swaging breakthrough, at least for us

[Bullshop]

BUMMER my post got ZAPPED!
Man I cant remember all that again,BUMMER!
Well to keep it simple I wanted to show a way we figured out to make heavier 6mm bullets from 22 lr cases.
What ya see in the pic top row is the components for a 100gn 6mm bullet.
Second row is the core seated in the 6mm jacket and a complete 22 bullet. We found it best to use a complete 22 bullet for the front half.
Last is a finished 100gn 6mm.
The target was fired today at about -30F range was 100 yards.
The remains of the fired bullet to the right of the finished bullet were recovered from a wood block. Randg to the block was about 20 yards. The recovered bullet weighed 90gn so lost only 10gn and was a perfect mushroom.
We unrolled it and sepperated the two cores. The shreded one was the lead core. These should make dandy game bullets and by adjusting the weight of the base core can be made in any weight. We made some with equal weight cores that weigh 110gn. Even at 110gn they are shorter than the Speer 105gn that works well in a 1/10" twist.
We tried the 110gn ers in a 1/10" twist 243 and the worked good.
The target shown was fired from a 1/10" twist 6/45 and the bullet weight was 100gn. Botton pic is one of our swaging setups.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010043.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010042.jpg

[MT Gianni]

NIce, Dan. If I see what I think I do, you are using a 22 Mag case for the base and a 22 lr for the tip? Fill the base with lead, set the nose and swag? Great idea. Gianni

[Ricochet]

Looks to me like a formed 6mm jacket cup has a lead core put in it, then a completed .22 bullet is set on top of that, and the whole thing is swaged. Sort of a partition bullet. Only it all comes apart. Interesting.

[Swagerman]

Wow! That is extremely impressive performance...you did good. :drinks:

Keep up the good work.

Jim

[Bullshop]

Gianni no both halves are with 22 lr thats the beauty of it.
Ricochet you got it right a double jacket, sorta partition.
Swagerman thank you sir!
We felt this was extreamly kewl and others would be interested.
We found that with only a single 22 lr jacket you cant go much over 60gn. You can extend the lead tip past the jacket just a little but if you have too much unsupported tip it will slump when fired and they become inaccurate. Yes it is simple to use 22 mag brass for jackets but they have to be trimmed so theres more work not to mention the cost of an accurate cut off tool. Since they are so abundantly available we wanted to stick with 22 lr cases. We are real excited about this. Kewl ha?
Got an idea for a partition but have to work out a cheap way to trim jackets. God willing there will be more testing to come.
Blessings to all
BIC/BS

[PatMarlin]

THat's awesome Daniel.. :drinks:

Do you swage your own .224 cal with the .22 LR brass?

[Bullshop]

Pat
Yes that is the first stage. We started by just seating the core in a jacket to form a 22 cal then using that for the forward half of a 6mm. We found that it would hang up on the ejector pin that way but using a fully formed 22 bullet for the front half solved the problem.
For the 110gn 6mm bullets its very simple. You start out with two jackets and two cores of the same weight, 10gn jacket and 45gn core. It does take twice the amount of lead and jackets than if you were to just shoot 22's, or put another way you gat twice the shooting with 22 cal. The thing is this way we are making basicly free scrap into worthy game bullets that are not limited to the velocity of cast boolits.
We are getting the RF cases from an indoor small bore range for .50 per lb. At 10gn per jacket thats what like 4900 per lb.. We are using pure lead for cores and we are paying .90 per lb for that. God willing I hope to try a ww base core with a pure lead nose core for just a bit tougher bullet. We have swaged ww cores and does not seem to be a problem, just have not tried it here yet.
We started this as a means for my boys to learn a bit about running a business. This whole deal is thier baby. They now have on auction, pre swaged cores, jackets, and bullets. These 6mms are too new and are not up yet but God willing they will add then to the list of thier offerings. Me I am the boolit man so leave the bullet making up to the boys. They are having way too much fun with R&D though. They tell me the results are not conclusive and they need to run the whole test series over again, prolly several times.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[MightyThor]

Got an idea for a partition but have to work out a cheap way to trim jackets.
BIC/BS

Depending on how much you have to trim off the case, I have been forming 22-250 brass out of 30-06 and you have to trim a quite a bit off the neck. I found that the little copper tubing cutters you buy at the hardware store worked well for me. the Kind I use have two rollers and a little cutting wheel like a pizza cutter and you roll it around the brass slowly tightening the thumbscrew until it cuts through. On a 22 case I think you could easily use one of these little units and if holding on to the work is a problem you could probably stick a wooden dowel inside the 22 while you cut it.

