Do you make your own defense rounds?

[mallen]

This is probably a question asked by many new folks. and iv read people don't like doing it. but it seems to me, if cast bullets and hand loaded rounds, customized to your firearm and yourself and are thus more accurate, would this not be better? (assuming you use hollow point molds of course.

As far as the arguments iv read "a lawyer will make it seem as if you made more powerful rounds with intent to kill", I use +p defense rounds. the max my firearm will take, already "more powerful" and the same that the police us. i cant see that argument actually meaning much in court, so id like to ask about the rounds themselves.

[txsnowman2k2]

imho, i think it is that the jury only has to HEAR, that "the shooter made his own bullets to kill" and that will tank the proceedings... you can't un-ring a bell... once heard, might not go so good... i would buy the nastiest round that is available at wally world, kmart, etc... and have that as my home defense round...just my 2 cents...tx

[truckerdave397]

The only rounds I will ever use are the ones that are on sale. Nobody can pass up a good sale.

[jmort]

It is baseless nonsense that loading your own ammunition will get you in trouble. There has never ever been a single case where someone loaded his own ammunition for self-defense and got in trouble for it. Never ever. The primary case relied on by the people promoting this notion involved a man who murdered his girlfriend. He said it was a suicide and he is a convicted killer. Ask Harold Fish, who was convicted in a matter involving alleged self-defense, where evidence was allowed that he used a "powerful" 10 mm and had lots of ammunition and guns and took advance firearms training. He was convicted, and fortunately, his conviction was overturned and the trial court was ordered to retry the case based on the appeal. The proponents of the "no reload doctrine" never warn of the real danger of using "powerful" handguns and having lots of guns and ammunition and taking advance firearms training. If you are scared, use the exact gun and ammunition used by the local LEOs.

[Oreo]

IANAL, YMMV
I've come to a few conclusions for myself. First is that if I have to shoot defensively, in the aftermath the least of my concerns will be the ammo used. The bigger concern is just making sure I protect my family and self in a way that keeps me out of jail. Defend your life with whatever you've got. Cast boolits, JHPs, bug spray, or a friggin frying pan if that's all that's available. Survive first, everything else second.

Second, there's lots of folks here who have shown their cast boolits perform on game as well or better then any commercially produced ammo, so It can be done. However, testing your boolits and loads for terminal performance will be important. A lot of expensive engineering and development goes into the commercial defensive ammo. By the time you do repeated gel and chronograph testing to find the perfect alloy and mv to achieve optimal expansion and penetration you're in pretty deep for time and resources. A few boxes of the best commercial ammo money can buy is, what, $75? If you're going to commit to it do so because you enjoy the task and see it through all the way. If you're going to half-*** it, just buy your SHTF ammo instead.

[pipehand]

If there is a case of self defense, it does not matter what the life is defended with. I would welcome the prosecuting attorney's attack on the type of bullet used as an admission that the shoot was good, and that only by throwing out the "black talon" canard, and throw it back in his face. BTW, I live in a "Castle Doctrine" state.

The handloads for defense thread pops up many times on many internet forums, and Massad Ayoob's name is often brought up. Never have handloads been an issue in a righteous shoot.

[dubber123]

One of the biggest reasons I carry my own ammo is I have 3 times over the past 30 years run into factory ammo with NO powder in it. The live primers fired, but that was it. I have never once forgotten to put powder in a case, especially my self defense ammo, which I am super anal retentive about loading.

[jmort]

Tell that to Harold Fish.

[runfiverun]

I'm pretty sure most everybody here could dig up enough evidence to show that their home made ammo is less lethal [great words to use in court b.t.w.] than 20 different products on the market now.
the prosecuting attorney would be best served looking at something else to try and hang you with.

a shoot is either justified or it ain't, it's pretty clear.

[mallen]

The only rounds I will ever use are the ones that are on sale. Nobody can pass up a good sale.
I like the way you think



IANAL, YMMV
I've come to a few conclusions for myself. First is that if I have to shoot defensively, in the aftermath the least of my concerns will be the ammo used. The bigger concern is just making sure I protect my family and self in a way that keeps me out of jail. Defend your life with whatever you've got. Cast boolits, JHPs, bug spray, or a friggin frying pan if that's all that's available. Survive first, everything else second.

Second, there's lots of folks here who have shown their cast boolits perform on game as well or better then any commercially produced ammo, so It can be done. However, testing your boolits and loads for terminal performance will be important. A lot of expensive engineering and development goes into the commercial defensive ammo. By the time you do repeated gel and chronograph testing to find the perfect alloy and mv to achieve optimal expansion and penetration you're in pretty deep for time and resources. A few boxes of the best commercial ammo money can buy is, what, $75? If you're going to commit to it do so because you enjoy the task and see it through all the way. If you're going to half-*** it, just buy your SHTF ammo instead.
I agree. but in my pursuit of making "the perfect bullet", at some point ill get to where mine are better than factory. This will be down the line obviously. when i have more knoledge, equipment and money


One of the biggest reasons I carry my own ammo is I have 3 times over the past 30 years run into factory ammo with NO powder in it. The live primers fired, but that was it. I have never once forgotten to put powder in a case, especially my self defense ammo, which I am super anal retentive about loading.

I think im going to start weighing my defense rounds.

[500MAG]

Not like I reload ammunition in the hopes that some moron will break into my home and give me a chance to shoot him. With that logic I would be afraid to stab him with the Bowie knife I made.

[mallen]

I'm pretty sure most everybody here could dig up enough evidence to show that their home made ammo is less lethal [great words to use in court b.t.w.] than 20 different products on the market now.
the prosecuting attorney would be best served looking at something else to try and hang you with.

a shoot is either justified or it ain't, it's pretty clear.

RIP ammo.

although, testing shows its not very good.

my idea behind self made defense ammo is customized to me and my gun, to have more accurate aim and not over or under penetrate. thus reducing risk to bystanders.

frankly im not sure they would be more "lethal". a bullet is a bullet is a bullet afterall. if mine transfer the same energy as factory. i dunno, maybe it expands better?

[dragon813gt]

Yes, I load and carry my own SD ammo. But I don't use cast. I use Hornady XTPs. I can't afford to practice w/ factory SD offerings. So I make the equivalent and can practice w/ them. I am not fan of Mr. Ayoob when it comes to this issue. I feel his position is doing us a disservice.

[jmort]

"I think with factory you do dismiss the onus of some "blame" in "determination of killing"."

"The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.
Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?
Lessler: Yes." ...

And what about the gun Fish carried with him? Remember the prosecution said that this is a weapon more powerful than what most police officers carry. ...

Michael Lessler, prosecutor: Mr. Fish shot him three time in the chest with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets and caused his death. That’s murder."

[62chevy]

Tell that to Harold Fish.


I'm surprised Fish didn't shoot the dogs.

[M-Tecs]

Some light reading

http://www.john-ross.net/comments.php

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236828-Defense-loads-food-for-thought

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?238190-Opinions-on-carrying-reloads-for-personal-defense&highlight=Ayoob


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?138065-Cast-bullets-for-self-defense/page2

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/9-ways-your-firearm-can-be-attacked-court

http://www.guns.com/2012/02/20/the-case-for-carrying-handloads-for-personal-defense/

[Shiloh]

It is baseless nonsense that loading your own ammunition will get you in trouble.

Agreed.

I've loaded Hornady XTP's and used Hydra-Shok in home defense ammo.

Shiloh

[dakotashooter2]

My loads are general purpose. I may use them for shooting vermin around the farm, deer or for self defense if necessary. In other words they are not loaded with the specific purpose of killing humans..... Also remember that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. If he brings up that they are more powerfull I would ask that he prove it. He may plant the idea in the jury but when he can't prove it he invalidates the idea.

I liked the black tallon comment. Remember when they were deemed evil because of the jagged edges they produced? Now here we are in 2014 with the environmental push toward non lead bullets and the copper bullets which are used to replace that lead produce the exact same effect as the black tallons and nobody is making a peep.

In regards to what police carry, it often has nothing to do with the most efficient caliber/cartridge or power. Most officers would prefer the largest caliber they can handle. But departments want uniformity in their weapons and generally adopt a caliber that ALL personnel can handle. This often means the 9mm or 40 S&W to accommodate the smaller or less accomplished officers.

[shooter93]

I load my own self defense ammo with cast bullets. Virtually all my handguns get cast bullets only and I don't use hollow points. My self defense ammo is the same ammo I plink with. For handguns I don't load a defense load and a plinking or target load.

[dragon813gt]

Black talons are still sold. They just aren't black and are sold under the Ranger line. Every other manufacturer has bullets that perform exactly the same way.

[RED333]

To answer the OPs topic question.
Yes, by the hundreds, as others have said, if I have to defend myself or loves ones and I pray I never have to,
what I use is gona work.

[Dan Cash]

All my hand gun ammo is cast. None is hollow point. All of it will kill you dead if I use it on you, as dead as any one or two dollar a round "Self Defense," ammo will kill you. It is my choice, regardless what the panty wadders think or say. Mess with me or mine and we will hear what the court has to say afterword but I intend to hear it.

