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View Full Version : Odd 30-30 Chronograph Results on 311041GV _ Any Ideas?



Foto Joe
09-07-2014, 10:07 AM
After putting many hundreds of rounds through my Henry H009B 30-30 using different loads, OAL's etc. I finally decided that I probably had my pet load set up for hunting so I broke out the chronograph yesterday. To say the least, the data was interesting and at least to me confusing. The load is 20.0 gr of IMR 4198 under a Lyman 311041GV using COWW +2% tin and air cooled. Nominal boolit weight is 173.5 +/- .5 grains.

The configuration seems to be the most accurate for me and prints about 4" at 100 yards using a Weaver 2.5 power scope from a makeshift rest. Hardly match grade shooting but for knocking down a muley it's acceptable for me, keep in mind I'm a pistol shooter and am pretty ignorant of rifles and what they eat.

Here's where things got interesting, the first shot with that load passed the chronograph at 1,817 fps and when I saw the readout I was pleased that it was moving down range at such a good clip (by the way I fired 3 fouling shots before the first one over the chronograph). The next four shots were 1,680-1,688-1,685-1,694. I let the barrel cool off for a few minutes while I looked at where I was hitting the target then loaded the second five rounds and the results were 1,813-1,690-1,687-1,710-1,715. It appears that the first shot with a cold/cool barrel sends the boolit down range at a considerably higher velocity that subsequent shots and I'd like to know why. Each load was hand weighed and spot on for powder charge and although the boolits weren't "exactly" the same weight they were +/-.5gr and I wouldn't expect that small difference to result in such a deviation in velocity. I'll add that I also chronographed 21.0 & 22.0 grains of 4198 as well and the results although faster indicated the same cold/cool barrel difference in velocity. I also ran a half dozen 300 Win Mag rounds over the chronograph for my brother (jacketed) and those were all single digit differences in velocity.

Even though the rounds are hitting in "my" acceptable range for accuracy I'm confused as to why the strange chronograph results. I realize that a lever gun "Is Not" a bolt action rifle and I love this gun and am not about to abandon it. Is it me or is this just part of the art and mystery of shooting cast boolits out of a rifle?

Bzcraig
09-07-2014, 10:38 AM
I'll be watching for responses on this one:coffee:

HeavyMetal
09-07-2014, 10:46 AM
How are you loading the gun?

It could be the first round is being fed by hand the rest from the tube mag. or are you loading each round one at a time?

I was amazed when I saw the difference this made in an old 94 until the mag tube got fitted better.

Play around with "feeding" styles and see what your chrony says.

Yodogsandman
09-07-2014, 11:05 AM
Your powder could be position sensitive. Try raising the barrel before each shot. If the numbers improve, a small tuft of Dacron over your powder charge should correct it.

243winxb
09-07-2014, 11:47 AM
This
Your powder could be position sensitive. I feel IMR 4895- 27.5 gr- 173 gr gas checked or H4895 is a better choice of powder for the 30 WCF (30-30). Same bullet i loaded.

williamwaco
09-07-2014, 12:07 PM
1680 to 1820 is an extreme spread of 140 fps. That is not unusual at all. A filler might reduce the spread. (Or might not.)

Tatume
09-07-2014, 12:21 PM
These data represent a fairly small sample. However, I've seen revolver ammunition (especially the large cased 454 Casull) shoot lower speeds for subsequent shots after the first. The first shot appears to pack the powder against the base of the bullet. Thin tufts of Dacron will not cure this, as recoil momentum just packs the Dacron too. As suggested, try single loading your ammo. If you get more uniform spreads, this may be your problem. The only cure I've found is to load a larger volume of powder, which usually means a change of powder type. H4895 (also IMR4895) is one of the most versatile powders available, and may be your best choice.

leadman
09-07-2014, 01:02 PM
I have seen boolit lube cause this also. How much time between groups?
I do agree a change of powder may reduce your group and speed up your boolit. I use H4895 and the Lyman 311041 in my 21" tapered Contender barrel. Velocity is over 2K fps and accuracy hold around 1 1/2" at 100 yards.
I use Carnuba Red boolit lube for these loads.

Larry Gibson
09-07-2014, 01:09 PM
If you are not using a filler with that load then powder positioning is the cause for the high extreme spread, especially for just 5 shots. If you are loading the magazine with the 5 shots then the powder is position differently for the first shot because there was no recoil and the 1st shot was probably levered in differently. If you dropped one in the chamber and then loaded 4 in the mag the one in the chamber definitely has the powder positioned differently.

