+P rated .44 Spl. ... wait, what?

[Cowboy_Dan]

I was looking over the paperwork that came with my ccw (Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Spl), and I noticed it said that it was +P rated. Maybe it's just me, but I have never even heard of .44 Spl+P, nor have I seen data for such a round in my manuals (Lyman, Lyman Cast, Lee).

So, what do they mean? Is it maybe just idle salesmanship? I don't think it is wise to use .44 Mag data in a .44 Spl case (Elmer Keith style) in it, but I have been too conservative before. Although, it could mean that I shouldn't worry about feeding it a steady diet of hot loads if that's what it likes.

[jonp]

Salesmanship. I do not think SAAMI has a listing for 44 Spl +P ammo. It seems to me to just be a stamping that Charter Arms is putting on the gun to show that it is a strong design.

A +P 44sp is what is commonly referred to as a 44Mag. If you want that type of power buy one and shoot both 44sp and 44Mag with peace of mind that the gun will not blow up on you.

[Lefty Red]

Usually a +P rating means its for a modern weapon and didn't want some loads for older, weaker weapons with inferior metal.
Just like a +P 38 Special is not a 357 Magnum, neither is a 44 Special rated for +P loadings a 44 Magnum.
Jerry

[Cowboy_Dan]

That's what I was thinking, .44 Mag data is a bad idea, but it should eat everythin up to .44 Spl max loads just fine. I wonder if anyone makes self defense loads and calls them +P. I've seen it done as .45 Colt +P+. At about $10 a sixpack, it was way too steep to even consider trying out (different gun, of course).

[Blackwater]

The Special was originally loaded to pretty much duplicate the older .44 Russian ballistics, and factory loads often didn't break 700 fps. with the 246 gr. RN lead bullet. Then along came Elmer Keith and others, and turned it into a hell bender that eventually gave birth to the .44 mag. Keith's old load of 7.5 gr. Unique with the 250 gr. bullet exceeds SAAMI pressure levels a bit, and I'm betting that's what they're trying to get across. In that light gun, most will find SAAMI loads plenty, though, but it's nice of them to let us know that it CAN, if we can, take a bit more than SAAMI dictates. Some of them are really good, decent guns. I know a deputy that's carried one for many years, but he uses straight factories, and is leery of those "home made bullets." I offered to load some for him once, but he made it clear he thought the factory stuff was reliable, but he wasn't sure about me. I dodged another bullet, I guess. ;6)

[shoot-n-lead]

It may be safe with the "+P or heavier special loads" but I sure don't want to shoot any of them in it. OUCH!

[TheGameMaster]

Like others have already stated, "+P" and "+P+" rated cartridges are factory rounds loaded to a higher than SAMMI and CIP standards. Someone (I think it was Guns & Ammo or American Handgunner, I can't remember who) did some pressure testing of several popular self defense loads in all of the more popular calibers. The bottom line was that "+P" were loaded to around 9% above SAMMI pressure. And "+P+" were loaded to around 15%. Some of the really hot stuff, Buffalo Bore 45 ACP +P+, was loaded to 16% higher then max, with a warning label telling you not to use it in older guns. CIP requires that a firearm be able to fire a round that is loaded to 30% higher pressure than the caliber allows in order for it to be sold in Europe. So you can load the .44 Special up to 9% higher than normal pressure, and it will be fine. Charter is a great company. I have a .327 Federal Magnum (I know, I'm weird). The transfer bar broke in it, and I sent it in, it was back in 8 days, all fixed up, re-sighted in for me, and ready for shooting.

Rodney

[oger]

Be real careful with the Bulldog. I pretty well ruined a real nice older one with 25 rounds of 215 cast over 7.5 gr of unique.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't think SAAMI lists 44Spl +P specs., so I'm not sure what Charter Arms is talking about. I will say that standard pressure 44 Special loads are pathetic when compared to what the cartridge can do in even a moderately strong gun. Or in other words, factory loadings for 44 Special are very weak for modern guns.
That being said, The Bulldog is an adequate gun for all factory 44 Special loads but I wouldn't put it in the same class as a S&W N-frame or Ruger Redhawk DA revolver. For use in a Bulldog I would stick with factory ammo or accepted 44 Special loadings.

[theleo]

Hand Loader did an article at one point in regards to loading the 44 special at three different pressure levels. http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

[Larry Gibson]

Skeeter Skelton" classic 44 SPL load (240 - 250 gr cast over 7.5 gr Unique) is considered a +P or maybe even a +P+ load. Last I pressure tested that load with a 240 gr (#2 Alloy) TL430-240-SWC it averaged 22,500 psi(M43). Most factory 44 SPL runs from 9,000 - 14,000 psi. My factory duplication load of 5 gr Bullseye under the same Lee bullet runs 800 fps +/- out of 4" revolvers at 14,600 psi.