[Lonegun1894]

At work, I carry factory loads because that is what my department pushes on us, but off duty, I just carry whatever is handy, and I have VERY little factory ammo. I figure if anything happens, and I hope it doesn't, I will use whatever is available and effective, and I don't care if that is a firearm (I care that it is loaded, but not with what), or knife, or any other object that will make sure me and mine live. All else is a minor secondary concern. I'm not rich, never have been, never will be, but everything except life is replaceable. Like has been said, there hasn't been any case where it was an issue, and unless handloading itself becomes illegal, I don't think there will be a case. All these discussions do is sell more factory ammo, and I have had 2 factory defensive rounds not fire, thankfully on a range. Both were pulled apart later to figure out what went wrong. The first had no powder, and the second did not have the flash hole drilled. Primer fired as designed, and it had powder, but no ignition route in the brass. A lot of my friends give me grief about preferring my own handloads, but I have never had a nasty surprise from one of them like those two factory loads gave me, so you know what I trust.

[rhead]

If you ever get into a shooting there will be a trial. you will either be the defendant od Exhibit "A". check all the available ammo and go with the one that will give you the best chance to be the one you would rather be.

[Love Life]

A) The Ayboob argument is well...lacking.
B) I don't know how a jury can find my ammo more deadly or designed to kill mo' better when compared to Extreme Shock o or the other boutique super killer bullet makers.

[Blackwater]

I actually worked in and around the courts for over 8 years. Things DO happen and are said in court that nobody who knows anything about the subject at hand, whether it be shooting or whatever, would EVER say or believe. And yet, with juries being composed largely of welfare recipients because all the "good folks" don't want to get off work to serve, SOME of this **** actually winds up being swallowed by those present, no matter how stupid or just plain wrong it might be. Anyone who plans on choosing a self defense round on the basis of what MIGHT happen in court, is whizzing up a rope, and probably shouldn't be carrying anyway. I'll be danged if I'll worry about it, no matter what Ayoob or anyone else says. I usually tote a little .380, which would be relatively immune to such shyster's shenanigans, or a .45 ACP with 200 gr. SWC bullets I use for TARGET shooting. If I'm involved in a shooting, and I once came up to within a bare few ounces of doing so, my ammo won't be on my mind at ALL, before, during or after. It's whether I get to walk away or not that will be on my mind. But so many today like to have something to argue about, and show how "smart" they are, and how "prepared," so arguments like this keep showing up to get the impressionables' panties all in a wad. "New studies" and "New info" sell glossy mags, too, but ..... who considers that when it's his/her LIFE on the line???? Only a dang fool, that's who! If ever you have to use a gun, and need a lawyer, make DANG sure he's one who SHOOTS, so the other side won't be able to make silly, stupid accusations like in the case cited above. Ayoob lives in a large, drug-infested metro area where juries aren't exactly friendly to those who defend themselves, and if he wants to load factories, then he ought to do that .... or move out. I live in a rural area of a college town that's getting more and more urban, but I'll NEVER let uncontrollable things decide what ammo I'll use. It'll be whatever's in the gun at the time, and any lawyer who doesn't point that out at trial, if confronted by shystering grandstanding BS, ought to be disbarred. There ARE lawyers out there who DO shoot, ya' know?

[Garyshome]

If it's shtf time I won't care. Law and order will be a long way off, maybe never to show back up.
Now if it is home defense I will use factory stuff.

[dudel]

I save enough reloading, that I can afford a few boxes of store bought ammo for SD each year. I buy what the local LEOs use. My practice rounds duplicate the velocity and projectile weight. That's me, everyone can do what works for them. Not trying to convince anyone to change out of their comfort zone, and would appreciate the same in return.

[10 ga]

My carry, 45acp with 240 ball as "why shoot more than once", sometimes a .22WMR depending. Home defense, well that is a shotgun, need I say more. And as officers are trained, double tap whenever possible. 10

[str8shot426]

I own zero rounds of factory ammunition.

[tazman]

All my hand gun ammo is cast. None is hollow point. All of it will kill you dead if I use it on you, as dead as any one or two dollar a round "Self Defense," ammo will kill you. It is my choice, regardless what the panty wadders think or say. Mess with me or mine and we will hear what the court has to say afterword but I intend to hear it.

I like the way you think.

[Moonie]

Why isn't this a sticky yet? It comes up regularly and is hashed out for page after page, same things said every time...

[nemesisenforcer]

This is probably a question asked by many new folks. and iv read people don't like doing it. but it seems to me, if cast bullets and hand loaded rounds, customized to your firearm and yourself and are thus more accurate, would this not be better? (assuming you use hollow point molds of course.

As far as the arguments iv read "a lawyer will make it seem as if you made more powerful rounds with intent to kill", I use +p defense rounds. the max my firearm will take, already "more powerful" and the same that the police us. i cant see that argument actually meaning much in court, so id like to ask about the rounds themselves.

First and foremost, trust me, if you ever have to use them, the fact that you made them yourself will almost certainly be brought up in court. I'm a lawyer and I see the most absurd, irrelevant, and prejudicial evidence admitted, or attempt to be admitted, all the time. You're right in that it MIGHT not carry much weight, but the prosecutor will try and bring it up at the very least, take my word for it.

That being said, yes I do load my own defensive rounds for my wife's carry piece, more out of penny pinching than anything else. I had all the components, why spend the money on a new box of ammo if you don't have to?

[Bzcraig]

This horse has been beat to death, resurrected, beat to death, resurrected, beat to death, resurrected, well I think you get my point. Yawn

[M-Tecs]

The prosecutor can make it look like ANY ammo choice is the most evil thing ever.

Reloads = Super killer custom rounds.

Hunting rounds = You want to hunt people.

Same as local PD = You wanna play cops and dead guys.

Target rounds = So people are just targets to you?

Defending your actions is your real concern. Your ammo choice is a non-issue.

[triggerhappy243]

The one thing I have not heard on this subject is someone here really did shoot and kill some one.... and tell all the repercussions that came out of the situation. we can "I heard this" or "i heard that" to death. I would be most concerned that it was a "last resort shoot".... cut and dry. My thoughts? dead men do not lie!

[jmort]

Since we have court records that will suffice. How many people have been elected POTUS? If no one has served as POTUS, then no opinions may be offered as to the acts of any president based on that "logic."

[dolang1]

I have always carried the white box from Wal-Mart in all of my EDC. I always practice with my reloads. I bet some of my carry ammo is 10 years old. The other day, somebody hit a doe in front of me. She still had her head up when I got there. I shot her twice in the heart with 40 S&W. As I drove away I thought she would have been better served if I had shot her with my lead boolits. Now that I have read these posts, I'm going to carry my reloads all the time.

[triggerhappy243]

I see the points made by both sides of the argument. both are valid, but I, myself do not trust the legal system. Do not give them the chance to steal your lunch money.

[reloader28]

I shoot zero factory ammo in any gun.
My handguns are 100% cast boolit shooters. No jacketed. (My rifles are 90% cast shooters)
I have tested the boolits them and made/load them to perform the way I think they need too, and thats what I use. I have plinkers, hunting rounds and SD rounds, and they've all been tested to perform.

I want the deadliest stuff I can make for self defense. Do I make them to be extreme killers? You bet I do. I dont want to chance the bad guy getting back up when my gun is empty and hurting my kids or wife.
For self defense I want the most expansion, the most weight retention and about 14-15" penatration. I make and load them accordingly to do that. Thats only my preference, other opinions vary.

I would rather take my chances in court with these rather than someone elses "self defense" loads.

[TXGunNut]

The one thing I have not heard on this subject is someone here really did shoot and kill some one.... and tell all the repercussions that came out of the situation. we can "I heard this" or "i heard that" to death. I would be most concerned that it was a "last resort shoot".... cut and dry. My thoughts? dead men do not lie!

Folks who have seen the elephant will not discuss it in public, certainly not on an internet forum. There are several good reasons why, I'll leave it at that. Mas has interviewed dozens of folks involved in shootings and while I don't agree with all of his conclusions I respect his work and the folks who talked with him.
For the record I carry factory ammo in my social equipment but it's nothing fancy. My always gun is a .380 loaded with ball ammo, my 45's are loaded with the same ammo I carried for duty use but one gun is a custom job, the other has had a pretty serious tune-up. But that's another can of worms.

[Oleman]

If there is a case of self defense, it does not matter what the life is defended with. I would welcome the prosecuting attorney's attack on the type of bullet used as an admission that the shoot was good, and that only by throwing out the "black talon" canard, and throw it back in his face. BTW, I live in a "Castle Doctrine" state.

The handloads for defense thread pops up many times on many internet forums, and Massad Ayoob's name is often brought up. Never have handloads been an issue in a righteous shoot.

This!

