Resizing broke my press!

[kellyj00]

I just started casting with a friend a few weekends ago, we've managed to get about 3000 45acp 200 grain bullets made so far with the advice and help from this forum.

Now, we've found another problem. He bought a lee .451 sizer for this 45acp bullets, and he says it's a "damned hard process" and he actually ended up breaking the lever on his Lee single stage attempting to size these bullets. I asked him if he lubed them with alox first, he says it doesn't make that much difference.

He pulled out his caliper, read .454 to .456 on the few he tested. I bought the Lee 6 cavity molds used from a castboolit member. Not sure how used they are, but they definitely aren't pretty. (not complaining, just giving all relevant information).

The alloy is wheel weights, water dropped method to cool. We usually cast the bullets with very hot lead from a lee 20lb furnace set to the highest setting (all we have is large ingots, so this helps them melt faster)

Any ideas?

[jonk]

I bet it was an O frame challenger press, yes? Very common to break the linkage- midway sells them cheap. The one bad part about that press.

I dunno what to say other than I have sized bullets down 5/1000th before even on a hand press with no issue and didn't find it overly difficult. You might consider taking them down in 2 steps if it is proving difficult- like .454, then .451?

[dubber123]

That is quite a bit to size down, and unless you size them almost immediately, your water dropping is making them at least TWICE as hard to re size. The BHN, (hardness) of your boolits is most likely going from around 12 for air cooled, to well into the 20's by water dropping. A couple tips if I may, .451" is a little small for a lead boolit in .45, I find .452" much more accurate, and alot less leading. Secondly, and it was hard for me to believe until I tried it, is that a softer boolit will lead less in a .45 acp. The cartridge just doesn't make enough pressure to seal the boolit to the bore well if the boolit is too hard. If you continue to want to water drop, size them as soon as possible, before they get hard. You can see this yourself, size one thats a few days old, and then do one thats just been cast, you will feel a big difference.

[Scrounger]

Some things:
1. Sizing them from .456 to .451 (Check it; Lee does often make things smaller than they are supposed to.)
2. Water-dropping does make the bullets a lot harder, and certainly harder than you need for .45 ACP. Remove that step.
3. Alox would certainly make them size a little easier, but also the points above are very relevant.
4. Possibility your friend forgot to Alox the bullets and doesn't want to admit it. Check it.

[kellyj00]

is there any way to anneal the bullets we've already casted to make them softer?

Will a .452 or .453 be all that much easier? what happens if we make them too big, is there such a thing?

[Leftoverdj]

is there any way to anneal the bullets we've already casted to make them softer?

Will a .452 or .453 be all that much easier? what happens if we make them too big, is there such a thing?

Yeah, bake them half an hour on a cookie sheet at 450, turn the oven off, and let cool slowly. Do a very small batch first since your oven may not be that accurate. You want to heat to just below the point they start to melt.

Even a thou can make a noticeable difference in sizing. As long as the loaded cartridges will drop into the chamber, a little oversized does not matter. btw, you can open up the sizer by lubing a four cull bullets with fine valve grinding compound and running them through until they give little resistence.

I'm told that the links for the Loadmaster fit the Challenger and are much heavier duty. Can't vouch for that, but I've seen it mentioned several times as a fix.

[Woodwrkr]

I recall reading on another thread where someone recommended putting some sort of heat shield, such as a baking sheet, between the boolits and the oven's heating element while they're baking. It could help prevent melting your boolits.

[StrawHat]

is there any way to anneal the bullets we've already casted to make them softer?

Will a .452 or .453 be all that much easier? what happens if we make them too big, is there such a thing?

If they are unlubed, you can anneal them in an oven.

First place one or two sacrificial bullets in the oven and set the temp on 400.

20 minutes after it reaches 400 check the bullets. Preferably without opening the oven.

If they have slumped or deformed, lower the temperature 25 degrees and put in two new bullets.

Keep decreasing the temp until they do not slump.

If they are fine, raise the temperature 25 degrees.

Keep going up until they slump.

Working this way, you can find the temp at which you need to bake your bullets for 20 minutes.

This method works well for single guys, living alone, who actually know what an oven is.

The rest of us use the method of placing the bullets in something like a Lee 20 pound furnace and cranak up the temperature until they slump. At this point, they are ruined so you might as well crank it up a bit more and recast.

As to can they be too big?

As long as the loaded cartridge will chamber, the lead bullet will swage down to fit the bore.