I have also been experimenting with a drill press with a case trimmer bit chucked up. I have a used both the LE Wilson case trimmer standing on end and also just the RCBS bit and the stops set on the press. I am still working on a system that will be both fast, accurate and safe. So far the Wilson case trimmer seems to work the best. It just needs to be mounted square to the chuck. Not sure how you would hold a 22 LR in a Wilson set up.

[LIMPINGJ]

Daniel what rifle are you shooting the 6X45 in? I do see the 6mm on the small Remington cases like you used to. Does this rifle fit into a special hunting situation for you or is just a holdover from benchrest days? If it fits a special task would you describe why it fit better than a 243 Win or 6mm Rem? Thanks for shareing your experiences.

[Bullshop]

LIMIPINGJ
My 6x45 is on a 700Rem short with a 24" barrel 1/10" twist set in an H&S presision stock.
It is one of two rifles I had built for fur hunting. The rifles were built by Slim Lambert formerly of Nome. Slim knows what it takes to build an accurate rifle.
The calibers of the two rifles were this one in 6x45 and another also a 700 Rem short but in 22/243 Middlestead with a 27" barrel 1/9" twist.
The reason for the two calibers was that one was for early season and mid range out to 300 yards max. In early season when there is a gulable new crop and winter has not yet spread things out the 6x45 to my thinking is perfect. Just a bit more power that a 223 but not overly destructive to fur at close range. If you compair paper balistics you see that with the 6x45 and 70 to 75gn bullets you get the velocity of the 22/250 with the same bullet weights but with the powder charge of the 223.
For the late season when they have smartened up and the winter snow and cold has eliminated most of the cover and things are more spread out and shots are generaly long the 22/243 Middlestead was just the ticket.
My working load in the Middlestead was with the 22 cal 80gn Sierra at 3500 fps. Anybody with balistics banging arround in thier head will see what that can do at long range. The wind bucking ability is incredable.
I am now working on a new barrel with 1x7" twist and looking at the new 22 cal 90gn Sierra. Its a work in progress.
To answer a part of your question about the 243/6mm I have nothing against those cartridges in fact the 6mm Rem is one of my favorites for the late season. Thats the thing right there the 243/6mm are a bit much for the up close shots I sometimes get in the early season. The only shortfall with factory rifles in factory chamberings is the twist used in the barrel. They are made for standard weight bullets so wont handle weights that excell at realy long range. When I talk of long range I am thinking more of wind drift than drop. Trajectory is no problem, we can calculate that awfuly close with gadgets we have today but wind is the real killer to long shooting. If you do a quick comparison of what we think of as factory screamers for long range in standard bullet weights available over the counter to custom heavy(think vld) bullet weights from custom quick twist barrels you see that it is a simple matter to cut wind drift in half.
Think about that, a coyote at say 40" long at a range that would drift a factory 220 swift bullet 20" with a center hold will mis but with the same hold and the high BC VLD bullet its a kill.
I found that when hunting for a living if my kill rate fell below about 85 to 90% of shots fired I was not making wages. If I kept it close to 100% I was making a good wage. In late winter the quick twist barrel high BC bullet at fairly high velocity helped emencly in keeping my numbers up.
I hope to have some info on the new 90gn Sierra soon. It aught to be a real hummer. If you talk to the Sierra techs they will not be helpful. All they say is the bullet is not intended for those speeds. Same ol same ol ever since they came out with the first 22 heavy 20 years ago the 69gn hpbt match.
Enough rambling for now!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[georgeld]

IF you could figure the shape and size's out to make a pinch off jacket cutter.
That would work good too. Though I'm not sure just where to start with it yet.

Man, I can't hardly believe doubling up on .22's and making a two part 6mm bullet.
That's ingenious as hell. Then to see the group shot with them is amazing.

I'm impressed with you guys. Thank you very much for posting.