[mallen]

At work, I carry factory loads because that is what my department pushes on us, but off duty, I just carry whatever is handy, and I have VERY little factory ammo. I figure if anything happens, and I hope it doesn't, I will use whatever is available and effective, and I don't care if that is a firearm (I care that it is loaded, but not with what), or knife, or any other object that will make sure me and mine live. All else is a minor secondary concern. I'm not rich, never have been, never will be, but everything except life is replaceable. Like has been said, there hasn't been any case where it was an issue, and unless handloading itself becomes illegal, I don't think there will be a case. All these discussions do is sell more factory ammo, and I have had 2 factory defensive rounds not fire, thankfully on a range. Both were pulled apart later to figure out what went wrong. The first had no powder, and the second did not have the flash hole drilled. Primer fired as designed, and it had powder, but no ignition route in the brass. A lot of my friends give me grief about preferring my own handloads, but I have never had a nasty surprise from one of them like those two factory loads gave me, so you know what I trust.


this is really scary

[dkf]

Black talons are still sold. They just aren't black and are sold under the Ranger line. Every other manufacturer has bullets that perform exactly the same way.

The Ranger T series currently produced are not exactly the same as the Black Talon bullet but close enough. The talons on the new version are actually larger than on the old Black Talons. The whole deal was much adoo about nothing.


To answer the original question. Yes.

[MaryB]

Keep a log of what was loaded, if part of a batch is left have your lawyer take some to a lab to be analyzed for bullet weight and type, amount of powder and your log would supply powder type. They can then either use your reloads or make some up that are identical and test them. Then if it comes up your lawyer has test results to hand to the prosecutor. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6!

[mallen]

ok. well. i think iv come to a conclusion. im going to start making my own defense ammo. Hearing others state how they have gotten bad ammo, especially a case which you can not test by weighing, im not going to risk having a round not go off. round not going off means something bad happens. With the exception of a primer, since I can not find any way to make a reliable primer. Guess ill have to trust God that my primer will go off.

It is not unreasonable to think that man made, factory made, merchandise can and has had defects. So it is not unreasonable to make your own, in which you have no defects (primer not widthstanding).

so, next question. +p ammo goes around 2k FPS? i think is what i read.

[reloader28]

In what??

[pmer]

Carry reloads, if that will give you one more reason not to shoot unless you have to.

I was in court once as a tech who worked on a peice of equipment that trapped someones hand. They drug in the manufacturer and any service companies that worked on it. The lawyers tried to learn the circutry and had expert witnesses to help. The injured persons side had a whole list of reasons why they should get a nice settlement. From faulty design to too many service trips and techs not doing a complete job. They even tried to use the scratch marks on the frame that techs use to reinstall repaired modules to there original position. Oddly it didn't go well for them because they staked their case on a power cord replacement thinking the tech could replace the cord without a routine safety check. The manufacturer offered to settle for more than what they got. So I can see the OP's point of "trying to make anything work for them" and prosecutors not knowing what they should know resulting in getting you or them in trouble.

Funny thing, my Federal 9mm 124 grain Hydra shok JHP is listed as "personal defense". In other words if it is used according to its packaging someone gets hurt or killed. Federal disclaims laibility and says to always keep firearm pointed in a safe direction and wants you to use eye/ear protection too?!

I think you'll be fine with reloads for self defense, just don't have a picture of your X on the box!

[shoot-n-lead]

One of the biggest reasons I carry my own ammo is I have 3 times over the past 30 years run into factory ammo with NO powder in it. The live primers fired, but that was it. I have never once forgotten to put powder in a case, especially my self defense ammo, which I am super anal retentive about loading.

It is easy to determine if carry ammo has a powder charge...scales generally do not lie.

Y'all can carry what you like...I will continue to carry factory ammo.

[dkf]

It is easy to determine if carry ammo has a powder charge...scales generally do not lie.

Y'all can carry what you like...I will continue to carry factory ammo.

I take it you have not weighed much brass and bullets in your day.:wink:

[triggerhappy243]

I think the meeting is over.

[rondog]

Yes, I do. I trust my ammo to work more reliably than anything mass produced by machines. I don't even buy factory ammo anymore, except .22lr and milsurp. I don't believe in hype and nonsense by the fear mongers either. For that matter, .38 Special wadcutters are just as deadly as anything else.

[Digital Dan]

Every round is a self defense round.

[Petrol & Powder]

There's a lot of discussion on this thread that seems to intertwine a criminal trial with a civil trial. They are two separate animals.
The use of deadly force could easily result in being exposed to both a criminal & civil trial, only one of those two actions or even no actions.

In a criminal trial (the state vs. you), the type of ammunition would likely not play a key role in most cases. The issues in murder & manslaughter revolve mostly around why deadly force was used and the nature of that force takes a back seat. In murder & manslaughter cases both sides will generally agree that someone is dead. How they became to be dead is less of a concern than as to the question of WHY they became dead. In a criminal trial the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a high standard but the stakes are high as well. If the government prevails they can take the defendant's property, freedom and in some cases, even his life.

In a civil trial (you vs. someone else) where a death occurred; the issue is generally a wrongful death claim. The plaintiff (not a prosecutor) will attempt to establish that the defendant took a life without justification. It is very likely that the plaintiff's attorney will use ANY theory he believes will improve his client's chances of success, including questioning the type of ammunition used.
NOW HERE'S THE IMPORTANT POINT - Just because the plaintiff attempts to make the type of ammunition used an issue in the case, doesn't mean that effort will be successful ! The judge and/or jury in a civil trial may decide that the type of ammunition used is a non-issue but that will not stop the plaintiff from trying to make that claim.
In a civil case, they can't take your freedom or life from you but they can damn sure take your money.
The standard in a civil case is preponderance of the evidence and that is a much lower standard than beyond a reasonable doubt.

The use of handloads in self defense may be a total non-issue in a civil case (I believe it is a non-issue but what I believe doesn't matter even a little) but that will not stop a diligent plaintiff's attorney from making that argument. The use of handloads vs. factory loads is a choice you get to make LONG before a potential deadly force situation occurs. Why give a potential plaintiff's attorney that extra card to play by using handloads? What do you have to gain by that decision?

[triggerhappy243]

my point exactly.

[pmer]

Not to mention it will probably take 1-3 years to get through the civil case and through discovery both sides are going to learn your an avid shooter and reloader. It seemed to boil down to which side can win the most jurors.

[Blackwater]

Great synopsis, P&P. And you're right, the shysters ARE out there, and there's a significant chance that they'll TRY that sort of thing, usually in total ignorance. If the defendant, YOU OR ME, isn't cowed by unjust accusations, though, MOST juries will be able to tell by his response on the stand that the opposition's claim is rediculous. Not ALL juries, as in large SMSA inner city types, but MOST. Nothing much works ALL the time in those inner city wastelands, though, so a wise attorney will try to get a change of venue as his first move. And a very wise one.

It's amazing to me how many people are cowed and intimidated by false accusations today. Once, these would have been met by offensive responses of high order, but today, political correctness dictates that we think SOMETHING is wrong with any accused, even if it's rediculous on the face of it. Positively AMAZING! We're not supposed to argue. either, but when in he!! has history recorded whole masses of people joining hands and singing "We are the world????" If we don't start standing on, and EXPECTING Truth from each other, we're not going to last much longer as a nation, and this subject is a clear-cut sign of that. Even the question itself shows how low this nation (as a whole) has sunk into the dungeons of lies overcoming Truth and PC overcoming elemental common sense. Standing on simple True principles is ALWAYS the way to go. If it goes against you, it was probably something akin to destiny that it happen that way. Most times, though, even today, Truth CAN win out over lies and stupidity. It just takes a whale of a lot of effort to get it there sometimes, and most people seem to give up if they don't succeed early and easy, but that's THEIR fault, and it's also part of the reason lies and stupidity win out sometimes. Keep fighting the righteous fight, with Truth and Justice on your side, and sooner or later you'll win out. Yes, that CAN be expensive and VERY unpleasant, but is that preferable to lying in a cold, cold grave? I think not. But that's just me. Each of us has to decide whether we are WORTH the "best defense" or not, and whatever that may entail in achieving it. So, it all ends up being a personal decision, and personal decisions must always be based on individual values and perceptions, and then strained through whatever determination we may have, or lack. It's the determination part that's so hard to find today, and more's the pity for that. It's the reason stupid cases get logged into the books as precedent, but even they can be challenged, and challenged effectively. It's just a matter of technique, expertise, knowledge and determination on the part of the accused and his attorney - another reason to get a GOOD attorney, and not the Wal-Mart cheapie if you EVER have to go to court.
My Grandfather used to say if you wanted justice, go to a bawdy house. If you want to get screwed, go to court. He was a wise man, but if THAT man had ever had to go to court, I believe his cussed determination would have won out, no matter what. In court, it's often the one who quits trying first that loses. You can take THAT to the bank!

[shooter93]

It may even depend more where you live than what you shot with. The couple shootings here that were pretty obviously self defense never reached the courts. DA wasn't interested and the civil suits died on the vine because lawyers told them it was a no win situation. But...a case could be made either way against you again depending on location and lawyers. If you use your own reloads then you made this ammunition to be "super effective" in killing a human being. You made it to penetrate and destroy vital organs so there would be no chance of him surviving. Use factory ammo with it vicious hollow points and notches cut in it to make it into flying petals spinning 100,000 rpm ripping an tearing through his flesh. Carry what you want.

