Anyone think they have tracked down the issue with this bullet? I see a few people mention that you need to be careful casting as the bullet is prone to bending. I was going through a older manual of mine and see that in "modern reloading" they have cast data for the 308w at 225gr's up to 2200fps with a handful of different powders so it looks like it's doable and maybe that the Lee design is the problems.

Just want your guys thoughts on why this bullet fails and maybe ways to improve it.

[Moonie]

There are several things about that boolit that are usually contrary to accurate cast boolits. The boat tail and the long unsupported nose are 2 of them. You can put gas checks on them, others have reported increases in accuracy when gas checks are applied to the boat tail. I gave up on the boolit and went with a custom mold in the same general weight with a plain base.

[Thompsoncustom]

Ya most people I talk to have "moved on" to a different design.

If I had the tools I might remove the boattail and lube grooves and see if it runs better that way, powder coated of course.

[Ricochet]

There's just not enough support in my .30 bores. The long bore rider section is .298" diameter on mine, and the short section between the front band and the boat tail is all that's firmly jammed into the grooves. Not enough to keep the boolit from tilting. It's not a rifling twist problem, I think. I've run it through twist rate calculators on several sites, and between the low teens and upper 2K FPS it should theoretically stabilize in a 10.5" twist. But it's not a very practical design. It sure is pretty, though! It might be a good shooter if cast out of something harder like zinc alloy.

[Ricochet]

Somebody may want to try lapping it out so the bore rider part jams tightly in the lands.

[Boolseye]

Lee says it's "designed for fast twist barrels." read 300 AAC. I have found it to be OK out of my
blackout using factory data (11 grains of 296). No keyholes, no flyers, with or without GC.
The problem is getting it to cycle...for that, I've been told, you need a can.

[ak_milsurp]

H110 & 1630 are the powders the AR Blackout. Crowd is using here in Alaska

[ak_milsurp]

1630 is quieter through a can

[Thompsoncustom]

Somebody may want to try lapping it out so the bore rider part jams tightly in the lands.

Great suggestion Sir I think if i can't get this thing to shoot straights that's where i'll start. It is a very good looking bullet but I think they would have been better served by removing the boat tail and putting a normal gas check groove on there so it runs better for sub and super sonic velocity's might also help if there was more bearing surface for the rifling to grab.

I also don't think it's a twist rate problem all those calculator's say the bullet is more than fine in 1:10 at lower velocity's.

[Dave18]

the noe 247g seems to build a little better back pressure than the lee(seems to cycle it with out a can) where as the lee seems to squirt out the barrel easier and you get less pressure on the same charge,

as to twist, even with 1-8 and 1-7 barrels I have seen keyholes, especially with round nose bullets, yet the lee and noe never keyholed for me,(so I personally think the 1-10 will not work) and for right now, have been running the lee over the noe, simply tumblelubing and throwing them down range, no gas check or lubrisizer BS, for me inside of 150yds, they run minute of beer can, I did put them on paper at 100yds and got around 2.5 -3 moa on them, which for what Im doing, (plinking and ringing steel) Im plenty happy ) since I remember the days of the whisper and working paper thin necks, which is why I love the black out so much, you can be quite sloppy on things, the friggin thing just shoots (for me that is) on a so very little bit of 1680 , even has its own powder measure that's set for the 1680 and it stays in the box with the blackout stuff,

I do think there is a variance of bore diameters out there (in tenths), mine was one of the first runs from a couple places and they shot great, (all are stainless too) yet others I know later on, same brand ect, seem looser when shot with the same load as mine,

just ramblings from what I found out a few yrs back,

right now Im caught up in the corperate America squeeze the F#%#^k out of the maintenance/production worker syndrome right now, like the 7 day a week, BS, with outsourced workers who create really dangerous working situations and management without a clue, (ever work where, the outsource people don't have to follow company rules, but if you are a company employee you do, this is safety and all),
an example of the stupidity, was last winter our outsourced plowing people, pushed snow up to every door(what ever happened to dragging the snow off the ramps-they did have bobcats,,), around our plants, you could not open doors ect, till you hand shoveled things out, and then plowed peoples cars in with 3 ft high mounds for 100yd lengths, amazing stupidity,and many fighting mad employees, ,
glad I only have a few more yrs to go for grabbing the retirement and running out the door, before they run the place in the ground or burn it down, or blow it up, or both:? and the only reason Im on right now, went in early so I could get out early, maybe even get the grass cut today, will probably fall asleep on the mower though,

can hardly wait to get out of the Obamanated rat race, and back to having a life,

[Moonie]

Has more to do with gas volume than pressure, H110/W296 is a great powder for super sonic loads but for subs or heavy weights AA1680 and RL-7 are better.

