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cbr
01-28-2008, 12:46 PM
Hi, Ive been lurking here for about a year and learned tons about the art of casting from you guys. I have successfully been casting and shooting .45 auto in a 1911, .40 S&W in a glock 23 (light loads with factory barrel by the way, accurate and no leading), .38 special, and 8mm mauser. I have used all lee 2 cavity molds.

Now for my qestion, I just purchased a lee 120 grain TC (356-120-tc) six cavity for a 9mm S&W M&P, and was amazed at how many bullets you can crank out with these in a couple hours! Now after applying LLA, I went to load them and found if I load these to the usual minumum recommended OAL of about 1.11 the lube groove is not inside the case. To get the groove all the way inside the case I have to seat it to about 1.075. Is this deep enough to increase the pressure and make this round unsafe? I will be using titegroup, accurate #2, or unique powder. I tried to search this forum for info on this bullet, but couldn't find anything. Thanks.

S.R.Custom
01-28-2008, 12:54 PM
You do indeed seat TC bullets deeper...

As far as feeding in the pistol goes, TC bullets think they are longer than they are, owing to the fact that the edge of the flat nose hits the feed ramp at just about the same point on the bullet as that same point of the longer round nose bullet.

As for pressures, the TC is a squatter design, so even tho the bullet is seated "deeper," volumewise, there is actually just as much bullet inside the case. Pressures are not adversely affected by seating the TC deep enough to function correctly.

Larry Gibson
01-28-2008, 12:56 PM
I use that bullet in my 9mm CZ75 loaded to a shorter OAL as you mention. I use 4 gr of Bukkseye and the CZ loves them. Work up loads using your powders with the bullets seated as you want them.

Larry Gibson

Cloudpeak
01-28-2008, 01:10 PM
Let us know what your accurate loads are with this bullet. I have the Lee 124 gr RN mold and haven't been able to dial in an accurate load with this bullet using W231 in my M&P 9mm full size. I can shoot a 1.4" group off a bench at 48 feet with WWB 115 gr. clad rounds but the best I can do with the Lee 124 gr nd W231 at this range is 3.3". I shot a group of .71" offhand at 7 yards with the WWB but groups OH at 7 yds with the 124 Lee are 1.3".

Cloudpeak

robertbank
01-28-2008, 01:16 PM
With the 124gr bullet try 4.1 gr Win 231. I shoot a truncated cone 124 gr Lyman bullet and this load is very accurate in all my nines. SD's under ten over my Chrony.

Take Care

Bob

Cloudpeak
01-28-2008, 01:24 PM
With the 124gr bullet try 4.1 gr Win 231. I shoot a truncated cone 124 gr Lyman bullet and this load is very accurate in all my nines. SD's under ten over my Chrony.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

I went up to 4.0 grains when working up loads and it shot a bench group of .78" at 21 feet. I didn't shoot that load at 48 feet, though. Do you water drop or air cool your bullets? I was hoping to come up with a soft shooting load for steel plates.

Thanks, Cloudpeak (another Bob)

MeestaSparkle
01-28-2008, 01:46 PM
I have been using up some meister TC 122 grain, and I seat them to 1.040" overall length and have not had any problems. That's the length that just barely gets the lube groove completely into the case for those.

cbr
01-28-2008, 02:07 PM
Thanks for the quick replys guys! I guess I will just seat them a little deeper and give them a try. Hopefully I will get to shoot them later this week. Meestasparkle, what powder are you using with the meister 122 grains at 1.040?

Thanks, CBR

robertbank
01-28-2008, 02:29 PM
I water drop them all. Easier for me to drop them in water than fool around with towels etc to catch them. I use Felix lube and size them .357. 4.1 gr is a little faster than I need for IDPA but they cycle my nines and the cases eject quickly. I was loading 3.9 gr which is very good as well but found in my Tanfoglio with a 5" barrel the rounds were just ejecting and I didn't want a jam in the middle of a competition. I use 4.1 gr in my HP's . STI Trojan and S&W M&P. I just sold my CZ85 made in 1988. It too handled this load with ease with excellent accuracy.

Take Care

Bob

Doble Troble
01-28-2008, 04:48 PM
I seat them over 4.5 gr Unique until the last ring is sticking out.