[mallen]

There's a lot of discussion on this thread that seems to intertwine a criminal trial with a civil trial. They are two separate animals.
The use of deadly force could easily result in being exposed to both a criminal & civil trial, only one of those two actions or even no actions.

In a criminal trial (the state vs. you), the type of ammunition would likely not play a key role in most cases. The issues in murder & manslaughter revolve mostly around why deadly force was used and the nature of that force takes a back seat. In murder & manslaughter cases both sides will generally agree that someone is dead. How they became to be dead is less of a concern than as to the question of WHY they became dead. In a criminal trial the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a high standard but the stakes are high as well. If the government prevails they can take the defendant's property, freedom and in some cases, even his life.

In a civil trial (you vs. someone else) where a death occurred; the issue is generally a wrongful death claim. The plaintiff (not a prosecutor) will attempt to establish that the defendant took a life without justification. It is very likely that the plaintiff's attorney will use ANY theory he believes will improve his client's chances of success, including questioning the type of ammunition used.
NOW HERE'S THE IMPORTANT POINT - Just because the plaintiff attempts to make the type of ammunition used an issue in the case, doesn't mean that effort will be successful ! The judge and/or jury in a civil trial may decide that the type of ammunition used is a non-issue but that will not stop the plaintiff from trying to make that claim.
In a civil case, they can't take your freedom or life from you but they can damn sure take your money.
The standard in a civil case is preponderance of the evidence and that is a much lower standard than beyond a reasonable doubt.

The use of handloads in self defense may be a total non-issue in a civil case (I believe it is a non-issue but what I believe doesn't matter even a little) but that will not stop a diligent plaintiff's attorney from making that argument. The use of handloads vs. factory loads is a choice you get to make LONG before a potential deadly force situation occurs. Why give a potential plaintiff's attorney that extra card to play by using handloads? What do you have to gain by that decision?

99.999% reliability

[jonp]

It is baseless nonsense that loading your own ammunition will get you in trouble. There has never ever been a single case where someone loaded his own ammunition for self-defense and got in trouble for it. Never ever. The primary case relied on by the people promoting this notion involved a man who murdered his girlfriend. He said it was a suicide and he is a convicted killer. Ask Harold Fish, who was convicted in a matter involving alleged self-defense, where evidence was allowed that he used a "powerful" 10 mm and had lots of ammunition and guns and took advance firearms training. He was convicted, and fortunately, his conviction was overturned and the trial court was ordered to retry the case based on the appeal. The proponents of the "no reload doctrine" never warn of the real danger of using "powerful" handguns and having lots of guns and ammunition and taking advance firearms training. If you are scared, use the exact gun and ammunition used by the local LEOs.

^^^YUP

Despite everyone"s best effort this urban legend of reloading your own ammo will get you convicted every time continues on with a life of its own.
I do not reload defensive ammo simply because I can buy some that is very effective as it is and I need it to work everytime. The only firearm I deviate from this is with my 45Colt which I reload with 255gr boolits over enough H110 to shoot through a tree. This is not my carry gun, I keep it on my nightstand at times. All my carry guns get factory such as Federal Low Recoil or Hydra Shocks.
Any of the modern self defense rounds by the manu's will work just fine. Remember, your not getting in a gun battle, your trying to disable the aggressor and get the heck away as fast as possible.

[Petrol & Powder]

99.999% reliability for what? Reloads or Factory ammo?
I'm not being a jerk, I just don't know how to take that.
Are you implying you believe reloads are more reliable or factory ammo is more reliable?
Either way, It is part of your decision making process.

[mallen]

Reload are more reliable. Creating ammo is a manufacturing process, prone to quality control issues. Most reloaders, once experienced, make perfect ammo. factories sometimes make mistakes. read above, there are people here with experiences with SD ammo not firing. no powder, even no hole in the case for the primer. these are issues that can not happen with a quality reload. you can examine every case, measure each charge by hand. the only thing you can not control is the primer.

[M-Tecs]

Any case history of actual civil trials that handloads became an issue? Which would be better in civil court - Zombie Max or handloads?

[mallen]

Any case history of actual civil trials that handloads became an issue?
from what others here have said, there arnt any

[M-Tecs]

It has been a limited issue in a couple of criminal cases but it seems to be even rarer in civil cases.

Some references to the criminal cases

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=577414

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448754

I can't find anything on the civil side.

[Petrol & Powder]

Reload are more reliable. Creating ammo is a manufacturing process, prone to quality control issues. Most reloaders, once experienced, make perfect ammo. factories sometimes make mistakes. read above, there are people here with experiences with SD ammo not firing. no powder, even no hole in the case for the primer. these are issues that can not happen with a quality reload. you can examine every case, measure each charge by hand. the only thing you can not control is the primer.


OK, thank you

[Petrol & Powder]

Any case history of actual civil trials that handloads became an issue? Which would be better in civil court - Zombie Max or handloads?

Given those two options - handloads.

What if the options are handloads vs. what your local PD carries?

[bruce381]

my defense laod is
whats in the gun at the time its needed

[mallen]

my defense laod is
whats in the gun at the time its needed
so then question is, what is in your gun when you are just going about your day.

[M-Tecs]

Given those two options - handloads.

What if the options are handloads vs. what your local PD carries?

Winchester Ranger T is what my local PD is currently issuing. I shoot leag's with a couple of local LE.

http://www.guns.com/2013/03/22/winchester-black-talon-versus-winchester-ranger-t-then-v-now-video/

[mallen]

Winchester Ranger T is what my local PD is currently issuing. I shoot leg's with a couple of local LE.

http://www.guns.com/2013/03/22/winchester-black-talon-versus-winchester-ranger-t-then-v-now-video/

can you buy the projectiles?

[zxcvbob]

Yes, I do. That way, I practice with the same ammo that I carry or use for HD. I do have some j-word ammo that I carry in my pocket for a reload, because it carries in a pocket better.

[mallen]

what projectiles do you use?

[zxcvbob]

what projectiles do you use?

Who, me? Lee 358-158-RF's cast from kind-of soft lead. It has a wide flat nose with a sharp edge.

I've also used Magnus bullets #515 (158 grain swaged lead hollow-points).

[mallen]

what is swagged

[mallen]

having trouble finding manufacturer bullets that are worth the cost. or even any different than cast hollow points.

[mallen]

swaging being pressing a chucnk of lead into shape?

seems like a lot of work.

[Petrol & Powder]

my defense laod is
whats in the gun at the time its needed

Really? No Kidding?




Duh!

[mallen]

had an empty mag in my pocket the other day, does that count?

[silverado]

I recently started loading my own sd ammo. I use xtp j words with a top load of unique. Hope I never have to answer why.

[mallen]

What is plus P. i thought it was just more powder. someone mentioend blending powders for it.

[mallen]

hornady doesnt make anything decent for 9mm. and if its jsut a basic hollow point i would jsut make my own

[hickfu]

If all I have laying around is my reloads then thats whats going in the defense gun, but mostly I use Critical defense ammo for the 45acp

Doc

[pmer]

The problem is all ammo is assembled wether by machine or by a handloader. I wouldn't doubt the beginning of a new production run is loaded by hand at Hornaday or Federal Cart. etc. Next "they" will say to not use the military green hulled 00 buck in your home deffence shot gun because its OD green and "were you playing army?"

There is no difference in the ammo if it is loaded to same parameters by machine or by hand.

[MaryB]

In MN they cannot sue you if the shooting was justified https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=611A.08&year=2007


There's a lot of discussion on this thread that seems to intertwine a criminal trial with a civil trial. They are two separate animals.
The use of deadly force could easily result in being exposed to both a criminal & civil trial, only one of those two actions or even no actions.

In a criminal trial (the state vs. you), the type of ammunition would likely not play a key role in most cases. The issues in murder & manslaughter revolve mostly around why deadly force was used and the nature of that force takes a back seat. In murder & manslaughter cases both sides will generally agree that someone is dead. How they became to be dead is less of a concern than as to the question of WHY they became dead. In a criminal trial the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a high standard but the stakes are high as well. If the government prevails they can take the defendant's property, freedom and in some cases, even his life.

In a civil trial (you vs. someone else) where a death occurred; the issue is generally a wrongful death claim. The plaintiff (not a prosecutor) will attempt to establish that the defendant took a life without justification. It is very likely that the plaintiff's attorney will use ANY theory he believes will improve his client's chances of success, including questioning the type of ammunition used.
NOW HERE'S THE IMPORTANT POINT - Just because the plaintiff attempts to make the type of ammunition used an issue in the case, doesn't mean that effort will be successful ! The judge and/or jury in a civil trial may decide that the type of ammunition used is a non-issue but that will not stop the plaintiff from trying to make that claim.
In a civil case, they can't take your freedom or life from you but they can damn sure take your money.
The standard in a civil case is preponderance of the evidence and that is a much lower standard than beyond a reasonable doubt.

The use of handloads in self defense may be a total non-issue in a civil case (I believe it is a non-issue but what I believe doesn't matter even a little) but that will not stop a diligent plaintiff's attorney from making that argument. The use of handloads vs. factory loads is a choice you get to make LONG before a potential deadly force situation occurs. Why give a potential plaintiff's attorney that extra card to play by using handloads? What do you have to gain by that decision?

