What is too hard?

[3jimbo3]

I am just wondering…… just how hard is too hard….

I have a good supply of wheel weights. I very carefully seperate the good from the bad, knock the dirt and dust off, toss in the kettle and melt. I then clean, clean, flux, clean, flux, clean, and well you get the picture. Once everything is good and clean I pour into ingots. It may sit there quiet some time before I actually cast with it. When I do my casting I use my bottom pour pot and use a double cavity mold and I water quinch my castings.

With all this being said, a member here on the forum graciously tested these for hardness for me and they came out in the mid to high twenties. I shoot these in my Springfield and Ruger 9mm's. So far the Springfield has had no problems but the Ruger is bad to lead the barrel. I was using liquid alox for lube, but I have been experimenting with different recipes of lube and doing some pan lubing.

I would figure the harder the casting the better, but this does not seem to be the case here.

My main question is……. will this hurt my guns?
The next question is how do I lower the hardness? I have some pure lead that is really soft but I have no idea how much to mix in with my wheel weights.

Anyone have any ideas?

Also does anyone have a good recomendation for a "cookie cutter" for 9mm's? The way I'm doing it is very time consuming.

[dubber123]

Air cooled WW's run about 14bhn for me, and that is the easiest way for you to go softer. I'd slug the Ruger, I am betting on undersized boolits causing the leading. I have a few 9's, and use .358" to .359" in all. I am not an Alox fan, but use whatever works for you. The quenched boolits won't hurt your gun a bit, they are still way softer than jacketed.

[Cherokee]

What came out in the high twenties - the ingots or the cast boolits ? Assuming its the boolits, stop water quinching for the 9mm and see what happens. Or, you could try a larger size for the 9mm if that's an option for you. If quinching works for the Springfield, why change ?

[3jimbo3]

Air cooled WW's run about 14bhn for me, and that is the easiest way for you to go softer. I'd slug the Ruger, I am betting on undersized boolits causing the leading. I have a few 9's, and use .358" to .359" in all. I am not an Alox fan, but use whatever works for you. The quenched boolits won't hurt your gun a bit, they are still way softer than jacketed.

The alox works pretty good on ant hills. Hey, I had to use it for something.

The next run I cast I plan to air cool, just to see how they do. I may end up changing how I cast.

I use the .358 as well.

[3jimbo3]

What came out in the high twenties - the ingots or the cast boolits ? Assuming its the boolits, stop water quinching for the 9mm and see what happens. Or, you could try a larger size for the 9mm if that's an option for you. If quinching works for the Springfield, why change ?

Yes it was the boolits, sorry, didn't make that part very clear. I use .358 now, I might try the next size up just to see if it reduces any of the leading……. or trade for another Springfield.

[bangerjim]

Too hard can lead to leading big-time. So can too soft.

Stop water dropping. For what you are doing, 10-12 is more than sufficient. COWW's have enough Sb to see a definite increase in hardness which you really do not want. COWW's are more than hard enough. I PC all my slugs which pretty much eliminates the worry about hardness.......you can shoot softer lead and stretch your expensive alloys. You might want to seriously want to look into that. And PC ELIMINATES LEADING!

What happens is you do not get expansion of the base (obsturation) of the boolit to form a gas seal. You need softer lead to prevent that. In high vel rifles or mags you will need 14 or higher and you GC the slug.

Get a hardness tester and do not rely on others to do your testing. You can use a set of artist pencils as a poor man's tester. Do a search on here for the chart and how-to.

have fun!

bangerjim

[3jimbo3]

thanks bangerjim, I will give the air cooling a try. I have the pencil testing trick printed off here somewhere, I just didn't know how well that works. Is it accurate? Somewhat?

[BAGTIC]

Can't get much cheaper than straight WW. If hardened WW are leading it is almost certain it is because they are undersize. Use a big enough bullet to start with and you won't need to worry about bullet expansion to produce obturation.

[runfiverun]

it's fairly accurate because the results are repeatable.
the actual bhn doesn't much matter, if it nicks with a number 2 every time it's close enough.

a bhn of 22 wouldn't lead your barrel any more than a bhn of 12 will what is happening is you got gas blowing past the harder boolits in the ruger.
the question is why?
diameter, throat design, oversized chamber, oversized barrel?
figure out what's different between it and the springfield and you'll have your answer as to why only the one gun is leading.