This feeds well in: a hi-power and one of the new Ruger SR9s (that I really like even though its plastic).

I wouldn't call it accurate, but I can hit paper plates with it at 15 yds and thats all I need.

Going over 5 gr Unique gets me some leading. Going under 4.3 gr gets some cycling failures with the hi-power (haven't tried these in the SR9 - but I bet the problem is worse).

I drop them into a bucket of water, and I think it helps accuracy and leading (but this is an impression, not a fact).

MeestaSparkle
01-28-2008, 05:07 PM
CBR, I am using titegroup, not for any particular reason other than it was on sale and uses frugal loads. It smokes a lot though, at least in combination with these bullets, which I've heard other's complain about with titegroup. Started at 3.7 grs and worked up to 4.4. Gives acceptable accuracy for hitting steel plates (8") at 20 or so yards, which is all I've used them for so far.

cbr
02-01-2008, 01:07 PM
Ok, I finally got around to shooting some of these bullets in my M&P 9 today. I loaded them ot 1.075, just enough to get the lube groove inside the case. I started with 3.4 grains of titebroup, but it was just barely ejecting the empty cases. I tried 3.6 grains of titegroup and was getting about 2 inch groups at 15 yards, very accurate, but also get a little leading. I tried them with 4.1 grains of AA #2 and got even more leading, I guess I will try unique next, since I have a couple pounds of it. My barrel slugged .355, and Im using the bullets as they drop out of the mould, water dropped, tumble lubed with LLA, around .356 to .358, they seemed to vary in size. Should I size them to .356, or just shoot them like I am? They chamber and feed fine.

robertbank
02-01-2008, 02:38 PM
Where is the leading occuring? I am no fan of tumble lube and suspect the reason you are getting leading is either you don't have enough lube on the boolits or the lube just isn't doing it's job.

.356 would be the minimum I would size them. I get my best results at .357 in my 9MM guns. Are you using WW alloy? You shouldn't get any leading with the loads you are using IMHO.

Not sure Titegroup is the best powder for 9MM. From my experience Unique and Win 231 are better powders for the 9MM. I haven't used HS 6 but it is said to be very good as well in the 9MM.

Wrap a few strands of 100% copper Chor Boy pad around an old copper wire brush and the leading will come out very quickly.

Take Care

Bob

cbr
02-01-2008, 03:26 PM
Bob, I just tried some loads with 4.5 unique, and there was less leading, but still some. The leading starts near the center of the barrel, and gets worse toward the muzzle. Im using ww alloy with a very small amount of range lead and tin added. I dropped them in water from the mould. The pistol is pretty new, less than 150 rounds, I wonder if the barrel needs broken in? I will try pan lubing some and see what happens.

robertbank
02-01-2008, 06:17 PM
From the sounds of it your lube isn't doig the job. IF the leading was in the first 1" or so it usually is a sign of a to hard of a lube. If it is starting half way up your barrel and towards the muzzle it means your lube has been consumed. Do you have a RCBS or Lyman Lubricator? I would get one and a sizer die .356 or .357 is either buy a soft commercial lube or make Felix lube and use it instead and your leading problems will disappear and your accuracy will improve or at least not fall off as leading builds in the barrel. If you make your own Felix Lube try pouring it into a large Pyrex measuring cup and then simply pour it into your lubricator. When you need more I melt it in our microwave and pour what I need again.

I know some folks swear by the tumble lube. I don't frankly and use it only in very specific applications. The RCBS or Lyman lubricators go all the time on Ebay for less than knew, worth looking into.