[Lonegun1894]

MaryB, Supposedly that is the case in Texas too. Here is the catch, we pass a law, and then see if it stands up in court through a few "tests". So far, it has stood up, but I just hope it stays that way.

[dudel]

MaryB, Supposedly that is the case in Texas too. Here is the catch, we pass a law, and then see if it stands up in court through a few "tests". So far, it has stood up, but I just hope it stays that way.

So true. And guess who gets to pick up the tab on those "test" cases?

[Petrol & Powder]

You cannot stop someone else from suing you, even with a statute that bars certain types of legal actions.
The law may make some civil actions unsuccessful once they are started but no law can prevent that attempt.
Because some types of lawsuits are highly unlikely to succeed, plaintiffs may be reluctant to engage in those actions.

So, in summary: Saying that you cannot BE sued if the shooting is justified, is incorrect and pure folly.

The correct way to look at that is to say: If the shooting is justified it is UNLIKELY that a lawsuit will be SUCCESSFUL.


You can always be the target of a lawsuit. The key is whether or not that potential civil action will be successful.
No statute can stop them from trying although very few will try if it is clearly going to be unsuccessful under the statute.

[Texantothecore]

If a 12 gauge is legal for defense how is it that a pistol can be more lethal than a shotgun?

Pistols are on the low end of defensive weapons, not the top end.

[dubber123]

It is easy to determine if carry ammo has a powder charge...scales generally do not lie.

Y'all can carry what you like...I will continue to carry factory ammo.

Post #51 already beat me to it, but I can't help responding anyways.. Factory bullets and brass vary by more than enough to prevent weighing from catching any with no powder. Weighing certainly won't help catch a case with no primer flash hole as one poster had, nor will it catch a primer with compound but no anvil as another poster had a picture of a few months back.

All of this is prevented during loading by careful quality control by ME, not a machine running a million miles an hour. As I said, I never once in all my years reloading have had a round fail to function that I assembled. I like that track record when it comes to defending my behind.

[mallen]

Post #51 already beat me to it, but I can't help responding anyways.. Factory bullets and brass vary by more than enough to prevent weighing from catching any with no powder. Weighing certainly won't help catch a case with no primer flash hole as one poster had, nor will it catch a primer with compound but no anvil as another poster had a picture of a few months back.

All of this is prevented during loading by careful quality control by ME, not a machine running a million miles an hour. As I said, I never once in all my years reloading have had a round fail to function that I assembled. I like that track record when it comes to defending my behind.
like.....

[Lead Fred]

I was using my kills anything on the planet rounds, but recently Ive discovered paper patched soft lead boolits.

Soon as I make some up, they will be replaced the solids

[jonp]

99.999% reliability for what? Reloads or Factory ammo?
I'm not being a jerk, I just don't know how to take that.
Are you implying you believe reloads are more reliable or factory ammo is more reliable?
Either way, It is part of your decision making process.

Sorry if it was unclear. I meant factory ammo. I'm not criticizing anyone who uses reloads and more power to them I am just more comfortable using factory for self defense. As a side note, I guess I am one of the few who have never had a factory round malfunction. I have had several of my reloads do it.

[dudel]

All of this is prevented during loading by careful quality control by ME, not a machine running a million miles an hour. As I said, I never once in all my years reloading have had a round fail to function that I assembled. I like that track record when it comes to defending my behind.

Bet you need to work on malfunction clearing drills. :kidding:

All your years of reloading probably haven't produced as many rounds as one week of Federals production line. Statistically, your track records are about the same.

[mallen]

Sorry if it was unclear. I meant factory ammo. I'm not criticizing anyone who uses reloads and more power to them I am just more comfortable using factory for self defense. As a side note, I guess I am one of the few who have never had a factory round malfunction. I have had several of my reloads do it.

99.999% success rate, means that 180,000 factory rounds per year will fail. how many of these hundred and eighty thousand rounds are self defense rounds sitting on store shelves?

It sounds like you learn the way I do, doing, making mistakes, and learning from them. Once you get over the learning curve, you will never have a reload fail due to craftsmanship. I do not want to load one of those 180,000 rounds into my gun and it not fire when (God forbid) I need it to fire.

Although, I do need to buy a hollow point mold

[Blackwater]

You know, someone once said that we moderns often like to think we're smarter, richer and more powerful than we actually are. Can't remember who it was so can't assign credit, but I think that's too often true, and over-thinking this issue can lead to strict adherence to imaginary, rather than real, principles. Believe me, when the time comes, folks grab whatever is handy at the moment, and they ALWAYS happen in the twinkling of an eye. That's just the way predators work and arrange their predations. The tool is a loaded gun (loaded with SOMETHING), but the "weapon" is the mind that controls the response. Use whatever you feel is best. Very simple, and unarguable, though I just know someone is going to "prove" that last statement untrue. To my way of thinking, it's much ado about nothing. I will NEVER base my life or its protection on the basis of what ONCE happened somewhere in some big SMSA city. NEVER! T'wouldn't be prudent!

[JSnover]

No matter how long we beat this dead horse, there's always someone who didn't get their turn... If factory ammunition satisfies you, use it. If you sleep better with a magazine or cylinder full of of home brew, so be it. If you need to defend your use of handloads in court, tell the judge, "yer honor, them store-bought bullets is jest too deadly."

[garym1a2]

I trust factory ammo more than my reloads for self defense also. while I do a good job I have seen case failures, squib loads and rounds not feed with my stuff.
With other handloaders I seen much more issues.[
For SD I just have a couple boxes of God dots in 40 and 45. Test fired them and keep a couple mags around with each.
QUOTE=jonp;2949187]Sorry if it was unclear. I meant factory ammo. I'm not criticizing anyone who uses reloads and more power to them I am just more comfortable using factory for self defense. As a side note, I guess I am one of the few who have never had a factory round malfunction. I have had several of my reloads do it.[/QUOTE]

[BruceB]

Posts #97, #98 and #99 above represent the truth of the matter.

If percentages matter (apparently they do, to some people) consider this:

99.99% of all police organizations in the WORLD, and

99.99% of military organizations in the WORLD....

... are "getting by" just fine with factory ammo. Let it be noted that these are the groups which operate at the pointy end of "social situations" with the certainty that a goodly amount of their shooting will be for real, and the probability of having to shoot in deadly-force scenarios is very high.

(I was going to say "all", or "100%" of these organizations shoot factory stuff, but just KNEW that someone would pick at that particular nit.)

Also, how do you handload-users KNOW that any particular primer is actually going to fire when needed? That's a "factory" component, too.

[1Shirt]

BruceB and the three before him are spot on accurate in logic!
1Shirt

[trixter]

I use this tool and range lead to make my self defense loads. So far they have performed flawlessly. The cost is small, primers and powder and time.

http://www.mp-molds.com/images/452-640_HP_HOLLOW_POINT4_cav_Brass_1_small.jpg

[jmort]

^ This is perfect. Nice
I use something similar.

[jonp]

I use this tool and range lead to make my self defense loads. So far they have performed flawlessly. The cost is small, primers and powder and time.

http://www.mp-molds.com/images/452-640_HP_HOLLOW_POINT4_cav_Brass_1_small.jpg

Throwing the flag on this one. That mold is way too clean.....:castmine:

[mallen]

Posts #97, #98 and #99 above represent the truth of the matter.

If percentages matter (apparently they do, to some people) consider this:

99.99% of all police organizations in the WORLD, and

99.99% of military organizations in the WORLD....

... are "getting by" just fine with factory ammo. Let it be noted that these are the groups which operate at the pointy end of "social situations" with the certainty that a goodly amount of their shooting will be for real, and the probability of having to shoot in deadly-force scenarios is very high.

(I was going to say "all", or "100%" of these organizations shoot factory stuff, but just KNEW that someone would pick at that particular nit.)

Also, how do you handload-users KNOW that any particular primer is actually going to fire when needed? That's a "factory" component, too.

I'm not so sure they are "just fine". There is a reason that departments all require the exact same gun, with the exact same ammo. when there are malfunctions with the ammo, they have to have interchangeable mags they can retrieve from other officers. This is how it was stated to me by the sheriff. It has happened enough that it was a concern for nearly every department out there.

[Beagle333]

I always carry a revolver. If one of my Black Talons gives me a FTF, I'll just give the BG the other 5. :D

[GhostHawk]

If I truly need a defense round then someone is in my house. So whatever is handy that will get me to my shotgun is fine.

For my shotgun, yes I use a mix of factory loads and some reloaded trap loads.

7 &1/2 shot is perfect IMO for not going through 2-3 walls and killing someone I don't mean to.

Once they are out my front door they are the Police Dept's problem not mine.

I will say that if someone is silly enough to try to so something when I'm in my basement reloading area I feel very very sorry for them.
The SKS is loaded, and right next to me, with the bolt back. 10 handloads with 185 grain boolits in the Mag waiting patiently. Being as I am below ground level I don't worry much about the guy next door. 10 stripper clips loaded and ready right below the SKS. If that isn't enough, well then it is WWIII and the rules of engagement change.

