LY 311284... help!

[straphanger]

Bought a 311284 mold from Midway a few months ago, before I started reading this forum (or I would have known better)!

First outing yesterday with said bullet in 2 of my 30-06 Springfields, results were beyond terrible. I could have done better using a 2'' .38, blindfolded, and left handed at 100 yards. Bullets went everywhere, couldn't begin to get a group even at 50 yards.

Load was as follows: 311284 approx 214 grains, as cast, .309-.3095 body, .299 nose measured w a micrometer (not a caliper).

LC 69 brass, Win primers, 19.0 gr 2400, no filler, OAL 3.252", bullets seated out to lower edge of first driving band based on the throat of my vintage '03 target rifle. There was no evidence of leading.

After that dismal showing, I loaded the '03 target rifle with 168 Sierra mk's and 43.0 gr of 3031. Put 10 shots into a measured 1.3" at 100 (iron sights) and my 66 year old eyes. It's not the rifle.

I suspect I have one of the undersize Lyman molds mentioned in some older threads. IS THERE A SOURCE OUT THERE THAT CAN FIX THIS MOLD AND BUMP THE AS CAST SIZE UP TO .310-.311 body and .301 nose??

I have a 7.5 Swiss. Should I try them in it? Really don't know how their barrels size out in bore and grooves.

Or should I just put this up for sale on ebay and be done with it!

Help appreciated. Thanks!

[texassako]

What alloy were you using, Lyman specs their mold sizes with #2. You might try starting with 16 gr of 2400 and see what it does as well. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

[RayinNH]

Strap, welcome aboard. Use the search function and look up "beagling". This will help you also to get extra girth on that boolit.

[Larry Gibson]

What alloy? Appears, based on bullet weight and as cast size you used straight COWWs? If so the "undersized" as cast bullet is not the fault of the mould.

If that's the alloy used then add 2% tin to the COWWs and cast at 715* +/- and WQ.

Size at .311 and seat GCs before sizing. Be careful sizing, it is easy to bend the 311284 when sizing in a Lubrasizer.

I also suggest dropping to 16 gr 2400, use a 3/4 gr Dacron filler and work up to 23 - 24 gr. Using a medium burning powder such as 4895 (26 - 32 gr) with the Dacron filler or even a slower burning powder such as 4831 might be better. Just picking a load and expecting it to shoot excellently is a bit unrealistic. It's one of the reasons we "work up loads"........to find accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

This does not make any sense to me. 311284 is a classic mold for the 30-06 and has always done well. Yes, your bullets are a smidge small on the body and the nose, but that does not account for your problems. Yes, groups will be smaller with a body of .310-.311 and a nose of .300-.301, but not the kind of difference you are talking about. The original Barlow/Ideal designs like 311284 are not true bore riding design. The long body will allow decent if not great accuracy even though the nose is a smidgen to small.

You didn't give your group size, but your prose would make me believe the groups were 6 inches or greater, perhaps much greater. In a decent 03A3, 03 or Model 70 this bullets should give 1.5 to 2 MOA without much sweat.

I can only point you to some possible areas of concern;

1. Have you cleaned that barrel down to bare steel? Metal fouling in a barrel will abrade metal from a cast bullet just like a file. If not, this could very well be your problem.

2. 19/2400 is approaching the useful limit of 2400 in the 30-06 round. A reduction to 16 would be a better place to start.

3. Then of course there is always the issue of alloy and/or lube none of which you mentioned in your post.

In closing, I need to say that having seen many hundreds or thousands of these type threads, after dragging all of the information out of the poster, the cause often become very evident. Most often the critical information is missing and we are trying to diagnose the cause with blinders on until we get the necessary information.

I would like to know;

Condition of the bore
Cleaned of metal fouling or not
Rifling twist.
Bore and groove diameter of the barrel
Alloy of the bullet
Type of bullet lube
Was the bullet put through a sizer, if so what kind
What method and type of die was used to seat the bullet

All of the above could be the cause or be a factor in the cause of your poor accuracy. Bullet size and powder type and charge weight are just two of many factors.

[straphanger]

Thanks for all the observations. In reply to the questions...

Alloy was straight wheelweights.
The barrels were not cleaned.
One of the '03 is an original 1930 mfg w a 1-30 barrel, the other is a vintage '03 heavy bbl target rifle complete with Unertl scope bocks, not sure of the twist on either. I'd guess 1 in 10. Both shoot well with 168 and 174 grain jacketed bullets. I'm sure the twist is fast enough for a long bullet. Bores are bright and shiny, strong rifling, not sure about the throats. I set the OAL on the batch for the hb rifle by starting a bullet in an empty case and gently closing the bolt on it and extracting to estimate where the front of the throat was...used that to set OAL.

Don't know the bore and groove diameter. Don't have cerrosafe handy, but I doubt either is abnormal.

Bullets were as cast. Not sized or gas checked.

Lyman M die was used, but neck tension was tight.

Lube was from Buffalo Arms and what I use for .45 70.

The FL size and seater dies were 1960 vintage CH, press was also an old CH fwiw.

I was trying for 1600 fps. According to my old Lyman cast bullet handbook, 19 grains of 2400 does that. I have 2400, WCC 846, IMR 3031, IMR 4064, Unique and W231. 2400 seemed suitable.

[Char-Gar]

OK.....

1. Clean the barrels down to steel to get rid of jacketed metal fouling. The old standby is Sweets 7.62, but the new spray in foam Wipe-Out is much faster. Follow the instructions on the product. Use it until you only get a trace of green or blue on a clean patch. This will take some time. Do not flag or surrender. You may just want to start with one. You will be surprised how much green goop comes out of those barrels. Those old barrels will have lots and lots of copper. If you don't believe me just shine a strong light into the muzzle and look at the grooves at an angle and you will see it, all nice and yellow looking. It has got to go.

