Bill to disban the ATF

[abunaitoo]

http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=393822

Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) today introduced the ATF Elimination Act (http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/uploadedfiles/atf_elimination_act_bill_text.pdf), which would dissolve the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)

Good or bad????
The duties of the atf will be taken over by other agencies. More problems????

[shooterg]

They ain't gonna fire any Fed employees, so the same bunch of incompetents will be spread over more agencies. At least it'd be one less agency, now if we could disband about 25 more...

[C. Latch]

It's a start.

[Plate plinker]

Might make 10 little devils instead of one really bad one. Guess I am not sure what to think about it yet, but my gut says disband ATF.

[monadnock#5]

Firearms owners will still face increased scrutiny on an Orwellian scale, and any money saved will get thrown down some other rat hole. I think this is what they refer to as a zero sum game.

[MtGun44]

Only will work if the Brady bill and 1966 GCA are repealed, making guns back into
nothing special to buy, ship or own. In 1966 and earlier anyone could buy a rifle or pistol thru
the mail, no different than ordering a book or a hammer, unless there were state or
local laws - which were extremely rare outside of NYC.

Until we get back to that (not likely in my lifetime) it makes little difference who the
jailers are. We are still not free.

Bill

[leeggen]

So I just might that removing the ATF they will probably turn the duties over to the Homeland Security. So what would be gained--- nothing we still would have idiots making their idea of how a law is taken.
CD

[Lonegun1894]

I'm not fan of ATF, but I would like to know how the plan to distribute the duties ATF performs now before voting yay or nay on this one. Sometimes it is better to have a PIA that you know than several that blindside you. I know this much, I would much rather deal with ATF than Homeland Security, just based on the people I have met from both agencies. ATF agents, even if kinda short with the way they treat people, tend to be educated and use at least their form of common sense so we all know what to expect from them cause they're consistent. The HS guys I have met, seem more like teenage mall security with more authority and "steroid rage" issues.

[Ramar]

Privatize it if you want it to work; that is to keep the guns from the bad guys.
Ramar

[NWPilgrim]

Disband the ATF.

Even if the enforcement is transferred to other agencies, it will be their secondary focus and lower priority compared to their normal workload.

Agree with MtgGun we need the 1968 and 1986 acts repealed for any real change. Used to buy guns at any hardware store, Pennys, Sears, and mailorder like any hardware. I don't recall we had a "gun violence" problem back then either. Most you g men understood if you broke into a guy's house, garage or car you stood a fair chance of being shot, rightfully so.

[NavyVet1959]

Both the GCA of 1968 and the NFA of 1934 are unconstitutional. Repeal them! That will mean the ATF jackbooted thugs will need to find honest jobs. Then again, they might continue their criminal tendencies and go to work for the IRS.

[Lead Fred]

Get Rand Paul in, and he will get rid of all the alphabet departments, and ever exec order ever written.

Like that is gonna happen

[10x]

It will result in "the same manure, different folks forking it..." The laws and regulations the ATF operate under will still exist, and the same folks will administer those laws. They will just do so under another department like Homeland Security.
One thing that will happen for sure is that those who administer and enforce the law will get more teeth and less oversight from Congress, and will be much less accountable for their actions.

The Canadian experience. Thee responsibility for the administration of the Firearms Act and the operation of the Canada Firearms Centre was transferred to the RCMP in May 2006. This was done at the request of those who administer the system.
The effect was to isolate those who administer and enforce the Canadian gun laws from 1) the direct control of the Canadian Cabinet minister in charge of the gun law program and b) from any oversight by the government - they are NOT accountable to Parliament when the law is bent or broken c) the law is enforced in an extremely restrictive manner rather than a permissive manner and d) policy is enforce rather that legislation and regulation.

The move to disband will give an entrenched bureaucracy within another government department where abuse of gun owners can take place and can be covered up with the excuse that it is a "national security issue" and political interference is not appropriate.
In Canada enforcement of the gun laws (Applied to licensed law abiding gun owners) is an RCMP issue. Any political interference with the abuse of Canadian gun owners by those who deliver the system CAN NOT BE ADDRESSED OR REMEDIED BY THE POLITICIANS. It is extremely difficult to even lay a criminal charge against those who miss use Canadian gun laws, let alone get a conviction in the courts.

