454 Casull & damage potential

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

Freedom Arms and others have cautioned that using bullets in the 454 Casull cartridge that are not sufficiently hard will allow the bullets to upset in the forcing cone. This causes excess stress, eventually leading to cracking in the breech end of the barrel.

Does anyone here have any details on this? What levels of pressure are necessary to cause this condition? What hardness of cast bullets is sufficient to resist deformation and avoid damage? What speeds are achievable using cast bullets without causing damage to the gun? Any useful information will be appreciated.

Thank you.

[Digital Dan]

I might be off base but my recollection says the design standards for pressure in the .454 is 65K PSI M.A.P.

If you want to know what pressure is required to obturate lead: PSI = 1440 x BHN

As example, 1440 x 30 BHN = 43,200 PSI

Whether or not max pressure loads and soft lead bullets are viable with the Casull is above my pay grade and experience. I note that copper has a BHN of about 35 and that seems to work.

[Johnch]

Hornady makes a nice 250 gr HP
But it is designed for the 45 colt pressure

I have seen a Ruger 454 Super Redhawlk with the side of the bullet stuck in the barrel
The base was pushed through the side and it stuck
Then the guy finished off the other 3 or 4 rounds
It may have bulged the barrel
But not sure

But I know Ruger replaced the barrel

John

[MT Chambers]

I think the problem was/is the use of j-word bullets with thin jackets in the .454 revolvers, I've only used cast in my FA .454, med. hard for med. vel. and hard cast for higher vel., all wear gas checks.

[DrCaveman]

Hello Folks,

Freedom Arms and others have cautioned that using bullets in the 454 Casull cartridge that are not sufficiently hard will allow the bullets to upset in the forcing cone. This causes excess stress, eventually leading to cracking in the breech end of the barrel.

Does anyone here have any details on this? What levels of pressure are necessary to cause this condition? What hardness of cast bullets is sufficient to resist deformation and avoid damage? What speeds are achievable using cast bullets without causing damage to the gun? Any useful information will be appreciated.

Thank you.

Not sure that any of the replies so far have addressed the question presented. It is the same concern that i have read (or heard?) about the 460 s&w magnum. Insufficiently hard alloys causing forcing cone wear, and eventual splitting or cracking

No reference to gas check or lack thereof...no reference to jacketed bullets. The concern stated by someone (representing the manufacturer of the guns, i thought) was regarding cast boolits.

I should probably do more research, and dig up these sources... But for now, i am curious about Tatume's findings

[TXGunNut]

I'm probably wrong but have always felt the FA 454's tolerances were a bit too tight for most CB shooting. I've studied on buying a rather early one but am not interested in a J-word revolver these days.

[Tatume]

I've done some thinking about this and have come to my own conclusion. Comparing published data, jacketed bullets are divided into two groups, those that can withstand Casull stresses and those that cannot. Among those that can withstand the punishment are two that I have used extensively in a smokeless muzzleloader. When I shoot deer with them, the Marines I hunt with accuse me of hunting with a grenade launcher. The bullets explode so violently (muzzle velocity is 2500 fps) that much meat is lost. When I use my own cast bullets, cast of wheel weight metal with 1% tin, damage to edible meat is not at all excessive. Also, penetration tests with my cast bullets indicate little or no expansion, depending on the alloy. The WW + 1% alloy is the softest I use (except for black powder muzzle loaders). The bullets I use in the Freedom Arms M83 are cast of 2/3/95 alloy (2% tin, 3% antimony, approximately), with a measured BHN of 14.

Therefore, my conclusion is that my cast bullets are structurally superior to any of the commercial cast bullets I've used, including two that are considered safe for full power Casull loads.

[44man]

Better if you water drop your boolits to bring them to 20-22 BHN.
Bullets were a problem with the .357 max, .454 and .460, the cores were shot out, leaving jacket parts in the bore and cone. They came out with the Magnum class bullets.
Soft lead will slump and slam into the cones, seen a Freedom with half the cone and rifling worn away on one side and throats worn oblong with less then 300 factory loads, gun was too tight and off center timing. The super tight cylinders are just a "feel good" thing. Same as fitting a Belt Mountain pin so tight there is no movement.
I have shot Huntington customs that had more cylinder movement then my Rugers. Super accurate!
I am different then most in that for over 61 years I have said that if you have a problem, make the boolit harder, never get a revolver tightened.
If the gun maker says something, just listen. Once you slump a boolit you negate the ability to align the cylinder. You force the cone to size the boolit again. Not good at 50-60,000 psi!
I have never, ever advocated a softer boolit to obturate or to shoot over throat size, dumb idea. Why make the gun a double size die?