Take Care

Bob

Harpman
02-01-2008, 08:15 PM
I just fired some of my new Lee 358-150, in my M&P 9mm, still more testing for sure, But, I used pure soft lead with some tin, maybe about a 20 to 1 mix, used Lee alox, group was excellent for first load and NO LEADING, this is alot softer than WW's, let alone water quenched..I also used N340 powder.
my reasoning behind softer is that using my BPCR I use 40 to 1 or 20 to 1, at about the same FPS, I realize the pressures may be different, But I thought I would try it anyway, plus I figured 22 bullets are usually pretty soft and I never seen a 22 lead a barrel..so I made my start point with the soft lead.

lv2tinker
02-03-2008, 11:22 AM
CBR
I use 4.3 gr WSF behind a LEE TL356-124-TC in my CZ's, 1.050 OAL gives me 1029 fps Avg.
Also used 4.3 gr Unique, 1.050 OAL = 1054 fps
W-231 and Tight Group were to smokey, plus they leaded my bore.
Cheers

cbr
02-03-2008, 02:26 PM
Thanks for all the replys! I shot quite a few jacketed rounds saturday, cleaned really well, and then polished my bore with flitz. Went back to shooting some lead with with 4.5 grains of unique. The leading was even less, but still a little near the muzzle end. I am still just using LLA. Im hoping these will start working once the barrel gets broke in. Im trying to do this cast bullet stuff on a budget, dont really want to have to buy a lubrisizer (My wife's not real understanding about "gun stuff"). Im gonna try to shoot some of these out of one of my brother's 9mm's this week to see if they work in other pistols, the M&P is the only 9 I own, other than a tiny Kahr 9mm with the poly rifleing and a really rough bore, it hates lead, but shoots jacketed pretty well.

Cloudpeak
02-03-2008, 02:43 PM
The inside of the barrel and the feed ramp on my M&P 9mm were pretty rough right out of the box. It looked like these surfaces were coated with the same material as the outside of the barrel and the slide. Any other firearm I've owned had a shiny bore when new. The M&P was different. I also felt differences in resistance as I was shoving a tight patch through the barrel which was something new. Like the bore isn't the same diameter all the way through?

I've run a lot of lead down the bore and clean it regularly and even took a couple of passes through the bore with some highly used gray Scotchbrite pad. The bore is now shiny and accuracy has improved. The ramp polished up through shooting and cleaning. I'm shooting the 124 gr. RN tumble lube Lee bullet sized to .357. I've tried Clays and W231 so far but haven't come up with a load that groups as well as the WWB 115 gr load.

My most accurate load was with bullets lubed with just Johnson Paste wax. Man, did it leave some leading!

Cloudpeak

robertbank
02-03-2008, 04:11 PM
Well we all can understand budget contraints. I suggest you go with Lee Liquid Alox and double coat your bullets. I would also favour lower velocity loads. Between the two you should eliminate the remaining leading problems.

When you can, invest in a Lubricator.

Incidently I really can't recomend Felix lube highly enough. Stuff just does the job it is supposed to and is inexpensive to make.

Take Care

Bob

cbr
02-08-2008, 10:08 PM
Ok, Im getting frustrated with this pistol. I tried pan lubing some today with some lube I made a while back. Cant remember exactly what was in it, but it consisted of vasoline, parifin, and moly grease. Better, but still some leading near the muzzle. I reduced my loads to 4.2 grains of unique and still some leading near the muzzle. If I go any lower the slide wont always lock back on an empty mag. I don't know what else to try.

oso
02-08-2008, 11:58 PM
You might want to change the focus of your frustration from the pistol to the bullet. I prefer heavier bullets (138 - 156 gr) and slower powder (HS-6) for accuracy and reliable cycling without leading (lower velocities.)

Harpman
02-09-2008, 12:06 AM
I second the idea of the bullet...I could not no way get a 356 bullet to shoot in my M&P9 without leading, soon as I went to 358, problem was solved, same in my BPCR, I just could'nt get same diameter or .001 smaller to bump like every one says they do, soon as I went to .002 larger, problems were solved.

robertbank
02-09-2008, 10:36 AM
Your lube isn't doing the job. Sorry. If your troubles were with your bullet diameter then you would normally see leading either at the muzzle or throughout the barrel. appears to me your lube is gone before the bullet gets to the end of the barrel hence the leading. Your load is not the problem. 4.2 gr of Unique is within a tenth of a grain of what I use for IDPA loads and experience no leading in any of my guns including the M&P, CZ, Tanfoglio, ans STI.
Try to pick up a used lubricator on Ebay. They go cheap enough and you will be well on your way. Either buy or make your own lube and go from there. My M&P does not lead at all and you shouldn't experience any leading either.