[DrCaveman]

Yes it was the boolits, sorry, didn't make that part very clear. I use .358 now, I might try the next size up just to see if it reduces any of the leading……. or trade for another Springfield.

So is .358" the diameter of your sizing die, or the measured diameter of your boolits? If it is the marketed diameter of your mold, dont be so sure without measuring with a micrometer.

Obvious question: have you slugged the ruger bore and throat? Seems to probably be bigger than the spfld. Most likely will need different loads for the 2 guns for optimal function & accuracy

[44man]

Bet it is size but a way oversize boolit can also lead the bore. Alox leads my bores no matter what alloy. Stuff was made to spray under fenders and it even fails to prevent rust, ask anyone from Ohio or PA. Why someone decided it was a boolit lube means he had his head where the sun don't shine. Add stuff to it and find the other stuff is the lube and keeps Alox from burning too fast. Hard boolits do not cause leading unless they don't fit. Soft will skid and open gas channels.

[OuchHot!]

You could do a quick test by annealing some of your water dropped boolits (if they have no been lubed). At the end of the day a hardness testing helps. The pencil method (sticky at top) works well if you don't want to spend money. A 22bhn water quenched boolit will age soften slowly but only maybe 4-5 bhn. You got good advice above....size is important.

[NuJudge]

If your bullets are big enough, bore relatively smooth, and a decent lube, you should not get Leading. I try to get mine as hard as I can.

[MtGun44]

Never worry about hardness, just air cooled wwts (10-12 BHN) or range scrap (~8 BHN) for all
applications, never any leading.

Hardness is WAY overrated, to the point of silliness, really.

Bill

[shoot-n-lead]

never worry about hardness, just air cooled wwts (10-12 bhn) or range scrap (~8 bhn) for all
applications, never any leading.

Hardness is way overrated, to the point of silliness, really.

Bill

Bingo!

[hermans]

Never worry about hardness, just air cooled wwts (10-12 BHN) or range scrap (~8 BHN) for all
applications, never any leading.

Hardness is WAY overrated, to the point of silliness, really.

Bill

I totally agree....proper fit is king!

[44man]

I have always believed pure lead is best for hunting, I love ML's. However smokeless is not kind to that soft. I shoot mostly full hunting loads all the time so there is no way I can shoot 8 BHN.
Add enough tin and maybe but that raises cost.
You CAN shoot soft without leading, but accuracy is why I shoot what I do. My boolits for revolvers run 20 to 22 BHN and it is working in the 30-30 Marlin but might be too hard for deer. Tried 75% WW and 25% pure, seems to shoot good. As boolits get softer I get a lot more fliers that I don't want for hunting.
I question shooting soft, if you can even shoot those soft wad cutters from a .38 without leading the frame and cylinder fronts, you have pixie dust.
You should recover boolits to read skid marks and harden slowly until the marks on the base are no larger then rifling in the gun, you can stop there. Even air cooled WW's are not accurate in my revolvers.
You are the guy to test in your gun. I will stay with hard enough to equal jacketed bullets.

[3jimbo3]

These boolits fly really well, the only problem I have is the leading with the Ruger. I may try replacing the barrel, I have a couple extra from a gun show or two I can use. I am also changing the way I size and lube. This weekend I plan to slug the barrels of both guns, and the extra barrels to see what size I come up with. I will then size accordingly and try again. Thank you all for your comments and input on the matter. I can use all the help you can give.

[44man]

Never found a Ruger that will not shoot cast. Most of my guns never seen jacketed at all. You are looking for something that is not there. Go back to your loading bench.

[3jimbo3]

This is the only one I have ever had any trouble with. I have done everything except to use an over sized boolit. I'm going to slug and recheck the size and over size a few and try that.

[DeanWinchester]

Never worry about hardness, just air cooled wwts (10-12 BHN) or range scrap (~8 BHN) for all
applications, never any leading.

Hardness is WAY overrated, to the point of silliness, really.

Bill


Yessir.

I used to worry about it. Now I think the other way around and have better luck with most things.

Now I try to run as soft a boolit as I can and still have accuracy and no leading. Cuz honestly, if it's accurate and does not lead, why wouldn't you want a boolit that would expand?