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View Full Version : Black Willow CC vs Tree of Heaven CC



Boz330
09-08-2014, 12:20 PM
I finally got out to test some loads with BP made from these 2 different charcoals. These loads were cartridge rifle but the ballistics are basically the same and I had a limited amount of time so will post results from my ML rifle later. I use homemade to hunt with in ML and BPCR.
I fired 10 rounds for each group on a 100yrd bullseye target at 100yds. The boolit was a 325gr flat point. I didn't swap out the white bead sight for an aperture so the groups aren't the best since the bead completely covered the black of the target. Out of 40 rounds fired, only 3 were outside of the black which is well withing the kill zone of a deer.

1st load 59gr of 2F black will CC, avg. vel. 1354fps, ES 64fps, group size 6H X 6.5W.

2nd load 57gr of 3F black willoow CC, avg. vel. 1336fps, ES 106fps, group size 6H X4.25W.

3rd load 60gr of 2F tree of heaven CC, avg. vel. 1345fps, ES 65fps, group size 10H X 4.5W, but 8 rnds. were in
4H X 4.5W, 1 called flyer.

4th load 60gr 3F TOH CC avg. vel. 1390fps, ES 55fps group size 11H X 5.25 W, but 8rnds went into 3.25H X 5.25W.

I lengthened the time that I compress my pucks and there was a noticeable difference in the weight that I could get in the case compared to my previous process. That also bears out in the velocity.

Bob

Fly
09-08-2014, 12:28 PM
Bob how much did you lengthened the time of compression?

Fly

Whiterabbit
09-08-2014, 12:48 PM
Yep, I wanna know that too. Additioally, I wanna know either how long you DID compress, or how long you DO compress. :)

Fly
09-08-2014, 01:06 PM
I think some of it is how much psi is applied.You can only compress a given materal
so much.My press is 12 tons.But I still have not acheaved the same weight powder as
say Goex.Close but not there yet.

Bob give us a clue my friend.Fly

Eagle66
09-08-2014, 04:24 PM
Those are really nice numbers, not enough difference to matter. ES is impressive! Group size too. Hey, if you get "minute of deer" groups you're good to go.

I compress my pucks to about 1350 - 1400 p.s.i. for about 1/2 hour after the pressure somewhat stabilizes on the jack gauge. My gauge reads up to 5000, and if I hold it there it comes out to just over 1400 p.s.i. on the pucks.

Actually, the pressure bleeds off very slowly, so I give the handle a nudge every few minutes during the half hour to keep it steady. I think the bleed off is in the jack seals, not further puck compression.

By my best estimate, I end up with a density of ~1.80 - 1.85 g/cc after the pucks dry.

Boz330
09-08-2014, 06:25 PM
I use a vise, just haven't gotten around to buying a hydraulic press. I use to compress till I couldn't turn the handle any more then push it out and do it again. This batch was done while doing other things around the shop so I shot for 10 minutes and I would tighten the vise some more every time I walked past. Sometimes they were in there longer. I know, not very scientific, but it did make a difference. My hunting loads last year were 52gr in the same cases and 1200 to 1250fps. I fill them to the top and then compress to take the boolit. Compression is right at .500 but the powder was noticeably harder to compress as well.
I think that I could do better with a press and more attention to detail but I haven't missed a deer and they weren't any deader than with store bought. It has probably been 10years or more since I shot a deer with smokeless and have used HM since 2011. A couple squirrels have fallen to the trade gun and HM in the pan and barrel. The fines really make great prime and I don't have to reprocess it.
BTW I'm really liking this tree of heaven CC. It is an intrusive tree and grows really fast, almost as fast as the Royal Pawlonia. No telling what I could do if I took this serious and knew what I was doing. I only hunt with it so haven't gotten real serious yet. Unfortunately I still have to work for a living, but it is fun being self sufficient filling the freezer.

Bob
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Fly
09-08-2014, 07:21 PM
I think maybe I,m the lazy butt here.I been compressing with my 12 ton press for
about a minute.But Bob your post got me to thinking, & that's not always good (wink).

Anyway I had some meal, & went to the shop.I pressed as I always do, but set back
& gave it a little more time.I did learn my jack bleeds off some when left with that
much pressure.After finding that out I jacked it up some more.All in all maybe three
minutes.After braking & grinding the pucks, I can't tell much difference as to them
being any harder.

If my press would hold pressure for a long time, I would like to leave it on over a
long time.But all thing said my powder very good as is.The weight of my corn powder
is not quite as dense as goex but close.The weight of mine at the same volume is maybe
5 grains different.In other words 50 grains of my powder by volume to weight to Goex,
the Goex of the same weight would be 45 grains by volume.

