I really could use a few suggestions

[Ghugly]

Here is an e-mail that I sent to Lee. I think it explains my problem fairly well. I would really appreciate any ideas that you might have.


I'm stumped. I use used wheel weights for casting. Lately, I've been running into a problem that I really don't know how to address. I've been told, by several of my old sources that they can no longer sell their used wheel weights to me, "because it's illegal."

I don't know how to counter this. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no law that prevents them from selling used wheel weights. They sell new wheel weights every time they balance a tire and no one suggests that that is illegal. I'm unable to find any statute that differentiates between a new weight and a used one. There are, without question, regulations concerning the disposal of lead. But, retail sale is not "disposal." I'm at a loss as to how I'm to "prove" that there is no law preventing them from selling used weights to me. Yet, that is what they're asking. It's not too difficult to show that a law exists, but I haven't got a clue as to how one is suppose to show that a law does not exist.

I'm really not sure that you can be of any assistance in this matter. I am a loyal user of Lee products, and have been for many years. Used wheel weights are a prime source of bullet casting alloy for most casters and it seems to me that a threat to me, as a caster, is also a threat to you. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions as to how I counter this problem. I could do a great deal if I had a copy of any sort of documentation that would back up my argument.

I live in California. I realize that we seem to be blessed with an unending supply of well-meaning screwballs, busily crafting new rules and regulations to save us from ourselves. But, as yet, I haven't been able to find anything that should affect me purchasing used wheel weights.

Thank you,

John Belcher

[felix]

Excellent letter, John. ... felix

[Sam Carp]

Keep us posted as to what Lee has to say

Sam

[DeanoBeanCounter]

My first thought is ask them where you can look that law up and/or ask them what their source of that information is. Usually it's the mighty "THEY SAY" that is the culprit. Rummer control is a pretty powerful thing. It's either that or they are just holding them for someone and lying to you trying to look good.
Deano

[yeahbub]

I don't know if you were talking to the business owner or not. If someone is bending over backwards and going to great pains to impress upon me how impossible to accomplish my request is, it's generally a giveaway that I'm dealing with an employee pretending he has decision-making authority. The owner will know how to think like a businessman and is the real decision-maker.

They must be selling them. If not, there's a growing mountain of used WW's nearby that they just "can't sell". I've run into this sort of thing before. In at least one state I lived in, it was illegal to put used wheel weights on a customer's tire they worked on, so there were buckets of weights they wanted to be rid of - lucky for me! Occasionally, some genious would get the idea that this meant that they couldn't be sold to anyone, no matter what, but never batted an eye when the scrap truck showed up, took the weights and payed for them on the spot. Somehow, this was okay. . . or something. If they won't sell them, suggest that they just give them to you and it'll all be nice and legal. They'll probably blanch, look confused and mumble something about losing money on that deal, in which case someone's buying them. A couple of places I've called recently are reserving them for a preferred buyer (the owners's close friend) and wouldn't let any go to me, even if I payed more.

[shotstring]

John, I also reside in California and purchase used WW every month from Les Schwab Tires. If there was anything illegal about the transaction, you could be sure a large chain such as this group would not be doing it. Especially since they charge tax on the sale and is reported to the Franchise Tax board just like the sale of any other item. Hope this helps.

[MT Gianni]

Take a haz-mat class, print a business card and go into a business as a lead removal company. Tell your tire shop that you can legally dispose of such hazardous materiels and ask if where they are going now can do the same. Advertise weekend lead removal. I'm sure there have been some casters pass on and the family has no idea as to what to do with grandpa's stuff. You may even get a few molds out of it. If they want advice as to lead paint, fines or big jobs just let people now you are not equiped for that. Gianni

[NVcurmudgeon]

Here is an e-mail that I sent to Lee. I think it explains my problem fairly well. I would really appreciate any ideas that you might have.


I'm stumped. I use used wheel weights for casting. Lately, I've been running into a problem that I really don't know how to address. I've been told, by several of my old sources that they can no longer sell their used wheel weights to me, "because it's illegal."

