Shrinking?

[triggerhappy243]

2 weeks ago, I cast a bunch of 44 bullets with my lyman 429421 mold. after cooling I measured the rotating bands. they were at .4315. now I measured again and now measure .430. I use straight WW lead. is this normal?

[Bardo]

Seems odd i have never had mine shrink that much. But i did have a lyman 429421 drop boolits .430. Are they out of round? So depending where you measure they could very from .430 to .4315?

[triggerhappy243]

they cast very much round.

[runfiverun]

it's pretty normal.
depending on the alloy and time involved you can get them to shrink or grow a little.
if the alloy didn't shrink some after it was poured into the mold you would never get the boolits out of the mold.
anyway the amount of antimony in an alloy influences whether it shrinks much or not.

[Forgetful]

What about when you harden them through heat treatment. Do they shrink? I suppose letting them age & shrink before sizing is a good idea? Should you harden after sizing, or before?

[Wayne Smith]

I size immediately after water dropping because I don't want to soften the surface by sizing after it is fully hard. It's way easier, too! That may be the real reason!

[prs]

Cool water makes mine shrink. ;-)

prs

[hickfu]

Cool water makes mine shrink. ;-)

prs

:shock:[smilie=l:

[triggerhappy243]

what I do not understand is I measured them once cooled and they were .4315

2 weeks later the same bullets measured .430

[williamwaco]

A lot of people say that is normal.
Many of them are people whose opinions I highly respect.

That said.

I tested it twice with straight wheel weights and did not see it.

See:

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/exp_110921a-cast-bullet-expand.htm

[Bardo]

A lot of people say that is normal.
Many of them are people whose opinions I highly respect.

That said.

I tested it twice with straight wheel weights and did not see it.

diddo this. I have never noticed much shrinking when i heat treat. I dont water drop. But when i heat treat i size first.

[triggerhappy243]

I was going to ask about placing all these bullets on a cookie sheet and heat in the oven. what would this do to the bullet diameter?

[triggerhappy243]

Should have mentioned I water quench.... only because I want to handle them asap and work top space is limited.

[Moonie]

Measuring with a caliper or micrometer?

[triggerhappy243]

Dial caliper.

[williamwaco]

Measuring with a caliper or micrometer?

Mike.

This one:

http://ecatalog.mitutoyo.com/Digimatic-Micrometer-Series-293-MDC-MX-Lite-C1092.aspx

[Garyshome]

Measure them with a Micrometer not a caliper.

[cbrick]

Measuring with a caliper or micrometer?

Bingo! Calipers are only accurate to +- .001", even the best of them. That's all they were developed for, your looking for more accuracy than the tool is capable of giving you.


I was going to ask about placing all these bullets on a cookie sheet and heat in the oven. what would this do to the bullet diameter?

Here's some reading for you . . . http://lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm If you oven HT by all means size without lube BEFORE you HT. Lube after the HT with a die .001" larger than the die you sized them with.

But to answer your question, it's been my experience that any difference in diameter caused by HT will be very minor, measured in tenths, not thousands as measured with a good mic, not calipers. Even as anal as I get with my match boolits a few tenths just don't matter.

As Lamar said, the amount of or lack of any shrinking is a result of the Sb percentage, the higher the Sb percentage the less shrinkage. Using WW alloy it's very likely the Sb percentage will vary from batch to batch.

Rick

[triggerhappy243]

i USE A MITUTOYO DIAL CALIPER. WAS MY DADS WHEN HE WORKED AT GRUMMAN AVIATION. I USE THIS BECAUSE I CAN MEASURE I.D AND O.D WITH THE SAME TOOL.

I AM NOT LOOKING FOR DEAD NUTS ACCURACY WITH THIS 44 SBH, JUST WANT CONSISTENCY.

RIGHT NOW THE BULLETS ARE TOO SMALL FOR THE SIZER DIE. SO I NEED THEM TO CAST LARGER IN DIA.... SO I CAN SIZE THEM.

THE Sb.... IS TIN?

[Scharfschuetze]

The tin is Sn. The antimony is Sb.

The more Sb in your alloy the less it will shrink.

Here are the figures given in the excellent "From Ingot to Target:" "Lead shrinks 1.13%, linotype shrinks 0.65%"

So for a larger boolit (assuming you are deficit in Sb) you'll need to up your antimony (Sb) percentage to something in the neighborhood of a Linotype. Sb and Pb alone dp not make good alloy, so be sure to keep your tin (Sn) percentage at 2 to 4% or a smidgen more to keep things in balance.

Another option might be to "Beagle" your mold. There are a couple of threads and I think a sticky on the subject if you use the search function of the site.

[runfiverun]

my rcbs dial calipers will measure i.d and o.d too.
the only times I have seen a measurable difference in an alloy that grew was one with some copper in it.
and another time when I sized some soft boolits and let them sit, they squished and gave some spring back to a larger diameter after sizing but were smaller than before sizing.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

2 weeks ago, I cast a bunch of 44 bullets with my lyman 429421 mold. after cooling I measured the rotating bands. they were at .4315. now I measured again and now measure .430. I use straight WW lead. is this normal?


what I do not understand is I measured them once cooled and they were .4315

2 weeks later the same bullets measured .430


i USE A MITUTOYO DIAL CALIPER. WAS MY DADS WHEN HE WORKED AT GRUMMAN AVIATION. I USE THIS BECAUSE I CAN MEASURE I.D AND O.D WITH THE SAME TOOL.

I AM NOT LOOKING FOR DEAD NUTS ACCURACY WITH THIS 44 SBH, JUST WANT CONSISTENCY.

RIGHT NOW THE BULLETS ARE TOO SMALL FOR THE SIZER DIE. SO I NEED THEM TO CAST LARGER IN DIA.... SO I CAN SIZE THEM.

THE Sb.... IS TIN?
As to shrinkage with a COWW alloy, I've never been able to measure it with a Micrometer.

Please start looking for a 1" micrometer, even a harbor freight unit like this is better than a vernier caliper.
http://www.harborfreight.com/0-to-1-inch-range-digital-micrometer-895.html
some of the machinists here claim them can use a vernier caliper and get accurate readings on a boolit, while I am skeptical, I'm not gonna question them if they've used a vernier caliper everyday for 40 years

I have used a vernier caliper occasionally over the past 30 years in the electronics industry (assembly machines)...and I can say, with my experience, I can easily get .002" variance (reading to reading) on the same boolit, especially if it's a different day, a couple weeks apart...mostly, I suspect, due to variance of caffeine flowing in my veins :mrgreen:

ANYWAY when using a vernier caliper ..it takes a "calibrated" thumb to do so, especially on a lead alloy since it's somewhat soft. A Micrometer has a calibrated "slip-clutch" type of mechanism (like a torque wrench), so you always put the same pressure onto the item you are measuring. So you take the variance of thumb pressure out of the measurement.

Now to you wanting to cast larger, If you are hoping for .432 out of that 429 lyman mold, IMHO, you are not going to get it without beagling the mold.
Good Luck,
Jon

[triggerhappy243]

Beagleing the mold may make for a larger diameter bullet but it is not concentric. correct?

i will look into adding some tin and antimony.... isolating my batches for each bullet i cast for and see if the bullet no longer shrinks. If it continues to shrink, i have no choice but to look for another mould that is bored a little larger in dia. as for all the bullets I have cast so far, they get remelted and I start over.

[triggerhappy243]

JONB............

DIAL CALIPER............... NOT A VERNIER CALIPER. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I HAVE BOTH. I USE THE DIAL STYLE AND ALSO HAVE A MICROMETER. NO DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I HAVE READ ON EITHER INSTRUMENT.

The bullets I have casted so far, are just too small for my revolver. from what i have read on this forum, the bullets need to be sized the same as the cylinders bore and at least .001 larger than the barrels bore. as they sit right now they would allow some gas cutting. they are too small to size in a .431 sizer.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

JONB............

DIAL CALIPER............... NOT A VERNIER CALIPER. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I HAVE BOTH. I USE THE DIAL STYLE AND ALSO HAVE A MICROMETER. NO DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I HAVE READ ON EITHER INSTRUMENT.
If your uppercase typeface was intentional and is a sign that you felt the need to raise your voice, ....calm down, I was only trying to help you.

My Bad, I used the term vernier and should have used the term dial, sorry.

If you can measure a boolit and get no difference in measurement when using a dial caliper and/or a micrometer ...on same day ...as well as weeks apart, then you are a better man than me. If I'd have known that, I wouldn't have posted about a micrometer.

Yes, Beagling a mold will cast a less concentric boolit. Sizing can bring it back, if not all the way, at least somewhat. Depending on what the goal is, Beagling sometimes works 'adequately'. Ya never know til you try it.
Good Luck,
Jon

[triggerhappy243]

not yelling, just not paying attention to the type. I have a machinist background and very well versed in the tools of the trade. where I am lacking is in metallurgy with meltable metals. so I am a bit lost and frustrated. I never thought this lead, tin, antimony use could be as contradictory as my kids. never thought a metal would shrink over time. this defies logic and common sense. I have commercially made cast bullets i got from colorado cast, 20 something years ago. they mic at .431. they have been sized that size and look nice. I think I bought the wrong mold now, because my bullets, after they cool, are hard. they do not take a gouge when you scrape your fingernail across them..... but are still too small. A bullet cast at .429 will glide down the bore of .430 with wonderful accuracy----------- NOT!

if what i read here on this forum about proper bullet size for my revolver is true and accurate, I need a mould that is cut .002 larger than what I have now. Im going to have a few beers now. I need to unwind.

[Forgetful]

they mic at .431. ... .429

Try less Tin?

[cbrick]

Try less Tin?

Welcome to CastBoolits Forgetful, :mrgreen:

Triggerhappy cannot try less tin, in post #1 of this thread he stated he was using straight WW and didn't mention he was adding any tin. The tin in clip-on WW is roughly 0.5% it is what it is.

As for the calipers triggerhappy has made it pretty clear he doesn't wish hear about reality. If you search any of the sites that sell machinist tools you'll notice that ALL of the calipers, even the more expensive ones are guaranteed to plus or minus .001". The reason for this is that they are not designed or manufactured to replace micrometers. They have their place of course but if measurements closer than + or - .001" is needed then a micrometer is needed. That is simply the reality of it.

Rick

[triggerhappy243]

OK, Who else makes moulds in the keith design besides lyman? and what would I expect to pay for a semi-custom mould?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have one of these, but it might cast a little large for you? Mine drops 'em at .434
only $99.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=245&osCsid=rc351o9l0ajmcjp7jcruj6jli7

[runfiverun]

you have another option.
lapping the mold.
you have nothing to lose and something to gain...
it's a real handy skill to acquire if you want to use lyman designs of recent manufacture.

[44man]

Plain ww's will EXPAND with age. My .476" boolits will reach .478" in time. Just a week or so.
The trouble today is there are so many junk weights melted together, Stick on's and even aluminum and zinc that you don't know what you have.
The only answer is if we all had the same metals.
I back up Rick, calipers can't measure to .0001" like a good mike and they do NOT measure ID's, blades can't fit round surfaces. If you think you can measure grooves, you are mistaken.
You can compare to a .001" mike and from there on you guess.

[cbrick]

I back up Rick, calipers can't measure to .0001" like a good mike and they do NOT measure ID's, blades can't fit round surfaces. If you think you can measure grooves, you are mistaken. You can compare to a .001" mike and from there on you guess.

I gave up trying to educate him & didn't even mention the fallacy of trying to measure a round I.D. with flat surfaces. I'll just let him feel all warm & fuzzy, he's happier that way.

Rick

[triggerhappy243]

OK, cbrick. I ran with the point you made..........1 step further. I went out and got 2 new micrometers today. one is an NSK. it has what looks like an odometer on the frame to show a numerical reading. also got another Mitutoyo Mic. now I have 3 micrometers,1 dial caliper and 1 vernier caliper.

I re-measured test samples of these cast bullets.

Just so I am clear at understanding measurements here, 0.10 is a tenth of an inch, 0.010 is one 100th of an inch, 0.0010 is one thousandth of an inch.

the 2 new mics both read the same number and my dial caliper is 1/2 of a thousandth off of what the 2 new mics read. I can see where the dial caliper is not as accurate as the mics.......... but nothing has changed with regard to what this mould casts. they still cast too small.

I slugged the bore with pure lead. the reading I got using the 2 new mics both show .430 the same as my dial caliper. reading some more of the posts here, I get that my lead (from COWW) is not consistent with the tin and antimony from batch to batch... which makes some sense. my hard cast bullets cast at .431(too small to size in my lubesizer... which says .431. so i do need a mould that will cast at least .001 larger than the mould i have, or figure out why the bullets are shrinking....

[44man]

Try water dropping the boolits, they will harden and grow faster.
If the groove is .430" there is no reason a .430" boolit will not shoot good. I do it all the time.
Just remember what I said about GC's, do not size them through a die larger then the boolit. They will ruin case tension as you seat.

[triggerhappy243]

44man, these bullets I have been working with have been water dropped 4 weeks ago.

RE: I back up Rick, calipers can't measure to .0001" like a good mike and they do NOT measure ID's, blades can't fit round surfaces. If you think you can measure grooves, you are mistaken. : I dont know what you mean by this statement. I did not use the I.D. pegs to measure the bore. I measured the bore by slugging and then measure the o.d of the slug.

[triggerhappy243]

I have one of these, but it might cast a little large for you? Mine drops 'em at .434
only $99.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=245&osCsid=rc351o9l0ajmcjp7jcruj6jli7

I looked at this mould. and it looks like it would cast large enough for my particular revolver. It looks like aluminum. I need to call these people and get an education on their product.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yes it is aluminum.
I have the RG2 (meaning it's a 2 cavity with hollow point pins).
I cast them with a soft alloy (about 8 or 9 BHN) and apply a plain base style "popcan" gas check made from a patmarlin's checkmaker and sized to .431 for my S&W revolver.

But I also dip lube some unsized for a rossi 44 spl revolver that is way oversized internally.



http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/checkinstalled.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/checkinstalled.jpg.html)