are we losing something?

[runfiverun]

are we losing the skill we used to have in reloading?
I was making up some loads for the 220 swift today and after neck sizing the cases, I took them out and run them through the auto-annealer.
and it got me to thinking.
I have auto-mated tools for just about everything I do. [back up hand tools too]
annealing, stainless pin tumbler, automatic powder dump, primer tube fillers, motorized trimmer, motorized champhering/primer pocket uniformer/flash hole de-burrer tool, a Dillon 650 with motorized case feeder...
I realized that even though I don't use those tools every time [heck most of the time] I do rely on them for many things.

so have we lost some of our 'skill' in reloading?
the ability to read a dial, or feel the press, or feel the boolit sizer being off just a little bit.
maybe it's not a loss of skill but more of a need for speed in today's world??

so what's yall's thoughts on the matter?

[725]

Not me. I don't have those fancy things. This is as good as it gets for me.

[WALLNUTT]

I don't have any of those and do just fine. I load a couple hundred rounds a week on a Rockchucker.

[62chevy]

The big advancement for me was getting a tumbler this year. Still soak in citric acid and dawn but had to use a Scotch Bright to get them really clean and now the tumbler gets them bright and clean. Also went from the very slow but effective Lee Loader the the Lee Classic Turret press. Both are real time savers. Maybe next year I can get a bottom pour pot and speed up my boolit making. :mrgreen:

[wquiles]

Are we loosing something? Perhaps, but every decision we make involves some sort of compromise.

In this case, Yes, but we also gain time (and potentially achieve less variability, and end up with higher quality ammo). But even with no gains on quality, as I get older, time becomes more and more valuable. So if I can "gain" time on by automating some aspects/operations, and that means I can have more time for other things I enjoy more, to me that is a good compromise.

[shoot-n-lead]

I may have lost'em, but I don't miss'em. I don't plan to go back...could if I wanted to...just don't want to.

[Beagle333]

I know I haven't gotten too fancy. I don't tumble my brass, I weigh every charge on my beam scales and use loading blocks, and I load everything with a Lee hand press or a whack-a-mole kit. 'Never owned a turret and don't even have a single stage press set up for anything but gas check making.

[EDG]

I have a battery powdered drill to do some of those mundane tedious jobs and a motorized powder dispenser.
Everything else I still do by hand. I am always amazed at those that talk speed speed speed when talking about reloading.

[tazman]

I just recently upgraded from a single stage press to a turret. That is the only "automated" machine I have. Everything is still checked and tested by hand. If I have "lost" Any skills, I never had them to start with.

[gpidaho]

So good to be retired! Now I reload for the fun of reloading and shoot to get the plugs out of the cases. Thankful to have some great kids in the family to help with that. They are always there to help an old man. Thoughtful of them. Most automated thing I still own is a Redding T-7, sold the progressive stuff. Back to basics if several thousand dollars of every kind of trinket can be called basic! GP

[country gent]

When shooting high power rifle I went to progressive press and some "state of the art" equipment to speed the process. I am now reverting back to the old ways with BPCR. But Im waiting for the first cnc case prep center drop case in hit button uniforms primer pocket, tool change and deburrs flash hole, reams flas hole, tool change and turns neck, tool change and trims deburring with choice of chamfers. We go to the modern mechanicized set ups in the name of speed or consistency. Annealing is a good example used to be pan of water and tourch heat red and knock over. Now a timed rotation thru the tourches with controlled rotation to the drop point again a controlled time.Which is going to be the more consistent? Another is case trimming, the newer trimmers are not only faster but as or more consistent.

[35 shooter]

I just recently upgraded from a single stage press to a turret. That is the only "automated" machine I have. Everything is still checked and tested by hand. If I have "lost" Any skills, I never had them to start with.

LOL..same here, except my upgrade was going from a rock chuck single stage press to a lee hand held press. No loss in the accuracy department and i love being able to set up anywhere to load with it.
If i were into competition, i might consider some upgrades for more speed. I don't even use my forster case trimmer anymore unless something needs to be trimmed to some custom length because of chamber dimensions, and just use lee hand trimmers...talk about slow and hands on!!!

[Doc Highwall]

I don't think we are losing something, I think we are making better use of our time and the application of using tools allow us to do a better job making us more aware of quality reloads.

[Artful]

No, 'cuz I can always go back to manual (and do periodically) and think my time is more valuable as I age out.

[Bzcraig]

I use a turret press and must fight the desire to buy a progressive. I really enjoy the whole process of casting and reloading but I also enjoy having the 'latest & greatest.' Thankfully the wallet isn't big enough to support my want glands. I find myself out in the garage, where my loading bench is, wanting to tinker but have several months worth of boolits poured, rounds loaded, and boolits coated. If I had a progressive I would get really bored.

