FIrst time casting

[stanford]

Hi everyone, I just joined the board the other day and I have a few questions about casting lead. I just got back into reloading and decided to cast this time because I didn't do it two decades ago when I was shooting every weekend. My knowledge on casting is only on the many, many guides and videos I have seen. Yet there are still questions in my understanding of certain things.

My first challenge is this. When you buy/beg/borrow your lead and you put them into your melting pot then cast them into the calibers you desire, how do you know what to add into the lead or if you even need to add anything into the lead for hardness. This is the only challenge I have right now because I have never done it before.

I just purchased some lead from one of the folks here, once my lead arrives what is the process in the pot to actually casting the bullet?

1. Do I just cast a few bullets that I want then air cool some and water cool some?
2. Then test the hardness a few days later, then a week later to check the BHN?
3. If the BHN is not at the desired level add whatever is needed to made the lead harder then repeat my test?

I may be going about this all wrong and maybe I am trying to be too technical. I just don't want to start off learning all the wrong things first.

If one of you folks bought lead from some random dude, once the lead arrives what is your process to get it from cast to finished product? If I can get a good answer to this the mystery would be solved for me. I think I mentioned this a couple times already in the post, I did this because in my experience of posting questions online, no matter how simple the question is someone always comes back and asks what are you trying to do.

Also, is there a chart for BHN hardness for whatever caliber you are going to shoot with?


Thanks everyone.

Stan

[Dusty Bannister]

Welcome to the Forum. There is a wealth of information here in the files, and the search feature is very beneficial. Last line will be answered first.

The Lyman cast bullet handbook will give you the alloy hardness or type of alloy used in developing their loads.

Next up "no matter how simple the question is someone always comes back and asks what are you trying to do".
Folks are not going to be able to offer guidance until you state your objective. You are not even hinting if this is for handgun or rifle, or caliber, all which may have very different requirements. So, what are you trying to do?

[1911KY]

I just recently started casting myself and I assure you that every question you have can be answered here with just a little searching.

Your first question was about purchasing and preparing lead for casting. This all depends on what type of lead you acquire. If you get clean ingots then you can drop those in the melting pot and start casting provided you are casting a low velocity caliber like 45 acp. If you are shooting high velocity, high pressure rifle rounds then you will need a harder alloy. There is a spreadsheet on the lead sub-forum:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators

This will give an estimate of the hardness you are producing if you blend alloys. You can probably find specific threads on whatever caliber you are looking to cast if you do a little digging.

If you get raw or un-smelted lead then you will need to smelt and flux it clean and pour your own ingots. You don't want to contaminate your melting pot with dirty lead.

Like Dusty said, the hardness is going to depend on what caliber you are casting for. I have been casting for 45 acp so the hardness really isn't an issue for me. I have been casting with range scrap ingots and they have been sufficiently hard for my purposes. I also powder coat my bullets so that makes them a little tougher.

[country gent]

I agree with the above read the luman casting Handbook mine is 4th edition. It has alot of information in it as to alloies and what they do how much and how to blend. I buy virgin metal to cast with now but have also smelted range lead down to clean ingots. Buying lead ingots do a rough hardness test on the ingots and it will give a rough idea of what you have and if its all the same. Unknown ingots I would also smelt blend into one mix and go from there, Fluxing several times to insure its well blended and clean. This gives you a atch of ingots all the same and consistent. The 2 biggest aloies are antimony and tin. Wheel wieghts are very popular also. pure lead is used for muzzle loaders and to softer other metals when needed. Linotype is very hard and yssually can be cut with pure or softer metals. Look at the stickies ad read all you can. As stated above what are you planing to cast for ? Rifle pistol, muzzleloaders? What are your goals requirements? Target shooting informal or formal, Hunting, or selfdefense? All this plays in what you want need to do.

[mdi]

In my opinion, BHN is over rated, especially for new casters. I cast for a few years before I got a hardness tester, and I had good, accurate bullets from a predominately wheel weight alloy. I'd suggest you put the hardness issue aside for now and concentrate on getting good, filled out, consistent bullets, that fit your gun. Same for water quenching, save that for later. Concentrate on the melt and mold temperatures, and your "style" (plus there's a lot more to learn; fluxing, mold maintenance, etc.).:mrgreen:

But, tin at about 2%-4% is said to improve fill-out and increase hardness a bit. Antimony will also harden lead, and I've used linotype to harden some pure lead. A good reference is Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (I prefer the 3rd Edition, but thee 4th will do). There's a whole chapter on alloying...