Be very careful of what you ask government, you may get exactly what you ask for and the opposite of what you want.

[Garyshome]

Not gonna happen! Downsize .Gov? I don't think so.

[Jailer]

It will result in "the same manure, different folks forking it..." The laws and regulations the ATF operate under will still exist, and the same folks will administer those laws. They will just do so under another department like Homeland Security.
One thing that will happen for sure is that those who administer and enforce the law will get more teeth and less oversight from Congress, and will be much less accountable for their actions.

The Canadian experience. Thee responsibility for the administration of the Firearms Act and the operation of the Canada Firearms Centre was transferred to the RCMP in May 2006. This was done at the request of those who administer the system.
The effect was to isolate those who administer and enforce the Canadian gun laws from 1) the direct control of the Canadian Cabinet minister in charge of the gun law program and b) from any oversight by the government - they are NOT accountable to Parliament when the law is bent or broken c) the law is enforced in an extremely restrictive manner rather than a permissive manner and d) policy is enforce rather that legislation and regulation.

The move to disband will give an entrenched bureaucracy within another government department where abuse of gun owners can take place and can be covered up with the excuse that it is a "national security issue" and political interference is not appropriate.
In Canada enforcement of the gun laws (Applied to licensed law abiding gun owners) is an RCMP issue. Any political interference with the abuse of Canadian gun owners by those who deliver the system CAN NOT BE ADDRESSED OR REMEDIED BY THE POLITICIANS. It is extremely difficult to even lay a criminal charge against those who miss use Canadian gun laws, let alone get a conviction in the courts.

Be very careful of what you ask government, you may get exactly what you ask for and the opposite of what you want.

10x is 100% spot on.

The ONLY way you would see any change is if the laws, rules and regulations that they enforce were abolished along with the department. And even then it wouldn't be long before new ones were put in place to replace them.

[ole 5 hole group]

ATF has been on the chopping block before and always survived - can't see much changing today. One of the driving forces in the past to see ATF disbanded was the FBI - they wanted the ATF Lab, which is one of the best in the world, if not the best.

In the last attempt, if my memory serves me correctly, most agents would have been transferred to US Customs, a few to DEA while the techs were going to the FBI. Homeland security would probably take everyone now, including the Lab.


When you have a lawless doj and wh - they will appoint their lap dogs to head/administer the different agencies for the purpose of implementing their agendas which we saw happening prior to the uncovering of "Fast & Furious" and the IRS debacle.

If this does come to pass, it'll still be "different day - same sh*t".

[blackthorn]

10x--+1!!!

[jmsj]

I'm not fan of ATF, but I would like to know how the plan to distribute the duties ATF performs now before voting yay or nay on this one. Sometimes it is better to have a PIA that you know than several that blindside you. I know this much, I would much rather deal with ATF than Homeland Security, just based on the people I have met from both agencies. ATF agents, even if kinda short with the way they treat people, tend to be educated and use at least their form of common sense so we all know what to expect from them cause they're consistent. The HS guys I have met, seem more like teenage mall security with more authority and "steroid rage" issues.
I gotta to agree w/ Lonegun.
Do a little research and look at the purchases and power grabs this agency are getting. They scare me more than any other agency around. I would rather see this one disbanded first.

[lefty o]

the ATFE serves a purpose, the problem is they have very little oversight, and make up their own rules as they go along. they have been given too much power for too long, and that is the problem of the so called lawmakers, not the ATFE.

[MT Gianni]

What would it do to tee shirt sales? [Alcohol, tobacco, firearms; Who's bringing chips?] is the one I see most often. I can think of around a dozen federal agencies that should disappear but none ever will.

[lbaize3]

Reducing the Federal government is too much to ask for, considering the self perpetuating nature of said entity. No federal bureaucracy goes softly into the night.

[nekshot]

I long for the america before ww2. I dread to think of our little towns and peach fuzz cops getting more responsibility to take up the slack of a down sized dept. I know there are very good police in the line of duty, its just that I can think of a few local cops that would qualify for front line duty anywhere but here!