[KYCaster]

Ummmmm............................

Sorry for the thread hi-jack, but..............did we just have a Ricochet sighting?

Jerry

[Thompsoncustom]

Something else I thought I'd add measuring my cast boolits the bore riding section comes in at .297 which seems on the small size and probably not helping center the boolit at all I'll have to see if you can just add enough coats of PC to bump it up enough so it lightly engages the rifling.

[Ricochet]

Ummmmm............................

Sorry for the thread hi-jack, but..............did we just have a Ricochet sighting?

Jerry
I'm afraid so. :mrgreen:

[Ricochet]

As the paper patching bug is presently chewing on me, I intend when I get a round tuit to patch some of these lovelies to a suitable diameter to fire through one or more of my Fat Thirty rifles, or even an 8mm perhaps. That would take out the issues of tipping and lack of concentricity due to insufficient bearing surface supporting it in the bore. Some of y'all may want to beat me to trying this, it'll likely be a while before I locate said tuit.

[runfiverun]

I don't think it has enough girth to be a suitable core for patching an 8mm.
mine just barely sizes that base before the boat tail to 310.
you'd need about 314 to make a decent core for patching.

the lee boolit does need a fast twist to stabilize it, it also needs to have a very crisp base.
I have been shooting it with 3.5 grs of 700-x recently.
the biggest issue I have had was vertical stringing when I slowed the ignition down a bit too much by using a pistol primer.

[leftiye]

Ummmmm............................

Sorry for the thread hi-jack, but..............did we just have a Ricochet sighting?

Jerry

Sho did! Waay cool to hear frum ya Ric! P.S. I like your ZZ Top look.

[Ricochet]

Thanks, leftiye!

I think the Fat Thirties like the Mosins and Lee-Enfields are better candidates for shooting patched TL-310-230s. Mosins have something close to a 1:9.5" twist as well.

[Boolseye]

I think the Fat Thirties like the Mosins and Lee-Enfields are better candidates for shooting patched TL-310-230s. Mosins have something close to a 1:9.5" twist as well.

I just may have to try that. Think I even have a tuit kicking around...

[Ricochet]

Let us know how it goes, Boolseye.

[303Guy]

I'm looking for a tuit. A round one will do nicely.:mrgreen:

I've shot 265gr (paper patched) boolit out my Brit and those went nose first. Being smooth sided there would be maximum mas at the OD and length would be minimum but even so, they are long.

Is there any possibility of the boolits in question stripping the rifling before they are spinning fast enough? If the driving surface is too small for the weight of boolit could this happen? Or is there too much muzzle yaw due to a misaligned boolit in the bore?

And it's good to see Ricochet back!:drinks:

[Ricochet]

There are a bunch of things wrong with this boolit, but it sure is pretty! Like a number of other things in life that we fall for. :mrgreen:

[Boolseye]

Let us know how it goes, Boolseye.
Will do! I have a M/N m38 with a 314" groove diameter, and that Lee BLK boolit.
Will have to research PPing a bit, never done it.

[1johnlb]

The Lee 230 shoots well in my ar pistol, just won't cycle. Might need to go to a lighter buffer than the pistol weight. I have also shot that 230 in several of my 30 cals and the ones it shot well in was my Swiss, my tight throat k31 and my G1911 long barrel. They shot best at sub sonic velocities, 7grs of tightgroup. The k31 will put 40 out of 50 rds through a 1.5" hole at 100m. It always draws the shooters to the left and right of my target, asking "what are you shooting". Made one guy upset because his $1800 ar10 and $1000 scope couldn't out shoot my $250 milsurp with irons.