[Bullshop]

Here is the problem we are faceing in making a true partition bullet. For the partition core, a core must be seated in a 22 jacket then trimmed. If the jackets are trimmed first then the cores seated the jacket often will collaps. So we need a jacket with a core seated flush with the jacket mouth. The only way I can see to get it is to seat the core then trim off excess jacket. Then take this jacket/core and incert it into the 6mm jacket with the closed end forward and fully seat it as a core. The next step would be to seat another lead core over the first then form into a bullet. That would produce a true partition bullet. God willing we will look into a tubeing cutter so the boys can add a partition bullet to thier list of offerings. Thier plan is to offer these at about $8.00 per 100 so aught to be attractive at todays prices for ammo and components.
We are selling ammo from our shop with these bullets but our sales for ammo are only local as hazmat fees prohibit shipping. We sure are having fun with this though.
We are waiting for better weather and for the caribou to come back and hope to try one of the dual core 100gn from a 243 win. If we get the chance we will be sure to report on it.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[MightyThor]

If you have the core seated and therefore don't have to worry about collapsing the jacket I think you might be able to grab the work in a collet or a drill chuck and either spin it or hold it while you spun a cutter bit against it. I did try the tubing cutter on a jacket and it worked but you have to use a brass rod rather than a dowel to keep from rolling a grove into the work. With a core seated you could not really get the rod in there.

[Red River Rick]

The only way I can see to get it is to seat the core then trim off excess jacket.

Dan:

There is a way to trim those cases to the required length, actually you could probably do this operation at the same time your "Ironing Out" the rim. Your existing "Draw" die could probably be used as well.

A new punch, as short as possible, replacing the existing "Draw Punch", should do the trick. The new punch has to be a couple of tenths smaller then the interior of your draw die (it must fit properly). The tip of the punch has a step machined on it with diameter of the interior of the case or the same as the draw punch. The length of this step will be determine by the length of the required jacket.

When case/jacket is pushed up into the draw die, the step pinches off the excess case. The now jacket, as usual, gets pushed thru the die. The remaining "scrap or small ring" could then be removed from the punch when it's retracted. A washer and spring, slipped over the punch, could be used as a stripper.

RRR

[georgeld]

Bullshop:
You DON'T need to pay HazMat fee for loaded ammo.

Just for powder and primers. Don't make sense, but, how many laws do??

Just have to lable it. There's a thread with a downloadable lable and details of the rule on that at: www.ammobrasstrader.com, then look for the thread: mailing loaded ammo. OR send Leonard a msg asking for the lable. I don't find mine right now.

It's a simple lable.

Question on that partition bullet. Do you put a 6mm jacket over both bullets? OR use the bottom one to make the connection between the two?

Thank you for the details, this IS interesting.

--------------------
RRRick: with a punch like you explained that couldn't be a one step operation. OTherwise the case would be pushed all the way thru the die before the step cuts it off. But, yes, that sounds like a good cure. With a few punches on hand for various lengths of jackets that could give a variety of wts fairly easy.

Good idea.

[LIMPINGJ]

Daniel thanks for the details of your use of the little 6mm for your hunting needs. An idea on how to trim the jackets is to use a die grinder with a cutoff wheel. The ready to trim jacket could be inserted into a piece of the correct length die (like a file trim die) then just touch the cutoff wheel to the exposed jacket. You might have to also make some kind of debur tool. Keep up with the notes on your progress very interesting reading.

[georgeld]

some of the guys on saubier.com have bought a Mini Chop Saw from Harbor Frght for about $20 to shorten brass with. Just another idea.
Thats going to leave a burr, but, most things do.

[Scrounger]

Print and stick on package. Size doesn't matter.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o9/artcompton/ORMDLabelMedium.gif

[georgeld]

There ya go, great, thank you!!