I don't know how to counter this. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no law that prevents them from selling used wheel weights. They sell new wheel weights every time they balance a tire and no one suggests that that is illegal. I'm unable to find any statute that differentiates between a new weight and a used one. There are, without question, regulations concerning the disposal of lead. But, retail sale is not "disposal." I'm at a loss as to how I'm to "prove" that there is no law preventing them from selling used weights to me. Yet, that is what they're asking. It's not too difficult to show that a law exists, but I haven't got a clue as to how one is suppose to show that a law does not exist.

I'm really not sure that you can be of any assistance in this matter. I am a loyal user of Lee products, and have been for many years. Used wheel weights are a prime source of bullet casting alloy for most casters and it seems to me that a threat to me, as a caster, is also a threat to you. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions as to how I counter this problem. I could do a great deal if I had a copy of any sort of documentation that would back up my argument.

I live in California. I realize that we seem to be blessed with an unending supply of well-meaning screwballs, busily crafting new rules and regulations to save us from ourselves. But, as yet, I haven't been able to find anything that should affect me purchasing used wheel weights.

Thank you,

John Belcher


John, I have been banging my head againt that wall for about five years now. The English translation of the baloney your tire shop is giving you is, "I'm telling you it is illegal to give or sell WW to non-scrap dealers so you'll go away. Actually it is not illegal, but I'll never tell you that. I believe that I can get more from the scrap dealer than from you. I don't care about any good will I can earn by supplying your hobby, no matter how many tires or how much automobile service you buy here. You are only a stupid customer."

Buy your tires accordingly.

[Ghugly]

If it were only one shop, I would be annoyed. The last was the third shop and my favorite supplier. Now it's starting to get serious. I'm fairly certain that the misinformation is coming from lead recyclers who are trying to freeze out the competition.

The last gentleman always insisted on giving me lead, even though I told him I would be more than happy to pay for it. He is the manager of the largest shop in a small chain. About a month ago, he said that his company was going to sell all of their used weights to the company that supplies them with new weights. I asked him what they were going to pay and he told me. I said that I had no problem with that price and would be happy to match it. That seemed to please him and I've been buying the weights. When I last spoke to him he informed me that he was told that he can no longer sell to me, as it is illegal. I believe he is telling me the truth as he seems really pissed that he has to box up weights and store them for this company to pick up, when I am willing to meet their price with cash and no boxing or storing involved. He assured me that he wasn't going to let it drop without a battle and asked if I could find something that he could use in his argument.

If this was the only store, I would probably let it go with a sigh and a shrug but I smell a trend.

[mike in co]

this is a tactic used by "recyclers" to get tire stores to PAY THEM TO REMOVE "HAZARDOUS" WASTE.

YOU JUST NEED TO GO IN, ASK TO TALK TO THE OWNER/MANAGER. AND ASK HIM HOW MUCH THE GUY IS CHARGING THEM TO REMOVE THE "WASTE"
OFFER TO DO THE SAME FOR NO FEE, MAYBE THROW IN DOUGNUTS/SODA/BEER..........

I ONCE MISSED ONE OF THESE GUYS BY MINUTES. HE HAD JUST CHARGE TO REMOVE 6 FULL BUCKETS OF WW!.....
STRAIGHTENED THE GUY OUT, LEFT MY NUMBER....FOR A NO FEE REMOVAL.

MIKE IN CO

[mooman76]

It has to do with EPA restrictions. They mostly deal with large comanies but they have to show a tracking of all hazardous waste items. That's where the illegal part comes in. They also can't show sell joe somebody down the block as part of their tracking. WW's would be hard to track 100% since the items are not a one for one swap but all it would take is someone opening their mouth to the wrong person to get huge fines! You might want to hit up some of the small tire shops. EPA won't be dealing with them.

[dakotashooter2]

Find out what it takes to be a hazardous material recycler. That may involve being either the middle man or the end buyer. As an end buyer your business would be converting lead to bullets though in reality you would not be selling them. In the case of a hazardous material (and I use the term lightly) such as lead, even if it is regulated generally the paper trail for disposal is going to end when it is recycled into a NEW product. Bullets are a NEW product. Obviously the scap companies are not just throwing this stuff in the landfill and the battery companies or whatever manufacturing companies they sell it to are not taking down the names of customers to continue to track it.