If you've any still loaded run the test again but raise the muzzle before firing each shot to settle the powder at the rear of the case. If you've none loaded then drop to 19 gr and use a 1/2 gr Dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

Foto Joe
09-07-2014, 01:27 PM
Well, well, well...this is exactly why I posed the question and the answers have given me a totally different direction to look. I was making the assumption that the cold/cool barrel was the culprit and never took into account that recoil might be affecting the powder. The way I was loading was to load 5 in the magazine and lever the first one in. I think what I'll do is to simply load one at a time at the next go 'round and see if I can prove the theory given above. Also I wanted to ad that I'm using Lyman Super Moly for lube.

Larry Gibson
09-07-2014, 05:10 PM
Joe

It's probably, what, 80 - 90 degrees up there......just plain freezing if you ask me........you should come back down here where the weather is fine......I've got 'em on ice:drinks:

Larry Gibson

243winxb
09-07-2014, 05:22 PM
I'm using Lyman Super Moly for lube. Might be a lube problem? Try plain old 50/50 lube, that works at a lower temperature. http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/ Melt Temperatures-

Lube working temp melt temp

50/50 room temp 162F

BAC room temp 162F

2500 room temp 162F

Carnauba Red 100F 162F

Commercial 160 105-130F 165F

Commercial 190 130-155F 190F
http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/BulletLubeMeltingPoints.jpg

Foto Joe
09-07-2014, 06:21 PM
I've had good luck so far with the Super Moly and supposedly is a good lube for rifle loads such as the 30-30. I switched over to it from Lyman Alox simply because I had collected two sticks from somewhere. It is slightly less messy than an NRA 50/50 lube.

As far as the temperature is concerned Larry I'm afraid that you didn't take into account that our summer ended a couple of weeks ago when the leaves started changing. We had snow in the mountains last weekend and the WX man is calling for 50% chance of snow down low here on Wednesday (5,000 ft).

leadman
09-07-2014, 06:46 PM
Many lubes work well to prevent leading but have a tendency to throw the first shot out of the group. I have had this happen with LBT Blue Soft and a couple others.
Larry could be right on the powder position. It will take some experimenting with one change at a time to nail it down.

Foto Joe
09-07-2014, 08:20 PM
I fully agree with a clean barrel not necessarily putting the boolit where you thought it was gonna go. I did fire three "fouling shots" prior to starting this little experiment so I'm hesitant to blame the lube simply because the oddball's were always the first fired from a loaded magazine. I of course blamed barrel temperature but I'm such a simple man and when I should over think things I don't. Never ask me to build an outhouse or my wife will tell you a story.:wink:

Larry Gibson
09-07-2014, 08:28 PM
"Snow"........what's that, I forget?

While I don't "do" anything with molly in it anymore it's not the lube unless it actually was close to freezing when you ran those tests. From many, many cast bullet loads fired over the years in lever action 30-30s with cast bullets and including 4198 powder......it is the powder positioning that is the culprit. Drop to 19 gr, use the 1/2 gr Dacron filler......all will be well.

Larry Gibson

Foto Joe
09-07-2014, 08:32 PM
I'm curious as to why if my 20.0gr loads seemed to print best you'd recommend that I drop to 19.0 gr? And exactly where do I get my hands on Dacron filler?? My wife will probably notice if I take one of the pillows off the couch.

frnkeore
09-07-2014, 09:50 PM
I fail to see how it can be the powder position if, they were all levered into the chamber and ONLY the first shot had the single high velocity. The ES was exceptable on all other shots, indicating that it isn't position sensitive.

Frank

rintinglen
09-07-2014, 11:20 PM
If you can stand the estrogen overload, Joanne's and Michael's sell polyester pillow fill--same basic stuff as Dacron. I am currently using bamboo fiber sold for the same purpose, (but it's ORGANIC--says so on the label.) The reason for dropping the powder charge is that adding a filler will raise the pressure of the cartridge when it is fired.

TXGunNut
09-08-2014, 12:02 AM
My velocity readings tend to climb with temp so I'm thinking positional sensitivity as well. I don't like fillers so I use powders that aren't position-sensitive or powders that fill 90% or more of the available space...no easy task with today's powder situation.