[DrCaveman]

Depends on the objective

A bunch of 45 acp rounds for fast plinking...we've not lost a thing, but pobably gained

38 wadcutters, same deal

30-30 hunting rounds, and yeah, probably lost touch with final product

Id say that if you are planning to extinguish a life with it, then ditch automation. Have a direct hand in the development, start to finish. Finish meaning kill. Otherwise it is a boon to shooting

[paul edward]

If necessity is the mother of invention, then surely the other parent must be inspired laziness, ie: There has to be a better way to to this.

Skills stay with you. They may get a bit rusty from lack of use, but will come back when needed.

You might need to dig out that old Lee Loader and reload a few.

[retread]

I use a Dillon 550 for all pistol loading because I shoot a lot more of it. But I still load rifle on the Rockchucker, weigh every load etc. I just makes me feel better, it's the way I started 53 years ago and is still satisfying to me.

[762 shooter]

Time saving devices give you more time to use other time saving devices to save more time.

One day I saved so much time it became yesterday.

762

[slide]

I load for myself, my son, and his girlfriend. The tools allow me to do that. I think the skills will stay with you.

[Plastikosmd]

losing, maybe
gaining also, for me it is time, to load more, shoot more etc

[mozeppa]

i want to shoot more...so i'm building a machine thats very much like a washing machine...or blender!

dump in brass...powder...primers and projectiles ...and whe the buzzer goes off , VOILA! you have finished clean and shiney cartridges to shoot!

(leave the room during the spin cycle...it can be a killer!...you can patch the walls later.)

[GhostHawk]

Single stage here, I'm in no hurry so I don't mind taking my time over each round.

I do have the advantage of not having a job to go to.

I don't think a lot is actually lost. Some stuff might get misplaced for a bit until one of us slow and steady guys shows up.

But I don't think lost.

[Gtek]

Two Chuckers, hand crank reamers, a lot of single cavity blocks, yes Sir! Every other part of my waking hours seems to be go-go-go. Shut the door in "The Room" or out back over the pot is ME time preparing for ME range time. Low and slow in the happy place.

[captaint]

The only tools I plug in are the tumblers. Oh, and the Star. That's it.

[1johnlb]

are we losing the skill we used to have in reloading?
I was making up some loads for the 220 swift today and after neck sizing the cases, I took them out and run them through the auto-annealer.
and it got me to thinking.
I have auto-mated tools for just about everything I do. [back up hand tools too]
annealing, stainless pin tumbler, automatic powder dump, primer tube fillers, motorized trimmer, motorized champhering/primer pocket uniformer/flash hole de-burrer tool, a Dillon 650 with motorized case feeder...
I realized that even though I don't use those tools every time [heck most of the time] I do rely on them for many things.

so have we lost some of our 'skill' in reloading?
the ability to read a dial, or feel the press, or feel the boolit sizer being off just a little bit.
maybe it's not a loss of skill but more of a need for speed in today's world??

so what's yall's thoughts on the matter?


Dude! I thought I had it bad!

Melt more lead , load more bullets, shoot more guns!

Don't be alarmed, those fillings will pass.

If your reloading bench is bigger than your living room, you might be a addict!

[IraqVet1982]

I have both manual and automated tools and with both I've found that some are like snake oil. But I learn something new from this forum and hands on experience everyday.

Hell, now I'm exploring how to load black powder in pistol cartridges in case I run out of smokeless.

Unfortunately I live in an urban area that doesn't afford me the ability to shoot as often as I want but someday hopefully.

All that being said, I know more today than I did yesterday, so I am not worried about losing skills.

[rhead]

If necessity is the mother of invention, then surely the other parent must be inspired laziness, ie: There has to be a better way to to this.

Skills stay with you. They may get a bit rusty from lack of use, but will come back when needed.

You might need to dig out that old Lee Loader and reload a few.


Necessity is also sometimes the child of invention. Did you parents find these things necessary?

I find myself having to think about how to read a vernier scale. There was a time when i could do the mathematical proof of why one works. I now use electricity to melt my alloy instead of charcoal. I have a table with an overhead flood light to inspect powder levels in charged cases, I do have a tumbler. Most of my reloading is done on a Rock Chucker. I use an All American turrent press for high volume loading. Lyman 55 powder measure and a RCBS 505 powder scale take care of the powder handling.