[Bullshop]

BS Mom is telling me that the labels are for UPS not USPS. We do not have regular access to UPS as they are in Fairbanks 130 miles away.
I will like to find one of those harber freight tools. We have rigged up a test tool with vice and clamps using a dremel with cut off wheel. It is muchly a Dr. Seuse arrangment but worked of a fashion.
Dave Corbin sells the die/punch type tube cutter but WOW are they expensive. What I am thinking is a collet to be used in a lathe chuck. The idea is that a core could be seated in a jacket with a bit of extra core then wanted. The core/jacket could then be set in the collet that would act as a depth stop. This could be quick and that is going to be important here, not just getting it done but getting it done fast,at least for us.
The cut could then be made at a point that the jacket is still supported buy core on the inside. If it could be rigged up to have that dremel type cut off wheel set on the cross slide the cut would be real fast. Just thinking out loud here. If not then a cut off tool could be fed a little slower. This way the burr would be on the inside so wouldnt matter much.
Anyway I am thinking that harber freight tool with a little fixture for a depth holder would be fast and accurate, the two things we need for trimming jackets.
Looks like no caribou huntin for awhile. It supposed to stay in the -30's for a time.
It just aint near as much fun when its cold. Still got two months of season though.
After that we will be thinking bear huntin.
We are already making plans for my two oldest boys age 14 and 12 years and myself as guide to do a snow camp spring bear hunt. We will have to snowshoe in and drag all supplies on a sled to get to the mountains. Wont be using a 243 for that one though.
I better get to work. Does this count as post 1882? Oyvay!
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Red River Rick]

RRRick: with a punch like you explained that couldn't be a one step operation. OTherwise the case would be pushed all the way thru the die before the step cuts it off. But, yes, that sounds like a good cure. With a few punches on hand for various lengths of jackets that could give a variety of wts fairly easy.

georgeld: I didn't realize that you where a Tool & Die Maker. I guess the tooling that I use on my CHP-1 for shortening jackets doesn't exists.


RRR

[georgeld]

Rick:
I'm not qualified as one. But, I've made a bunch of tools and some dies for my own use's.

You guys that have access to oil field pipe and sucker rod would be doing yourselve's a great favor by gathering up a few lengths of both.

That sucker rod is fantastic tool steel with the right tempering. I've made center punches, and chisels by the dozens or more. They WILL hold an edge too. I made one chisel with a rounded cutting edge sharpened on both sides for drilling rock and concrete. This particular one. Drilled three hole's clear thru the 8" foundation and two more thru the 4" top of the old porch and never needed a touch up on the cuttng edge.

Some have been used to chisel steel many times. Do wish I could get a couple lengths of 3/4 and inch , maybe 1 1/2" dia.

To temper it. I forge the end exactly, and make a close edge grind. THEN heat it with a torch to a decent red, let it cool down to a medium pink and quench in cold water until it's cold.

For the heads so they won't mushroom over, same heat, but ,let it cool down til the pink is gone out of it then a few seconds dunking, take it out a few, then again til cold. You'll dimple the face of your hammers.

Gotta watch it though. first time I tempered the heads. Got it too hard and chipped sliver about an inch long x 1/8" wide that buried itself into my brisket. Talk about hurt! That thing was hot and sharp like a needle.

Made one for a buddy to clean ceramic tile off a big old kitchen floor from a hospital while standing. Just too big a job to do it on their knee's. Claims that was a lifesaver. Building and two others like it I guess were around 100 ft sq rooms and all the tile had to be cleaned off and the bedding chipped clean. Hasn't ever had to put another edge on yet.

Like I said, get some sucker rod if you can and make these kind of tools.

[JBMauser]

Bullshop, can I ask about your process in rank amature language? You take a 22. lr case and set it into a die you have made that is something less than 6mm. you run a ram with a rounded tip into it to open it up and make a case similar to a capsule for medicine. you do the same with another smaller die so that the two fit inside each other like a capsule. Once you have the two sides you drop in a led core and ram the entire assembly into a finished bullet swag die with the larger jacket at the bottom. Is this the jist of the process? Do the two cases have to be vented? Could the .22 case go up to 6.5mm? I have a lot to learn here. JB

[Bullshop]

