Lubrisizer squishing boolits

[adanymous]

Hey guys, trying to lube my boolits from an noe 311247. I have a lyman 4500 and 311 die, as well as the top punch from NOE. I can get all but the last driving band into the die but then it starts squishing my boolits instead of going into the die. Any ideas

[Ed_Shot]

Have you backed off on the adjustment screw on the bottom of your 4500 to allow the boolet to be pushed deeper into the H&I die.

[Tatume]

Have you backed off on the adjustment screw on the bottom of your 4500 to allow the boolet to be pushed deeper into the H&I die.

+1 If you can unscrew the adjustment more, it will allow the bullet to go deeper into the die.

[Shiloh]

If your adjustment screw has lube on it, it may feel like it is bottomed out, but really isn't.
There is plenty enough adjustment on these presses.

Shiloh

[adanymous]

I got the thing working for a bit. It was not bottomed out, I put a little lanolin on a few boolits and it started working. However after a hundred or so now its sticking again. I have to pound the handle up to get it to drive the boolit out. It acts like its not lubing well enough. But the lube grooves are filled. Ive tried increasing and decreasing pressure to the point of no lube in the grooves, and lube extruding out the die.

[Char-Gar]

Define "squish". That could mean several things.

Folks who have been around cast bullets in rifles for a while, come to understand that shoving a long rifle bullet into a die in a lubesize machine can deform bullet and bend the noses. Often these machines are no properly aligned.

We use a press mounted size die that shoves the bullets into the die nose first with pressure on the base. WE then take the sized bullets and lube them in our machines. This takes more time, but a much better result is had.

Fat handgun bullets can survive the machine much better than long thin rifle bullets. Don't expect much accuracy from rifle bullets that have been pounded into and out of a die. Not going to happen.

[adanymous]

It was squishing the nose end of the bullet from where the top punch is down nearly to the driving bands.

Now its going in fairly easy but sticking in the die.

I thought maybe it was a lube issue so I lubed a few up with lanolin and tried to run them, they squished. So I took one that was already sized and lubed it up with lanolin and now its stuck in the die. Tried to pound it out but pulled the lag bolts out that bolt the lubesizer down. So now I need better bolts and an idea how to get that boolit out of my die. The inside of the die appeared to be nice and clean before I installed it, no burrs or anything that I saw. Im gonna pull the die and re inspect after the thing cools down a bit.

[dakotashooter2]

Undersized die and oversized bullet maybe ???????????

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Is that .311 die NEW ?

within the last year, I bought a NEW lyman die and the first boolit I put in it wouldn't come out. I didn't prelube it, as I've read to do with a NEW die.

OK, I remove the die and use a Hammer and brass punch to remove the stuck boolit.

I prelube another unsized boolit...it also stuck in the die.

again, I remove the die and use a Hammer and brass punch to remove the stuck boolit.

I look inside the die with only naked eye, it looks fine.

I decide to polish it anyway, with Flitz and a slotted steel rod with wrapped wet and dry sand paper so it's snug, then using a battery drill, polish away. I finish with a shop paper towel on that slotted rod and Flitz.

Problem solved.

[adanymous]

Its a brand new die. Youd think for the price you pay for this stuff it would be functional wen you bought it!

It sizes to 311 on the nuts though, so If I lapped it like that wouldnt it oversize it?

[MT Chambers]

Sounds like a combination of too soft bullet and also too wide for what you are doing, I don't have these problems with the nose first size and lube in one step with the STAR, however too wide/soft bullets will wipe out the lube grooves.

[Calamity Jake]

Its a brand new die. Youd think for the price you pay for this stuff it would be functional wen you bought it!

It sizes to 311 on the nuts though, so If I lapped it like that wouldnt it oversize it?

What JonB did with the flitz is polish the inside to smooth it up. I dought it changed it's size.

Try it with your die, it may fix it.

[John Boy]

Easy to determine the issue:
* Base diameter of bullet?
* Size of the H&I die?

[adanymous]

Im only sizing down 2-3 thousandths at the max. most are about .001.

Ill try polishing it, but its just stupid that I have to. Its like buying a toothbrush you have to clean first.

Ill buy RCBS next time and hope for better quality.

[243winxb]

Its a lube problem? After 30 years i cleaned a .357" Lyman die. The first bullet at .359" stuck in the well used die. Part of the problem was just switching to a new brand of 50/50 that i feel is mostly bees wax. After the die was coated well with lube, no problems now. Using a Lyman 450. To remove the bullet, i removed the die from the 450 and pushed it out with a vice.

[adanymous]

I don't know, Im using orange magic for now, I have a couple tubes. Tried lubing some of the bullets with lanolin first.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

the wet/dry sand paper I used was very fine...like 600 grit.
I didn't polish it that long with the wet/dry sand paper coated with flitz. (I added the flitz more so as a lubricant), maybe two minutes with the battery drill.

I polished with the shop paper towel coated with flitz for a while...like 5 minutes...I followed that up with a dry towel, a couple times. Then flushed with WD-40 and more dry towel action. be sure to clean the lube holes for any abrasive.