[MT Gianni]

Haz-mat operator is 24 hours of instruction. Haz-mat Competent party, HMFIC, or lead depending on designation is 40 hours. It has been taught in Community Colleges for under $200 for quite a while. I don't live in an area that would pay me to do this but have the qualifications. You would need a business lic., some cards and advertising. It should be easy to set up for the cost of 2000 jacketed 30 cal bullets. Gianni

[yeahbub]

If it's illegal, there's a law involved. Laws are on a book somewhere with an identifier. Have them name the law or code so you can read it for yourself. . . . . That haz-nat operator idea sounds like it could open a lot of doors.

[Stevejet]

So now we have "tire store lawyers"? When I was in the Air Force in the 1960's we called these fonts of knowledge "barracks lawyers". You can't and shouldn't try to argue "points of law" (?) with these types of individuals. Go to another store or, if you actually have time to burn, use the ploy of offering free removal as a HazMat representative as described by some of our more enterprising members.

[Ghugly]

It took a bit of doing, but I think all is well. Mostly it was just a matter of reasoning with them. I convinced them that I really had no interest in buying "scrap or waste" lead. I wanted to buy "wheel weights." It was a little tough for them to take the position that it was illegal to sell wheel weights, since that is exactly what they do, all day, every day.

That and I convinced the manager to call a couple of recycling centers and ask to buy lead. He did and they said, "sure, how much do you want?"

[PatMarlin]

Take a haz-mat class, print a business card and go into a business as a lead removal company. Tell your tire shop that you can legally dispose of such hazardous materiels and ask if where they are going now can do the same. Advertise weekend lead removal. I'm sure there have been some casters pass on and the family has no idea as to what to do with grandpa's stuff. You may even get a few molds out of it. If they want advice as to lead paint, fines or big jobs just let people now you are not equiped for that. Gianni


Ha!

That's clever, BUT if you go so far to do that and the CA EPA finds you haven't disposed of said lead properly they will come after you like flies on stank.. :mrgreen:

That would be akin to collecting ashes from the crematory and dumping them in your backyard to them. Which has been known to happen also by the way in this great state.. :roll:

[Ghugly]

Ha!

That's clever, BUT if you go so far to do that and the CA EPA finds you haven't disposed of said lead properly they will come after you like flies on stank.. :mrgreen:

That would be akin to collecting ashes from the crematory and dumping them in your backyard to them. Which has been known to happen also by the way in this great state.. :roll:

Good point. And, exactly why I'm careful about the terms I use. There are legal definitions (big surprise) about what constitutes "waste" and "disposal". If you have a new roll of solder sitting on the shelf to sell.......no problem. If you sell the roll of solder...........again, no problem. Toss that same roll of solder in the dumpster.............big problem. Selling wheel weights or lead, for that matter, is not disposing waste.

An interesting side note. As of, I believe 2010 or 2011, it will be illegal in California for a store that sells plumbing fittings to also sell solder that contains lead. As far as I can tell, that would include Wall-mart or any other such place that sells any sort of plumbing fittings.

The ******** really are out to get us, one little step at a time.

[dmftoy1]

FWIW - I think the employee is just mis-using the world "illeagal". Did you happen to notice an "Interstate Batteries" sign in the window where you stopped? Last fall Iwas scouring the quad cities and hit a friendly guy at a firestone dealer. He said that he'd love to sell me his wheel weights as he was a shooter but that they had a contract with Interstate to sell them ALL of their used wheel weights. He said that Interstate even had "mystery shoppers" who showed up and tried to purchase the wheel weights to get them in trouble if they were violating the agreement. (he then walked me out to the bay and showed me two full 5 gallon buckets of wheel weights . . . .he said that he only saw 1 there but if there were two when he came back out then he would see two . ..and he walked back into the office)

[RSOJim]

I was offered all the wheel weights I wanted to buy yesterday for 75 cents a pound. Since a full 5 gallon bucket weights about 140 pounds thats 105 dollars a bucket. I passed.

[wiljen]

One of the shops here wants $25 a bucket. I used to think that was ridiculous, but if my other suppliers dry up, I'll be buying em.

[dakotashooter2]

Selling wheel weights or lead, for that matter, is not disposing waste.

I agree. As a matter of fact where is the line between lead being a hazardous waste and a recycleable material? It is likely that many shops are confusing illegal disposal with legal recycling.