JB
Yes you have the jist of it but not exactly right. Starting with a fired 22 lr case the process goes like this. First they are cleaned to get the primer gritt out. I tumble in hot dish water for this. Next they have to be anield to soften them. Without softenning the noses tend to fold over in the point form die. We do this in a pair of metal cans that fit closley one inside the other. They hold about half a gallon which is alot of jackets. Just fill the cans and in the wood stove they go for about 15 minutes. When they come out you can flatten them out between your fingers. Next they are run through a die as you said to iron out the rim to leave a straight cylender.
At this point it is a jacket that can be used for both 22 and 6mm, but is still well undersize for both. Next is where the two calibers get sepperated, in the core seat opperation. The cores must be fully seated in each case to fully fill out the jacket core combo to nearly its full diameter for its caliber. Each will require its own die and punch. The only differance between the 22 and 6mm jacket is the 6mm has to have a bit of a flare to the mouth so the punch can enter without hanging up and chrshing the jacket.
After the core is seated each will be nearly the correct daimeter for its caliber, but not quite.
OK so now we have two straight cylenders with lead cores seated, one of 6mm and one of 22 cal. There are two ways to go here. You can combine the two halves at this point in the point form die which is OK. We found that if formed at this point the finished bullet would hang on the ejector pin and slow the process. This may only be a quirk of our die set as they were made for lighter bullets for BR shooting. A set of dies made for heavier/longer bullets may not do this. Anyway we found that if the front half was pree formed into a complete 22 cal bullet we didnt have the hang up problem.
Since we also have dies for 22 cal its no problem.
There are some detales with die and punch adjustment but for the most part that is it.
Sounds like a lot of work but goes pretty fast if your tools are set up to eliminate any wasted motion. Having 4 boys eager to help, learn, and shoot is a big help too.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[teddyblu]

Bullshop:
Do you make your own jacket die sets. If so what size do you ream the 6mm point up die.
.242 before polish?? thoughts appreciated using D reamers

Larry

[georgeld]

Have any of you made the 6mm/243's from 22 mag brass? Iv'e read where that works real good. But, the only lr bullets I've seen have been for .224".

This doubling up, oh man!! (some people and their kids!!) right? haha!
Hell of an idea!

[Bullshop]

teddyblu
No but I wish I did. We have gotten what ever swaging tools we have from watching the auctions like a hawk.
The 6mm stuff was listed at the D Corbin site on the clasified section. It was a complete bench rest set with 4 presses. It had been listed for quite some time by a shooters widow but no one looked into it. She just wanted to find a good home for them with someone that would use them. After just a short intruduction from us she gave us a great deal. She got what she wanted.

georgeld
Yes the 22 mag case works good for a heavy 6mm and can even go up to 25 cal. The problem with them at least for us is finding a good supply. The 22 lr cases we are getting for scrap price @ .50 per lb from our local indoor small bore range. A 22 lr case weighs 10gn so there are 700 to the lb. 700 clean new jackets for .50 is a good deal. J-4 commercial jackets are about .075 each the last time I checked. They are likely more now. We are not trying to make BR bullets. We just want cheap bullets that shoot perty good. If they will shoot to the average capability of the average out of the box sporter thats good nuf. They seem to do that.
BIC/BS

[georgeld]

I agree with that accuracy assumption and goal.
Am figuring IF I can make swaged bullits that will shoot 1-1.5" @ 100yds that's
good enough. It's getting to the point that's about all I'm capable of now.

Once I get started at it, fully intend to make .17's about 20-25gr. For that, I'm sure
a cut off jacket swager will be needed.

What about older case's that have been laying on the ground long enough to turn
black. Can those be used if not smashed? The local pistol range sells their brass to
a salvage yard now. To buy it back costs $3lb. I've hand picked a few pounds out
but, that gets expensive quick. It used to be the range held it back til they had a
30 gal garbage can full of everything. Damn, wish now I'd brought a couple buckets
of .22's home. Those days they were begging us to take it as they were running out
of space and scrap price wasnt' worth hauling it away. I did fill many buckets full of
reloadable brass. Much of it I still have, or have traded it off.

Several months ago a fellow on ammobrasstrader.com was getting into it and promised
to send me a few hundred bullits once he got them made in trade for a flat rate box full
of .22's. I mailed them gratis in hopes of getting the results. Needless to say I've lost
track of who it was and he's long ago stopped corresponding. That box weighed
around 33lbs the way I recall it.

[pjh421]

Maybe your jackets are collapsing when you first trim and then seat cores because the cut edge of the jacket catches on the core seating punch. If you lightly expand the jacket mouth before inserting the core to be seated the edge of the jacket mouth would then be out of the way of the punch edges...if that's the problem.

Paul

[acemedic13]

This is hands down the most informative thread on swaging I have read to date! Thanks for all the great insight and willingness to share Bullshop.