Harpman: 9MM barrels are normally ,355. Nobody I know of suggest you size your bullets .001 smaller, expecting obuteration to seal the barrel. At least .001 over barrel diameter is the recomendation of most. I size to .357 for my 9MM bullets for that reason. If you are at .358 and getting good results all the better.

9.3X62AL
02-09-2008, 11:14 AM
Bob--

I'ver slugged close to 100 different 9mm barrels, and I think 5 or 6 were actually at "spec" .355". The majority were .356"--more than a few were .357"--and a couple were .358". Both were Beretta 92-series.

Another complicating factor in 9mm is the loose radial clearances of the chambers and wide throat dimensions--those Berettas had .359" throats. My 2 SIG-Sauer 9guns both have almost .357" throats and .356" grooves. They get fairly hard 92-6-2 alloy and Javelina Alox lube, and .357" sizing.

Add on the fast rifling twist most 9mm's use (1-10" or 4 turns/meter), what you dealing with is a rifle caliber--so you must do rifle things to get them to act right. We respond to wide throats and loose case necks in rifles with fatter boolits--do so in 9mm as well.

Treat 9mm--357 SIG--40 S&W--and 10mm like rifles. The 9mm is worst of the lot due to wide dimensional tolerances, but all are quirky and can be a challenge to the cast boolit shooter.

One other caveat if you shoot jacketed bullets in your 9mm--BE SURE TO GET ALL THE COPPER FOULING OUT OF THAT BARREL. Get the Chore Boy on the lead, but follow up with some Sweet's 7.62 or other ammonia-based copper dissolver. I'll bet you'll get some robin-egg blue on the patches, indicating copper fouling. Don't leave the Sweet's in place for more than 10 minutes before patching it out and following with Hoppe's or CLP. Those rough-finish service-grade barrels will mine copper like nobody's business.

Harpman
02-09-2008, 11:44 AM
this is great info here.....In my post I was referring to the common knowledge that I read, that soft lead bumps up to fill the rifling, I didnt mean it to sound like a 9mm specific thing......this is my first experience with 9mm also...funny how all these calibers and jumping from psitol to rifle etc, smokeless, black, all require their own techniques.....nothing is "cast in stone"

robertbank
02-09-2008, 01:20 PM
"nothing is "cast is stone" "

You got that right. This hobby will drive you nuts if you aren't already.:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

Cloudpeak
02-09-2008, 01:38 PM
My M&P 9mm slugs .3555. The most accurate loads in this gun, so far, have been WWB clad 115 gr. rounds. The bullets mike .355. I'm still trying to come up with a consistantly accurate load with the 124 Lee TL RN bullet.

For my last project, I water dropped these bullets and sized them to .357-.358 and am going to lube some with LLA and some with JPW. My most accurate load so far in this pistol with the Lee bullet has been 3.6 gr. of W231, lubed with JPW, with a COAL of 1.12 and it shot a group at 7 yards of .65". I shot the same size group offhand at 7 yards with the WWB ammo. The JPW load left a pretty gunky bore but maybe the same bullet sized a bit larger will help.

Cloudpeak

robertbank
02-09-2008, 02:51 PM
Hi
I have been working with Lyman's 356402 bullet in my M&P. Sized to .357 accuracy appears accurate enough but it has been to cold to realy sit down with a rest to test. 4.1 gr Win 231 makes IDPA PF which is all I want at this point. I use Felix lube which is a soft lube. No leading in my gun.

Take Care

Bob

cbr
02-10-2008, 03:14 PM
Bob, I got a used lube sizer on the way! Kind of been wanting one anyway, so this gave me an excuse to take the plunge. Any recomendations on lube other than felix lube. I might try to make some felix lube in the future, but might take me a while to come up with the ingredients. Would the traditional NRA lube work well in 9mm? I saw some pretty good deals on lube on ebay, jakes lube I think it was.

robertbank
02-10-2008, 04:16 PM
Great. You are on your way. I used Jake's Lube before I started making Felix Lube. Get the softer version that does not need a heater. Worked well for me. Jakes are really good to deal with. Highly recomend.

That said get the ingrediants for Felix lube. Stuff really works.

You are about to end your leading problems.

Take Care

Bob