[Cherokee]

I don't think I have lost a thing, but I'm not "fully automated" like some folks. I have and use a 650 frequently, but I still load small batches on the RCBS Jr and the CH 4 station presses. I still prep cases amd prime them by hand. Although retired, I could not shoot the 5-600 rounds a week that I do without the 650 and still get other life things done.

[GARD72977]

Time is important to me. I shoot IDPA, Muzzleloader Competition, Air gun silhouette (postal only) and 10m pistol postal match. I load with a Dillon 650 and cast with a Master Caster and size with a Ballisticast sizer. I only shot 9mm pistol and almost no cartridge rifle but have a single stage Rock Chucker. I have become streamlined and efficient.

There was a time when I had so many die sets that they would not fit on one shelf. I was proud of all the different stuff. Now it is all gone or working on getting rid of it.

What I have gained is a being happy with my shooting life now. Im not a gadget person but if it helps me make a better bullet or loaded round faster then I want it.

[Wayne Smith]

Years ago, either here or on Shooters.com, we had a thread "Do you shoot to load or do you load to shoot?" I think we reprised that years ago here with the word changed to "cast".

I think how one answers the above question(s) will inform if not direct the answer to this one. Some have fun casting and loading and shooting is incidental. No way we would automate an enjoyable process. Some load so they can shoot hundreds or thousands of rounds a week. They need to automate as much as possible. And, no, Run, I don't think they have lost anything that they had to begin with!

[Hickory]

In the OP the main question is;
are we losing the skill we used to have in reloading?

After thinking about it a bit, my conclusion would be, it's like riding a bicycle when you start out as a youth in your first attempts in self transportation, and then graduate to a motorcycle or car or truck.
With the motorcycle you can do everything that you can do with a bicycle only with less effort and more efficiently.
And you can after years of not even considering riding a bike, get on one and go without any problems what-so-ever.

As long as you have the KNOW HOW you can always go back to the basics of reloading.

[smokeywolf]

My only volume oriented mechanization is a vibratory tumbler and I motorized my old Wilson case trimmer. Anneal using the old drill motor and socket method. Still using the same Hollywood single stage and Hollywood powder measure that dad used in the 1950s. No digital scales. Weigh 90+ percent of all charges on an old Redding oil damped and weigh all finished cartridges on an Ohaus 3100. Clean, ream, chamfer, deburr case mouths, primer pockets and flash holes by hand.

Someday I'll happen on a good deal on a Hollywood turret AND have the money at that very moment. And, because annealing is a bit of a drag I may one day build myself an auto annealer.

The rest of it is both enjoyable and therapeutic.

Also have to agree with Hickory on the bicycle analogy.

Good thread Lamar.

smokeywolf

[dudel]

Losing something? Possibly, but those interested in speed are willing to make the tradeoff to produce more ammo. Some like the product; others enjoy the process. If you enjoy the process, then you choose to spend the time crafting each round. If you like the product, then you get as many tools as you can that will give you more product.

I think someone who enjoys the process, tends to build more skills than one who prefers product.

It's all about choices.

[texassako]

I don't think anyone is losing a skill, just using a different tool to get the job done. There may be tricks and nuances to each tool that may be lost. I have yet to see someone on here say "I need help loading with this single stage press, been using my Dillon so long I forgot how it works."

[fivegunner]

Run Fiver Run ,I think we are making better ammo, and saving time doing it! :Fire::Fire::castmine:

[DeanWinchester]

You may be right. I used to think I knew what I was doing with a .308.

What a deluded fool I am.

[osteodoc08]

Handloading is an artform. It takes years and decades to learn all its intricies. I am still learning and growing. Heck, not too long ago I made it through my first brick of primers without losing one or screwing up a case. That was a milestone for me. I dont think its lost, but the equipment is better and makes it easier. I think the finer points of handloading perhaps are not passed down as much since we have a large population of new reloaders without much in the way of formal teaching as an apprentice.

[tomme boy]

When I was younger I used to just ride a bicycle. Then along came the freestyle bike fad of the 80's. I became one heck of a bike rider. We used to go to competitions and do shows at the local fairs. We had our own 1/2 pipes and 1/4 pipes. I really miss being on the 1/2 pipe 20 feet in the air with 2 other riders at the same time. The skill involved progressed to an expert level. I had all of the new safety equipment. The latest bikes and equipment for them. I would love to do this today again. But the shape of my back and legs and shoulders are in now is from all of the crashes I was in trying to get as good as I was.

The same can be said for reloading. It just makes you a better reloader "IF" you know how to use it.

[big bore 99]

I only reload for myself and do it all the old-fashioned way. Use a single stage press and sometimes a Lee Loader. Those who may reload for others, I can see the "automation process". Myself, I enjoy the process. So why would I change?

