Ruger Old Army 101

[snowwolfe]

Just purchased a stainless Ruger Old Army that the owner has claimed in unfired. It has the 7.5 inch barrel and adjustable rear sights.

I never owned a black powder wheel gun before so need some help. The only thing I know for sure is this revolver shoots .457 lead balls.

Purpose for this revolver is to use during muzzle loading deer season at ranges under 40 yards or so.

What brand of powder?
What is the best percussion cap to use?
Is there any good reason to change the nipples over to a different brand?
What type and thickness of wad should I use?

Appreciate the advice.

[rodwha]

There are a few who may disagree with me, but many more who would agree that using a more energetic powder is more ideal if used for hunting. You'd want to use 3F granulation and any of the three "sporting grade" powders being Swiss, Olde Eynsford by Goex, or Triple 7.

Here is part 1 of a 6 part test done by Mike Beliveau who is the editor for Guns of the Old West magazine. He gives the velocity, energy, and penetration (his RB weight is off by 4 grns giving it slightly more energy than it truly has, but it's only about 10 ft/lbs less than stated) of a ball, Lee conical, and Kaido bullet using a 7.5" and 5.5" Ruger Old Army and comparing standard Goex to Triple 7 all in 3F granulation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

Rem #10's should fit well, and likely standard CCI #11's (non magnums).

Ruger's nipples seem to be internally in-between that of the reproductions with a larger flash channel, which allows more back pressure, and Treso nipples. Track of The Wolf sells a nipple they make that are internally the same as the Treso and externally the same as the Ruger's. I have a set. They are cheaper than Treso nipples by nearly $2 ea, which makes them more than $10 cheaper for the set, which pays for the shipping easily. The only real reason to change them is if you have spent caps being blown off or if you want a specific cap to fit. Try the originals first and see what you think.

1/8" hard felt wads are what is recommended. I make my own and buy felt from Durofelt (http://www.durofelt.com/image_26.html).

[Dan Cash]

What brand of powder?

Start with what is available. Have never used Tripple 7 but Goex and Kik work well. Swiss not worth the price and leaves hard fowling. 3FG in what ever brand.

What is the best percussion cap to use?

In this day and age, what ever ones you can get. I have used CCI, Remington and RWS all of which provided satisfactory results.

Is there any good reason to change the nipples over to a different brand?

Not unless you can not get the size cap required. Shoot it until the nipples are shot then swap; it will take a while.

What type and thickness of wad should I use?

Particularly for hunting, a wad is not required nor is it desireable as it sucks up powder room. Check out a .452 200 grain semiwadcutter mould from about any maker (non tumble lube). Lubricate the bullet with a 50/50 beeswax/vegetable oil lube. When you seat the bullet, compress it and the powder firmly which will expand the bullet into the chamber walls and effect a perfect seal. You will have a dandy 40 yard hunting load.

[snapshot]

Goex FFF 30 grains
RWS dynamite noble #10
NO
none
grease cylinders after loading and B4 priming with a good lube , lard, Crisco, spit patch

[rodwha]

Greasing over the cylinders can be fairly messy, especially in summer (though he did mention hunting I'm not excluding summer use) when it can melt off into your holster, and can come off during recoil anyway.

You wouldn't want to use a spit patch in a cap n ball revolver, unless you mean for swabbing between loading.

I'm no expert, but when I first began asking this same question when I got my ROA I was told by most everyone that these things are weak and inhumane for hunting with as they are no more powerful than a .38 Spl, which I found to be fairly true if using a powder such as standard Goex. But that's with a full charge (40 grns), and so I'd think a much smaller charge would not be a good one to use with a ball. Mr. Beliveau, using 40 grns of 3F Goex and a ball recorded a mere 812 fps and 217 ft/lbs of energy just beyond the muzzle. I'm not real sure how much a 10 grn reduction would give you, but I wouldn't be too confident in a ball traveling so slow. But as I said I am no expert, and found that using BP and a ball defies modern ballistics logic...

Olde Eynsford, by Goex, is inexpensive. At Grafs it's an additional dollar over standard Goex.