That is very close.But I really would like to get it the same but not enough to get a bigger press.
Maybe someone reading this might play with it & tell us what they did to get the same.

Fun stuff Fly

Eagle66
09-09-2014, 12:00 AM
For my money, the big difference is the pressure gauge on the press. I'm using a 12 ton press from HF. I use an 8 ton jack modified to take a pressure gauge. With it, I can monitor and regulate the pressure so every batch is pressed the same. That's why I did it.

I still recommend 15 minutes to half an hour of pressure.

Nobade
09-09-2014, 07:48 AM
I use a highly scientific method with my 20 ton press - hang my body weight off the handle. I can't pump it up any more than that and it's not bypassing yet, so that's my setting. I leave it for about 5 minutes while I mix up the next load of mill dust and its water. The powder is almost exactly the same weight as KIK.

-Nobade

Boz330
09-09-2014, 07:55 AM
I'm actually pretty happy with mine for what I do with it. If I were going to try and use it in competition it might be worth the extra effort but it gets the job done as is.

Bob

OverMax
09-09-2014, 08:34 AM
I don't know if you fellows are aware. There is a mathematical formula for correct corning pressure. Its base on the dies interior dimension. As stated. To much pressure slows the powders burn but has no effect on its energy produced. It also requires a PSI gauge installed on the jack.

Fly
09-09-2014, 12:34 PM
Well I may just try increasing my time of pressing.I made a gage for pressing my whistle rockets for
my fire works but we are talking a whole different deal.I do as noblade does, but with 12 tons.I,m going
to just increase the time to 5 minutes as he does & try that.Like I said mine is very close to being the same weight
as store goex.

My powder is very good as is but if increasing the press time helps, then I will try that.

Fly

mannyCA
09-13-2014, 06:06 PM
Never new you could use tree of heaven for charcoal in making you own. Theres literally hundreds in the fields around me. Good to know.

Fly
09-14-2014, 11:39 AM
I have tried it & not bad other than it burns a little dirty.

Fly

Boz330
09-15-2014, 09:20 AM
Never new you could use tree of heaven for charcoal in making you own. Theres literally hundreds in the fields around me. Good to know.
They are an invasive species that grow very fast similar to Royal Pawlonia. Fast growing trees seem to make good BP. They are very prolific around here as well which is why I tried it. I am pretty happy with the results of mine. While the cleaning patch was a little dirtier it didn't present any problem in clean up.

Bob

Fly
09-15-2014, 11:40 AM
Bob if you like TOH try the Royal Pawlonia.Thats the tree I told you about that grows wild in your
neck of the woods.My problem there is just not many here in Okla.But I did plant one in my front yard & a few in the woods.
Just waiting till the ones in the woods grow big enough.
(wink) Fly

Nobade
09-15-2014, 08:34 PM
Too bad those Pawlonias don't grow wild here in NM either. I see them in people's yards but never out where I could cut one up. They were all over the place in VA where I grew up. They used to be very valuable for making sandals in Japan, but I guess that market has pretty well dried up now.

-Nobade

Fly
09-15-2014, 09:03 PM
Yea it did & why I have not a clue.They are pretty & great shade trees.Where I found out about
them was a fellow fireworks buddy that lives in Kentucky.He said they grow by the railroad tracks
where he lives.He clams that when there was a large maket, they transported them by rail, & the
seeds spread & they grew all around his woods.

He gave me some charcoal he made, & it does make very fast powder.He also gave me some seeds I planted.
The coal is very light.I still have some he gave me & might make up a batch for my guns.I have only used
it as lift powder for my firework shells.If it burns clean then I might be cutting one of the trees I planted
in my woods.
Fly

Boz330
09-16-2014, 09:42 AM
One of the farms close to where I deer hunt put in a bunch back in the 80s. It was cleared several years ago for more grain but I'm not sure what they did with them. They are pretty expensive to buy though and I've never noticed any around me, although I haven't really looked.

Bob

Fly
09-16-2014, 01:03 PM
Bob I hear they are invasive species also.I bet if they were grown there, there are more around.
I,m going to make up a batch today & keep you guys posted, on how it works in my muzzle loader.

Fly

Texantothecore
09-20-2014, 11:55 PM
I am looking for some tree of heaven in Texas but so far I haven't seen any.

Fly
09-21-2014, 05:47 PM
Well I know you have black willow in Texas.

Fly

Boz330
09-22-2014, 10:55 AM
Looks like walnut except the bark is smooth. If you cut the bark it smells really bad.

Bob