[DeanWinchester]

I think it boils down to the difference between handloaders and reloaders.

We live in a world that demands instant gratification. Companies like Dillion have made good business making quality products that give quick satisfaction. Well, after set up and learning curve.
I still do everything on a single stage. Always will.

[waco]

I have a Dillon 550 and a rockchucker. Besides my RCBS charge master 1500, all my tools are manual. Part of the fun of reloading for me. A power case trimmer would be sweet though. I don't enjoy hand trimmer brass on the fosters.

[DeanWinchester]

I do gotta go with Waco on trimming. My Little Crow WFT trimmer is a slice of heaven when trimming a couple thousand .223's

[plainsman456]

The closest i have got to speed in reloading is with shotshells.
I still have 2 trimmers with cranks and sometimes i think about putting a motor on 1 of them.
Still load both pistol and rifle on the rockchucker press and after seeing some of the foul ups with a progressive,don't think i want to go there.
My reloading time to me is therapy,time to slow down and take my time with making a good reliable product.
It's good for the soul.

[dtknowles]

Losing something? Possibly, but those interested in speed are willing to make the tradeoff to produce more ammo. Some like the product; others enjoy the process. If you enjoy the process, then you choose to spend the time crafting each round. If you like the product, then you get as many tools as you can that will give you more product.

I think someone who enjoys the process, tends to build more skills than one who prefers product.

It's all about choices.

I agree it is about choices but I disagree that one who enjoys the process builds more skills than one who enjoys the product. It is not a given, could be or could not be. Depends, if you enjoy doing what you have been doing for years and don't change anything you aren't learning much. If you spend all your time at the bench handloading ammo and don't put in quality range time you aren't learning much about that ammo or shooting. Clearly some of my old skills are getting rusty while I learn new skills. Example, my offhand pistol shooting is not as good as when I practiced each week now that I am shooting benchrest rifles most weekends.

Tim

[Harter66]

About 3 yr ago I loaded 500 9mm ,200 x39s and a couple hundred other rifle rounds.I loaded them w/ just the assistance of a powder measure to speed things up. Last spring I acquired a Load Master and after getting through a brief learning curve cranked out 250 45 Colts in all tolled about an hour and a half. That would have been a boon on the marathon 2 yrs ago. There will be new shell holders for the progressive before another marathon for pistol ammo for sure.
As some one else said though I prefer to follow the hunting ammo through every step from a new case to the table,even for scatterguns.

I think the only real loss w/speed tools is the intimacy of touching every round in every step. In the beginning that is important.
I don't think the step from the single stage to a basic progressive is a lot different than jumping from a 1 or 2 C mould to a 6,8,10,12 or 18 C mould, and what I wouldn't give for 380/454 12C RB.

[Whitespider]

Losing something?? Not me.
Other than the tumbler I have no electric gadgets of any sort, I don't even have a progressive or turret press... heck, I don't even have a "real" casting pot, I dip from cast iron cookware.
I'm not big into gadgets... I do have an auto-darkening welding helmet though.
*

[crowbuster]

Lotta good replies. I have old a new and jump back and forth depending. Dead batt. in digital calipers yesterday, dusted off the dial calipers, didnt miss a beat. All hunting loads still done buy hand weighing every charge. I ts just what i do. LNL for high volume pistol. Best of both worlds to me. Just some things to make the job easier or faster. Hate case prep hand work, rcbs prep station goood. Still know the old ways, just like faster sometimes.

[Love Life]

You only lose the skills you allow yourself to lose.

Also, I'll be glad when people stop using Mike Veturino's article as their own material...

[runfiverun]

Dude! I thought I had it bad!

Melt more lead , load more bullets, shoot more guns!

Don't be alarmed, those fillings will pass.

If your reloading bench is bigger than your living room, you might be a addict!

umm that's benches.
one in a U shape in the 'gun room' and the little one in the basement where some of everything shot shell and metallic reloading related, aaand some of the loaded ammo is stored.
plus one-2-3 err 4 for reloading/casting/swaging tools in the used to be a garage err casting shop err hmm.
I need more room.

[Tom W.]

Uhhhh, face it, we're getting older. Arthritis limits our movements, and little niceties allow us to keep on with our hobby that much longer....

[**oneshot**]

Its not the skill thats lost, just the time to do it. This from someone who owns a few reloading do dads and still uses a ladle and a singlestage press.