303Guy
09-08-2014, 02:53 AM
I do wonder about powder position when all the cartridges were fed from the magazine. There is quite a bit of jolting in all directions in a lever gun. Only one way to find out. Besides, the filler (powder positioner actually) will surely eliminate one variable. It's true that recoil will push the powder forward, compressing the Dacron but it will spring back I should think.

ThaDave
09-08-2014, 05:42 AM
Hows your crimp? Is it possible that the recoil is causing the rounds in the tube to clink into each other hard enough to push the bullet deeper and deeper into the case. deeper seating of the bullet causing an increase in pressure mixed with powder position could result in a change in POI.
4 MOA is something that you could work on even an iron sighted 30-30 should be able to do better than that. I would work on my load to decrease the MOA which should solve the other issues you are seeing as well

Foto Joe
09-08-2014, 08:08 AM
Crimp is the one thing that I haven't really worried about as I've leaned on loaded cartridges with about thirty or so pounds of force against the bench and get not set back but I haven't pulled one from the magazine after firing and measured it, that's probably something I should do to rule it out.

I've been practicing the "Art" of loading and shooting cast boolits out of pistols for some time now. Just when you think you've got something figured out somebody goes and throws a rifle into the mix and humbles me.

Toymaker
09-08-2014, 08:16 AM
I'm joining the powder position sensitive group. I've used IMR 4198 and had this exact same problem before with 30-06 and 45-70. Simple test - load a round, raise the rifle, give the side a slap, carefully lower it into position, shoot and record the chrony data. Repeat 3-5 times. Load a round, lower the rifle (point it at the ground), give the side a slap, carefully raise it into position, shoot and record the chrony data. Repeat 3-5 times. I'm taking bets.
You will also find IMR 4198 is sensitive to environmental temperatures. You develop a nice load in Summer only to find it's become a shotgun pattern in Winter. Ask me how I know. A switch to H 4198 will remedy the issue; check you reloading manual because it is a little different than IMR 4198.

LynC2
09-08-2014, 08:35 AM
I'm with Larry with powder position being the culprit. It certainly will show up on a target at long range as vertical dispersion (due to velocity variations) if one doesn't ensure the powder charge is uniformly positioned.

MBTcustom
09-08-2014, 09:10 AM
I would like to humbly suggest that you might just be seeing typical lube anomalies.
If you are in a cold environment, then the lube and bore condition are going to be greatly effected by the temperature of the barrel. Not many lubes play nice at less than 60 degreesF.
Think of this: As the lube heats up, the resistance goes down because it's easier for your load to push the boolit down the barrel. This means less pressure, which means less speed.
Go and let your gun cool off some, and your pressure/speed goes up again.
Just my opinion.

Larry Gibson
09-08-2014, 10:00 AM
I'm curious as to why if my 20.0gr loads seemed to print best you'd recommend that I drop to 19.0 gr? And exactly where do I get my hands on Dacron filler?? My wife will probably notice if I take one of the pillows off the couch.

The Dacron, like any filler, reduces case capacity and increases psi. Many loads shoot well at the same velocity (barrel "nodes" and all that) so reducing the load 1 gr and adding the Dacron which slightly raises the psi will give about the same velocity. Also with the large ES you're not exactly certain what the true "average" velocity will be. The Dacron filler will give a smaller more consistent ES and probably better accuracy.

I have recorded 150 +/- fps ES in my own 30-30s with 4227, 2400, 4759 and 4198 with cast bullets of 150 - 180 gr using a normal load the magazine and shoot. The first shot is almost always the high velocity. Pointing the muzzle down and then raising it to shoot vs pointing the muzzle up and lowering to shoot has produced as much as a 225 - 250 fps spread. Using a Dacron filler with all of those powders reduced the ES of 5- 7 shot strings (mag capacity) to 40 - 60 fps and accuracy consistently improved greatly.

It is not the lube, the crimp or anything other than inconsistent powder positioning. The Dacron filler eliminates that and you will be happy.

Larry Gibson

Tatume
09-08-2014, 10:13 AM
I would like to emphasize that my note about powder packing against the base of the bullet is not in conflict with the position sensitivity hypothesis. If the problem is position sensitivity, then Dacron filler may indeed cure it. This is not the same as having the powder charge molded into an immovable lump by the force of recoil.

I've only seen the problem I'm describing with fine ball powders, never extruded powders such as IMR4198. That doesn't mean it can't happen though.