One of my trapdoors is a 50-70. I need bullets close to .520 for it to fire accurately.

My 45 ACP's are both revolvers and I size to .454 for them.

Hope some of this helps.

[mike in co]

for 45acp...skip the water drop....easier to size, and not likely you need them that hard for a 45acp at low velocity....

mike

[Char-Gar]

A few thoughts on the issue at hand

1) Everytime I read a post about somebody breaking a press, it turns out to be a Lee press

2) I have sized water quenched 45 bullets in an RCBS press with no problems

3) Water quenching is not needed for handgun loads

5) It always help to bullet a little resizing lube on the first couple of bullets you push through. The size is true when using a lube/size machine as well. I use Imperial Sizing wax for that purpose.

[dubber123]

is there any way to anneal the bullets we've already casted to make them softer?

Will a .452 or .453 be all that much easier? what happens if we make them too big, is there such a thing?

Yes there is a thing as too big, especially when feeding an auto. If the boolits are too big, it will bulge out the case to the point they will not chamber reliably. I size .452" for my .45ACP, and find it the best fit. My brother gets away with .453" but they are snug in the chambers, and leave no room for fouling.

[kellyj00]

could I just use some sandpaper to grind out the inside of this press 2 thousanths of an inch?
Now that I'm thinking about it... 1/16" is .063, 63 thousandths, so the difference is pretty small with 2 thousandths.

[Scrounger]

You mean the die, not the press. There is an article in "Castpics" (http://www.castpics.net/index2.htm) on how to do that. I think Buckshot wrote it. Click on the link above; on the left side of the page, click on "Research and Data", and select "Honing a Size Die'.

[dubber123]

could I just use some sandpaper to grind out the inside of this press 2 thousanths of an inch?
Now that I'm thinking about it... 1/16" is .063, 63 thousandths, so the difference is pretty small with 2 thousandths.

Yes, follow Scroungers link, it's easy to do at home. I have done it to many size dies to get just the size I want. PM me with any Q's on the honing, if you have any.

[Leftoverdj]

A few thoughts on the issue at hand

1) Everytime I read a post about somebody breaking a press, it turns out to be a Lee press



Been many a C-H Swag-o-matic broken, too.

I broke a Lee Reloader. Paid $10 for it, got 10-15 years use out of it, bought another as soon as I broke the first, and I'll buy another whan I break this one. Think I got the second one free with a manual.

They ain't no Rockchucker, but I got a Rockchucker for when I need it. Got a Reloader for light work and when I want something portable. It ain't much of a press, but it's all I need for sizing pistol brass and bullets, priming, depriming military brass, flaring and charging cases, etc. I don't mind paying $10-$20 every 10-15 years for something that handy.

Many a new reloader is well served by a Challenger kit. Gets them started for under $100 and they can save that in no time. None of it is much good, but it's all good enough to get started with and can be replaced a piece at a time as they get more serious about reloading.

[MT Gianni]

A few thoughts on the issue at hand

1) Everytime I read a post about somebody breaking a press, it turns out to be a Lee press

2) I have sized water quenched 45 bullets in an RCBS press with no problems

3) Water quenching is not needed for handgun loads

5) It always help to bullet a little resizing lube on the first couple of bullets you push through. The size is true when using a lube/size machine as well. I use Imperial Sizing wax for that purpose.

This info. out to be a sticky. Gianni

[cbrick]

He pulled out his caliper, read .454 to .456 on the few he tested.

Any chance you could get a micromoeter? Calipers were never meant for accuracy of more than a thousands or so.


The alloy is wheel weights, water dropped method to cool. We usually cast the bullets with very hot lead from a lee 20lb furnace set to the highest setting (all we have is large ingots, so this helps them melt faster) Any ideas?

Yep, got ideas. Forget the quenching, you do not need it for the 45 ACP and its detrimental to leading, accuracy, velocity. With any luck you have not lubed the 3,000 bullets already cast because you should anneal them. Do not put lubed bullets in the oven, if you do and your married you may find out how expensive a divorce is, at the least how cold the dog house in the back yard is.

Do you have a lead thermometer? If not get one, you need it. Why are you casting so hot? What you'll get by running the pot temp this high is more and faster oxidation, a loss the alloy's constituents via oxidation, a slower casting rate while waiting for both the alloy and the mould to cool. WW should be run at around 700 degrees, possibly a little warmer for your aluminum mould.