[rodwha]

Out of curiosity I ran the numbers for a .50 cal rifle using a 90 grn charge of RS (1787 fps with 0.069 BC). To get what a 40 grn charge of Goex gives in a ROA it's out at 250 yds. To give what 33 grns of T7 gives it's at 125 yds. And a Ruger certainly doesn't need a reduced charge. I'm certainly not going to say a ball can't be lethal at 250 yds though...

[snowwolfe]

I have a big learning curve in front of me for sure and I look forward to learning more from you guys.

[Omnivore]

No need to over-think things, at least not at first. The ROA is a robust handgun, and so if you're contemplating hunting with it (we'll assume deer here) then stuff in as much powder and lead as will fit and still allow the cylinder to rotate. Try different loads and see what shoots best for you and your gun.

From the experiments I've done with my Remington 44s, more lube is better than less lube, but the gun will shoot fine (for a while at least) without any lube at all. The only reason I like "more lube" is that it keeps the fouling soft so you don't get a hard buildup in the barrel or cylinder arbor and so it's far easier to clean. In hunting, where you may only fire one or two shots before you go home (depends on the hunting) lube hardly matters at all. But if you want to do extensive practice with the EXACT same load that you use for hunting, which makes a lot of sense, then you'll want a load that contains some good amount of lube for extended practice.

For game the size of pigs and larger, a heavier projectile, such as the Lee 220 or whatever it is they have for the Ruger, will generally be a better idea than a round ball, but a ball will do OK at close range (the caveat, as always, being good shot placement). The Lee 220 has lube grooves which carry the lube without it being in contact with the powder charge. That's important for carrying for any length of time, as lube against the powder charge CAN degrade the strength of the shot.

In testing I've tried adding extra lube over the wad before seating the ball, and I like the results-- very soft fouling and very easy cleanup. That won't do though, if you're going to keep the piece loaded for some time before firing it, as the lube will find its way into the powder.

Hence a bullet with a generous lube groove is, to my way of thinking, a splendid idea. No wads and no messing with over-the-bullet lube after seating the bullet. The "DD ROA" bullet in their "Big Lube" designation is therefore a fine choice. Though I haven't tried it myself I have tried several other lube groove bullets and I heartily approve of the concept. Accurate Molds (accuratemolds.com) has a number of options that approach the same concept, though with not quite as much lube capacity. Which ever one shoots well from your gun (the DD ROA or any other amply lube-grooved bullet in the 180 to 250 grain weight range) would be a fine choice.

Swiss powder works great for me, but I defer to rodwha on the Old Eynsford, which is apparently about as energetic as Swiss but much less expensive.

I like small flash channels in the nipples, but the originals will work fine. The only time I really NEEDED a smaller flash channel is when my '62 Colt Police was having its hammer blown back so the spent caps would lodge under the hammer, fouling the next shot by blocking the hammer. New Tresso nipples largely solved that problem. You gun is a different animal, as are all my others, and it may never experience that particular failure mode.

[winelover]

I'll take an entirely different route.


What brand of powder? Pyrodex "P"
What is the best percussion cap to use? Remington #10
Is there any good reason to change the nipples over to a different brand? No
What type and thickness of wad should I use? Oxyoke "Wonder Wad"

I use the Lee 220 Conical for deer hunting. My ROA, prefers it over the round ball. Be aware that the POA of heavier projectiles will be significantly higher. Since yours is a SS model, a quick call to Ruger for a .455 BH front sight, will solve that issue. Oxyoke also makes a "lube cookie" that is less messy than traditional lubes. It's what I use.

Winelover

[Alan]

Ruger ok'ed the gun for any black powder or substitute, and any lead projectile that will correctly fit. It is the ONLY .44 revolver out there that will handle 4F, but that is hard to find. For max power, use 3f, all it will hold, and grease over the ball.

Was it mine, I would use my normal load - full cylinder of 2F, greased wad, and RB. It will literally cut cloverleafs at 20 yards, and still gives palm-sized groups at 50.

[snowwolfe]

Winelover,
Do you have any issues loading the Lee 220? Do you shoot it as it comes out of the mold or do you size it?

[dondiego]

I shoot the Lee 220's unsized but lubed by finger with bore butter. It is a little messy. I also use the Lee REAL .45 bullet too.

