Soft lead boolits in 45-70???

[GunnyJohn]

I'm thinking about casting up a few pure lead boolits for my 45-70. I'm currently casting 50-50 WW-soft lead. I run them around 1400 fps (more or less) according to load data. I was just wondering what difference it would make. I plan to use them for hunting. I figured that the old time buffalo hunters used them, so they ought to work fine on deer, bear , and elk. Any thoughts? I was thinking that they should expand better, making a quicker kill? Is leading going to be a problem at this speed? Your thoughts and comments are, as always much appreciated. By the way my current load is 29 grains of 5744 and a 420 grain boolit 50-50 as stated above.

[country gent]

I use 20-1 lead tin alloy as the small amount of tin aids fill out greatly. Recovered ( from sand backstop) 500 grn paper patched slugs measured just over .900 at widest spot and stilled wieghed in at 480 grns. What rifle are you planning on using them in. I use 20-1 for my black powder loads in 500 grn 45 cal and 400 grn 40 cal loads. I would add a little tin to aid fillout and ease casting. From what I have read and been told original 45-70 bullets were between 16-1 and 20-1. Mix up some alloy in a small batch and try it. 10 lbs pure lead to 1/2 lb tin. Experimenting is half the fun

[GunnyJohn]

My rifle is a one of a kind, built on a H&R shotgun action, by a friend of mine. He tested it with some loads that he had loaded for his Ruger #1. I know it will handle hotter loads, but they are not much fun to shoot. Any way I figure why push it. One of these days I'll figure out how to post pictures on here and post a pic. The barrel is really different, it's round at the breech, goes octaginal with the top flat for about 2/3's was reindexed and has an edge up for the last 1/3 of the barrel if that makes sense. Machinists at play. HaHa. Anyway it shoots well and the kids are already fighting over it.




I use 20-1 lead tin alloy as the small amount of tin aids fill out greatly. Recovered ( from sand backstop) 500 grn paper patched slugs measured just over .900 at widest spot and stilled wieghed in at 480 grns. What rifle are you planning on using them in. I use 20-1 for my black powder loads in 500 grn 45 cal and 400 grn 40 cal loads. I would add a little tin to aid fillout and ease casting. From what I have read and been told original 45-70 bullets were between 16-1 and 20-1. Mix up some alloy in a small batch and try it. 10 lbs pure lead to 1/2 lb tin. Experimenting is half the fun

[dlbarr]

Is leading going to be a problem at this speed? Your thoughts and comments are, as always much appreciated. By the way my current load is 29 grains of 5744 and a 420 grain boolit 50-50 as stated above.

I have a similar load using a 405 gr boolit with 30gr of 5744, which the manual says produces just <1500 fps. So your load shouldn't be a problem with leading. What are you shooting these loads out of BTW?

[Wayne Smith]

Sounds like a fun gun, if you don't push it! Try a case full of FFG and a cardboard wad with the pure boolits. BTW, the buffalo were killed with 16-1 (Sharps) and 20-1 (Remington-UMC) bullets, not pure.

[Petrol & Powder]

A dead soft, properly lubed bullet might work in a rifle at 1400fps, if you're lucky but I strongly suspect you will get serious leading. A 20:1 lead/tin alloy would give you the benefit of better mold filling. I agree with the history quoted by Wayne Smith, I recall reading about simple binary alloys being used in the later half of the 1800's for most cartridge loads.
At 20:1 I believe the bullet will still expand nicely and you'll be happier when it is time to fire that second shot or clean the rifle!

Pure lead has BHN around 5
50%/50% WW & Pb is around BHN 10.1
and 20:1 lead/tin is BHN 10

So 20:1 will be almost the same as your 50/50 ww/Pb alloy.

I'd stay away from pure lead in non-patched rifle load. Your current load or 20:1 will expand just fine.

[44man]

Pure is not good with smokeless. Add tin for BP but you are better off with a 50-50 or 75-25 WW and pure with smokeless.
5744 is supposed to match BP but it does not and I have had sad results with it.

[Maineboy]

This is what a 405FP Lee boolit cast 50/50 pure lead/wheel weights looks like when it hits a series of milk jugs filled with water at 1625fps. I've killed 2 deer with that load, one, which was running, was hit a little too far back. Neither went more than 40 yards before dropping.

[grouch]

I like the 20:1 - my rolling block shoots it noticeably better than ww + 2% tin. So do my 30 30s at velocities well beyond most 45 70s and with a faster twist. The advantages of hard cast are often overstated.
Grouch

[KAF]

"leading" is when gas cutting occurs. A bullet a bit oversized, (.001-.002) will seal off the hot gases that cause leading. Also a card board or cork wad .030" to .095" thick, will act as a gas check, just so it IS NOT down on the powder charge, it should be at least .200" off a smokeless charge. BP will fill the case and the card will stay on top of the charge against the bullet base, no worries. Tin just helps fill the grease grooves and corners and gives it a bit of toughness.
Using half pure lead with ww is a waste of good material (lead)

[GunnyJohn]

Thanks. I appreciate the info. I didn't really know.

Sounds like a fun gun, if you don't push it! Try a case full of FFG and a cardboard wad with the pure boolits. BTW, the buffalo were killed with 16-1 (Sharps) and 20-1 (Remington-UMC) bullets, not pure.

[GunnyJohn]

Thanks to all for the info. It has given me something to ponder. Maineboy thanks for the pic you drove home a point.