I don't do a lot of pistol, or reload for pistol, however I expect that I will be in the future. But for now my pistol ammo is all factory. I don't CC, in fact I don't get out much.

Just want to be left alone really.

[Bullshop Junior]

Must we really go down this road again?

[mallen]

hey, its my first time.....

[Bullshop Junior]

If something needs shot, shoot it. In the heat of the moment, all that matters is that the threat dies. I killed a hog with a 1911 45 and HP. Best choice? No. But its what I had in my hand.

[Spector]

If you guys want to buy me my ammunition then I'll be glad to carry and practice using factory rounds, just like all those police departments around this nation and the globe. If you're really generous I'd like steak most every day as well and organically grown vegetables.

What I'm saying is when someone else is footing the bill strange rules develop that encourage, or rather demand that others keep paying the bill. I have carried 230 grain Federal Hyda-Shok ammo for about 20 years now. Why? I listened to the self-proclaimed experts who say it is smart from a legal standpoint and they did open up well in my tests compared to other brands. They always looked impressive in the shooting results gathered by Marshall & Sanow.

That is about to change though. Still nothing wrong with Hydra-Shoks, but I think I can do as well with cast, at a lower cost and I won't be cleaning gilding metal from my barrel anymore.

I'm not an expert by any means, but in the years I've reloaded thousands of rounds I've had loads without powder twice and some primers I failed to seat properly leading to misfires. These were all just in practice. Coincidentally though, during that same time, I've helped others drive factory loaded bullets from their barrels more times than that.

That's my non-expert thoughts on the matter. Big and slow. I guess I'm sort of a Fackler kind of guy. I'm sort of an old guy now so if I make a bad mistake in a self-defense situation and lose it won't be as tragic as if some young fellow with kids makes the same mistake.

Still I remember those factory loaded bullets I've had to drive out of other people's barrels. Bet all my hand loaded self-defense ammo has powder and properly seated powder coated boolits.....and I'm willing to bet my life that they'll all go bang. Big and slow. Martin would be proud of me I think........Mike

[dubber123]

Bet you need to work on malfunction clearing drills. :kidding:

All your years of reloading probably haven't produced as many rounds as one week of Federals production line. Statistically, your track records are about the same.

I carry one of those antiquated revolvers. My malfunction clearing drill consists of pulling the trigger again. :)

[Lonegun1894]

Dubber,
That just isn't complicated enough. Can't you complicate things a bit so you fit in better with the mall ninjas at my range?

[dubber123]

Dubber,
That just isn't complicated enough. Can't you complicate things a bit so you fit in better with the mall ninjas at my range?

I'm sorry I'm such a throwback. My carry guns don't even have bolt on lasers, or flashlights, or bayonets. Someday I'll be cool enough. Maybe.

[mallen]

I thought about getting a light. Some of those could about blind you. Problem is that if you are pulling your weapon, its time to shoot. So that kinda ngates the need
For a light.

[harley45]

After training more than just a few new cop recruits over the years with lights mounted to guns I have really come to see the value in a separate hand held light!

[JSnover]

I thought about getting a light. Some of those could about blind you. Problem is that if you are pulling your weapon, its time to shoot. So that kinda ngates the need
For a light.
Great, now you'll have something else to explain to the jury; why you needed a 2,000 lumen flashlight when a candle might have been sufficient...

[mallen]

Great, now you'll have something else to explain to the jury; why you needed a 2,000 lumen flashlight when a candle might have been sufficient...
hehe, made me laugh.

[FLHTC]

The prosecutor can make it look like ANY ammo choice is the most evil thing ever.

Reloads = Super killer custom rounds.

Hunting rounds = You want to hunt people.

Same as local PD = You wanna play cops and dead guys.

Target rounds = So people are just targets to you?

Defending your actions is your real concern. Your ammo choice is a non-issue.

LOL...too much tv

[FLHTC]

from what others here have said, there arnt any
But as with anything else, beginnings are with a first. Would you like to be one? I can't imagine the legal expense, defending myself in a shooting case and for that, I'd rather not give the prosecution anything to chew on.

[FLHTC]

Not to mention it will probably take 1-3 years to get through the civil case and through discovery both sides are going to learn your an avid shooter and reloader. It seemed to boil down to which side can win the most jurors. Or the Pesos

[jmort]

Again, look what happened to the late Harold Fish. He used factory hollow-point 10 mm ammunition, was convicted and had to take up an appeal to get his felony conviction overturned. The proposition that using your hand-loaded ammunition is more risky is conjecture as opposed to the reality of using 10 mm hollow-point ammunition. We know for sure that using factory 10 mm hollow-point ammunition can be used against you. I never hear the fearful saying anything about hollow-points or 10 mm handguns which is reality as opposed to the unicorn of hand loaded ammunition.

[mallen]

Again, look what happened to the late Harold Fish. He used factory hollow-point 10 mm ammunition, was convicted and had to take up an appeal to get his felony conviction overturned. The proposition that using your hand-loaded ammunition is more risky is conjecture as opposed to the reality of using 10 mm hollow-point ammunition. We know for sure that using factory 10 mm hollow-point ammunition can be used against you. I never hear the fearful saying anything about hollow-points or 10 mm handguns which is reality as opposed to the unicorn of hand loaded ammunition.

so, i shouldnt carry a 50 cal desert eagle?

[M-Tecs]

LOL...too much tv

How does stating "Defending your actions is your real concern. Your ammo choice is a non-issue." equal too much tv?????

[MaryB]

No it will be "his targeting laser flashed my eyes and now I have permanent loss of sight..."

[Bullshop Junior]

If i pull a gun, he wont be needing his eyes anymore.

[FLHTC]

How does stating "Defending your actions is your real concern. Your ammo choice is a non-issue." equal too much tv?????

Your attorney will be defending your actions at $250 an hour, after he spent dozens of hours preparing your case and hopefully, within the first three days of testimony. So much for your house being paid for. Now what is your real concern? :popcorn:

[jonp]

? Staying alive. I cant say im going to live my life examining everything i do in the light of "i might get sued". If i did i would never drive a car let alone put 3,000,000 miles under the wheels of my semi.

This is the continuation of a silly arguement. If everyone is afraid of being sued for using a firearm in self defense then do not carry one or have one in your house. Those few seconds you spend deciding on if you are going to get sued if you defend yourself will get you killed

[Bonz]

I reload my carry ammo primarily due to cost. Every time that I go to the range, I shoot 50 - 100 rounds thru my carry gun and my carry ammo uses factory projectiles such as Hornady XTP, Speer GoldDot, etc. The only cast that I shoot in my carry guns are the "FBI Load" projectiles that I buy from Rock River.

[dudel]

? Staying alive. I cant say im going to live my life examining everything i do in the light of "i might get sued". If i did i would never drive a car let alone put 3,000,000 miles under the wheels of my semi.

Not worried about getting sued, expect that. Just trying to improve the odds. How many of those 3,000,000 miles would you drive drunk? Hopefully not many. Defending an accident while under the influence is more difficult than sober. Even if you were not at fault.

[mallen]

Self defense insurance helps with all the legal stuff

[mold maker]

In a self defense situation, I worry lots more about being alive, than sued. I carry a gun, same as I carry insurance. Both make aftermath more bearable for me and my family.

[Bagdadjoe]

If you happen to shoot someone in self defense, is it worse to use "civilian killer bullets" like the police use or "cop killer bullets"?? Just wondering. I say "civilian killer bullets" because, obviously, cops don't shoot cops with their guns...well, usually. It's all in the terminology, ain't it?

[jonp]

Not worried about getting sued, expect that. Just trying to improve the odds. How many of those 3,000,000 miles would you drive drunk? Hopefully not many. Defending an accident while under the influence is more difficult than sober. Even if you were not at fault.
Your argument makes no sense. Are you equating loading your own ammo to driving drunk? One is a crime and the other is not. Try again with a coherent response

[Blackwater]

Well, this thread has degenerated the way it always does, with each side trying to prove they're more "right," smarter, more judicious and morally superior to the other. There ARE good points on both sides, and whenever that happens, it'll always wind up being a very PERSONAL decision, and people make personal decisions every day, including rather serious ones, on the basis of "selected" data they favor, while ignoring the merits, whatever they may or may not be, on the other side. The word that applies here is "prejudice," meaning "pre-judging" YOUR decision on the basis of the things YOU consider most important to YOU. That's just as it should be. We are still, at least for a while longer it seems, FREE to make these decisions on whatever basis we wish to, whether it be sound or rational or not. We decide who we WANT to believe about the courts and the aftermath, yada, yada, yada. I'll always take the side of wanting the best chance of just being the one to testify, rather than being the deceased, and that is most definitely NOT an unreasonable position to take. I love me, want to see me come home whenever I leave, and will defend me with my life, if needs be. All other questions come AFTER that.

However, each of us must make our OWN PERSONAL DECISION as to what data we wish to weight most heavily, and take responsibility therefor when and if we have to test it out. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who disagrees with me. I may think it less than prudent, but I have no problem with me, because I'm quite content to let everyone make this kind of decision for whatever reasons THEY deem appropriate.