44man
09-08-2014, 10:41 AM
I tried 4198 in my 30-30 and did not like it. Accuracy was just not there. tried it in my BFR 45-70 with jacketed and it did well but with cast I got pressure excursions to stick a few cases and from 1600 fps to over 1800 fps, can't explain it, I used dacron.
I went to 3031 and 4895 in the 30-30, down to way less then 1" at 100 yards if I hold good. Best is 5/16". 4895 was 7/8".
ES with 4895 runs 43.3 and with 3031 ES is 30.8.
Lube does have an affect so I use my revolver Felix in the 30-30. A very hard lube can cause the first shot to be different.
I have made my Marlin barrel so hot I could not touch it without any change in groups or POI.

303Guy
09-09-2014, 01:31 AM
I would like to humbly suggest that you might just be seeing typical lube anomalies.I'm wondering about that too. I can understand the extreme spread and not so stellar accuracy but both times the first shot that was quicker was from a cold barrel. Too many variables. However, others have found the same thing and cured it with Dacron so I am waiting in eagerness for further test results.

I have seen what looked like Varget clumping (it was a stick powder but a dark grey if I remember correctly).

The postulation that the boolit could be getting pushed back into the case seems plausible but not likely because the velocity went down which is not what one would expect if that were happening but would be worth looking into I would think. Easy enough. Load a few, fire one then remove the others and measure. Well, that's one way.

leadman
09-09-2014, 03:31 AM
Start with Larry's suggestions and see if it cures it. If not pick another suggestion and try it.
I have had lube cause this even though I fired fouling shots first. If there was a delay in firing the next rounds the first one would be faster or slower and usually be on the outside of the group. Can't remember if it was Orange Magic or Red Angel that were the worst for this.
If the filler doesn't work you could fire your fouling shots then immediately fire for group and see what happens.

Foto Joe
09-09-2014, 08:07 AM
No disrespect to those who have suggested a lube issue but I'm just not leaning that way. My reasoning is that if it were they lube then my first shot would be likely be out in the boonies somewhere and it's not.

My justification for using 4198 was twofold. The first was that Lyman's 4th stated that 4198 was the most accurate for "their" tests, yes I know my mileage may vary. The second more important factor was that the local gun shop had a whole shelf full of the stuff and not much else. Since it's been a while since I purchased the powder I'm hoping that inventories have changed and I'll have a look for some 4895. I'm also going to Billings this weekend so I'll have a look for some Dacron while I'm powder shopping. Unfortunately it's going to be a couple of weeks before I've got a weekend free to re-test and to top it off deer season opens on Oct 15th so I'm probably going to have to hustle if I want to try and work up a new load.

44man
09-09-2014, 08:39 AM
Lube is more important then many think. I always test a lube and have made hundreds of them with every lube I could beg, borrow, make or buy. I have drawers with so much lube, I could lube all your boolits for a year.
Let's see if I have the picture.115886 Left is LBT Blue and right is Felix, 50 yards from Marlin .44.
I am lazy and go from one lube to another without wiping the bore or "seasoning." If you need a bunch of shots first, something is wrong.
One of ours sent me Satan's lube and MML both were very good. Ben's Red was too slippery in the revolver but worked great in a rifle. Ben's works in the pistol like a 1911, I gave a little to a friend and he loves it.
The right load is a package deal, including the lube, powder, primer, case tension, etc. Nothing comes easy.
Do not believe books for the most accurate loads, tested most and found a lot of false info. It is your gun, never what they used.
All I say is to give it some thought.

303Guy
09-10-2014, 05:09 AM
Interesting how the L/H group forms a circle. Pity is wasn't a ten shot group. The one on the right is where heart beat can be measured. Great work!

nanuk
09-10-2014, 10:33 AM
Hows your crimp? Is it possible that the recoil is causing the rounds in the tube to clink into each other hard enough to push the bullet deeper and deeper into the case. deeper seating of the bullet causing an increase in pressure mixed with powder position could result in a change in POI.
4 MOA is something that you could work on even an iron sighted 30-30 should be able to do better than that. I would work on my load to decrease the MOA which should solve the other issues you are seeing as well

a bit deeper seating in a bottle neck cartridge can lower the pressure.... resulting in lower velocity.

gives the boolit more room to get a running start into the bore

Foto Joe
09-19-2014, 01:35 PM
So last weekend I found my way up to Billings MT and Cabela's, I picked up a pound of IMR 4895. I went to look up a load in my Lyman 4th this morning and came up with zip for that powder under a 311041 boolit. Hodgdon does show a load for a 170gr SIE FP starting at 29.8gr maxing out at 31.7gr. The weight is close but being the ignorant rifle person that I am I don't have a clue as to what SIE is, I'm assuming that it has nothing to do with a lead boolit. The short version of the question is: Am I okay using the above SIE data for my 311041 173gr boolits? I'd like to get out tomorrow or Sunday morning to do some test firing of a few loads with the 4895.