[Kraschenbirn]

For me, it mostly depends upon what I'm reloading. Other than my (2) tumblers...one rotary and one vibrator...the only power equipment I use is a drill press for trimming cases. I've got (2) Dillons...my old 450 stays set-up for .44 Spl/.44 Mag and my SDB gets swapped back and forth between .45 ACP and .38 Spl. These are calibers I run off in pretty much in 'bulk' quantities...like I won't load powder or primers into either to load less than 500 rounds.

For CF rifle, though, I prefer the "old-fashioned way". Currently, I've got a Rockchucker and two Lee Classics and, working from a stock of prepped cases (sized/deprimed/cleaned), I can easily turn out 50 rounds an hour without any stress. This afternoon, I ran off 250 rounds of .32-20 for the Low Wall in just under 4 hours using the RC, a Lee AutoPrime, my Lyman 55 Measure, and one of the Lees (set up for seating).

Bill

[TXGunNut]

Other than case cleaning and powder measuring I don't use much automation. Case annealer sounds good but for the volume I shoot I'll be ahead to just buy new cases. Case prep centers around a Lee Zip Trim for me. Yes, it looks silly but I think it works quite well. I can't see how a trimmer that indexes on the neck can work as well but what do I know?
I don't think it takes any less skill to utilize an automated process and in most cases we don't lose anything in the way of quality. It's possible we lose a little satisfaction or even confidence in our work but I guess that varies from loading bench to loading bench.

[Digital Dan]

I think the perfect tool for teaching someone the art of offhand shooting is a quality flint lock rifle. Likewise, to teach handloading the best tools are the basics, and muscle powered. They have served well for decades and I see no reason to change my methods.

[waksupi]

I think the perfect tool for teaching someone the art of offhand shooting is a quality flint lock rifle.

That has been my thoughts for years. Most of our top shooters in this area, shoot flint.

[milkman]

I use a single stage press, 1 or 2 cavity molds, dip lube and make most of my checks with a die set that requires 3 operations for each check. My only "automation" is the quick change bushings on my lee press.

With that said, I don't think I would be nearly as good at starting to move a trailer uphill with a manual transmission as I used to be, but there is no way I would willingly give up my automatic transmission.

[meadmkr]

I'm a long time believer in "work smarter, not harder".

Some of my buddies USED to laugh when they saw how many loaded mags I brought to the range. Range time is too precious these days to "waste" time reloading your 2 magazines. Reloading to me is the same way.

When many of us started reloading (was 30+ years ago for me) there were few gadgets yet alone ones a junior enlisted guy could afford. Even today many new to the craft don't have the funds for some of the time/labor saving tools we have available today. I have both a LnL as well as a newer RockChucker. The RC is used primarily for things like case forming, depriming crimped rounds and for loading hunting or "precision" rounds. The rest is generally done on the progressive. I tend to do "batch loading" where I generally do one step like depriming/resizing one day and the other operations another. There are very few days that I will load end-to-end and this includes shot shells. Even though I have a MEC 650 I tend to use the Jr for depriming and after sorting/inspecting the hulls I load them in batches on the 650 to save time. While some might see this as less efficient I find it easier as I have everything staged when I'm ready to produce a quantity of consistent ammo.

[Pb2au]

No.
just because you have say a nice Dillon press with all the bells and whistles, doesn't negate what you learned.
it still has to be set up, the dies have to be adjusted and so on. So, if you don't know how to set up dies for example, it won't matter if you are setting up a modest Lee hand press or a top of the line Cadillac Dillion.
I hear often people throwing rocks against CNC equipment as a poor crutch to replace skill. It is no different. If you don't understand machining, you won't be successfully with a high end Haas machining center. It simply automates aspects of a process.

[ProfGAB101]

Automation has allowed shooters to expand what they do - both in volume of rounds, and variety of cartridges. Now maybe throw in shotgun loading with both shot and slugs. If the power goes out I'm not dead in the water, I still have ways to do things old school.

[Alan in Vermont]

It just makes you a better reloader "IF" you know how to use it.

+1 on that!

There are a boatload of "gadgets" available now, compared to 1970ish when I started reloading. If you've got wallet enough you can buy all sorts of widgets that claim to do all manner of things to improve your ammunition. Most of them excel at liberating the gullible from their cash but little else. I'm seeing quite a percentage of younger(under 40) who don't have much idea of the basics but own multiple gadgets in the belief that if you have all the trinkets you don't need to bother learning much.

My son bought a progressive press way too early into his reloading experience. It allowed him to, quite rapidly, create quite a lof of mediocre ammunition.

[HangFireW8]

If all the gadgets are used skillfully, they will produce consistent handloads that will produce consistent results. If they are just used to speed up bad handloading, you have high production of bad handloads.