I am concerned, though, about how these type arguements, and that's what they are - NOT "debates" which can actually be "won" or "lost" on the basis of rationality and logic - but more whizzing contests that nobody ever "wins" or "loses." There simply IS NO pat answer here. We just make choices, and that's all there is to it. Do whatever you feel moved to do, and either way, you're not necessarily or provably "better," "smarter" or "more prudent" in doing so, no matter which way you decide to go.

I based my decision on pretty extensive knowledge of what various bullets do to various creatures at various velocitys, etc., etc., etc. If I go to the morgue rather than home, it won't be because I listened to the wrong person, or read the wrong article - it'll be because I didn't handle the situation well and effectively - maybe let the bad guy get too close before reacting, felll prey to a fake, or whatever. It won't matter a heck of a lot, whatever it was that caused ME to fail. My guns do what they do. I do what I do, and if it's not enough ...... well, that's bad, but it's just the way it is. Eternal vigilance really IS the price of freedom, but not many take that as seriously as it merits being taken either. So be it. I can't change a soul, or a mind, and that's the way it should be. The ones who fail go to the morgue, and the ones that succeed get to go home, and MAYBE, fight a legal battle. I can't change the last part, but I owe it to myself and my family to at least TRY to do my best to make it home, whatever may await me there. The world may be a mess, but we CAN keep our own actions "clean," and that's all I control, so that's all I care about. You're perfectly welcome to differ with me, and to do so for whatever reason you find merit in. I just hate to see this always wind up being an argument of one set of "facts" vs. a 2nd, contrasting set of "facts." With all the inconsistencies in our world today, the only accurate answer is "IT ALL DEPENDS," and that's not reassuring, but these arguments don't make that better one whit.

[mallen]

ill read that. but not till after i eat my nachos

[jmort]

That is funny

[dolang1]

I haven't paid that much attention to the debate because I made my decision about 7 pages ago. I've got a new hollow point mold coming and I'm looking for two more. I haven't been this excited about reloading and casting in years. I enjoy this site.

[ritepath]

I don't know about casting my own HP's or using solid lead for SD loads, but I did load a general purpose 1.050 XTP's using 5 grains of power pistol for my Shield and CZ p-09. Both guns had zero issues.

Now instead of shooting 10 or 15 rounds of SD ammo a year I can load 100 rounds (new brass and XTPs being the bulk of the cost) for the price of 40. That means I can toss 500 rounds downrange, and truly learn how my pistol preforms with SD ammo.

[Lonegun1894]

Very well said, Blackwater. We all make our choices, and we live or die by them. No matter the choice, I hope it works out well for us all.

[nylocmik]

So carry what your local PD"s carry, in caliber and bullet weight and type. Good for them, then it should be good for you?

[FLHTC]

? Staying alive. I cant say im going to live my life examining everything i do in the light of "i might get sued". If i did i would never drive a car let alone put 3,000,000 miles under the wheels of my semi.

This is the continuation of a silly arguement. If everyone is afraid of being sued for using a firearm in self defense then do not carry one or have one in your house. Those few seconds you spend deciding on if you are going to get sued if you defend yourself will get you killed

I couldn't agree more but a shooting trial would be specific to the act, not everything you do. With all the factory ammo available today, why is it necessary to reload a cylinder or magazine full of ammunition for your self defense weapon? Do you have a guarantee that the prosecutor wouldn't present that same argument to the jury? A box of factory ammunition for a self defense weapon at most, costs $30. A 15 round magazine will hold $10 worth. You are going to convince a jury that you reload to save that $10 when you are carrying a $500 gun? You are comparing the conscious decision to carry factory ammunition, to hesitating when confronted. You better hire a slick attorney. :popcorn:

[FergusonTO35]

My two cents: I use nothing but reloads in ALL my centerfire firearms. I do not like most factory centerfire ammo. Much of it is loaded too strong for my taste, I can't deal with too much recoil. Most of it does not use lead boolits. Even before I started pouring my own and joined Cast Boolits I discovered that all my firearms shoot boolits better than jacketed. Better accuracy, less powder required for the same velocity, less recoil. A flat point lead boolit of appropriate weight and velocity gives up nothing to a jacketed bullet for any application other than the really high velocity rifle rounds.

I am not at all sold on the idea that handgun rounds are useless without trendy $$$ defensive loads. I can see the logic where an expanding 9mm 124 grain bullet of good design and construction at 1050 fps would be preferable to an FMJ that just zips through. I cannot see the logic where a flimsy, light for caliber hollowpoint that has the BCE of a pillow would be superior to an FMJ or lead solid at the same velocity. Low pressure rounds such as .32 Auto, .380 Auto, and .38 Special just don't have the velocity to make an expanding bullet consistently effective yet that is exactly what we are told we must use, aberrations such as a 60 grain .32 Auto and 90 grain .38 Special.

My defensive handgun rounds all use hard lead flat point bullets and are thoroughly tested for accuracy and velocity. They consist of a 76 grain .32 Auto at 885 fps, a 160 grain .38 Special at 875 fps, and a 122 grain 9mm at 1,000 fps. As to arguments some might make that I am creating especially deadly ammo these are essentially nineteenth century bullets driven to average velocity.

[M-Tecs]

The reality is it has never been an issue except in some people's imagination.

[jmort]

Bottom line is that there is a myth espoused, like anthropomorphic global warming, with no evidence to support the claim or a single case where someone got in any trouble, criminal or civil, for using ammunition that they loaded for own use. Never ever. Yet I have never seen these same people warn against using hollow points or 10 mm handguns or "powerful" handguns because we know for sure that can get you in trouble. If you are scared use the exact gun/ammo use by the local LEOs but that means using hollow points which can for sure get you in trouble. What a bunch of nonsense.

[jonp]

The reality is it has never been an issue except in some people's imagination.

^^^^^^

[Blackwater]

Ferguson, I love your quote: " I am creating especially deadly ammo these are essentially nineteenth century bullets driven to average velocity." All sorts of things can happen today in our courts, and if worse ever comes to worst, I'll remember that, and make SURE my attorney is schooled on it, THOROUGHLY! Very apt and appropriate tidbit there! Yes, there CAN be all sorts of things happen in court in our harem scarem "system" we have now. It's just a crying shame that so few know how to ENJOY a good fight, whether it's afield, in the streets, OR in court today. Like I said, if you ever go to court, take it VERY seriously, and don't be afraid to fight for the Truth, because some shyster type lawyer MAY actually try to use absolute **** to sway a jury that, unfortunately, may tend to the emotional battle rather than the simple facts of a case, like they used to. I'm not Methusela, but I'm old enough to remember when juries were made up of community leaders and good, solid citizens that were concerned with FACTS, rather than emotional pleas. Today, BECAUSE GOOD MEN WON'T SERVE ON A JURY, we have what we have now, and it ain't good .... BUT, PRINCIPLES are what has always saved mankind, collectively and individually, and when wronged with a stupid lawsuit, one STILL needs to be prepared to defend one's self to the max. It's JUST as important to be willing and ABLE to defend one's self in court, IF it ever comes to that, as it is to be prepared and ABLE to defend one's self in the streets. Old timers, our forebears never expected the world to be "right," but they WERE willing and usually able to handle the wrongdoings of those about who would have tried to undo all they had so laboriously tried to achieve in life. Stupid, unknowing, emotionally based people on a jury may even require an appeal, where cases are reviewed by appellate judges who are more likely to use logic in their decisions. It's just the cost of freedom, and it'll always be that way. It's always BEEN that way, so why would we expect anything different now? We are NOT nobler or better or smarter than we were 200+ years ago when this country was founded, and in fact, a pretty darn good case could be made that we've regressed very substantially, what with so many EXPECTING things to go like they THINK they should, rather than the way they've always been. Foolishness is foolishness, whenever and wherever it's found, and we are CERTAINLY not immune today from such things just because science and technology have progressed. We haven't. We're the same old fallible creatures we've always been, and we are CERTAINLY not "smarter." Just look around at all the people who say and do and think foolish things, like expecting Paradise to exist here on earth today, yesterday or tomorrow! This is the height of foolishness, but ... unfortunately, that's a very human trait. We all WANT things to go well, but EXPECTING things to not go wrong is just plain unrealistic, and being unrealistic can and sooner or later WILL cost us, both individually and collectively.

We do what we do. It's the OTHER guy's choice what he does, and to expect him to behave as we WANT him to is utter nonsense, and a fact we'll be dealing with as long as mankind exists upon the earth. Just look around. Examples of this Truth abound today, and always will.

Shoot what you want or what you HAVE. The rest is up to forces we cannot EVER control, and there is NO way to prepare for others' stupidity and wrongfulness. That's just another factor we need to be mentally and otherwise prepared to deal with. And .... that'll never change, either. It's just life on this mortal plane.

[mallen]

I disagree with your first sentence blackwater (i finally finished my nachos, i like taking time and enjoying my nachos)

[fouronesix]

"Do you make your own defense rounds?"
Nope. As good as I am at making high quality reloads, I always have and always will use regular factory ammo for self defense. As to filling up a page with justification for that choice? Nope. Don't need to do that either.