[Lonegun1894]

I have been thinking about this one, and gotta say I agree wih the ones who say this. I will stand by my previous statement about knowing what were changing to instead of just changing for the sake of change. But in the end, we need to revoke the laws such as the NFA 1934, GCA 1968, etc. I'm all for violent criminals losing their gun rights and those laws being enforced, but the rest of us should be able to have anything (short of nukes, bio/chem weapons, and such) we want without so much as paperwork to fill out, or taxes, or restrictions. I mean, we have laws against felons being in possession of firearms anyway, and it doesn't really matter if they have a handgun, rifle, shotgun, etc. So lets enforce them against criminals, and leave the rest of us alone. If we can get that done, I have a feeling we could do away with several of these types of agencies regulating many things that they have no business sticking their hands in.

[seaboltm]

Both the GCA of 1968 and the NFA of 1934 are unconstitutional. Repeal them! That will mean the ATF jackbooted thugs will need to find honest jobs. Then again, they might continue their criminal tendencies and go to work for the IRS.

Now your talking. The duties of the ATF could be merely transferred to another agency. Start with the GCA and the NFA, then move on to the move on to the FOPA of 1986.

[NavyVet1959]

The biggest problem with the ATF (other than it's mere existence being unconstitutional) is that they can "interpret" the (unconstitutional) laws however they want and create regulations that go far beyond what was intended. But that is a problem with every agency out there.

[popper]

Would just give homeland more power. I see the nanny Blum. attorneys are after Remington for all 700 series back to the late 1800s. Just trying to get rid of Remington. I got a letter from Toyota today, the want to reprogram my vehicle for engine cutoff under certain conditions, due to a single lawsuit with NO, absolutely NO evidence of a problem. Engine cutoff by applying brake & accel at same time but doesn't lock the steering. Don't think I'll get it. I can shift to neutral and let the engine blow if needed.
Happy to see Gear is back, hope everything is OK with him.

[10x]

Would just give homeland more power. I see the nanny Blum. attorneys are after Remington for all 700 series back to the late 1800s. Just trying to get rid of Remington. I got a letter from Toyota today, the want to reprogram my vehicle for engine cutoff under certain conditions, due to a single lawsuit with NO, absolutely NO evidence of a problem. Engine cutoff by applying brake & accel at same time but doesn't lock the steering. Don't think I'll get it. I can shift to neutral and let the engine blow if needed.
Happy to see Gear is back, hope everything is OK with him.

So if you are sitting at a stop sign at an approach with an up incline to climb onto a road, foot on the brake to keep from rolling backwards, you press the accelerator and the engine dies or looses power??? That is going to cause grief. frustration, and accidents big time.

[HeavyMetal]

My Grandfather said it several times:

Be Careful What You Wish For, You May Get It!

Dislike the ATF and the way it's run but disbanding it smells like a Political ploy to get something else, LOL!

Suggest strongly that a bill requiring all Dept Heads have a senate confimation hearing, term limits and citizen oversite with the Oversite group having the power to fire dept heads without notice!

This will control both ATF, Homeland Security, the IRS and any other "Tool" dept the Anti's try to use

[Char-Gar]

Many bills are introduced that have zero chance of passage, they are in effect still born. Congressman do this to juice their next campaign and have something on their flyer that appeals to voters in their district. "He introduced a bill to eliminate the awful ATF!".

[Recluse]

Many bills are introduced that have zero chance of passage, they are in effect still born. Congressman do this to juice their next campaign and have something on their flyer that appeals to voters in their district. "He introduced a bill to eliminate the awful ATF!".

Bingo.

Just another way to seduce the law-abiding gun-owner. NO bureaucrat in his or her right mind would ever want to reduce the size of their empire and scope of their power/control.

:coffee:

[C. Latch]

Many bills are introduced that have zero chance of passage, they are in effect still born. Congressman do this to juice their next campaign and have something on their flyer that appeals to voters in their district. "He introduced a bill to eliminate the awful ATF!".

You forgot to add the part where, long after their bill dies and fades into obscurity, they vote on some other legislation that actually increases the power of the organization they 'tried to kill'.

[dakotashooter2]

I agree that it would probably fall to homeland security which would be worse. At least the ATF is supposed to be following the law even if they make their own interpretation. Homeland security doesn't even have to do that.

[Elkins45]

Unless GCA '68 and NFA '34 somehow go away eliminating the ATF won't mean anything.

I was in DC for a meeting this weekend. There are cranes on the skyline everywhere. Government buildings and the private companies who cater to them are the one area of economic boom.

There aren't many cranes on the skyline here in KY.