[Echo]

Inspect the boolits when you cut the sprue. The bases should be well filled out, and square. If they pass that test, then the rest of the boolit will probably be fine, too. And the way to get that fillout is to have a little Sn in the mix. Anything over 3% is wasted, as far as fillout is concerned.
So what are you casting/reloading for?

[jlchucker]

I agree with MDI. I've never owned a hardness tester, and have cast a lot of boolits using wheelweights, wheelweights mixed with pure lead, range lead, and also once in a while pure lead. The main two things that i've found is that the boolit must be filled out, and when you size them, make sure to size them to the right diameter for the gun you'll be shooting them out of. To determine that my boolits are well filled out, I not only visually inspect them, but weigh them up for uniformity. That, and use a good lube. I use White Label 50-50 lube for everything. I have no interest in hot-rodding for big velocities, but some that have been chrony'd have measured out in the 1900 fps neighborhood. Not all are loaded that hot. My main focus is a good group. Cast boolits, when properly made up and loaded to shoot where you aim, will give you plenty of satisfaction.

[runfiverun]

what the alloy you bought has in it will determine what you need to add to make it suitable for your purposes.
if it's range scrap a little tin [@ 1%] will give you a great handgun alloy.
if it's ww's and you are shooting 38 special or 45 acp cutting the alloy in half with soft lead and a little tin [0.5%] will work just fine.

if all you got is ww alloy, then that's what you got, just use it.
I mostly use ww alloy I doctor it up some and mix it into large batches, then when I cast with it I air cool the boolits for my pistol cartridges and water drop them for my rifles.
the first step is to make some boolits and find some powder to put under them.

[Forgetful]

I get decent fillout with 0.5% tin, but all my reloads are larger calibers. My .30 pours come out nice and shiny with full detail with the same alloy. Tin is much more difficult to source for cheap than lead so I wouldn't waste it. Any more than 1% tin would be a waste in my mind.

[243winxb]

Check a few cool bullets, as they dropped from the mould, for diameter & weight at the start. If to small in diameter, add linotype. The antimony will make them larger.


Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast f rom wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature. http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/88-bullet-moulds-charts

[bangerjim]

Don't overthink this hardness thing. That is old school. In the old days, everything was based upon Lyman #2.

Today FIT IS KING. Slug your barrels to see what you need to size to (normally 2 thou over).

Look at powder coating to minimize you worry about hardness. For target/plinking, anything in the 9-12 range is good to PC and shoot with absolutely ZERO leading. Sonic needs to be around 14 and GC'd.

1-2% Sn is all you really need for good fill-out. I have a ton of it and use ~2% all the time. More will start to lighten you boolits and is a total waste of alloy $$. Sb mainly hardens, Sn mainly improves fillout.

But again.........PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU ARE CASTING FOR! Makes a big difference in what we will tell you.

Use the alloy spreadsheet referenced above!

Pre-heat your mold to CASTING TEMP! You will get perfect drops almost from the 1st one.

Welcome to the madness.

bangerjim

[dragon813gt]

Read this: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Then read it again. If you have any questions at that point. Read that particular chapter one more time for good measure. You will have a very solid foundation to build off of after reading it.

[gwpercle]

For most cast boolit applications you don't need to water harden. Hardened boolits are hard to size and sizing works the surface, softening it back to just about where you started.
For years I used only clip on wheel weights ( had a free supply) . Now days my free supplier is gone , to stretch my WW I mix it with pure lead or range scrap 50 / 50. The softer alloy actually works better . Wish I had done that sooner. I'm reloading handgun and rifle ( 1600 fps) when you start pushing 1900 fps or more is when hard bullets are sometimes useful.
Gary

[stanford]

Thanks guys for all the responses. I have actually been searching through this forum for a few weeks now, I just happened to join the other day because there are a few things that has me confused. One of the responses asked what are you using to cast. Here is a scenario, since I have never casted before I don't trust what anyone is saying when it comes to their lead. I want to know for myself so I can be educated. What if someone sold you some lead and said that it was Lyman #2. When you cast the lead you find out that its pure lead very soft and not what you thought you bought.

I have seen many posts cautioning people to be aware of what they are buying (especially new people). I joined this board and decided to purchase from the members here, I ordered some lead from Sgtonory (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?30326-Sgtonory) I haven't received it yet because I just ordered it yesterday. Even though I am buying lead from some someone here I am putting myself in a situation of what if I found this lead on the street how do I know that it will work for plinking.

I want to cast in 9mm, 45 ACP, .380 and .308. I will be using all for the range, but I also want to make rounds for protection around the house. I ordered the Lee molds, they haven't come in yet. The 45 ACP mold will be a 255g mold, I want to cast in the same weight that I use when using FMJ. All the molds that I ordered are actually in the heaviest weight they have for my calibers.