Those type questions are usually a kind of loaded "fishing" expedition. Responses agreeing with the pre-determined conclusion are welcomed while responses disagreeing with the pre-determined conclusion are ignored or debated.

[cswpsi]

I don't know about casting my own HP's or using solid lead for SD loads, but I did load a general purpose 1.050 XTP's using 5 grains of power pistol for my Shield and CZ p-09. Both guns had zero issues.

Now instead of shooting 10 or 15 rounds of SD ammo a year I can load 100 rounds (new brass and XTPs being the bulk of the cost) for the price of 40. That means I can toss 500 rounds downrange, and truly learn how my pistol preforms with SD ammo.

ritepath, you can save even more if Hornady makes a HAP bullet in an equivalent weight as the XTPs you're loading. Just a thought. [emoji362]

[Good Cheer]

Home made? You bet.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/mysterymetal_zpsb27efe0f.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/mysterymetal_zpsb27efe0f.jpg.html)

[FLHTC]

My two cents: I use nothing but reloads in ALL my centerfire firearms. I do not like most factory centerfire ammo. Much of it is loaded too strong for my taste, I can't deal with too much recoil. Most of it does not use lead boolits. Even before I started pouring my own and joined Cast Boolits I discovered that all my firearms shoot boolits better than jacketed. Better accuracy, less powder required for the same velocity, less recoil. A flat point lead boolit of appropriate weight and velocity gives up nothing to a jacketed bullet for any application other than the really high velocity rifle rounds.

I am not at all sold on the idea that handgun rounds are useless without trendy $$$ defensive loads. I can see the logic where an expanding 9mm 124 grain bullet of good design and construction at 1050 fps would be preferable to an FMJ that just zips through. I cannot see the logic where a flimsy, light for caliber hollowpoint that has the BCE of a pillow would be superior to an FMJ or lead solid at the same velocity. Low pressure rounds such as .32 Auto, .380 Auto, and .38 Special just don't have the velocity to make an expanding bullet consistently effective yet that is exactly what we are told we must use, aberrations such as a 60 grain .32 Auto and 90 grain .38 Special.

My defensive handgun rounds all use hard lead flat point bullets and are thoroughly tested for accuracy and velocity. They consist of a 76 grain .32 Auto at 885 fps, a 160 grain .38 Special at 875 fps, and a 122 grain 9mm at 1,000 fps. As to arguments some might make that I am creating especially deadly ammo these are essentially nineteenth century bullets driven to average velocity.
This is why this argument and many other on this forum fail. I can't imagine anything more ridiculous than to compare a light hollow point to a pillow. By your own admissions, you are crafting a solid lead projectile, which you claim has superior performance over a light for caliber, hollow point. Can this safely be interpreted as you not being satisfied with the lethal performance of factory ammunition? Wouldn't this seem as though you weren't going to be satisfied with merely stopping your assailant and that you had crafted your own ammunition in order to kill him?

[mallen]

"Do you make your own defense rounds?"


Nope. As good as I am at making high quality reloads, I always have and always will use regular factory ammo for self defense. As to filling up a page with justification for that choice? Nope. Don't need to do that either.

Those type questions are usually a kind of loaded "fishing" expedition. Responses agreeing with the pre-determined conclusion are welcomed while responses disagreeing with the pre-determined conclusion are ignored or debated.

I disagree with this one also, as before this conversation, I would have tried to bare the cost of enough factory made ammo to practice with, but no have chosen to use my own reloads. the ones i spend extra time on of course.

[MaryB]

You need to practice with your defense rounds so that $30 just turned into $500 a year while cast bullet reloads would be a fraction of that


I couldn't agree more but a shooting trial would be specific to the act, not everything you do. With all the factory ammo available today, why is it necessary to reload a cylinder or magazine full of ammunition for your self defense weapon? Do you have a guarantee that the prosecutor wouldn't present that same argument to the jury? A box of factory ammunition for a self defense weapon at most, costs $30. A 15 round magazine will hold $10 worth. You are going to convince a jury that you reload to save that $10 when you are carrying a $500 gun? You are comparing the conscious decision to carry factory ammunition, to hesitating when confronted. You better hire a slick attorney. :popcorn:

[Digital Dan]

Well, OK then. Let us eschew firearms and use swords, pikes, daggers or perhaps a mace, hammer or short dagger. Or a dog? Just a suggestion...

[mallen]

what is that in response to?

[Digital Dan]

This thread in general. The premise of the debate specifically.

[mallen]

erm. cause you would get shot?

[Digital Dan]

Don't know what you mean by that.

If someone wishes to defend themselves with deadly force then they should do so with the very best skills and equipment available. Why would anyone wish to give even minor advantage to someone bent on mayhem?

The concerns expressed about lawyers and such are without merit. Explain the concept wherein a dead bad guy shot with an "exotic" bullet will curry special concern as compared to another bad guy who just interfered with the lawful flight of a load of buckshot. Please. The argument, if any is specious at best and I'm being generous.

[mallen]

i mean, using a 2.5' sword, against a 10' away bullet, well end the person with the sword being shot.

[prs]

Well, your Honor, its like this here; if'n I gotta put a fellow human bean down, I wants t' do it right quick. Wouldna want the poor bastage to suffer.

prs

[Digital Dan]

i mean, using a 2.5' sword, against a 10' away bullet, well end the person with the sword being shot.

My reference to medieval weapons somewhat tongue in cheek. OTOH they are brutal beyond the pale. Visibly more so than bullets.

[jonp]

You need to practice with your defense rounds so that $30 just turned into $500 a year while cast bullet reloads would be a fraction of that

True but my life is worth $500. Most spend that buying coffee at the quick mart every morning

[MaryB]

Not all of us, $500 is dang near half of what I live on a month so I shoot and use cast, I reclaim loose lead every range trip along with scrounging wheel weights.

[NavyVet1959]

The more I read the responses to this, the more I believe in the the saying, "if they're worth shooting, then their body is worth disposing of". We can't just leave rotting corpses around, can we?

[Lonegun1894]

1959,
You're very right, Sir. Wouldn't be sanitary, and we're respectable folks here afterall.

Having said that though, at least around here, it'd be considered tampering with evidence, so I won't be moving anything cause that is one thing I don't want to have to explain. If this was still the 1800s with no LE and not much explaining, it would be a different story.

[JSnover]

You need to practice with your defense rounds so that $30 just turned into $500 a year while cast bullet reloads would be a fraction of that
Not necessarily. If you like RemChester Super XXX Gold but can't buy the components to roll your own, it's not hard to develop a load that shoots to the same point of impact. That way you can keep the top shelf zombie-killin' fancy stuff in the bedroom for defense and practice all you want with bargain basement cast boolits.

[Digital Dan]

Dan's Disposal Service has reasonable rates......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Funnies/Gatoredited_zpsfcccffb4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Funnies/Gatoredited_zpsfcccffb4.jpg.html)

[NavyVet1959]

Not necessarily. If you like RemChester Super XXX Gold but can't buy the components to roll your own, it's not hard to develop a load that shoots to the same point of impact. That way you can keep the top shelf zombie-killin' fancy stuff in the bedroom for defense and practice all you want with bargain basement cast boolits.

From a practical standpoint, at typical self-defense distances, it really does not matter what load you're using since the bullet just does not have enough distance to drop any appreciable distance. Sure, if you practice with powder-puff loads and carry full power loads, your time to reacquire the sight picture and subsequent shots might be off a bit, but that should just give you incentive to make the first shot count. :)

[Lonegun1894]

Dan, after making that offer in open forum, I hope you have more "employees", cause I can see your business expanding in the near future.

[M-Tecs]

Dan's Disposal Service has reasonable rates......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Funnies/Gatoredited_zpsfcccffb4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Funnies/Gatoredited_zpsfcccffb4.jpg.html)


What's your shipping address????? Volume Discounts????? Willing to do pickups????

[mallen]

dan hits the nsa list in 3....2....1....

[Digital Dan]

I so askeerd of NSA...

No pick ups, flat rate, extra in winter. Lizards get retarded in cool weather. Sharks move offshore. Cost of fuel and all that. My complaint department is open 24/7, staffed by 2 rattlers and a red head.

[M-Tecs]

staffed by 2 rattlers and a red head. Which is more dangerous?

[mallen]

I was going to ask if she was hot, but yea, thats a good question too.

[Digital Dan]

Which is more dangerous?

I dunno, but you might ask the rattlers.

I forgot to tell you where to make drop offs, sorry. There's a little town north of me called Otter Creek. I don't live there, but it's a bit northwest of Chatmire, or pretty much due north of Red Level. There's a Kangaroo at the intersection in the middle of that triangle, right next to the local PD. Just stop in there and ask for me, they all know me and Albert. We help the local school with training for track with special emphasis on sprints.

[Lonegun1894]

I think I'd feel safer tangling with the two rattlers....

[62chevy]

I think I'd feel safer tangling with the two rattlers....

Yup when it's cold out side the rattlers go into a deep sleep, the red head is just getting started.