2. I looked up that lube and it is black powder stuff. Buy some decent lube and I don't mean tumble lube. The old NRA Formula 50-50 will do just fine.

3. Drop the charge to 16/2400

4. I note you did not use a gas check and there is your major problem. You are going way, way to fast for plain based bullets. Either use a gas check or drop the velocity to around 1,000 to 1,200 with Unique or Bulleye powder.

4. After you have done this, shoot some more groups and report back. Your result will be different and better.

As usual your problems were not what you supposed. A different alloy might add a little diameter, but that is not your principal problems, which are;

1. Metal fouled barrel
2. Wrong type of bullet lube
3. No gas check at velocities way past the limits of plain based bullets.

Put these together and you will get what you got 100% of the time. There is no mystery here.

[Blammer]

there is your problem, no gas checks on a GC bullet.

[Char-Gar]

there is your problem, no gas checks on a GC bullet.

You can shoot bullets designed for gas checks without gas checks if;

1. The bullet body is big enough to seal the bore..and..
2. You drop the velocity way down.

Ed Harris has been getting good results out of such bullets in the 30-06 pushed along with +- 7 grains of Bulleye.

As is so often the case, it is what these guys don't tell you, that is the root cause of their problems. I have seen this over and over again. One you get all the info, the problem is as plain as rat poop in the sugar bowl.

[Larry Gibson]

Alright.

Add 2% tin to your alloy as previously mentioned. Your bullets should drop .311 at least on the drive bands if you cast them right.

Obviously you don't have a lubrasizer. Get a Lee .311 sizer. Get some Hornady GCs or Blammer's GCs. You can seat and crimp GC on the bullets with it while sizing. Read the instructions for the Lee Liquid Alox lube (comes with the Lee sizer), follow them using the LLA to lube the bullets with.

Drop to 16 gr of 2400, use a 3/4 gr Dacron filler and work up as previously mentioned. Read the sticky on Proper use of fillers for the how and the why. Consider a medium or slower burning powder if available.

If you want to shoot just a plinking load w/o a GC then still add the 2% tin to the alloy and lube with LLA. Switch to Unique or Bullseye powder and drop the velocity to 1000 - 1200 fps.

Larry Gibson

[straphanger]

Thanks to all who replied. I asked for help and got it. Will work on remedial action and try again!

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=straphanger;2946774]Thanks to all who replied. I asked for help and got it. Will work on remedial action and try again![/QUOT

Please report back with results. I would like to know how it works for you.

Charles

[Ricochet]

And yes, do try those in your 7.5mm Swiss.

[straphanger]

OK guys, I'm back with range results from the second try. It has taken a while to get the ingredients and time to follow up on the actions.

First off, Wipe Out is great stuff. I applied it at least 5 times to get all the copper fouling out! It worked so well I used it on my M1 and M1a and and a first gen Colt SAA. I think I will try it on my 1919BMG booster next.

I also acquired some Hornady gas checks, a Lee .311 sizing die, some TAC1 lube, and tin from RotoMetals.

I cast new bullets with wheel weights and 2% tin. Dimensions and weight remained about the same. 214 gr (without lube or gas check) nose .299-.300, body .3095-.310. There was some out of roundness. These measurements are perpendicular to the parting line.

I set the gas checks and pushed them thru the .311 die backwards unlubed to crimp the gas checks. I then pan lubed with TAC1 and reran them thru the sizer to remove the excess lube.

I loaded them in some neck sized LC Match brass that I had available that had been loaded a half dozen times with jacketed bullets. Loaded these bullets over 16.0 gr 2400, no filler, primed with WLR primers at an OAL of 3.250.

Went to the range today and shot at 100 yards, about 55F, overcast and no wind. I had 11 rounds loaded for the trial for 2 x 3 rd sight ins and a 5 round group. When the first 3 landed on centerline about 7 in low in a nice group I just kept the same point of aim and shot all 11. The group measured 2.24". 10 went into 1.78" with a very nice radial dispersion. While I am sure many on this board can do better,this was a tremendous improvement over my first effort above where I literally couldn't get a group on the 3'x2' target frame.

Recoil in my old hb 1903 target rifle was non-existent. It was a lot of fun and gratifying to get decent results. I want to stress that these weren't first class loads, I didn't weight sort the bullets and the gas check installations weren't the best. I am sure I can do better with reduced component variability thru sorting.I also see a lubri sizer in my future if I do much more of this.

FWIW I also loaded some of my original 311284 cast bullets wo gas checks with the Buffalo Arms bp lube over 10.5 gr Unique, no filler in std GI LC brass. 16 rounds grouped 3.2" at 100 yds. This was an on again off again string, I had a couple of rounds that ftf due to deep seated primers/ light hits, and a buddy stopped by to shoot the breeze in the middle of the string. Most of the dispersion was horizontal stringing due to my tired eyes. All in all I was pleasantly surprised at how accurate this light load was at 100 yds. Again, more care loading and a sunny day would give a better result.

That is about it. Thanks again to all who chimed in with advice...you were right!

[Scharfschuetze]

Good news that. Larry and Char Gar almost always have the answer.

[Gtek]

"I loaded them in some neck sized LC Match brass that I had available that had been loaded a half dozen times with jacketed bullets" -
What size is sized neck ID, fired case neck ID?
Springy hard necks that might need a little heat job?
Push, tap, nose first up through Lee?
You initially captured the attention from several of our Meister's, no turning back now!