Also, before I forget. This board is awesome, you guys are tremendously helpful from all the information and posts I have been reading for the last couple weeks. Extremely knowledgeable folks in here, that's why I joined.

One more thing. The reason I put the remark of someone always asks what are you trying to do is something I have been through so many times in the past. I do computer programming in c++, C# etc. in my spare time to write utilities etc. Sometimes I will ask a pretty simple question and the first response is always "what are you trying to do?" I have seen rookies ask questions like how do you calculate 2+2 in code. Now that is simple, when you get a response like what are you trying to do it makes you wonder about people sometimes.

[stanford]

[QUOTE=jlchucker;2927376] Cast boolits, when properly made up and loaded to shoot where you aim, will give you plenty of satisfaction./QUOTE]

Exactly what I want to happen as I am getting back on the range now..

[stanford]

Don't overthink this hardness thing. That is old school. In the old days, everything was based upon Lyman #2.

Today FIT IS KING. Slug your barrels to see what you need to size to (normally 2 thou over).

bangerjim

Is it still necessary to slug your barrel if you are using the lee sizing kit for your caliber? I am currently looking at some videos on slugging the barrel but I don't know if its still necessary if you will be using that kit to size the bullet.

[1911KY]

Is it still necessary to slug your barrel if you are using the lee sizing kit for your caliber? I am currently looking at some videos on slugging the barrel but I don't know if its still necessary if you will be using that kit to size the bullet.

You have to slug your barrel to know what diameter sizing die and bullet mold to buy! You want a bullet .001" or .002" bigger than your bore. Now if you already bought a bullet mold that is smaller, don't freak out. If you PC the bullets it will add thickness, you can just buy the appropriate sizing die and size them correctly.

All of my 45 barrels measure up around .451 so I use .452 bullet molds and sizing die. I PC my bullets as well and I have no leading issues so far.

[stanford]

These are the sizing dies I will be ordering.

Caliber Die

.308 .309
.38 .358
9mm, .380 .356
.45 acp .452

I looked at the diameter of all the molds on the lee website and made sure to get the same diameter sizing die for all the calibers. Bit I do see what you are saying, make sure and size first before I buy the molds. Man I thought a mold and sizing die for a 45 would work on any 45.





You have to slug your barrel to know what diameter sizing die and bullet mold to buy! You want a bullet .001" or .002" bigger than your bore. Now if you already bought a bullet mold that is smaller, don't freak out. If you PC the bullets it will add thickness, you can just buy the appropriate sizing die and size them correctly.

All of my 45 bores measure up around .451 so I use .452 bullet molds and sizing die. I PC my bullets as well and I have no leading issues so far.

[1911KY]

Each barrel is different, you really need to slug them. If you PC the bullets then you might get away with a smaller bullet but leading still may occur.

[1911KY]

Generally, 45 bullet diameters range from .451 to .454. Most barrel grooves will be .451 or .452.

[bangerjim]

Slug B4 you buy.

Or have some nice listings in the swap & sell section of this forum!

Every gun barrel can vary. What you have may/will be different than what I have. I have to size to 451 and use a Lee Factory Crimp Die for my 45ACP 1911's to get them to cycle. My 45LC's will shoot anything I can stuff in them!

Good luck on your learning curve. You are now at the bottom valley of a very satisfying and interesting mountain top of casting/loading your own. Reading is good......just doing it will teach you a lot.

banger

[dragon813gt]

You don't have to slug your barrels. I bought sizing dies in a lot of sizes and found what works best. I did slug my 9s because pistols are easy to do. They measured .356-.357. A good portion of 9s have oversized bores. All of my 357s work best w/ .359-.360. And every 30 cal is different. Don't be surprised if you have to buy more sizing dies.

[BruceB]

You don't have to slug your barrels.

I am 100% in agreement with this statement.

After many years of intensive casting and handloading, the KISS principle works for me.

ALL my semi-modern .30-caliber rifles shoot .311" bullets.... and they shoot them very well, thanks. My "fat thirties" like the .303 British, use .... guess what.... fat thirty-caliber bullets!

I've just commissioned a .316" sizing die from Buckshot to match the as-cast diameter of my NOE 316299 mould. I expect the results to be an improvement over the current .314 die that I'm using.

My three as-new .303 rifles eagerly await...

Sizing a couple thousandths above the "nominal" diameter of a given caliber works extremely well for me. .431 in .44, .359 in .38/.357, .311 in .308 etc etc.

This causes NO harm to anything, including functioning of any of my firearms. My results speak for themselves.