MBTcustom
09-19-2014, 02:06 PM
170gr SIE FP is referring to the Sierra 170 grain flat point jacketed bullet shown here:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/588614/sierra-pro-hunter-bullets-30-caliber-308-diameter-170-grain-jacketed-flat-nose-box-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding

If I were you, I would load your IMR 4895 10 rounds each, adding .5 grains to the weight with each sampling.
10 @ 28.0 gr
10 @ 28.5 gr
10 @ 29.0 gr
10 @ 29.5 gr
10 @ 30.0 gr

Shoot each and record your speeds and group sizes.
So if you notice that the best shooting was done at 29.0 and 29.5 grains, then in the next range session, load like so:
10 @ 29.0 gr
10 @ 29.2 gr
10 @ 29.4 gr
10 @ 29.6 gr

Pick the best of those, then start messing with your seating depth in the same way.
Start with batches of 10 loaded in .005 inch increments, then pick the best two batches, and remake them in .001 inch increments, bracketing your best two batches from the previous session.

Finally, you should really read this:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158805-Just-a-few-tips-for-new-rifle-casters
I wrote it just for people doing what you are doing.

44man
09-19-2014, 02:11 PM
I use 25 gr of 4895 with my 187 gr boolit. 29.5 might be good with your boolit. I did not chrono the 4895 but 26 gr of 3031 gives me 1903 fps. Both powders are good in the 30-30.
Check out my post with the 94 with my boolit.

44man
09-19-2014, 02:19 PM
I expect better from the 94 since I was fire forming neck turned brass. Wish I had enough to sight in with, only had five cases from my friend with the rifle, it is not mine. I do love the thing.
He said he had brass--yeah 5 only, I am not using my loads, powder, primers, etc unless he pays. I will do the work, but not on my SS dime.

Foto Joe
09-20-2014, 05:23 PM
This morning I took 50 rounds out loaded with IMR 4895 to test with the chronograph. As you can see from the attached data sheet the 4895 is a vast improvement over the IMR 4198 both in reduction of Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation. Unfortunately I'm not using a bench rest so to speak but using the bed of my Rhino as a rest and a folding chair so getting an accuracy comparison is just not gonna happen right now. I'm going to have to break down and drive out to the rifle range and use a real bench rest as well as shoot both at 50 and 100 yards.

The 27.5gr and 28.0gr loads "appeared" to give the best groups and I don't have a clue as to where the 29.0gr loads were landing but it definitely wasn't on the paper. I'm quite happy with the 27.5-28.0 loads as far as the numbers go, more than enough umph to knock down a deer. Now if I can determine whether or not it's the boolits wandering or my lousy rifle skills (I'm betting on the latter) and fix that problem I'll be a happy camper.

MBTcustom
09-20-2014, 06:31 PM
This morning I took 50 rounds out loaded with IMR 4895 to test with the chronograph. As you can see from the attached data sheet the 4895 is a vast improvement over the IMR 4198 both in reduction of Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation. Unfortunately I'm not using a bench rest so to speak but using the bed of my Rhino as a rest and a folding chair so getting an accuracy comparison is just not gonna happen right now. I'm going to have to break down and drive out to the rifle range and use a real bench rest as well as shoot both at 50 and 100 yards.

The 27.5gr and 28.0gr loads "appeared" to give the best groups and I don't have a clue as to where the 29.0gr loads were landing but it definitely wasn't on the paper. I'm quite happy with the 27.5-28.0 loads as far as the numbers go, more than enough umph to knock down a deer. Now if I can determine whether or not it's the boolits wandering or my lousy rifle skills (I'm betting on the latter) and fix that problem I'll be a happy camper.