The bullets should be sized .001" over slugged groove diameter and no, do not try to use those water dropped bullets as a bore slug, you will have a tough day if you try. My 1911 shoots either .452" or .453" sized air cooled WW very well. Don't size any smaller than slugged groove diameter or expect leading.

If it's not beyond your means get a real press. I know that a lot of people swear by Lee and I'll probably be chastised for that statement but when I read the title of your post the very first thought I had was . . . ah, another Lee press. Has anyone ever heard of a broken RCBS, Redding or Hornady press? Very rare to be sure.

Rick

[mroliver77]

Jason,
If you cut the WW 50/50 with "pure" lead and water drop they will work great in the .45 auto. I like water dropping as it is very fast for me and less hassle than trying to keep them all on a towel. I would shoot the ones you have and see how they work for you before trying to anneal them.
The Lee sizer dies I have are very rough inside and can make sizing kinda rough.
J

[454PB]

On the other hand, you must use the right tool for the job. The light Lee presses are not designed for sizing hardened boolits .004" without any lube!

If you had been doing the same thing with a Lyman sizer, you probably would have broken it....I know I have.

Live and learn.......

[Whiskers46]

Let me introduce myself, I am the owner of Houston Bullet Company, and have been casting for about 40 years but commercially for 7 years. I just joined Cast Boolits and find it very interesting. I just do not have a lot of time for the internet.
The water drop is heat treating the bullets, causing them to be about 4 times harder than slow cooled bullets. If you want them this hard heat them after sizing. Refer to heat treating bullets for more information.

[kellyj00]

Thanks for all the advice.
I figure I'll try to hone out the sizer about 2 thousandths or so, and drop the sizer in a chunk of forged high-carbon steel I got off an old computer server rack and hammer the bullets through. Who knows, maybe I can take a chunk of high carbon steel about 4"x4"x4", have it machined with 10 .453 diameter holes and ram them home with the log splitter.

It's a sizer of galactic proportions. Maybe when I run out of bullets I'll resize a rockchucker. ;)

[redbear705]

Are the boolits all uniform?

Maybe the mold has some small pieces of lead holding the halves apart causing larger than nessacary sizes.

[jleneave]

[QUOTE=Chargar;281204]A few thoughts on the issue at hand

1) Everytime I read a post about somebody breaking a press, it turns out to be a Lee press


I am new here so I am defineately not try to stir up any poo poo and everyone has a right to thier opinion!! That said, here is my opinion, I have been using Lee presses and dies for 18 years and have never had any problem with them what so ever. I started out with a challenger when I first started and moved up to a Lee Turret press a few years ago. Are the RCBS, Lyman, ect made stronger than a Lee? Probably so, but I have been using Lee equipment without fail and at a 1/4 the price of the more expensive units. Since I don't have a limitless supply of cash these savings have allowed me to be able to buy other equipment and loading components that I might not have been able to afford otherwise. Don't get me wrong here, I have several pieces of equipment that are both RCBS and Lyman and they are of the highest quality. If I were to break my Lee Press today I would probably buy another, but more than likely I wouldn't have to because I bet Lee would replace if for me.

Again, I am not crapping on anyone else's opinion here, just voicing mine. Thanks for reading.

[DLCTEX]

Try breaking a Lee classic cast press! Compare price with any of the other companies! I broke my Lyman turret press resizing 243 brass. I bet my Lee classic cast turret press never breaks resizing anything. Dale

[35remington]

Sound like the press that was broken was a lightweight C frame of the type that leftoverdj mentions. I use mine for sizing bullets and it has no problem sizing oversized bullets as long as they're lubed.

Sizing a hard, unlubricated bullet is asking for problem, and it was likely that after several bullets the die was leaded and the bullets were galling. Friction is huge in that circumstance. How do I know? I used to have the old style Lee bullet sizing dies that required a punch and mallet to pound the bullet through the die. Starting out, I used unlubricated, oversized bullets (reducing from .458 to .452") and a rubber mallet would just bounce off the punch. I broke a plastic headed mallet trying to punch the bullets through. Not smart, but I was more ignorant way back them. I finally got smart and started lubing the bullets after pounding the daylights out of my die and deforming the punch a bit. I could break that press that way too, but it doesn't mean the press is at fault.

I have three of them, so that should give an idea that I find them handy. I use them for everything except full length sizing of rifle cases of .30-30 dimension or larger. Trying to size large cases full length results in enough press spring that full length sizing cannot occur. They're better for lighter duty.