My polishing didn't change the size, you'd need some more course grit for that. I have Lapped a couple of sizer dies. I usually start with abrasive coated screen used for drywall, I think it is around 100 grit. ...for about .001" enlarging, I go with that screen for a minute (slowly), then follow up with some finer grit to polish it....then the flitz for a final as above.

[adanymous]

I might have to give this a shot. However when I got home today I had another amazon pkg and it was another 311 resized die. I don't know why they shipped me two but Im sure gonna see if it works better than the first! If not Ill try your method. It is silly though that lyman doesn't mirror polish the inside of these. It seems like a no brainer to me

[adanymous]

Well, the new dies are sticky too. So I polished them with 1500 grit paper and then flitz. They were mirror bright. That worked for about 150 or so, thought I was in the clear when it started making a crunchy noise. I kept running bullets trying to find where the noise was coming from. Finally took the machine back apart heated my dies to run the lube off, sure enough they are full of scratches, and even a few gouges. Im not sure what happened. I repolished them, trying again now.

Is there any possibility that this bullet is just too long to use in a 4500 and that the bottom punch is getting misaligned as it is so far out of the die? I thought about rounding the top of the punch so it might help it line up better and dig in less, but it already leaks like a sieve. I have more lube on the floor than on bullets.

[montana_charlie]

Is there any possibility that this bullet is just too long to use in a 4500 and that the bottom punch is getting misaligned as it is so far out of the die?.
Is it the ejector that is scratching and gouging the interior of the die?
How much bullet pokes out the bottom of the sizing die when you have the bullet pushed down?

CM

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well, the new dies are sticky too. So I polished them with 1500 grit paper and then flitz. They were mirror bright. That worked for about 150 or so, thought I was in the clear when it started making a crunchy noise. I kept running bullets trying to find where the noise was coming from. Finally took the machine back apart heated my dies to run the lube off, sure enough they are full of scratches, and even a few gouges. Im not sure what happened. I repolished them, trying again now.

Is there any possibility that this bullet is just too long to use in a 4500 and that the bottom punch is getting misaligned as it is so far out of the die? I thought about rounding the top of the punch so it might help it line up better and dig in less, but it already leaks like a sieve. I have more lube on the floor than on bullets.
"crunchy noise" that is not good, any chance you have junk in your alloy or junk in the lube ? I can't imagine how the eject pin could cause that, but you better inspect that closely as well.

[Char-Gar]

It was squishing the nose end of the bullet from where the top punch is down nearly to the driving bands.

Now its going in fairly easy but sticking in the die.

I thought maybe it was a lube issue so I lubed a few up with lanolin and tried to run them, they squished. So I took one that was already sized and lubed it up with lanolin and now its stuck in the die. Tried to pound it out but pulled the lag bolts out that bolt the lubesizer down. So now I need better bolts and an idea how to get that boolit out of my die. The inside of the die appeared to be nice and clean before I installed it, no burrs or anything that I saw. Im gonna pull the die and re inspect after the thing cools down a bit.

That did not help my understanding of "squish" at all. My understanding of the word "squish" or "squishy" is a substance that can be compressed like a rubber ball or your dog's squeaky toy or perhaps a sponge and then returns to it's original shape. Lead alloy doesn't squish! Perhaps you mean "squash" which is to flatten or deform. Words do matter, when there are no pictures.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I just had another thought, how old is your 4500 ?

Some time back a member here had a RCBS Lam where the pressure nut was wearing the cast iron off the inside of the lube reservoir. that'd be just as back for the gun barrel as well as the lube die.

I think I'd remove some of the lube from the 4500, I'd be sure to take it out of the area were the die is, then melt it down and filter it through a paper towel/ coffee filter of something, so you can see if there is anything in the Lube. If there is, then it's time to empty the 4500 and have a looksee in the reservoir.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

And another thought.
If the 4500 was Brand new... I wonder what the chances are that there were some metal filings from manufacturing, in the sizer?

[Char-Gar]

I have been using Lyman lubesize machines for over 50 years and don't understand all these problem as they are pretty simple machines to operate.

I did note, the OP said the machine needed to "cool down" before he could work on it. I have never use a hard lube that required a heater in all of my life. I have three Lyman 450s and not a heater in sight. My gut instinct tell me that heat is the problem here. Having never use a heater, I can't speak to the issue, but if a machine is too hot to handle, that doesn't sound good to me. Heat those iron castings up enough and I can foresee all kinds of binding and galling problems.

Commercial casters starting using hard lubes so it would stay in the groove during shipment. Somewhere along the way, the average caster decided it was the way to go, and for the life of me I don't know why. I have fired at least a million cast rifle and handgun bullets and never needed such a lube.

[462]

". . . but it already leaks like a sieve. I have more lube on the floor than on bullets."

Either you are applying too much pressure, or using a hard lube and heating it too much, or both. Used correctly, a 4500 will not leak lube.

[adanymous]

The bullet doesn't poke out at all, just the punch that goes through the die. But the punch is out a LOOONG way compared to say sizing 9mms.