[stanford]

Thanks a lot guys I am 100% lost now. I am heading over to youtube and look for some videos on slugging.

What does PC mean? Dusty is helping me out but a lot of the terms are pretty new to me still.

Again gentlemen, thanks for confusing me, now I have to head back to the drawing board. I must say that the idea of shooting where you are pointing the gun is very intriguing. I will definitely slug everything I have.

[1911KY]

Sorry to make this confusing. Slugging is really easy and youtube has lots of videos. You are just driving a soft lead slug thru your barrel to get the pattern of the grooves and lands of your barrel. Once you have driven a soft lead slug thru the barrel you want to measure the slug from one side to the other on the raised sections which will be the grooves of the barrel. You want to order a bullet mould and sizing die that is .001" or .002" larger than your measurement. This ensures a tight fit of the bullet in your barrel to stop any pass by gases from leading your barrel.

PC is powder coating...do some reading in this section for more detail.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives

You have to lube your cast bullets before loading and shooting. There are many ways to do this, powder coating is just one of them.

[1911KY]

Before I started reloading I slugged my barrels to ensure I knew what size bullets I should buy. If you only loaded FMJ bullets then it isn't that big of a deal, as you don't get leading with FMJs. When shooting lead bullets you need to know what size bullets to use. You don't have to slug your barrels but odds are you will throw some cash down the drain trying to figure out what works best for your guns. It just makes your purchasing decisions easier to know your metrics before hand.

[1911KY]

Some good stuff can be found here:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/default.html

[454PB]

If you think too much, you're going to ruin the fun!

Stick with basics, concentrate on one cartridge/caliber at a time, and continue studying and learning as you go.

Most of us started with a pile of wheel weights, a melting pot, and one mould. I didn't even own a lubrisizer until I had fired over 1000 boolits cast in a single cavity mould and lubed with my fingers. None of this is learned quickly, but don't let it intimidate you, it's worth the effort.

[stanford]

Now I understand the reason for slugging the barrel, this makes a lot of sense. I always looked at it like a one size fits all scenario, but the leading and a good fit is the main reason.

You folks are tremendously helpful, thanks so much. Looks like I will be doing a lot of reading this weekend.




Before I started reloading I slugged my barrels to ensure I knew what size bullets I should buy. If you only loaded FMJ bullets then it isn't that big of a deal, as you don't get leading with FMJs. When shooting lead bullets you need to know what size bullets to use. You don't have to slug your barrels but odds are you will throw some cash down the drain trying to figure out what works best for your guns. It just makes your purchasing decisions easier to know your metrics before hand.

[mdi]

Well, I know it's exciting to start on a new hobby, and you want to know everything possible about it, but, slow down and as mentioned above, don't overthink the process. I'd suggest you start with one caliber. I'd say 45 ACP of the ones you mentioned, in a tried and true weight/size. After you slug the barrel of your 45 ACP buy a sizer die .002" larger than the groove diameter. Use micrometers to measure the slug and the bullets as the come from the mold. You have to have facts (actual measured dimensions) to size/fit bullets to your gun (well, you don't have to, you can guess at the dimensions and buy what ever dies you want, but if you want accurate non leading fun, you should.)

BTW is the 255 gr. mold you're looking at for a 45 ACP or 45 Colt? For new casters I'd sugggest a 230 gr. RN for their 45 ACP, once you are producing 90%-99% good bullets you can move on to another style/size/shape bullet.

Have you ordered your copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook yet?

[stanford]

It was pointed out to me that the 255 is for the colt and not the ACP, I will be sticking with the 230g. I do have the lyman cast handbook 3rd edition, it took a bit of searching but I did find it.

I slugged my two 45 ACP barrels this evening and the results were very different. I was so sure they were going to be the same.

Springfield 3" XD = .451
Springfield 4" XD = .449

I picked up some egg sinkers from academy when I got off from work, I had a hard time driving it into the SW 9mm I just had to give up on that one. Tomorrow I am going to get a butane torch and melt the sinker into an empty cartridge for the 45 and try again. I saw a video on that process and it makes sense, having the lead the same circular shape as the barrel seems to work better. I figure since I am slugging I may as well slug them all.