This press type is very useful if not abused. What your friend did fits in that category.

[IcerUSA]

Dale , don't bet on it , I pulled a turret apart on my Classic Cast Turret , of corse Lee replaced it for what it cost me to ship it to them , might have been some oxidization in that turret head tho or a bad casting , was FL sizing some 22-250 cases and I have my handle shorten up about 4 inches so not to over power things . :)

Keith

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Breaking one of the aluminum turrets doing something it isn't designed for is a whole lot different than breaking the cast iron of a well designed O-frame press. The Lee Classic Cast can be broken, as can the Rock Chucker or any other press, but folks ought to have enough sense to realize if they are pushing their equipment hard enough to break it, there's probably a better way to do things (such as in stages) than the way they're doing it.

To the original poster's question:

1. Repair your press and use it for applications it's designed for, which is lighter weight tasks. Get yourself a Lee Classic Cast single stage or other similar press for sizing with Lee Sizers.

2. Don't try to take so much metal off at one time. A couple thousandths is one thing, but the amount your talking is a bit much. Opening up your sizing die is a good idea, especially since the size you have is small for most .45 ACP barrels.

Regards,

Dave

[Char-Gar]

Aww jeeze guys... You would thinking I was bashing motherhood and apple pie, when I said evereything I read about somebody breaking a press, the press turn out to be a Lee. That is just a statement of simple fact. I have not read a post about somebody breaking a Rockchucker. Maybe somebody has, but I had not read the post.

I am not saying ALL Lee presses will break.

That said, my main press is an old RCBS A2, the last cast steel press made. I suppose it could be broken, but it would take greater force than a human being could apply with his arms or body.

[kellyj00]

If I wanted to pay $200 for a press, I wouldn't be casting.
That's the whole point of casting, to me, to stop GIVING money to the commercial guys. Lead's gone up quite a bit, but 45acp bullets have TRIPLED in the past 6 months. I give up a few hours of my weekend and I've got enough to shoot for a few hours the next weekend. Fair deal as I actually sort of enjoy casting.

Sorry, I figure it had to be said. I'm speaking for myself here, but I would rather have more money to spend on raw material and range fees than on presses. Has anyone ever considered saving up enough money to quit your day job and take up a position at your local range? Visa can eat their heart out, because that's everywhere I want to be.

We're honing out the die now and we may end up having to anneal the bullets. Thanks for the tips, never would have thought of it without this forum.

[Sam Carp]

It says in the Lee instructions not to use their sizer to size unlubed boolits. I was thinking they ment you might break the sizer die not the press. I have a Lee six cavity mold, the centering pins keep backing out and it doesn't close all the way. Check your mold it may not be closing all the way. My Star sizer instruction says to run a boolit through twice every now and then to lub the die.

Sam

[Blammer]

make sure you size em the next day if water quenching, if you wait longer they will get harder and harder to size....

[EMC45]

The Lee Classic is designed to size 50 cal.

[MT Gianni]

The Lee Classic is designed to size 50 cal.

Brass, not hard lead over sized by .005.

[dakotashooter2]

Here is another option. You may be able to reduce your bullet size from the mould by giving them a coat or two or three of mold prep products made to help the bullets drop out easier.

[mooman76]

The Lee Challenger press has a common problem of breaking in the linkage and it is an easy fix that I learned from someone else. I don't know why Lee has never tried to fix the problem, If allot of people were using a product of mine I would try to improve the product by finding out why and fixing it instaed of comming up with a super press (classic cast)that won't break! I'm not trying to knock on Lee because most of my reload stuff is Lee.
Anyway the common problem is the linkage. I broke mine no big deal, it cost like $5 for the part. It usually only breaks when the bolt that tightens on the handle to the linkage loosens and the the handle comes out to far and the leverage puts too much stress in the wrong place inside the linkage and it breaks the linkage. A simple fix is ge a bolt 1/4 " longer and a locking nut so it won't loosen and then the press will be fine. I broke the corner off my workbench resizing brass in my challenger press so you can't say it isn't strong! I do have a classic cast now and if I break it I think I will give up reloading!

[jim4065]

.........I like water dropping as it is very fast for me and less hassle than trying to keep them all on a towel.............


Amen. Since I usually cast several sizes at a sitting, I let everything fall in the bucket, then separate sprues and sort out the good boolits at the end of the day. The sorting works particularly well with a cold one. :drinks: