New 45 70 with various questions

[jcrogers]

This could be a long post - sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Got new shiloh sharps and two boxes on loaded ammo.(Remington and Winchester) Pulled a bullet from both kinds. Here are the results

Tried the bullet in end of barrel - 1. The part of the rem. bullet went right in and was very loose , it actually rattled around
2. Win only started in

Weighed each bullet - 1. Rem was 386 grains
2. Win was 406
Weighed the powder - 1. Rem was 26 grs
2. Win was 25 grs

Cases were only half full
Both boxes said 405 grs

Each case had a pretty good crimp on it !

Slugger the barrel - 458 to 460 Good caliper set just couldn't get it exact. Will cast and I have two molds .458 and .459.that I will use. With the
above information give me some thoughts on all I have encountered.

Thanks

[Randy C]

Were the bullets you pulled jacked bullets, I'm using black powder Goex right now, you have to compress BP and put a wad over it before seating the bullet you cant leave space in the case with BP its explosive if not compressed, and I size them with a Lyman 459 / 45/70 sharps.
115107 115108
Are you wanting to shoot smokeless or BP, there is a lot of people here that can help you more than me, they will chime in in time.

[Johnch]

I am loading for several 45/70's with cast
Fire some ammo and see what the ID of the mouth of the fired case is
As that will tell you what size bullet your chamber will allow

Both my Marlin and TC barrels will allow me to seat a .460 dia bullet and still have room for the case to release
I find I get the best groups when I use as large as posible bullet

I feel that a larger bullet reduces the amount of blow by , till the bullet is sized down by the bore

John

[jcrogers]

Randy C and Johnch

Thanks for the replies - Rem bullet was jacketed, win bullet was lead with no lube as far as I could tell.
I am going to load smokeless - IMR 3031 or 5744 powder - any suggestions??????

Jack

[smokeywolf]

First, welcome to CAST BOOLITS and congratulations on your new Sharps; I'm green with envy.

Although my choice for a propellant in the Sharps would be holy black, if your going to try smokeless, not sure about the Sharps, but both 3031 and 5744 are excellent in most 45-70s under 405 grain g/t cast boolits. 5744 will usually leave unburned granules in your barrel, but they have little to no effect on accuracy.

With regard to your boolit diameters they need to be at least .001 over bore diameter (measured across the grooves) .002 is usually better. If you do not yet have a 0 to 1 inch micrometer, that is a must have. Then, it would be to your benefit to slug your bore.

There will be other fellers along soon who can give you much more information specific to the Sharps.

Again, welcome and good luck.

smokeywolf

[725]

40 gr of 3031 and a 415 cast boolit work for me in a modern rifle.

[Tatume]

Congratulation on your new Shiloh Sharps. I'm certain you will enjoy it.


Tried the bullet in end of barrel - 1. The part of the rem. bullet went right in and was very loose , it actually rattled around.

The Remington 405 grain jacketed bullet is a two-diameter design. The rearward portion should be 0.458".

Shiloh usually holds very tight tolerances. I suspect cast bullets sized to 0.459" will work just fine. Try some before investing in a custom sizing die.

Take care, Tom

[Toymaker]

My 45-70's are Rolling Blocks, 1:18 twist, 30 inch barrel. I've found that 68 grains of Goex FFg compressed 0.25 inch with a 0.05 posterboard wad under a 0.459 inch, 405 grain bullet worked very well. I used a 36 inch drop tube to load the powder and, of course, you need a compression die. The cases are fire formed, not sized and the bullets are hand fitted with NO CRIMP. A large pistol primer is more than enough for proper ignition. And remember to wipe or blow after each shot to keep the fouling soft.
For smokeless I use 23 grains of 4759. The cases are sized and neck expanded to accept the 0.459 inch, 405 grain bullet. Again, a large pistol primer is all you need.
Since 4759 has been discontinued I've experimented with 5744. It performs like 4759 until you get into heavier loads. I treat it like 4759 for my purposes.
The OALs are set so the bullet just - JUST - engages the rifling. To find this I painted the nose of a loaded bullet with a magic marker and inserted it. I'd move it forward until I just saw the marks of the rifling on the head of the bullet.
I've been using a really hard alloy bullet (BHN 35) but I've found lead shavings at the breech end of the bore. These do not seem to adversely impact accuracy. There are no shavings or leading on up the bore. However, I'm working with a softer bullet (BHN 10) in both 405 grains and 500 grains to see if these shavings will be eliminated. So far the 500 grain bullet is out performing the others.
For lube I'd been using Darr's lube. However, recently I changed to Ben's Red and like it for smokeless loads.
With either 4759 or 5744 something in the neighborhood of 23 - 24 grains will work well with either a 405 or 500 grain bullet. My velocities average between 1,250 and 1,300 fps. A large pistol primer is all you need. Recoil is no problem - I shoot a 40 round competition with no aches, pains or bruises. When I do my job the rifle and load will reward me with 2 inch groups at 200 meters off the bench.
I have tried 4198 and 3031 with rifle and pistol primers and 405 or 500 grain bullets. I found that both powders were position sensitive in the case. IMR 4198 was temperature (summer vs winter) sensitive. I've never found a good load for a bullet weighing less than 405 grains.
45-70 is a fun round to play with. Recently, with the 4759 load, I started inserting a segment of a biodegradable packing peanut over the powder to fill the case. It left no residue, didn't require any greater cleaning up effort, did not degrade or improve accuracy, but it did cut my standard deviation in half.

[Toymaker]

One other thing. On the smokeless loads - NO CRIMP. I let the neck tension of the case hold the bullet. It's more than enough. I also anneal my cases after 4 reloads.

[41 mag fan]

If your barrel slugged at 460 go with it. .460 is a very common diameter for this round. I've got a Browning that when i did a pound slug on will accept a .464 diameter cast. My brass using .462 and lower will split at the case mouth due to so much room in the throat area. When I find time I will be ordering molds from Accurate that are .464 and go from there

[littlejack]

Hey Jack:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.
Another important thing to remember: If you DO shoot jacketed in your rifle, remember to remove all of
the jacket fouling from the bore before shooting the lead slugs. If you do not, you will have leading
problems. The jacket fouling pulls lead from the boolits, and it continues to build up when shooting the
lead boolits.
Regards
Jack