[bangerjim]

A lot of people including me shoot the 200 and 230 grain ONLY in the 45ACP's with excellent success. 45LC I shoot everything up to and including 300 gn. I totally prefer the LC guns to the ACP semi's! ACP's are very finicky (much like 9mm). LC's will shoot anything I stuff in them.

banger

[smoked turkey]

stanford I read through all the posts on this thread. All the information you got was good it seems to me. Even when some of the posters answered a bit differently. You will find that most of us here are knowledgeable about this game. Guess what all the different responses tell you? They tell you that there is more than one way to skin a cat! In other words there are some ways better than others but more than one way to get to the end of the process. I think the post on don't over think the process is a good one you should pay attention to. You can make a job out of it and miss some of the fun. You will find that in time you will develop your own dos and don'ts and ways that work for you and your equipment. In the end each of our guns are its own individual. As you have found out the barrels of 45s are the same only different. I think knowledge is power to take a shorter path to success. Since you have slugged your barrels you now know, in theory at least, what size your completed boolits should be for optimal accuracy based on the tried and true logic of sizing one or two thousand over groove diameter. You can now know what size boolit needs to drop from your mold and what sizing die to buy. This also helps define what expander ball you need for the neck of the brass for correct boolit tension. You have a good head on your shoulders and will do just fine. As others have said, just go easy and use good safe data for your loads.

[303Guy]

Welcome to the forum. :drinks:

Just to confuse things a little more, for your 308 there is the option of paper patching for full power loads if you so choose. But that's for later and is a whole nudder ball game. Fun though. Lots of fun. Something to look forward to perhaps. When you're ready, check out the paper patching sub-forum. Then one day you can look into making your own lube. :mrgreen:

[stanford]

Thanks smoked, the knowledge you guys have passed on to me is priceless. I never in my life would have though that a gun that shoots the same bullet would have different barrel dimensions. I am actually going to try slugging them again today to make sure my readings are accurate. I am going to melt the lead into an empty case and use that instead, those sinkers felt a bit hard. Not sure how to approach the .308 AR barrel, I will have to see if a 9mm bullet is big enough to use for that barrel.



stanford I read through all the posts on this thread. All the information you got was good it seems to me. Even when some of the posters answered a bit differently. You will find that most of us here are knowledgeable about this game. Guess what all the different responses tell you? They tell you that there is more than one way to skin a cat! In other words there are some ways better than others but more than one way to get to the end of the process. I think the post on don't over think the process is a good one you should pay attention to. You can make a job out of it and miss some of the fun. You will find that in time you will develop your own dos and don'ts and ways that work for you and your equipment. In the end each of our guns are its own individual. As you have found out the barrels of 45s are the same only different. I think knowledge is power to take a shorter path to success. Since you have slugged your barrels you now know, in theory at least, what size your completed boolits should be for optimal accuracy based on the tried and true logic of sizing one or two thousand over groove diameter. You can now know what size boolit needs to drop from your mold and what sizing die to buy. This also helps define what expander ball you need for the neck of the brass for correct boolit tension. You have a good head on your shoulders and will do just fine. As others have said, just go easy and use good safe data for your loads.

[stanford]

I appreciate all the comments guys, you folks are truly priceless.

[mdi]

Yep, lots of good answers/suggestions. So, it's now your job to make up and shoot some "custom" lead boolits and spread the word! Keep us informed of your progress...:mrgreen:

[jlchucker]

Sanford, the guys have given you a lot of info, all of it good. Here's one more thing: Now that you are getting into it, be sure to remember, next time you go to the range, when you are done shooting, head out to the backstop berm and do some eyeballing. Lots of people shoot storebought cast boolits, and leave the ones they've fired in the backstop berms. For you, a coffee can full of such spent boolits are now the raw material for boolits you can cast for your own calibers. The same goes for storebought pre-cast boolits you may find at yardsales and such. Caliber is unimportant. Once they go in your leadpot, and then your molds, they'll be the caliber you want. We're all berm-miners and scroungers here, for the most part.

[dondiego]

I would get a 0.311 sizer for your .308 and a 0.357 or .358 for the 9 MM and .380 ACP.

[Oleman]

Lots of good reading and suggestions on this site. Read as much as you can and practice helps. Last weekends efforts with my 357446 was a positive experience.

116415

[rintinglen]

Casting makes perfect.
There is as much art as science to getting good boolits. But the real deal is practice. You will quickly learn the techniques that work best for you, but you will learn a lot more by doing than by reading. Not to denigrate book learning--it's important and allows you to learn the language so you can ask the right questions when you do hit that first block--but just as reading about baseball won't make you a good hitter, you have to put hands on molds to learn to cast.
You have picked a good one to start on--the 45 ACP. It is one of the easiest cartridges to cast for, and barrels are pretty much standard these days so a .452 sizer will almost certainly work for you. Work on that and when you get that down, you'll find the others much easier.

It's a rewarding hobby, potentially addictive. Don't get bogged down in minutia--leave the BHN, water dropping, paper patching et. al. for another day and concentrate on making some good boolits for your 45.