[Dusty Bannister]

Is it possible that you have so much lube pressure that the "I" portion of the "H" "I" die is being forced up by lube getting under the "I" center rod in the die and the top of the push out rod that is pushed up by the linkage to eject the bullet. It is sounding like the inside of the die is being scored by the part that pushes the bullet up after lube sizing. That might have already ruined your die.

[adanymous]

That did not help my understanding of "squish" at all. My understanding of the word "squish" or "squishy" is a substance that can be compressed like a rubber ball or your dog's squeaky toy or perhaps a sponge and then returns to it's original shape. Lead alloy doesn't squish! Perhaps you mean "squash" which is to flatten or deform. Words do matter, when there are no pictures.
I hope this was just kidding....

[adanymous]

The 4500 is new, it replaced a 45 I can't find a part for. I am using lyman orange magic. I just left the heater on while I was sizing, and it made a huge mess. I seriously used two tubes of OM on <1000 30 cal bullets. Most of it seems to have come from under the lube sizer onto my bench. Theres a nice pool there. It leaks from the bottom of the die, and comes around the top of the pin. I might agree that Im using too much pressure, but If I didn't click the ratchet a couple times on every bullet I didn't get fill out of my grooves, even if I pumped the handle 3 or 4 times.

I too thought there may have been some metal in the lube so I pulled a bunch out when I polished the die the second time. I flipped the pin over so the somewhat rounded end was up and I had less issue, though I don't think this is what should be done. However as I was finishing up my batch it was getting sticky again. Im a newbie to this machine, and don't have a ton of time on a lubesizer of any make, but Im pretty frustrated with this one right now. It may go back to amazon for an RCBS if I can't get it sorted soon.

[adanymous]

Is it possible that you have so much lube pressure that the "I" portion of the "H" "I" die is being forced up by lube getting under the "I" center rod in the die and the top of the push out rod that is pushed up by the linkage to eject the bullet. It is sounding like the inside of the die is being scored by the part that pushes the bullet up after lube sizing. That might have already ruined your die. I don't understand the H and I portions. Please elaborate. The pin that pushes the bullet up is the suspected culprit of the scoring, but I don't know how it is doing it. It was super super shiny, after polishing....twice. I don't know how its cutting the die.

[montana_charlie]

I don't understand the H and I portions. Please elaborate.
On the Lyman 45 lubrisizer, and all of the models which preceded it, the parts were identified by letters.

The set of parts consisting of the top punch, the sizing die, and the ejector pin, were labled G,H, & I respectively, as in the picture below ...


It is still common to refer to a Lyman sizing die (with the pin that accompanies it) as an H & I die.


http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Lyman45_zpsc09c5bf7.jpg

If you continue to use the (I) ejector pin upside down, with the curved end on top, you will end up with lube between the bullet base and the top of the pin. That's why the pin is machined with a concave top.

CM

[adanymous]

On the Lyman 45 lubrisizer, and all of the models which preceded it, the parts were identified by letters.

The set of parts consisting of the top punch, the sizing die, and the ejector pin, were labled G,H, & I respectively, as in the picture below ...


It is still common to refer to a Lyman sizing die (with the pin that accompanies it) as an H & I die.


http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Lyman45_zpsc09c5bf7.jpg

If you continue to use the (I) ejector pin upside down, with the curved end on top, you will end up with lube between the bullet base and the top of the pin. That's why the pin is machined with a concave top.

CM

Thanks for the clarification, and your right about the pin. It was constantly covered in lube. Unfortunately it was covered in lube right side up too. I haven't touched that machine in 8 hrs but Im still super frustrated with it!

[.22-10-45]

I too noted where the OP saud he needed to let maching cool down. I had same problem in a Lyman 45 when sizing .38 wadcutters. Used a heat gun to melt differen't brand of lube out of sizer die..die was still fairly hot when re-installed..first bullet went in fine..had to remove die & use arbor press to get that bullet out! I have had same problem when using a WD-40 soaked Q-Tip to clean excess lube from die when is use..first bullet thru sometimes sticks. It might be the heat is turned up so high the lube is loosing it's lubricity...not all lubes behave like this..but some do.

[243winxb]

I am using lyman orange magic. I just left the heater on while I was sizing, and it made a huge mess. The listed temperature is when lube becomes liquid. Dont keep the heater on all the time. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/BulletLubeMeltingPoints.jpg

[leadman]

Orange Magic needs a little heat to flow in most cases. If too warm it can cause sticking problems even in the RCBS luber/sizer. I used 1 stick and switched to another lube.
Try some alox based lube from LeStuff (link on the bottom of this page) or another of their softer lubes. Their Carnuba Red works well but does need a heater at times.
If the luber/sizer is too hot to touch comfortably it is probably too hot so let it cool some.
If you continue to have problems water quench your boolits from the mold do they do not deform as easily.
You could mix some grease into your OM and give it a try if you are in a hurry. You will have to experiment with amounts of grease to add.

[adanymous]

I really wish that lube sizer had come with much more instruction. And maybe some trouble shooting direction.

[Char-Gar]

I hope this was just kidding....

Nope..quite serious.