Unless you do some really fancy footwork, you're not likely to get good accuracy much past 28.5 grains of powder.
I'm glad you started lower than what I recommended. I had thought that the weights I mentioned would put you right in the 1800fps-1900fps range, but obviously I missed my guess pretty badly. I believe your rifle has a 1-10 or 1-10.5 twist rate, and that will make it very difficult to achieve accuracy at speeds greater than 2000FPS.
I believe the accuracy you saw in the 27.5-28 grain range will indeed prove to be your accuracy load.

Foto Joe
09-20-2014, 07:53 PM
I'm glad I cooled the loads off a little too. After your post I talked to Larry Gibson and he confirmed that I could run up to 30.0 grains but risked powder compression and I decided to play it a little on the safe side. The 29.0 grain loads had quite a bark to them and I did manage to hit paper with one at 100 yards but the other nine went somewhere other than where they were pointed. I will also mention that all shots were individually loaded through the ejection port and not the magazine.

I'm going to load up 30 27.5's and 30 28.0's and go out to our "Not always so friendly" shooting complex hopefully next weekend and shoot from an actual support at both 50 and 100 yards. Hopefully with a good rest I can determine exactly where these things are landing and dial myself in.

44man
09-21-2014, 09:21 AM
Friend was out yesterday to check his 270 sights, Shot two (factory loads) and was in the bull. I let him shoot my Marlin and he hit everything at 100, cans, etc. He was quite taken with the lever gun and wants one now.
Still trying to get him into revolvers.

Echo
09-21-2014, 12:53 PM
FWIW - I always listen to ANYTHING Larry, Tim, or 44man say - they are 'way smarter than I when it comes to the subjects on this forum.

John Van Gelder
09-21-2014, 03:14 PM
Every gun is different. You pretty much have to experiment with your gun until you get the right load. The Lyman manual lists 18 gr., of 4198 as the potentially most accurate load with the 311041 bullet.

I would be a bit careful using fillers, as the "jury" is still out on that as far as "ringing" in chambers/barrels.

A load the worked well for me with the 311391 was 30 gr. of 3031 from one of the very old Lyman manuals.

44man
09-21-2014, 04:21 PM
Seems powder choice is the secret to the 30-30, no need to push the devil out of it either. I am so happy with mine I am not going higher.

Larry Gibson
09-21-2014, 04:31 PM
I would be a bit careful using fillers, as the "jury" is still out on that as far as "ringing" in chambers/barrels.

The jury has been in a long time with the verdict. Like anything else use a wrong filler and bad things can happen. Use the right filler with the right weight cast bullet with the right powder and all is well.

You should differentiate between "filler" and a "wad" as it is the "wad" that is most often the culprit. With the loads Fotojoe is talking about with 4895 there is not room for filler nor wad. Lyman bases it's most accurate load on internal ballistics and does not shoot for accuracy on target anymore, hasn't for quite a few years. Joe is shooting for accuracy on target for a hunting load. The 170 gr cast bullet at 1900 - 2100 fps makes a dandy hunting 30-30 load. It's what the 30-30 is supposed to be, no sense IMHO to settle for less.

Larry Gibson

Motor
09-21-2014, 04:59 PM
Forgive me for asking but I don't understand how a polyester material (plastic fluff?) can work in such a high heat enviroment. It seems like it would melt and cause a mess. Obviously it works but how? Does it simply burn to ash?

Motor

Tatume
09-21-2014, 05:59 PM
The polyester material is exposed to the heat for such a brief time that it doesn't transfer sufficient energy to ignite or melt.

John Van Gelder
09-21-2014, 06:34 PM
One of the main causes of leading in gun barrels is the use of under sized bullets, the hot gases ablate the trailing edges on the bullet and deposit metal in the rifling, something that is less likely to occur with a tight fitting bullet. Which in turn begs the question is the trailing edge of the bullet being melted, if it is then it would follow that synthetic fibrous materials are also subject to melting. Which then could be a cause of ringing in chambers/barrels.

The use of fillers and wads has been around for a very long time, the use of everything from cardboard, wads of toilet paper, kapok, felt, etc., etc. and the contraversy about the pros and cons of such usage, has been quite heated at times.

With very light powder charges, a easier solution is to elevate the muzzle of the firearm prior to each shot to settle the powder as close to the primer as possible. Glenn Fryxell, is well published and has made some definitive studies on this topic.

Tatume
09-21-2014, 06:58 PM
While I will not go so far as to state that bullet bases do not melt, I know of no reliable experiments that show that they do. What happens in a high pressure environment is not comparable to our experiences in a one-atmosphere environment. There are other mechanisms by which lead can be transferred from a bullet to a barrel wall.