[Toymaker]

Last Tuesday I just finished Part 1 of a test with my 45-70. It's a Pedersoli Creedmoor #2 Rolling Block. I've been using a very hard 405 grain bullet over 23 grains 4759. A large rifle primer is unnecessary to ignite these powders so I use a large pistol primer. It has good accuracy but leaves streaks of lead at the breech end of the bore and about 2 inches up the bore. It doesn't get any worse over the course of 10 shots; comes out easily; doesn't appear to impact accuracy; but I don't like it. I felt the rifling was "tearing" bits of lead off the hard bullet as it entered the bore instead of squeezing it into the grooves. So I tested a softer bullet. I found pure lead didn't fill the large bullet mold well and I had a high rejection rate. I added bits of known weight tin to my pot until the bullets started coming out fully filled. I'd added 7 oz of tin to 20 lbs of pure lead.
Bullet #1 was 405 grain that dropped a bullet of 417 grains using BHN 8 lead/tin alloy. Bullet #2 was 500 grain that dropped bullet of 535 grains with the lead/tin alloy. I tested IMR 4759 and IMR 5744 with both bullets from 20 to 28 grains in half grain increments. Everything was shot through a chrony at 100 yards. First, leading - I observed no leading, no streaks of lead, no chipping until velocities at the upper loads, i.e. bullet #1=1,350-1,400 fps; bullet #2=1,200 fps. It was more pronounced with bullet#2 than #1. I believe the bullet was being stripped from the rifling at the higher velocities. Second, the best accuracy with both bullets and both powders had been attained before leading was observed. Either Bullet #1 with 23 grains of either IMR 4759 or 5744. Either Bullet #2 with 23.5 grains IMR 4759 or 5744.
My eyes are old and the rifle doesn't have a scope on it and the groups were really nice. But if push came to shove I'd pick Bullet #1 at 413 grains with 23 grains IMR 4759 or Bullet #2 at 535 grains with 23.5 grains IMR 5744. In both cases the group with the load a half grain lower was in the neighborhood of 4 inches. The load a half grain higher was in the neighborhood of 4 inches. But when I shot the "sweet" load the groups dramatically dropped to less than 2 inches.
Test Part 2 will use fillers to see if accuracy improves and put the best up against black powder. The 45-70 is a fun caliber to shoot, enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.

[MT Chambers]

Those soft bullets in the .45/70 will produce great hunting results with great expansion.

[44man]

Use care with soft, stay away from a HP. BP velocities with a lead-tin mix is great due to lower velocity.
I used a 50-50 HP from my 45-70 REVOLVER at 1630 fps and destroyed a deer, lost an entire shoulder and blood shot the whole deer.116224 The 45-70 can ruin a ton of meat FAST. 420 gr HP was used on this one. Too hard will poke a hole. I need to work on the boolits to find what works. I want quick kills, good blood trails and meat left.

[44man]

Be careful with 4759. Do NOT under load, it can fail to ignite. I use 28.5 gr with a 420 gr, dropped to 28 once to test and the boolit went into the bore with all the powder behind it. Had to pound it out. I had Dacron on the powder too.
Revolver of course and don't know about the powder in a rifle using less. With a rifle I would use 3031.

[Piedmont]

I've shot pure lead from my trapdoor Springfield at 1200 fps or a tad less with smokeless and was amazed how well they did. Trapdoors have very deep three groove rifling and that might be a factor. I don't know if you can get 1400 fps. but you can get 1200, at least in a Springfield with a boolit that fits.

[44man]

Got one hole groups with 20 to 1 500 gr Rapine boolits at 50 yards from a Trapdoor using 3031. Friend shot many deer with it. Pure did not work as good for accuracy.

[Toymaker]

Be careful with 4759. Do NOT under load, it can fail to ignite.

Anything can happen and, if you give it long enough, it will happen. I use a 405 gain cast bullet, 0.459 in. diameter, 23.0 grains 4759, large pistol primer, no crimp, no filler - (testing with fillers decreased accuracy), and set the OAL so the bullet just engages the rifling. Over the chrony in January and February (cold) that produces in the neighborhood of 1,131 fps; in July and August (hot) its around 1,242 fps; in "nice" conditions it runs around 1,187 fps.
I've shot 11 competitions a year for the last 4 years, 8 months with this load. That's 40 record shots and (usually) 10 practice shots per competition. That's 2,800 rounds, excluding going to the range to practice. I've had 1 "punky" round - it went "putt" instead of "bang", but it did exit the bore and hit about 50 yards out. The two spotters looked at the case and informed me that, from the char and blackening in the case I had a contaminated powder charge. They were more experience than I so I took their observation to heart.
With 4759 being discontinued I've tested 5744 and found it's performance equal, if not slightly better, in the same load range.
ALL results and experiences are unique and should be accepted as that. They are "guidelines", not rules.

[44man]

It is the PUTT that is a warning. Same I got but the boolit did not exit. I increased the charge again and it works fine. Not good in a revolver when there is another round in the next chamber.
Who would expect that with 4759? The powder is so good in my revolver I just bought 16# of it.
5744 did not all burn in the short 10" barrel, neither does 3031. Strange, Varget burned clean.

[Terrence Clarke]

I have a Marlin XLR in 45/70 that i cast pure lead and shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards at 2 to 3 inches, and works great on wild pigs. Accurate Molds 460-355R at .462 lubed with alox 50/50 and always a gas check, 38 grains of AR 2207, should be about 1450-1500 fps- hope this helps