[Aaron871]

I use the Lee .457-200 sized to 454
They load and shoot good for me. But I need to start using the proper lube to keep the leading down.

[winelover]

Conicals, meant for BP revolvers, are tapered by design. This way they start easy, then shave a ring of lead, to seal the cylinder. I don't size, because it would remove the taper!

I cast mine out of pure lead. Too hard an alloy, you run the risk of damaging your seating leaver. I have been known to tumble them in Alox, though.

Winelover

[snowwolfe]

I was lucky enough to find Remington #10 caps but think I'll go back to the store and buy some more just to be safe. Also picked up a pound of Triple 7 FFFG for starters and a box of Hornady balls. Now I just need the revolver to show up:)
Next, a powder flask that will toss 30-35 grains. Recommendations?

[rodwha]

Were I you I'd pick up as many of those caps as possible without going too far overboard. They've become too hard to find for the last couple of years.

I've usually been buying my powder from Grafs and they've yet to have any caps in well over a year. It's forced me to pay two Hazmat fees...

Now I buy 10 tins at a time.

I use an adjustable powder measure meant for rifles that's calibrated in 10 grn increments. 5 grn increments is likely better for a handgun, but I like to use just one, and I have a .50 cal rifle too so I can take just the one out into the field.

[snowwolfe]

I took your advice and went back and bought five more tins. If you have a Bass Pro shop close to you check it out:)

[rodwha]

I recently bought 10 tins to go with the 3-4 I still had. But I might just buy more if I see them more reasonably priced (paid $105 IIRC) for them to my door. That's a stiff cost!

[M-Tecs]

Mr. Beliveau, using 40 grns of 3F Goex and a ball recorded a mere 812 fps and 217 ft/lbs of energy just beyond the muzzle. .

40 grns of 3F Swiss gives me 1104 fps in my 7 1/2"

Interesting threads here

http://forums.handloads.com/archive/forum_posts.asp?TID=11089&PN=1

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/handgun-hunting/ruger-old-army-for-deer/

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=113059

[snowwolfe]

The Remington caps were $7.99 per tin at Bass Pro.

[rodwha]

From what little comparison posts I've seen Swiss and Olde Eynsford give very similar (often slightly higher) velocities as Triple 7.

33 grns of 3F T7 gave Mr. Beliveau 1062 fps with a ball from a 7.5" ROA.

I have both T7 and Olde E and see no real difference. The recoil seems the same and the POI is the same with the same load.

10 tins would have cost me $86.39 with tax + gas here. I see BassPro is about 45 mins away. I might check on them next time I'm that way buying more beer brewing ingredients.

[snowwolfe]

Ordered a couple of Lee molds today, the round ball .457 and the 220 grain conical. Both should give me plenty of time at the range to determine which is the more accurate.
After accumulating metal for ages I find myself with no "plain" lead as I sold it all before my last move! Plenty of wheel weights and Lyman #2 so will order a small amount off Ebay.

[shdwlkr]

Seems to me that I used to use 3F and4F in my ROA, 457 round balls and grease over the cyclinders, caps were magnum caps I think. It has been a while since I was able to play with black powder firearms.
I switched to 3F powder for everything that shot black powder, yes even my 50 and 54 caliber ones just lower the charge by 10-15% and you are good to go and yes I used magnum caps on everything that they would fit on, made it easier when buying caps. Now I have no idea what is even available out there.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

snowwolf , what state are you in , I didn't see any one ask yet , check your regs , in Wisconsin, you can not use a black powder cap and ball during muzzle loading season as it loads into the cylinder and not the muzzle

that said the ROA is a fine gun

remember pull the nipples every time, clean and anti seize them , i bought one with 2 seized nipples last year I didn't know as i didn't pull them out before i bought it , the owner hadn't removed or used anti seize , that gun takes 30 dollars in nipples at once so take care of them , not to mention the time it took the smith to remove the 2 and that cost

the manual says you can't put to much black powder in it and still seat a ball

you probably want to try a lubed felt under the ball over the powder then find a load that will just seat flush or a touch under recoil is no issue as it is a heavy gun

[rodwha]

There's a company called ClassicBallistix that sells an aftermarket cylinder that holds an additional 5-10 grns of powder. In essence it would make it more like a Colt Dragoon.