The most common justification for this claim is that it "just makes sense." Many things that seem to just make sense don't.

John Van Gelder
09-21-2014, 07:21 PM
And water boils at 212 deg. F, at one atmosphere, 14.7# at sea level. Therefore it follows that lead would melt at the flame temperature of gun powder an average is around 800 deg. F, then we add in the factor of pressure, between 14,000-60,000psi., all ball park figures. A lot of the stuff that makes sense, "does".

More to the point of the thread, we were looking for explanations for variances in velocities, there are a number of factors, case volume, case length, flash hole diameter, uniformity of charge weights, placement of the carge in the case in respect to the primer, uniformity of primer ignition, a varaible due to clean v dirty primer pocket, variables in crimp if used, uniformity in bullet weight.

303Guy
09-21-2014, 08:04 PM
It seems like it would melt and cause a mess.Sometimes it melts, sometimes it doesn't. If it does melt it forms a little ball. Melting or not will be consistent with a given load. Cotton wool can be made to ignite (which can set the countryside on fire) but often it doesn't even scorch.


While I will not go so far as to state that bullet bases do not melt, I know of no reliable experiments that show that they do. I know of a few experiments that show that they don't. Mine.:mrgreen:

The boolit sides can melt though. Not so much melting as gas erosion. I recovered a 44 mag boolit that had been eroded between the rifling impressions, leaving the rifling impressions slightly proud (but no rifling skid). Gas erosion can be quite severe on the boolit base edges with deep channels being cut.

Larry Gibson
09-21-2014, 08:48 PM
John Van Gelder

Plain based cast bullet bases don't melt....proven fact. The sides get "cut" or "eroded" by the high pressure gas moving at very high velocity......fact. Yes water boils at 212 degrees.....however the water has to reach that temperature first to boil. Setting a pan of water on a sufficient heat source will not cause the water to boil instantly.....it takes time. Same with the bullet base......not enough exposure time to the burning powder flame temperature for the lead alloy to reach melting temperature. What some thinks is happening doesn't.

The Dacron filler reduces the case capacity and keeps the powder in a uniform position against the primer. A "variable due to clean vs dirty primer pocket"? Someone certainly has much better equipment to measure pressure, velocity and time of flight in a 30-30 lever action than I..........being able to measure that variable in a lever action rifle as it applies to accuracy, or velocity variation or pressure variation is pretty awesome indeed!

"With very light powder charges" Perhaps someone should re-read this thread and the OP's question and intent. Even with the 4198 charges the OP was using they are not considered "very light". Using 27 - 30 or so gr of 4895 in the 30-30 gives one 95 - 100+ % loading density......again not hardly a "very light" charge. Additionally since someone obviously missed it the OP wants a deer hunting load. Not too many deer stand around letting you raise the muzzle to position the powder and lower it slowly to shoot them..........

You can raise all the much discussed "pro's and con's" about the use of fillers you want but you might want to read the sticky on fillers. In that you will find the why, the when and the how of filler use as proscribed by most on this forum. Lots to learn there if you have an open mind. You might want to read the current thread running on the use of a Dacron filler. Too much success with a Dacron and the pufflon type fillers to ignore. That might be a more appropriate thread for you to argue your case.

Some of us have the equipment to measure pressures and what happens with and w/o an appropriate filler with an appropriate powder and an appropriate bullet weight. That knowledge based on science has taken the guesswork, the witchcraft and the myth out of the question. Now, in reloading many things we use can be very dangerous if we choose/use the wrong things. That includes the ho and the when to use a filler. If you bother to read the sticky on fillers pay attention to post #4. It explains it there. The rest of the thread is also very informative.

Larry Gibson

44man
09-22-2014, 09:30 AM
Larry came through again! Boolits do not melt, they can be cut from pressure. Mostly an ill fitting boolit or too soft so it skids, opening channels.
Dacron will not melt, I picked up too much in front of the bench that was only dirty. Even poly wads that could be used again.
Time is the answer, you can quickly pass your hand through a propane torch flame. Powder heat can exceed the melting point of steel but does not melt your barrel. Leakage will increase steel erosion from pressure so it is always best to stop leakage.
They cut steel with water jets so think of gas pressure in that way. If your rifle throat gets eroded, further erosion happens much faster from more leakage.
Make your boolit the plug. Hard boolits are not the problem, FIT is.