[Ricochet]

Well, there we go. 1johnlb has gotten them to stabilize and shoot beautifully in a 1:270mm or 1:10.63" twist. I've tried some in my K31 and in my 1896/11, but I pushed them too hard for plain base boolits with poor results. I haven't entirely recovered from the "magnumitis" of my youth. :mrgreen:

[1johnlb]

Well, there we go. 1johnlb has gotten them to stabilize and shoot beautifully in a 1:270mm or 1:10.63" twist. I've tried some in my K31 and in my 1896/11, but I pushed them too hard for plain base boolits with poor results. I haven't entirely recovered from the "magnumitis" of my youth. :mrgreen:

I have several k31's, the tight throat minty bore is the one it shoots the best in. The g1911 shoots it push out of the case as far as you can get it without it falling out, 1-2 tl bands showing. Both between 7-8 grs TG. Single feed, coww hardened with linotype.

[Ricochet]

My K31 is one of the trickiest things to load for, either boolits or J-word. The chamber sharply steps down to .308" right at the end of the case, so it doesn't work well to use anything larger than .308" at the maximum, they'll snag on the ledge. It tapers rapidly into the .296"lands, so anything that goes in there very far has to fit into them. Nearly all .30 bore rider boolits have way too fat noses to chamber unless they're seated all the way down in the cases, which is impractical. Even Hornady J* bullets won't seat at normal lengths and chamber, they have to be pushed in till the ogive is almost down to the case mouth. The K-31 is perfectly optimized for the GP11 round and isn't versatile at all. The GP11 bullet is odd, being .300"right in front of the cannelure and tapering from there. The part down in the case is .306". The 1911 models are more practical for hand loaders than the K31s. The Lee Blackout boolit with a straight gas check shank would actually be a great K31 boolit. That'd probably push it up to 240 grains.

[1johnlb]

Here's the new one I'm playing with, built just for these tight throat Swiss and a link to a thread posting some of my results.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256026-VELOCITY-7-5X55-IMR4831-DACRON-cci-mag&p=2962796#post2962796

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=343

[NoAngel]

If there's a lousier bullet design out there, I ain't seen it. I tried this turd and was sorely dissappointed.

[Thompsoncustom]

The bore ride of mine as cast are .297 but I've coated them 4 times now and bumped them up to .301 hoping to have better luck with them flying straight

[Ricochet]

1johnlb, that NOE looks like a perfect design for the K-31. I had thought the Lee C309-200-R a good candidate, but the one I got dropped .302" bore riders that wouldn't chamber. I'd heard lots of folks fussing about those dropping .298" bore riders, posted about it, and did a swap with someone who had a skinny nosed mould and wanted the fat one. Haven't yet gotten around to trying that one in the K31, but hopefully it'll work.

[Thompsoncustom]

Tired my bumped up bore ride section bullets and had the best luck so far by far. None of my bullets were flying sideways they all seemed to be true at 25 yards. Tired 3 different loads 13gr Power pistol, 27gr imr 3031 and 30gr imr 3031.

To my surprise the results were backwords from what I guessed they would be the 13gr PP load was the worst they were still hitting the paper straight but a pretty big group, The 27gr imr 3031 was better but still not anything to right home about. The last load 30 grains for imr 3031 seemed to do really well or as good as I can shoot with factory ammo. I wasn't weighting bullets and powder charges are just give or take .1

Here's a pic of the last 10 rounds I had with me. Circled is 30gr's the rest is 27.

118990

I'm guessing with some fine tuning on the bullet weight and powder charge this might be a pretty accurate load but it won't cycle my ar-10 :(

Also none of these bullets have gas checks as I still need to find some I'm guessing that will also help in accuracy department.

[stephen m weiss]

Y'up. You guys got it. They used the cad geometry for short bullets with the nose just .30 diameter and never touching till it was too late and you never hit the target. All the Lee molds do the same thing, but just not as bad effect because the bullets are shorter. Now...let's hope someone wakes up there and sees that the paper punching long engagement length designs have something to them. I think paper wrapping that long dumb nose for a 309 is a grand idea, perhaps even a garand idea. I also am still thinking about swaging on copper bands fore and aft. I used to design platinum band on hard nylon heart catheters swagers.....I have a basic idea.. but havent figured out how to hold the bullet torsionally whilst swaging yet....Catheters are nice and long. Bullets are short. Sry if you dont get my gist.. Prolly dont matter anyways...

smw, msme pe