Larry Gibson

[Bagdadjoe]

Brian Pearce article on 44 Special
"The second category (22,000 psi) includes the Colt Single Action Army, New Frontier SAA, Charter Arms Bull Dog
and United States Fire-Arms SAA-pattern revolvers that are U.S. manufactured"

220 Lyman 429215 GC Unique 8.5 1,114 is one load listed, there are several others. I use Herco under the same bullet in my Bulldog and it is accurate. It's my carry load. Not unpleasant to shoot with the Pachmayr gripped Doggy. Wood grips..not as much fun. One inch dots in the photo..front sight was regulated and gun was fire lapped.116182



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[Petrol & Powder]

I think we can agree that the SAAMI specifications for 44 Special are very much on the conservative side. I believe that it is a common practice to load 44 Spl. to higher levels [within reasonable and generally accepted levels] and it is safe to do so when the rounds are fired in good quality guns. The Brian Pearce article quoted above makes a distinction of three separate categories of 44 Special loads with a 4th category that is basically 44 mag levels in a 44 spl. case. That same article suggests that the Bulldog can safely handle loads that are slightly above factory SAAMI specs and I totally agree that the Bulldog can safely handle those moderate increases in pressure.
What I have a problem with is the apparent assertion by Charter Arms that their Bulldog model is rated for 44 Special +P when there is no SAAMI designation for a 44 Special +P. I think Charter Arms wants to imply that their gun is strong enough to handle hotter than factory spec rounds (and it clearly can) but I don't like them creating an undefined category.

What does 44 Special +P actually mean to Charter Arms? - 20,000 psi?, 22,000 psi? , 25,000 psi?, anything you want as long as you don't ask them to fix it?

I'm not bashing the gun. I think the Bulldog is reasonably strong and safe. I'm not real keen on Charter Arms making up a nebulous standard.

[MT Gianni]

The same frame is used for the 327 Federal @ 42,500 psi. I think they are reasonably stating 22,000 but you will not see it in print.

[Echo]

Many years ago I reloaded for a friend who had (among other pistols) a Bulldog. I loaded straight 44 Spl loads - and she named the gun 'Try Again!'. That little guy bucks like - well...

[Bagdadjoe]

Yeah, saying "+P" without a standard is ill conceived. Leaves the door open for considerable error.

[MT Chambers]

Elmer's load for the .44 spl. in the old triple lock was 17.5 grs. 2400 with his SWC, I know because, hell, I was there.

[Matt_G]

The article linked above is on my server.
Lot's more on the 44 Special there.
Link in my sig...

[Petrol & Powder]

Yeah, saying "+P" without a standard is ill conceived. Leaves the door open for considerable error.

precisely.

The Bulldog is plenty strong and can safely be used with moderately warmer loads than factory 44 Special. I don't think it's in the same category as say, a Ruger Super Redhawk.

Charter Arms saying that it is rated for +P 44 Special when there is no such standard - leaves a lot of wiggle room.

[kerreckt]

+P is a marketing ploy. All it means is that it can handle the pressures at the higher end of the SAAMI spec. for that particular caliber. So, in this case, it can handle the pressures at the higher end of the current SAAMI for .44spl. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 44 MAG.

[Petrol & Powder]

+P is a marketing ploy. All it means is that it can handle the pressures at the higher end of the SAAMI spec. for that particular caliber. So, in this case, it can handle the pressures at the higher end of the current SAAMI for .44spl. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 44 MAG.

Nobody is claiming that the Bulldog is chambered for a 44 Magnum.
Any gun in good condition that is rated for 44 Special should be able to safely fire ANY 44 Special cartridge that is within the SAAMI specifications for 44 Special. It doesn't matter if the cartridge is loaded near the upper limits of the specifications or the lower limits of the specifications as long as it is WITHIN the specifications.
Of course it can handle the pressures at the higher end of the SAAMI specification range for 44 Special because even the higher end of the specs' are still WITHIN the specs.
Marking it +P doesn't mean a damn thing when there is no such +P standard for 44 Special.

[kerreckt]

I can read. I see that no one is saying that the Bulldog is chambered for 44 magnum. I also, see where the .44mag was brought into this conversation. It does not belong in this conversation. That is my point. There was a time when the SAAMI spec's did not include any +P designations. They now do. 9mm and .38spl. have +P listings. There was a time when regular ammo was loaded hotter than it is, today. Is this a way of "heading off'' litigation?

[waksupi]

That means you CAN shoot the + loads. They don't mention it will wear the firearm at a greatly accelerated pace.

[Shaky]

Buffalo Bore advised against using any of their 44 spl ammo in the charter. Except their full wad cutter load. Maybe charter has beefed them up a bit?

[Duster340]

I too was wondering about the +p rating when I picked up my Bulldog. This thread got me thinking. So I found:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-MAG44D10 .44 Special +P MagSafe Defender Load


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=271 quote below from BB:
"This ammunition is for use in ALL 44 SPL and 44 MAG. firearms except the Charter Arms Bull Dog. No, this ammo won't blow up your Bull Dog, but if you shoot more than a few hundred rounds of this ammo in a Bull Dog, the gun will get looser than it already was, will go out of "time" and stop working".